Template talk:Curlingbox

 Done Can there be a example of how this template is used placed here? I can't seem to get the team names in the right places. --Coppercanuck (talk) 21:18, 20 June 2008 (UTC)

Using the curling box in an article

Q: Can you explain for me why it would be necessary to place it on an article before the match has been played?

A: Article pages are often created before the event begins. It will list the date of an event, prize money available, location of the event, teams participating. When a draw is set we often develop the pages to include that information whether it is through draw bracket or the curling box. When an event begins the information come frequent and quickly, so it's important to have the page prepared with tables, boxes, brackets etc... We try to keep the pages updated as often and frequent as possible, because a number of people use wikipedia to view scoring information, standings, team information, player bios etc. For example: Event websites can often become over capacitated with visitors during a final, and the website goes down. If an editor is at the event live, or viewing the event on television, they can post live scores end by end, for those outside of the viewing area. This is a rare occurrence, but from time to time it happens.

Each page is set up like so:

Results

All times local (Eastern Time Zone) (Time Zone is mentioned)

Draw 1

Friday, September 28, 10:30 pm (date and time)

Sheet A	1	2	3	4	5	6	7	8	9	10	Final
Crystal Webster	0	0	0	0	0	0	0	0	0	0	0
Kerry Galusha	0	0	0	0	0	0	0	0	0	0	0

The first box above is an example of a WTC setup, sometimes the players' names receive [ ] around to direct to bio.
The box below is how the National championships are set up.

Friday, September 28, 10:30 pm

Sheet A	1	2	3	4	5	6	7	8	9	10	Final
Nova Scotia (Arsenault)	0	0	0	0	0	0	0	0	0	0	0
Quebec (Larouche)	0	0	0	0	0	0	0	0	0	0	0

When I began with the WP:CURLING pages were set up with curling boxes set up as so:

Friday, September 28, 10:30 pm

Sheet A	1	2	3	4	5	6	7	8	9	10	Final
Nova Scotia (Arsenault)	0	0	0	0	0	0	0	0	0	0	0
Quebec (Larouche)	0	0	0	0	0	0	0	0	0	0	0

This is not a live database for end by end coverage. I see nothing wrong with having the zeros present. I find it easier to edit with the zeros in place. User Prayerfortheworld wants an empty box so not to confuse people as to whether the game has been played or not. All of the information is available, date, time and time zone. If people can navigate to wikipedia they are obviously literate and can read English (this is English wikipedia) so what is confusing if you can read and understand English? (If you can't read or understand English, chances are you'll be using which ever Wikipedia is available in your language).

Friday, September 28, 10:30 pm

Sheet A	1	2	3	4	5	6	7	8	9	10	Final
Nova Scotia (Arsenault)											0
Quebec (Larouche)											0

This is Prayerfortheworld preference. I personally don't think it matters whether it has zeros in it or not. Whether a game is 8 or 10 ends, there is no ties in curling, someone wins, eventually a number is going to show up and there will be a score. In most cases if it was 0-0 after 11 ends it would go to 12 and then a draw for the win, if not a draw for the win after 11. If you can read the date, time and time zone you will know the game has either been played or not yet. It's strictly personal preference

Hopefully this is explanation enough for you! Sirrussellott (talk) 03:07, 29 September 2012 (UTC)

For what it is worth I second the motion to keep the zeroes in. It is much easier for editing, in addition with the dates and times in place it is generally hard to mistake that the game has been played. If you add the current sports event, information likely to change rapidly template it is also harder for readers to mistake that the information is absolute. Therefore, I propose we maintain keeping the zeroes for editing purposes. Krazytea(talk) 05:30, 29 September 2012 (UTC)

Thanks for that explanation. The intention is that the discussion will take place between the parties in dispute, and I will remain as far as possible in the background. However, as an outside observer, it may be worth my saying that from that explanation what I am hearing is: "This is easier for editing". What I am not hearing is why the method makes it easier for the reader. What I am also seeing is an assumption being made that the reader understands that the zeroes do not represent a score because anyone who knows the sport will understand that. I don't know the sport, so it looks to me like there was no score, and it was a draw. It may be a bit early for me to make suggestions, but I don't want to drag this out for a long time if we can get to a resolution quickly - is there a way of placing the template on the page that does not give the appearance that a match has taken place, and yet is also easy to edit. It may be that the template itself needs some adjusting. SilkTork ^{✔Tea time} 15:30, 29 September 2012 (UTC)

To me it sounds like a simple notification as to the games progress. See example below.

Sheet A (Not Started)	1	2	3	4	5	6	7	8	9	10	Final
Crystal Webster	0	0	0	0	0	0	0	0	0	0	0
Kerry Galusha	0	0	0	0	0	0	0	0	0	0	0

Sheet A (Complete)	1	2	3	4	5	6	7	8	9	10	Final
Crystal Webster	1	0	1	0	2	0	1	0	1	0	6
Kerry Galusha	0	1	0	1	0	1	0	3	0	1	7

Simple solution is adding game status in brackets next to the sheet number or letter. Sirrussellott (talk) 16:07, 29 September 2012 (UTC)

In regards to the Q/A section of this discussion thread, I agree that it's reasonable to create article pages for events before the events begin. I'm hesitant to agree with adding empty tables and curlingboxes to articles unless they have relevant information in them (i.e. team/country names, etc). I feel that it's perfectly reasonable to place brackets and curlingboxes in articles as soon as the draws are released, and team listings and standings as soon as team lists are released, but until then, I would disagree that their inclusion is necessary in an article.

Regarding an editor's preference of having/not having zeroes in the curlingboxes, I personally find it much easier to edit without the zeroes in the curlingboxes, but I don't feel that preference should matter in this discussion as much as presentation should. I agree that assuming a reader's knowledge of the meaning of the zeroes and their implications is not exactly favorable. I think Sirrussellott fairly represented part of my point of view on the curlingboxes, since I do feel that filling curlingboxes with zeroes could provide the illusion that a game is over. However, I would venture to add that the zeroes can be misinforming, since the zeroes in an end column would denote a blank end, and it might be a little misleading if the meaning of the zeroes is not immediately apparent. I've felt that an empty curlingbox (with the exception of the zeroes in the final column) is the clearest representation of a game that has not started.

In terms of the status in the sheet parameter, I'm not all for it, since I don't think it's the cleanest way to present information. It's also just another bit of information that a reader needs to process. Please don't interpret my opinion as a refusal to compromise; I'm just thinking that there may be a better way to present the information. Please let me know if I can clarify anything. Thanks! Prayerfortheworld (talk) 22:36, 30 September 2012 (UTC)

Extended content

This is why there is always disagreements. You disagree with me all of the time because it's not what you want. A suggestion is made, which according to the mediator ( SilkTork )'s talk page, they find it to be a reasonable compromise, to which you come here, shoot down my suggestion and fail to put forward any suggestion, recommendation or example of what you think would be best. I put forward a lengthy discussion, and after feedback from SilkTork, come up with a way to make it work. You come here and really offer nothing, because again it's not what you want. As I mentioned to you before this is a collaborative, group and voluntary effort. You can't be the sole decision maker about everything. If you can't learn to work with others, then perhaps this isn't the right place for you to be! Sirrussellott (talk) 19:17, 1 October 2012 (UTC) Please comment on content, not on the contributor. This is an informal warning as you don't appear to be aware of Wikipedia:No personal attacks. Further personal comments will be met with formal warnings. SilkTork ✔Tea time 22:24, 1 October 2012 (UTC)

Comment by sock of Sirrussellott

I joined the WP:CURLING a few months ago and have contributed a few times with editing, unfortunately not under my user name (I'm beginning to see why it's important to log in, so I will try my best to do so). I thought I would contribute to this thread and hopefully move things along. I see this whole discussion as a conflict between two users. I personally don't see this discussion as an issue about the curling box, but more of a personal issue between the two users. I have actually seen disputes between the two users going on since I joined the group. It's rather unfortunate that this is a personal matter vs. a template matter. Having given my perspective as an outsider of what I see happening, I'm going to comment on the use of the curling box. I have used the curling box a couple of times, and I'm going to have to agree with users Krazytea and Sirrussellott about the use of zeros in the box. It is a lot easier to edit the game information having the zeros in the box. Having read the information written in this section I would agree with the other users that; the date and time is a clear indicator of when the game is to be played. I also agree that the purpose of the articles are to provide the history of the event, and not to use wikipedia as a live end-by-end score coverage. I believe SilkTork was correct mentioning tweaking the template. I thought the suggestion given was a good one, as it was simple. It seems to me Prayerfortheworld is concerned about outsiders and confusion, I personally don't see an issue with that extra piece of information, it gets the message across. When I look at the template page, specifically the CurlingboxCC template, that template is far more confusing to someone who wouldn't understand the use, vs. adding a brackets to the Curlingbox template stating the game status. That's my view point on this matter, hopefully it helps. I also hope to be able to contribute more often! Thanks Tincloth (talk) 14:00, 7 October 2012 (UTC)

Thanks for your input! Yes, I think it did start as an issue over format, but unfortunately it expanded outside of that... I don't mean to say the same thing over and over again, but I just feel that it might not be the best to consider editing preferences as the main issue. I do understand how it could be easier for editors to edit with zeroes, but I personally find it easier to edit in another manner, and so I don't think this should be the main focus of the conversation. I do very much appreciate your opinion, though. As for the suggestion, I just feel that there's a way to make clear the distinction between a game not yet played and a completed game without the extra parameter. This would be to leave the curlingboxes of games not yet played empty, which, I feel, makes an immediate distinction between those curlingboxes of completed games (which will be full). As a reader, I'd find this to be the most direct distinction. But, my opinion is only an opinion, so if there is no other option and the extra parameter must be included, then I will acquiesce. Again, thanks for your opinion! and happy editing!

As a sidenote, when you spoke of the {{CurlingboxCC}} template, were there any issues with the template? I adjusted the code of this template to make the CurlingboxCC template, and I do realize it's a bit convoluted, so if there's any issues I can address, please let me know. I'll be happy to help. Prayerfortheworld (talk) 23:11, 7 October 2012 (UTC)