User:Andrew Lancaster/Goths

Lead drafting

version 18 March 2021	version 2 Apr 2021	AL drafting after RFCs	Krakkos drafting after RFCs
Lead The Goths (Gothic: 𐌲𐌿𐍄𐌸𐌹𐌿𐌳𐌰, romanized: Gutþiuda; Latin: Gothi) were a Germanic people who played a major role in the fall of the Western Roman Empire and the emergence of Medieval Europe. They were first definitely reported by Graeco-Roman authors in the 3rd century AD, living north of the Danube in what is now Ukraine, Moldova and Romania. Later, many moved into the Roman Empire, or settled west of the Carpathians near what is now Hungary. A people called the Gutones—possibly early Goths—are documented living near the lower Vistula River in the 1st century, where they are associated with the archaeological Wielbark culture. In his book Getica, the Gothic historian Jordanes claimed that the Goths originated in southern Scandinavia more than 1,000 years earlier, but his reliability is disputed. The Wielbark culture expanded southwards towards the Black Sea, where by the late 3rd century it contributed to the formation of the Chernyakhov culture, which is associated with the Goths who were in frequent conflict and contact with the Roman Empire. By the 4th century at the latest, several groups were distinguishable, among whom the Thervingi and Greuthungi were the most powerful. During this time, Ulfilas began the conversion of Goths to Arianism. In the late 4th century, the lands of the Goths were invaded from the east by the Huns. In the aftermath of this event, several groups of Goths came under Hunnic domination, while others migrated further west or sought refuge inside the Roman Empire. Goths who entered the Empire by crossing the Danube inflicted a devastating defeat upon the Romans at the Battle of Adrianople in 378. These Goths would form the Visigoths, and under their king Alaric I they began a long migration, eventually establishing a Visigothic Kingdom in Spain at Toledo. Meanwhile, Goths under Hunnic rule gained their independence in the 5th century, most importantly the Ostrogoths. Under their king Theodoric the Great, these Goths established an Ostrogothic Kingdom in Italy at Ravenna. The Ostrogothic Kingdom was destroyed by the Eastern Roman Empire in the 6th century, while the Visigothic Kingdom was conquered by the Umayyad Caliphate in the early 8th century. Remnants of Gothic communities in the Crimea, known as the Crimean Goths, lingered on for several centuries, although Goths would eventually cease to exist as a distinct people. References References 1. Heather 2012, p. 623. "Goths, a Germanic people, who, according to Jordanes' Getica, originated in Scandinavia. The Cernjachov culture of the later 3rd and 4th cents. AD beside the Black Sea, and the Polish and Byelorussian Wielbark cultures of the 1st–3rd. cents. ad, provide evidence of a Gothic migration down the Vistula to the Black Sea, but no clear trail leads to Scandinavia." 2. Heather 2018, p. 673. "Goths, a Germanic tribe whose name means 'the people', first attested immediately south of the Baltic Sea in the first two centuries." 3. Pritsak 2005. 4. Heather 2018, p. 673. 5. Heather 2012, p. 623.	Lead The Goths (Gothic: 𐌲𐌿𐍄𐌸𐌹𐌿𐌳𐌰, romanized: Gutþiuda; Latin: Gothi) were a Germanic people who played a major role in the fall of the Western Roman Empire and the emergence of Medieval Europe. In his book Getica (c. 551), the Gothic historian Jordanes writes that the Goths originated in southern Scandinavia, but the accuracy of this account is unclear. A people called the Gutones—possibly early Goths—are documented living near the lower Vistula River in the 1st century, where they are associated with the archaeological Wielbark culture. From the 2nd century, the Wielbark culture expanded southwards towards the Black Sea in what has been associated with Gothic migration, and by the late 3rd century it contributed to the formation of the Chernyakhov culture. By the 4th century at the latest, several Gothic groups were distinguishable, among whom the Thervingi and Greuthungi were the most powerful. During this time, Ulfilas began the conversion of Goths to Arianism. In the late 4th century, the lands of the Goths were invaded from the east by the Huns. In the aftermath of this event, several groups of Goths came under Hunnic domination, while others migrated further west or sought refuge inside the Roman Empire. Goths who entered the Empire by crossing the Danube inflicted a devastating defeat upon the Romans at the Battle of Adrianople in 378. These Goths would form the Visigoths, and under their king Alaric I they began a long migration, eventually establishing a Visigothic Kingdom in Spain at Toledo. Meanwhile, Goths under Hunnic rule gained their independence in the 5th century, most importantly the Ostrogoths. Under their king Theodoric the Great, these Goths established an Ostrogothic Kingdom in Italy at Ravenna. The Ostrogothic Kingdom was destroyed by the Eastern Roman Empire in the 6th century, while the Visigothic Kingdom was conquered by the Umayyad Caliphate in the early 8th century. Remnants of Gothic communities in the Crimea, known as the Crimean Goths, lingered on for several centuries, although Goths would eventually cease to exist as a distinct people. References References 1. Heather 2012, p. 623. "Goths, a Germanic people, who, according to Jordanes' Getica, originated in Scandinavia. The Cernjachov culture of the later 3rd and 4th cents. AD beside the Black Sea, and the Polish and Byelorussian Wielbark cultures of the 1st–3rd. cents. ad, provide evidence of a Gothic migration down the Vistula to the Black Sea, but no clear trail leads to Scandinavia." 2. Heather 2018, p. 673. "a Germanic tribe whose name means 'the people', first attested immediately south of the Baltic Sea in the first two centuries." 3. Pritsak 2005. 4. Heather 2018, p. 673. 5. Heather 2012, p. 623.	Lead The Goths (Gothic: 𐌲𐌿𐍄𐌸𐌹𐌿𐌳𐌰, romanized: Gutþiuda; Latin: Gothi) were a Germanic people who played a major role in the fall of the Western Roman Empire and the emergence of Medieval Europe, particularly in Italy, France and Spain. They were first reported by Graeco-Roman authors in the 3rd century AD, living north of the Danube in what is now Ukraine, Moldova and Romania. These Goths conducted raids into Roman territory, and large numbers of them joined the Roman military. In the late 4th century, the lands of the Goths were invaded from the east by the Huns. In the aftermath of this event, many Goths came under Hunnic domination and became one of the elements with the multiethnic empire of Attila which established itself on the Middle Danube on the Roman frontier. Large numbers of Goths also sought refuge inside the Roman Empire, significantly affecting the course of Roman history. After crossing the Lower Danube a large group of armed refugees inflicted a devastating defeat upon the Romans at the Battle of Adrianople in 378. In the following generation, a large group of these Goths, now established within Rome and its military, came into conflict with the imperial government under the command of Alaric I. Failing to find a peaceful agreement, they began a long migration within the empire, eventually establishing the Visigothic Kingdom in southwestern France, which later shifted to Spain and was long ruled from Toledo. Meanwhile, Goths under Hunnic rule gained their independence in the 5th century, most importantly the Ostrogoths. Under their king Theodoric the Great, these Goths established an Ostrogothic Kingdom in Italy at Ravenna. The Ostrogothic Kingdom was destroyed by the Eastern Roman Empire in the 6th century, while the Visigothic Kingdom was conquered by the Umayyad Caliphate in the early 8th century. Remnants of Gothic communities in the Crimea, known as the Crimean Goths, reportedly lingered on for several centuries. References	Lead The Goths (Gothic: 𐌲𐌿𐍄𐌸𐌹𐌿𐌳𐌰, romanized: Gutþiuda; Latin: Gothi) were a Germanic people who played a major role in the fall of the Western Roman Empire and the emergence of Medieval Europe. Goths have been associated with the Wielbark culture and the Gutones of 1st and 2nd century Poland. They were part of the Chernyakhov culture, which flourished throughout large parts of modern-day Romania, Moldova and Ukraine during the 3rd and 4th centuries. During this time, Gothic groups such as the Thervingi and Greuthungi were in frequent contact with the Roman Empire, and Ulfilas began the conversion of Goths to Arianism. In the late 4th century, the lands of the Goths were invaded from the east by the Huns. Several Gothic groups subsequently came under Hunnic domination, while others migrated further west or sought refuge inside the Roman Empire. Goths who entered the Empire by crossing the Danube inflicted a devastating defeat upon the Romans at the Battle of Adrianople in 378. These Goths contributed to the formation of the Visigoths, who under their king Alaric I they began a long migration, eventually establishing a Visigothic Kingdom in Spain at Toledo. Meanwhile, Goths under Hunnic rule gained their independence in the 5th century, most importantly the Ostrogoths. Under their king Theodoric the Great, these Goths established an Ostrogothic Kingdom in Italy at Ravenna. The Ostrogothic Kingdom was destroyed by the Eastern Roman Empire in the 6th century, while the Visigothic Kingdom was conquered by the Umayyad Caliphate in the early 8th century. Remnants of Gothic communities in the Crimea, known as the Crimean Goths, lingered on for several centuries. References References 1. Heather 2012, p. 623. "Goths, a Germanic people, who, according to Jordanes' Getica, originated in Scandinavia. The Cernjachov culture of the later 3rd and 4th cents. AD beside the Black Sea, and the Polish and Byelorussian Wielbark cultures of the 1st–3rd. cents. ad, provide evidence of a Gothic migration down the Vistula to the Black Sea, but no clear trail leads to Scandinavia." 2. Heather 2018, p. 673. "a Germanic tribe whose name means 'the people', first attested immediately south of the Baltic Sea in the first two centuries." 3. Pritsak 2005. 4. Heather 2018, p. 673. 5. Heather 2012, p. 623.

Origins drafting

Aiming to replace 3 current sub-sections:

• 3.1 Prehistory
• 3.2 Early history
• 3.3 Movement towards the Black Sea

Started with material from article talk page: https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Talk:Goths#Sketches_for_an_origins_section Once again starting from the philosophy that avoiding turning uncertain things into certainties is more important than for example length. Note to self: it is also possible to start with Jordanes, then move on quickly.

playing around

Gothic origins [compare to drafts with sources below] There is no consensus among scholars about whether it is possible to reconstruct a history of the Goths before they began to be mentioned in Roman sources in the third century. However, many argue that evidence such as their language, name and culture links them to the region of the lower Vistula river, where 1st-century Roman writers mentioned the presence of the Gutones. Historian Peter Heather has argued that the similar names of the Goths and Gutones shouldn't be dismissed as an "accidental resemblance", because the names of at least two other 1st-century Germanic peoples from the Polish region, the Vandals and the Rugii, are also found south of the Carpathians by the 3rd century. The original source of the idea that the Goths came from the Vistula is the Getica, written by Jordanes in the 6th century. It gave a Gothic history going back about 2000 years before his own time, and beginning with two migrations. First, in about 1500 BCE they moved from "Scandza" (Scandinavia), to "Gothiscandza" near the Vistula. About five generations later they moved to the Black Sea region. While the migration stories continue to influence scholarly speculation, there is a consensus among Jordanes commentators that, even ignoring the chronology, his history can not be relied upon in any straightforward way. In recent generations, scholars have increasingly proposed that instead of large migrations, there were movements of small groups who managed to have an out-sized cultural influence on the peoples around them. In these scenarios, the sudden move of the Gutones, and their apparent increase in population and military power, are explained by the prestige of the Gothic name, which was carried by small numbers of people to new places, and came to be shared with people of diverse backgrounds. Herwig Wolfram proposed that Gothic kings had an unusual policy of accepting newcomers as Goths, which contributed to their success. Guy Halsall, more recently, has argued that Gothic leaders possibly gained importance by controlling positions along the Amber trade route which connected the Vistula region to the Black Sea. It is generally agreed that archaeological evidence indicates significant trading and cultural links between the lower Vistula and Black Sea regions, if not actual migration. In the period of their first historical appearances, the Goths were a significant, and apparently politically dominant, part of the Černjachov - Sântana de Mureș group of material cultures, which cover much of Ukraine, Moldava, and Rumania, north of the Black Sea. The Vistula Gutones are understood to be one of the groups within the contemporary but older Wielbark material culture around the lower Vistula. Similarly, while Jordanes-based proposals that the Gutones had Scandinavian origins are still common, small influential groups are proposed to have moved, rather than large populations. The Wielbark culture evolved mainly from previous local cultures, however archaeologists find evidence that the material cultures of Scandinavia and the Baltic islands are among those which influenced its formation. Linguists and philologists have also proposed that another form of the Goth or Gutones name can be found in Scandinavia, in the form of the Gutoi, reported by Ptolemy in the 2nd century, who are also associated with the medieval Geats and/or Gutes. It is therefore argued that the name may have been carried by a prestigious clan who became influential among the other peoples living near the lower Vistula. References		Gothic origins [short version, with a selection of citations, see collections of sources below] There is no consensus among scholars about whether it is possible to reconstruct a history of the Goths before they began to be mentioned in Roman sources in the 3rd century. However, most scholars believe that evidence such as their name, their Germanic language, and their archaeological material culture, indicates that the arrival of the Goths north of the Black Sea involved at least some movement of people from the region near the Polish Baltic sea coast, where 1st and 2nd century Roman writers mentioned the presence of a Germanic people called the Gutones. The original source for this migration is the Getica, written by Jordanes in the 6th century. While his migration stories continue to influence scholarly speculation, there is a consensus among Jordanes commentators that these are unreliable, meaning other evidence must be considered. Historian Peter Heather, for example, has argued that the similar names of the Goths and Gutones shouldn't be dismissed as an "accidental resemblance", because the names of at least two other 1st-century Germanic peoples from the Polish region, the Vandals and the Rugii, are also found south of the Carpathians by the 3rd century. Instead of a simple migration, scholars now believe that movements of small groups with cultural prestige and military influence could be enough to account for the way in which the Gutones seem to have moved from the Baltic to the Black Sea becoming the Goths, as known to history. Another historian, Guy Halsall has for example suggested that a Gothic military elite may have spread its power along the important trade route along which amber was traded. Archaeologically speaking, during the 3rd century the Goths were a significant, and increasingly powerful part of the Černjachov - Sântana de Mureș group of material cultures, which covered much of Ukraine, Moldava, and Rumania. This group displays evidence of links with the Wielbark culture around the lower Vistula region. Also believed to have been present in this group of cultures under Gothic dominance were Roman provincials, various Sarmatian and Dacian peoples, Carpi, Taifali and Bastarnae. References

Draft with excessive? sourcing

Although many scholars are sceptical about the possibilities of reconstructing the origins of the Goths before they begin to be mentioned in Roman sources in the third century, many others believe that evidence such as the language, name and culture of the Goths links them to the first century Gutones, mentioned by Roman writers as living on the lower Vistula river, now in Poland.

References

Historian Peter Heather argues that the name similarity is harder to dismiss as an accidental resemblance, when it is considered that the names of at least two other 1st-century Germanic peoples from the Polish region, the Vandals and the Rugii, are also found south of the Carpathians by the 3rd century.

References

Scholars do not all agree about whether the archaeological evidence can be used to prove there was a migration from the Vistula.

The Goths represent a part of the Černjachov - Sântana de Mureș group of material cultures, which included most of modern Ukraine, Moldava and Romania.

The Vistula Gutones are understood to be one of the groups within the contemporary but older Wielbark material culture around the lower Vistula. It is however generally agreed that these two material cultures show signs of trading and cultural links.

References

Jordanes in his 6th century Getica, claimed that the Goths migrated from Scandinavia to the Vistula, and then to the Black Sea region, about 2000 years before his time. Despite the unrealistic timeframe, these migration stories have traditionally been very influential. However, there is a consensus among commentators of this text that it is not a reliable source.

While Jordanes cannot be taken literally concerning the two migrations, many scholars propose that there were movements of small groups and cultural influences in the same direction, which is known to have been an important trade route.

According to these proposals, the name of the Gutones must have had a special prestige, leading to the transfer of their name to new amalgamations of peoples in the Black Sea region, who came to be dominated by the carriers of this tradition.

References

Linguists and philologists have furthermore proposed that another form of the Goth or Gutones name can be found in Scandinavia, in the form of the Gutoi, reported by Ptolemy in the 2nd century, who are also associated with the medieval Geats and/or Gutes. And while the Wielbark material culture appears to be mainly a local development, archaeologists confirm signs of Scandinavian influence within it.

References

Movement towards the Black sea

version 6 Apr 2021

drafting notes

Beginning in the middle of the 2nd century, the Wielbark culture shifted southeast towards the Black Sea.[94] During this time the Wielbark culture is believed to have ejected and partially absorbed peoples of the Przeworsk culture.[94] This was part of a wider southward movement of eastern Germanic tribes, which was probably caused by massive population growth.[94] As a result, other tribes were pushed towards the Roman Empire, contributing to the beginning of the Marcomannic Wars.[94] By 200 AD, Wielbark Goths were probably being recruited into the Roman army.[95] According to Jordanes, the Goths entered Oium, part of Scythia, under the king Filimer, where they defeated the Spali.[89][96] This migration account corresponds very well with the archaeological evidence.[38][97] The name Spali may mean "the giants" in Slavic, and the Spali were thus probably not Slavs.[98] In the early 3rd century AD, western Scythia was inhabited by the agricultural Zarubintsy culture and the nomadic Sarmatians.[99] Prior to the Sarmatians the area had been settled by the Bastarnae, who are believed to have carried out a migration similar to the Goths in the 3rd century BC.[100] Peter Heather considers the Filimer story to be at least partially derived from Gothic oral tradition.[101][102] The fact that the expanding Goths appear to have preserved their Gothic language during their migration, suggests that their movement involved a fairly large number of people.[103] By the mid-3rd century AD, the Wielbark culture had contributed to the formation of the Chernyakhov culture in Scythia.[104][105] This strikingly uniform culture came to stretch from the Danube in the west to the Don in the east.[106] It is believed to have been dominated by the Goths and other Germanic groups such as the Heruli.[107] It nevertheless also included Iranian, Dacian, Roman and probably Slavic elements as well.[106] References

Im Laufe des späteren 2. Jahrhunderts n. Chr. vergrößerte sich der Einflussbereich der Wielbark-Kultur, wohingegen jener der Przeworsk-Kultur zurückging. Über die Gründe ist sich die Archäologie nicht einig. Im 2. Jahrhundert n. Chr. dehnte sie sich nach Südosten aus, und gleichzeitig adaptierten Menschen westlich der Weichsel, die zuvor die Przeworsk-Kultur trugen, Gepflogenheiten aus der Wielbark-Kultur. Unklar ist, ob die Träger der Wielbark-Kultur jene der Przeworsk-Kultur verdrängten, oder ob sich religiöse Vorstellungen und Totenkult änderten.29 Zusammenfassend lässt sich sagen, dass die Expansion der Wielbark-Kultur Richtung Südosten sowohl die Folge, als auch der Grund der Markomannenkriege zwischen 166 und 180 gewesen sein könnte. Die möglichen Datierungsfenster sind jedoch zu unscharf, um Sicherheit zu gewinnen.30 References

Older Origins drafting, source collecting

NOTES. Each sentence or set of sentences is separated, and sources can be discussed for each of them. Please propose which sources might need to be added, or which things need sources. Remember the existing sources in the article can also be used, so emphasis in this is on possible new sources. For now the basic idea is going backwards in time (reverse chronological) from the Goths the Romans knew, to possible ancestors.

There is no consensus among scholars about whether the origins of the Goths can be traced in any significant way before their first appearances in classical records in the third century CE.

References

Most scholars however agree that the language, name and culture of the Goths indicates that they were strongly influenced by people who must have arrived from the direction of the lower Vistula river, which is now in Poland.

References

Contemporaries of the 3rd and 4th century Goths before they became entered the Roman empire, such as Dexippos, Ambrose (about 340–397), Orosius (about 375–420) and Jerome (about 347–420) categorized the Goths among the Scythians, peoples who had lived in the same steppe region, and equated them to the similar-sounding Getae, who had lived near the Lower Danube, at the western extent of Gothic habitation. Additionally, Ambrose began a tradition of equating the Scythians, especially his contemporaries the Goths, with the similar-sounding Old Testament Gog and Magog, who he understood to be barbarians who came from the extreme north, where there are islands. Much later, in the 6th century, Procopius asserted that the "Getic peoples", among whom he listed not only the Goths but also the Gepids and Vandals, were descended from the Sarmatians, an earlier Scythian group, and also the Melanchlaeni or "black cloaks", who had lived beyond the Scythians in the time of Herodotus (5th century BCE).

References

Among modern scholars however, on-going scholarly debate continues to be more influenced by the much more detailed account of Gothic origins found in Jordanes, a contemporary of Procopius, whose work, the Getica, described thousands of years of migrations including a long period in the Middle East. He equated the Goths to various historical peoples including not only the Getae and Scythians, but also Dacians and Amazons. Jordanes, who claimed Gothic ancestry, mentioned stories in "old Gothic songs of an almost historic style", and also cited now lost written works by Cassiodorus, and a Gothic writer named Ablabius.

Jordanes himself is considered an unreliable source for events before 500.

References

Although there is no consensus, scholars have made various arguments that two of the migrations described by Jordanes, from Scandinavia to the Vistula in 1490 BCE, and from there to the region corresponding to the plains north of the Black Sea about five generations later, may have reflected real events in some way, even though the dating and many other aspects of the story are rejected. Many scholars who believe that these two migration stories reflect real events argue that they were not straightforward migrations, but movements of small numbers of influential people, who brought their traditions and tribal names. This Traditionskern concept originated with Richard Wenskus and his so-called Vienna school, which has included Herwig Wolfram, and Walter Pohl. It is also accepted by Peter Heather, who argues that hints of this can even be detected in Jordanes.

Various types of evidence which various scholars have argued to be consistent with Jordanes include the following:

• The Gothic language is indisputably a Germanic language, meaning it is closely related to languages which are believed to have originated in what is now Scandinavia and eastern Germany, near the Vistula. Peter Heather has argued that this strongly implies a significant number of people actually migrated, including women.
• Consistent with Jordanes, Roman writers described a Germanic people known as the Gutones in the Vistula region in the first century. This name is considered by most philologists to be a variant form of the ethnic name of the Goths, in a Germanic language. Heather argues that the connection of the names is made more confident by the examples of the Vandals and Rugii, whose names similarly appear the Polish region in the first century but are later found "in and around the Carpathians".
• Historians such as Peter Heather emphasizes the way in which Jordanes, specifically mentioned some people and events mentioned in Gothic songs, indicating that he had some access to the information in such sources.
• Archaeologists have found evidence of Scandinavian influence and trade in Wielbark culture which is believed to have included the Gutones, along with "other ethnic groups sharing essentially the same material culture". Furthermore, this culture spread south, and was influential upon the Chernyakhov culture which is associated with the Goths known to the Romans. On this basis, Heather argues that this is proof that the second migration described by Jordanes involved a significant movement of people, though as "many smaller groups [...] over an extended period".

References

More specifically concerning the first Jordanes migration from Scandinavia:

• A people of Scandza called the Gutae, possibly identical to the later Geats, were mentioned by Ptolemy, and their name may also be another form of the name used by the Gutones and Goths. However the connection of the names has been doubted.
• It has been argued that evidence from etymology and the medieval Gutasaga suggests connections between the Goths and Gotland and the Gutes.

References

Examination of Krakkos proposal 7 April 2021

Krakkos 7 Apr 2021 [1]	commentary AL
The origins and early history of the Goths has been subject to much discussion.	Weasel word = "discussion". My proposal is that we need to say clear that there is no academic consensus about whether the origins of the Goths can be determined before they appear in the Black Sea area in the third century. Sources in my drafting above.
They are normally assumed to have to have been first attested in modern-day northern Poland by Roman sources sources in the 1st and 2nd centuries under various transliterations of the name Gutones. References	This equates Goths to Gutones, and our readers MUST assume we mean a biological equation. The field clearly have no consensus about that, even though some play with equating the words Goths and Gutones, due to their use of the concept of ethnogenesis which allows a biologically new people to become, in effect, an older people, without being their literal descendants. Poor citation usage: I do not have Heather 1998 which is Goths, but all his works show the same patterns and I am confident that he explains who the Gutones are and does not just jump into equating them to Goths. Indeed the last words make it clear that he lets readers know what he is doing. It is bad practice to be merging material from three widely separate pages as one passage. This style of footnote is not good. The Wolfram quote is also clearly missing a lot and is coming from many pages, all pasted together as one quote. This is bad practice! I can show how bad: pp.12–13: "Goths—or Gutones, as the Roman sources called them... The Gutonic immigrants became Goths the very moment the Mediterranean world considered them "Scythians"..." This quote is clearly not fit for proving that Gotones are the same thing as Goths, because it only alludes to the fact that some Gotones became some Goths. We need to turn from the intro to the body of the work which says p.44: the acculturation of the Goths to the Pontic area and their ethnogenesis "at the shores of the Black Sea" are simultaneous and mutually depent processes: In other words, we should speak of the Goths only after the Gutonic immigrants had become "Scythians" at the Black Sea. p.20: "The Gothic name appears for the first time between A.D. 16 and 18. We do not, however, find the strong form Guti but only the derivative form Gutones...". A derivative term is not the same term. This quote is not fit for use. p.23 Krakkos gives Hereafter, "whenever the Gutones and Guti are mentioned, these terms refer to the Goths." But this is NOT the real end of the sentence! It continues: ", these terms refer to the Goths on the continent before their migrations to the Black Sea." So this is literally the opposite of what this quote is being used for! How extremely wrong this is can be emphasized by considering this same shortened sentence has been used on the talk page to "prove" that "the "Gutones" are the same as the Goths or at least ancestral to them" [2] and "Scholars normally assume that the Gutones are identical to Goths" [3]. This is one of the main quotes repeated over and over to prove that Gutones are treated by some scholars simply as Goths. The Christensen quote also merges widely dispersed snippets from three parts of the work. Furthermore Christensen is being cited here for a position he does not agree with, and which he blames to a large extent on editors of the Greek text, not some coherant argument that his colleagues have. The argument that the two words "normally assumed" can be used like a secondary review of the field holds no water at all. These two words are not any kind of detailed review. The CONTEXT shows that this is not a justifiable citation.
Some historians argue that the Gutones were instead a distinct people who where perhaps partially ancestral to later Goths. References	This makes a false impression about the scholars in the previous sentence being different to this second group. The strong positions of Wolfram and Heather (who I believe uses the word significant for example, and writes of many small groups travelling over a long period and mixing with a wide array of other peoples) are not really qualitatively different from "partially" are they? In effect, this now insists that the majority of the field make a largely biological equation (note: "ancestral" which is more than "partially"), and only a minority think it was "partially ancestral". Clearly misleading. In fact many of the scholars use wording which leaves this open. For many of those following the Wenskus approach, the relative strength of the biological/ancestral link is not something they claim to be able to judge, and not the essential thing they are discussing.
Archaeologists associate the Goths with the Wielbark culture, which flourished in Pomerania and along the lower Vistula at the time the Gutones are recorded to have lived there. References	[For the Heather quote see above.] Actually, archaeologists associate the Goths with being one of the peoples represented in the the Sântana de Mureş-Černjachov culture. They associate the Gutones with being one of the peoples present in the Wielbark culture. This is also how Wolfram and Heather write. These are two different cultures for them, and also for archaeologists (even if they are placed in one bigger "circle" by Kokowski). Sure, it is clearly true that scholars also associate the Goths with the Gutones, and sometimes even mix the names up in their narratives. But you can't jump past all that and equate things because this stylistic decision. This will mislead our readers terribly.
The Wielbark culture has in turn been associated with the area of Gothiscandza, to which Jordanes in his Getica says the Goths emigrated from the island of Scandza under their king Berig. References	Jordanes mentions the Vistula, which is much more clearly identifiable, so because this is not an article about Jordanes, we do not need to go into the mystery of Gothiscandza. This wording is also written in a style which eases the reader into assuming Jordanes is worth using for this point. We are introducing him as our authority BEFORE we tell our readers that scholars do not trust him!
While Jordanes' account on Gothic history has been the subject of much interest, its reliability is disputed. References	Weasel words. Jordanes is considered unreliable by all commentators of Jordanes. (See sources in my drafting above.) And he has not just been "of interest" but actually the only traditional source of many of the suppositions in the historiography of this topic. (We already have sourcing in our article for that.)
On the basis of onomastic evidence, some scholars have suggested that the Goths may have had common origins with the Geats and Gutes of southern Sweden. References	The Goths here, strictly speaking, are the Gutones. Also, I understood the other editors felt it important to mention archaeological evidence of Scandinavian links. It might not be strong enough to be strong proof but it is often mentioned.
In Roman sources the Gutones are said to have been subjects of the Marcomannic king Maroboduus and a subgroup of the Vandals. References	Is this needed in this short summary? There are actually a fair few uncertainties about this. It requires connecting two primary sources, one of which mentions the Butones. Not all scholars feel equally comfortable about this.
The Vandals have been associated with the Przeworsk culture. References	Is this something we need to explain in this article? If we are going to mention this culture do we need to say more? Readers will wonder why we are mentioning it.
From the 2nd century AD the Wielbark culture expands southeastwards at the expense of the Przeworsk culture. References	Strange tense use. Is this level of detail wanted?
The expansion has been connected to the Marcomannic Wars. References	[For the Kowkowski footnote see above.] This is a strange repeat of the Marcomanni point above. I am a great fan of Robinson's book, but I strongly believe it is not a suitable book for this use. It should not be the source we use here. "has been connected to" = weasel words . Very vague! The point behind it is of course concerning the Gutones being mentioned, at least once. I am not confident we need to discuss this, but if we do we have better sources (used above in fact) and we need to write something that actually means something. Presumably, that will make this a longer discussion.
At this time the Wielbark culture displays notable Scandinavian influences, which has led some to suggest that migrations of elite Scandinavian clans may have played a role in early Gothic history. References	This is chronologically strange and sits in a strange position in this section. What is "at this time" referring to? The time of the Marcomannic wars? Really? I'd say the place to discuss Scandinavian influence on the Wielbark culture is elswhere?
In the 3rd century AD the Wielbark culture expands further towards the Black Sea, where it is believed to have contributed to the formation of the Chernyakhov culture, which came to flourish in areas between the Danube and the Don. This process has been compared to Jordanes' account that the Goths under Filimer migrated from Gothiscandza into Oium. References	[For the Kokowski footnote see above.] I strongly believe this Gwynn quote should be removed. See the discussion with Nishidani
The role of Gothic migration in the formation of the Chernyakhov culture has been a source of much discussion among scholars. References	"much discussion" = weasel words. Many scholars think the archaeological evidence on its own shows no real proof on its own of major migration. This includes people who believe there was, or probably was a migration of some type, small or larger, such as Heather and Halsall. (Who both turn to non-archaeological evidence.) So this really misunderstands the sources being cited.
Some scholars argue that the evidence of such migration is weak and too reliant on Jordanes. References	Not a good summary of Halsall. We are not actually explaining what Halsall thinks. Also, I think it is not a true reflection of the field to treat him as a special category. I think his position his not so unusual.
While the Chernyakhov culture is believed to have included Iranian, Dacian, Roman and perhaps Slavic elements, it is nevertheless universally recognized as a culture dominated by the Goths. References	Clearly not an ideal quote because "poetic" and hence a bit unclear. Also, I don't think our expert sources mention "Iranian peoples". Also, we should mention the Germanic peoples such as the Bastarnae who probably went into the mix. (See sourcing in my drafting above, including remarks by Halsall and Heather.) And what about the Przeworsk peoples? Also often mentioned as probably being in the mix.

Older Drafting

• The Goths are first clearly mentioned in Roman sources in the third century, living in the area north of the Lower Danube and Black Sea, in the Scythian region which had previously been home to Sarmatians and Bastarnae, and which is now contained within Romania, Moldava and Ukraine.
• Scholars do not agree about whether these Goths had an identifiable and continuous history and identity which stretched before the third century.
• Whether or not the Goths were a newly constituted people in the third century, several lines of evidence suggest that this happened under strong cultural influence from the direction of the Vistula, which possibly involved significant migration:

• First and second century authors, specifically Tacitus and Ptolemy, mentioned Gotones living near the Vistula, south of the Baltic sea, in their time.
• Jordanes, in the 6th century, wrote a history of the Goths which described them as having once lived near the Vistula.

References

comparisons and notes

version 28 Apr 2020

drafting notes

History Origins and early history According to Jordanes, a Gothic 6th-century historian, the Goths migrated from southern Scandinavia to the lower Vistula, seizing the lands of the Rugii. Such a migration is controversial, and has not been confirmed archaeologically. Rather than a wholesale migration, Herwig Wolfram considers it entirely plausible that the Gothic elite had come from southern Scandinavia. The earliest possible mentions of the Goths are in Roman sources of the 1st century, who refer to a people called the "Gutones" living along the lower Vistula. The Gutones are generally considered ancestral or even identical to the later Goths, but not everyone accepts this. The Gutones are associated with the Wielbark culture, which flourished in the area at the time, having succeeded the Oksywie culture. Roman historians write that the Gutones were in close contact with the Lugii and Vandals, and that they were at times in conflict with the Suebi. A people of Scandza called the Gutae, possibly identical to the later Geats, are also mentioned, and it is possible that this people had close relations or even shared origins with the Gutones. Evidence from etymology and the Gutasaga suggests connections with Gotland and the Gutes. During the early centuries AD, the Wielbark culture expands southward at the expense of the Przeworsk culture, which is associated with the Lugii and Vandals. By the 3rd century, this southward expansion to the areas north of the Danube is believed to have contributed to the formation of the Chernyakhov culture. It is in the 3rd century that the name "Goths" is first mentioned. References

Origins and early history It is in the 3rd century that the name "Goths" is first mentioned. [Move last sentence to first position]. Steinacher p.27: Jene Völker, die dann in der Spätantike und dem Frühmittelalter eine bedeutende Rolle spielen sollten, also die Goten, Vandalen, Franken, Alemannen, Gepiden, Heruler and andere Völker, begannen gerade im 3. Jahrhundert hervorzutreten. Steinacher p.48: Dass die römischen Quellen dort [an das Schwarze Meer] im Vorfeld de Imperium, im 3. und 4. Jahrhundert Goten lokalisieren, steht fest. Wolfram p.13: The Goths of the third century were considered a new people to whom the old Scythian name applied. No ancient ethnographer made a connection between the Goths and the Gutones. The Gutonic immigrants became Goths the very moment the Mediterranean world considered them Scythians. The exact origins of the Goths are unclear and disputed. The 6th-century Jordanes historian, in his work called the Getica, claimed that the Goths had migrated many times before arriving in the first the Goths migrated from southern Scandinavia to the lower Vistula, seizing the lands of the Rugii. Such a migration is controversial, and has not been confirmed archaeologically. Rather than a wholesale migration, Herwig Wolfram considers it entirely plausible that the Gothic elite had come from southern Scandinavia. The earliest possible mentions of the Goths are in Roman sources of the 1st century, who refer to a people called the "Gutones" living along the lower Vistula. The Gutones are generally considered ancestral or even identical to the later Goths, but not everyone accepts this. The Gutones are associated with the Wielbark culture, which flourished in the area at the time, having succeeded the Oksywie culture. Tacitus described the Gutones living close to the Lugii and Vandals, and that they were at times in conflict with the Suebi. A people of Scandza called the Gutae, possibly identical to the later Geats, are also mentioned by Ptolemy, and it is possible that this people had close relations or even shared origins with the Gutones. Evidence from etymology and the Gutasaga suggests connections with Gotland and the Gutes. During the early centuries AD, the Wielbark culture expands southward at the expense of the Przeworsk culture, which is associated with the Lugii and Vandals. By the 3rd century, this southward expansion to the areas north of the Danube is believed to have contributed to the formation of the Chernyakhov culture. References