User:Antidiskriminator/Sandbox/Old sandbox

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My sandbox[edit]

Sources for Operation Flash[edit]

  • Brigović, state archive archivist - 28 times
  • Balkan Battlegrounds, unknown authors - 22 times
  • The New York Times - 15 times
  • Sekulić, General of RSK - 9 times
  • News reports 29 times - Newspapers published in Croatia - Jutarnji list (2), Nacional (2), Index (2), Slobodna Dalmacija, Narodne Novine - official gazette of the Croatia - 2 times

Sources[edit]

  • Народноослободилачки иокреш и НОВ у Санџаку - Богдан Гледовић
  • Nataša Kandić; Fond za humanitarno pravo (2001). Abductions and disappearances of non-Albanians in Kosovo. Humanitarian Law Center. ISBN 9788682599265. Retrieved 24 February 2013.
  • Florian Bieber; Zidas Daskalovski (1 April 2003). Understanding the War in Kosovo. Routledge. p. 66. ISBN 978-0-203-50073-6. Retrieved 24 February 2013. Serbs and other non-Albanians who believed they had no reason to fear retaliation by the returning ethnic Albanians, stayed in Kosovo. However, they became the targets of revenge and violence by the KLA, armed Albanian civilians...
  • Bouckaert, Peter (2004). Failure to Protect: Anti-minority Violence in Kosovo, March 2004. Human Rights Watch. p. 8. GGKEY:XX8XTDK4E19. Retrieved 24 February 2013. While the intensity of the violence in the immediate post-war period subsided Serbs and other minorities continued to be regularly attacked in Kosovo
  • Yearbook of the United Nations 1999. United Nations Publications. 2003. p. 730. ISBN 978-92-1-100856-2. Retrieved 24 February 2013. {{cite book}}: Text "Following the war in Kosovo, human rights violations in Kosovo occurred with virtual impunity despite UNMIK efforts to create a temporary judiciary. Killings, abductions, destruction of property and continued displacements of non-Albanians..." ignored (help)
  • Gary T. Dempsey; Roger W. Fontaine; Cato Institute (2001). Fool's Errands: America's Recent Encounters With Nation Building. Cato Institute. pp. 140–. ISBN 978-1-930865-06-8. Retrieved 24 February 2013. As quickly as NATO began deploying peacekeeping troops in Kosovo, the KLA began driving out the province's Serbs and other non- Albanians
  • Council of Europe: Parliamentary Assembly; Council of Europe. Consultative Assembly (6 January 2005). Official Report OF DEBATES. Council of Europe. pp. 31–. ISBN 978-92-871-5433-0. Retrieved 24 February 2013. All the words about building a democratic multiethnic society in Kosovo are baseless. The process of forcing the non-Albanians out of Kosovo is ongoing.
  • Christian P. Scherrer (2003). Ethnicity, Nationalism, and Violence: Conflict Management, Human Rights, and Multilateral Regimes. Ashgate Publishing, Ltd. pp. 315–. ISBN 978-0-7546-0956-8. Retrieved 24 February 2013. In the Kosovo the remaining non-Albanians live under death threats
  • William G. O'Neill (2002). Kosovo: An Unfinished Peace. Lynne Rienner Publishers. pp. 53–. ISBN 978-1-58826-021-5. Retrieved 24 February 2013. Carle Del Ponte.... requested the tribunal's statute to cover crimes against humanity committed against Serbs and other non- Albanians since NATO forces arrived in June 1999
  • Michael Parenti (1 August 2007). Contrary Notions: The Michael Parenti Reader. City Lights Books. pp. 292–. ISBN 978-0-87286-601-0. Retrieved 24 February 2013. Between 1945 and 1998, the non-Albanian Kosovar population of Serbs, Roma, Turks, Gorani (Muslim Slavs), Montenegrins, and several other ethnic groups — subjected to systematic intimidation and expulsion — shrank from some 60 percent to about 20 percent
  • Jeannette Goering (15 October 2007). Nations in Transit 2007: Democratization from Central Europe to Eurasia. Rowman & Littlefield. pp. 370–. ISBN 978-0-932088-26-0. Retrieved 24 February 2013. Those Serbian kosovars who remained in Kosovo were subject to systematic attacks and intimidation
  • Katerina Popova; Marko Hajdinjak (1 January 2006). Forced ethnic migrations on the Balkans: consequences and rebulding of societies : conference proceedings : 22-23 February 2005, Sofia, Bulgaria. International Centre for Minority Studies and Intercultural Relations. p. 224. ISBN 978-954-8872-61-4. Retrieved 24 February 2013. Systematic attacks upon the Serb population, and to a lesser extent upon the other non-Albanian minorities,...
  • Eve-Ann Prentice (2000). One woman's war. Duck Editions. p. 207. ISBN 978-0-7156-2961-1. Retrieved 24 February 2013. Many of the KLA and their sympathisers who entered Kosovo in June under the protection of Nato embarked on a systematic campaign of killing, terrorising and burning the homes of Serbs and other non- Albanians such as Roma gypsies.
  • Michael Radu (2006). Dilemmas of Democracy and Dictatorship. Transaction Publishers. p. 129. ISBN 978-1-4128-2171-1. Retrieved 24 February 2013. ...these violations are not emotional outbursts by isolated individuals. Rather they are part of the parcel of a longstanding KLA policy of emptying Kosovo of non-Albanians

Bosansko Krajište[edit]

  • In the conquered parts of the country, they established the Bosansko krajište or the Hodidjed Vilayet. [1]
  • из документа од 1439. може се превести само као »погранични крајеви Босне«, односно »Босанско крајиште«, познато из повеље од 19. јула 1453. [2]
  • Међутим о стабилизацији турске власти у пограничним прајевима Босне названим »Босанско крајиште«, и то за раздобље послије 1435, па до почетка 1451. свједочи нарочито један дубровачки акт од марта 1439., у коме се у... [3]
  • Bosansko krajiSte (Bosnian frontierland).[4]
  • "Bosansko krajiSte" [The Bosnian Military March] , GodiSnjak (Sarajevo) 9 (1957): 177-220 [5]
  • Непосредно после освајања територије средњовековне босанске државе 1463-64, Босанско крајиште, које је од 1455. било део пространог Скопског крајишта (1392), постало је део новоформираног Босанског санџака.[6]
  • тога што је цар Иса-бегу Исхаковићу повјерио »1 сопНгп сћ Возпа«, то јест пограничне крајеве Босне односно Босанско крајиште[7]
  • После Косовске битке Паша Јигит-бег је освојио Скопље и основао скопско-босанско крајиште [8]
  • Ragusans referred to sanjakbeys of Herzegovina sanjak as krajišnici until the end of XVI century. Parallel with Ottoman incursions into Bosnia and Herzegovina the term krajište was applied to the territories which were more northern than the territories previously referred to as krajište. Before 1463 Ottomans captured part of Bosnia and organized it krajište (Turkish: Serhat) with voivode or krajišnik on top of it. Ottomans took this kind of administrative unit from Byzantine Empire.[9]
  • According to Hazim Šabanović Hodidjed in Vrhbosna was captured by Ottomans in 1448. This capture marked the beginning of the real Ottoman rule in the central Bosnia. Šabanović thinks that Bosansko Krajište (Ottomans sometimes referred to it as vilayet Hodidjed) was organized as part of Skopsko krajište in 1451 which had seven villayets recorded during the census in 1455.[10]
  • "Dve godine istirije Bosanskog krajista (1479 i 1480) prema Ibn Kemalu" (Deux annees d'histoire bosniaque selon Ibn Kemal), POF XIV-XV, 33-50.[11]


References[edit]

  1. ^ Jørgen S. Nielsen (9 December 2011). Religion, Ethnicity and Contested Nationhood in the Former Ottoman Space. BRILL. pp. 260–. ISBN 978-90-04-21133-9. Retrieved 22 January 2013.
  2. ^ Drustvo Istoricara Bosne i Hercegovine, Sarajevo (1962). Godisnjak. Retrieved 22 January 2013.
  3. ^ Društvo istoričara Bosne i Hercegovine (1964). Godišnjak Društva istoričara Bosne i Hercegovine: Annuaire de la Société historique de Bosnie et Herzégovine. Društvo istoričara Bosne i Hercegovine. Retrieved 22 January 2013.
  4. ^ Vesna Nikolić-Ristanović (2000). Women, Violence, and War: Wartime Victimization of Refugees in the Balkans. Central European University Press. pp. 240–. ISBN 978-963-9116-60-3. Retrieved 22 January 2013.
  5. ^ Peter F. Sugar (1993). Southeastern Europe Under Ottoman Rule: 1354-1804. University of Washington Press. pp. 64–. ISBN 978-0-295-96033-3. Retrieved 22 January 2013.
  6. ^ Јелена Мргић; Тибор Живковић (2008). Северна Босна: 13-16. век. Историјски институт. ISBN 9788677430719. Retrieved 22 January 2013.
  7. ^ Društvo istoričara Bosne i Hercegovine (1963). Godišnjak. Retrieved 22 January 2013.
  8. ^ Božidar Blagojević; Balkanološki institut (Srpska akademija nauka i umetnosti) (1984). Zbornik radova sa naučnih skupova u Negotinu i Kladovu povodom obeležavanja 170 godina od pogibije Hajduk-Veljka Petrovića i 150 godina oslobođenja od turaka. Međuopštinska konferencija SSRN. Retrieved 22 January 2013.
  9. ^ Balcanica. Srpska Akademija Nauka i Umetnosti, Balkanološki Institut. 1974. Retrieved 22 January 2013.
  10. ^ Istorijski glasnik. Naučna knjiga. 1965. p. 3. Retrieved 22 January 2013. По једном мишљењу (X. Шабановић) град Ходидјед у Врхбосни Турци су дефинитивно посели за време своје провале 1448. године, од кад би да- тирао почетак стварне турске власти у централној Босни.
  11. ^ International Bibliography of the History of Religions. Brill Archive. 1954. pp. 109–. ISBN 978-90-04-03733-5. Retrieved 22 January 2013.

Draft of the comment[edit]

This article was one of my first articles I created on wikipedia (24th of 184 I created until now) more than two years ago and one of the first few articles about the history of Ottoman Empire. I had intention to further expand it and to make it at least DYK article but I realized I should learn more about the Ottoman Empire first. Ottoman borderlands.

The Ottoman Empire had very complicated administrative structure which is not always easy to understand or to define precisely, especially in its period of expansion. When I created this article I realized that Skopsko Krajište, founded in 1392 was expanded further into the Europe. Ottomans organized incursions into other neighboring states (of what is today known as Kosovo, Sandžak, Bosnia and Herzegovina) capturing their territories more or less temporarily or permanently. Therefore Krajište did not have stable permanent territory, hence interim character of this administrative unit. Although Ottoman incursions into Bosnia started before the Skopsko Krajište was established in 1392 it was the earliest year Bosansko Krajište could be possibly connected to. That is why I wrote 1392 as year of its start. I felt I should clarify this taking in consideration unnecessarily harsh comment with accusation for "presenting unreliably-sourced or misinterpreted data".

Draft of the article

The Bosansko krajište or the Bosnian Military March[BK 1] or the Bosnian frontierland[BK 2] was an interim border territory of the Ottoman Empire in Bosnia before the Bosnian Sanjak was established in 1463.

First mentions

Even before the Ottoman controlled territory of Bosnia officially organized the first separate administrative unit (known also as 'Hodidjed vilayet' or 'Vilayet Saray-ovasi') between 1448 and 1451, the parts of Bosnia controlled by Ottoman Empire were referred to as Bosansko Krajište. One Ragusan document of 1439 explains consolidation of Ottoman rule in the Bosansko Krajište after 1435.[BK 3][BK 4]

Before the establishment of the Ottomans administrative units in Bosnia in 1451 the Ottomans captured temporarily or permanently the following towns of Bosnian Kingdom:

Etymology

The Ottoman Empire took the institution of krajište from the Byzantine Empire.[BK 6] The word krajište is taken from Serbian: krajište, крајиште, referring to an administrative unit on the border of Serbian Empire or Serbian Despotate, when the emperor or despot had not established solid and firm control over such unit, due to raids from hostile neighbouring provinces.

Administration

When Ottomans consolidated their rule in the medieval župa Vrhbosna in 1451 the usual name of the territory which comprised large areas of the present day Macedonia, Kosovo, Raška and part of Bosnia was 'Skopsko-Bosansko Krajište' or only 'Skopsko Krajište'[BK 7]. It was divided on several vilayets, most of them corresponded with captured land of some medieval feudal lord according to whom it was named, or against major stronghold, the biggest settlement or dominant geographical point. The Ottoman controlled territory of Bosnia was established as administrative unit (vilayets) named 'Vilayet Hodidjed' or 'Vilayet Saray-ovasi'.[BK 8]

The first Ottoman census of the territory of the above mentioned vilayets of Bosansko Krajište began in 1451 and lasted for several years.[BK 9]

Miscellaneous

One of the scholars who most studied the Bosansko Krajište was Hazim Šabanović who directly connects Bosansko Krajište with the Ottoman capture of Župa Vrhbosna. He defines Bosansko Krajište as the territory governed by the Ottomans from the beginning of their permanent control over Župa Vrhbosna and its capital Hodidjed in 1448 until the final fall of the Bosnian Kingdom and establishment of the Sanjak of Bosnia in 1463.[BK 10] His view is not fully supported by other scholars who emphasized that he was wrong both in the life span of the Krajište and in its territory. Šabanović's view is not completely accepted because the territory of Bosansko Krajište included parts of other župas captured by the Ottomans before Vilayet Hodidjed was established.[BK 11]


  • In this case there is a possibility that view of Hazim Šabanović is not properly interpreted, taking in consideration data presented in other sources.
    1. Hazim Šabanović connects Bosansko Krajište with Ottoman capture of Župa Vrhbosna. He defines Bosansko Krajište as the territory governed by the Ottomans from the beginning of their permanent control over Župa Vrhbosna and its capital Hodidjed until the fall of the Bosnian Kingdom and establishment of the Sanjak of Bosnia in 1463.[BK 12] Šabanović stated that Bosansko Krajište (Ottomans sometimes referred to it as vilayet Hodidjed) was officially organized as villayet of Skopsko krajište in 1451 and surveyed as such in 1455.[BK 13] I am not sure that Šabanović rejects the existence of Bosansko Krajište before 1451. He just mention its official establishment as Vilayet Hodidjed, a part of Skopsko Krajište in 1451. Šabanović's view is not completely accepted because the territory of Bosansko Krajište included parts of other župas already captured by Ottomans.[BK 14]
    2. The other sources explain that Skopsko Krajište founded in 1392 was an Ottoman foothold for further Ottoman incursions into Europe and that its governor was also in charge for Bosnia. Some sources even refer to Skopsko and Bosansko Krajište as one unit (Skopsko-Bosansko Krajište).[BK 15][BK 16] Мany other sources elaborate on Bosansko Krajište before Šabanović's 1451. I.e. sources which explain that one Ragusan document from 1439 elaborates the Ottoman rule in Bosansko Krajište (parts of Bosnia under Ottoman control in period between 1435 and 1451)[BK 17][BK 18]
  • Whatever was the territory of this administrative unit or the exact date of its official establishment it is undisputed that its alternative name was "Vilayet Hodidjed" or "Vilayet Saray-ovasi".[BK 19]
  • It is also quite clear that it is covered not only by modern scholarly sources but also with contemporary registers, i.e. register of holdings of Isa Beg Isaković and other lists of Ottoman timariots in this administrative unit.[BK 20] This administrative unit is not only mentioned in Ottoman contemporary sources. Besides above mentioned 1439 Ragusan source Bosansko Krajište is also mentioned in the epistle written by Herceg Stefan in 1453.[BK 21]
  • Based on the above explanation I don't think that the data on "personal web sites" necessarily contradict other more reliable sources.

See also

References

References

  1. ^ Peter F. Sugar (1993). Southeastern Europe Under Ottoman Rule: 1354-1804. University of Washington Press. pp. 64–. ISBN 978-0-295-96033-3. Retrieved 22 January 2013.
  2. ^ Vesna Nikolić-Ristanović (2000). Women, Violence, and War: Wartime Victimization of Refugees in the Balkans. Central European University Press. pp. 240–. ISBN 978-963-9116-60-3. Retrieved 22 January 2013.
  3. ^ Društvo istoričara Bosne i Hercegovine (1964). Godišnjak Društva istoričara Bosne i Hercegovine: Annuaire de la Société historique de Bosnie et Herzégovine. Društvo istoričara Bosne i Hercegovine. Retrieved 22 January 2013. Међутим о стабилизацији турске власти у пограничним прајевима Босне названим »Босанско крајиште«, и то за раздобље послије 1435, па до почетка 1451. свједочи нарочито један дубровачки акт од марта 1439., у коме се у...
  4. ^ Drustvo Istoricara Bosne i Hercegovine, Sarajevo (1962). Godisnjak. Retrieved 22 January 2013. из документа од 1439. може се превести само као »погранични крајеви Босне«, односно »Босанско крајиште«, познато из повеље од 19. јула 1453.
  5. ^ Srpska akademija nauka i umetnosti. Etnografski institut (1950). Zbornik radova. Retrieved 23 January 2013. 1418. и 1419. године босански бег Исхак оовојио ^е Вишеград на Дрини и Сокол на ушпу Пиве у Тару
  6. ^ Balcanica. Srpska Akademija Nauka i Umetnosti, Balkanološki Institut. 1974. Retrieved 22 January 2013. заузели су Турци један дио босанског територија и на војничку га организовали као крајиште или с е р х а т с војводом или крајишником на челу. Ту установу су Турци преузели од Бизанта
  7. ^ Revue de philologie orientale. Institut. 2003. p. 119. Retrieved 24 January 2013. U vilajetima Skopskog Krajišta(39) 1455 godine... 39) Tada je Skopsko Krajište u svom sastavu imalo sledeće vilajete: Skoplje, Kalkandelen (danas Tetovo), Veles, Sjenica, Ras, Jeleč, Zvečan, Nikšići, i Hodidid (Hodidjed
  8. ^ Katić, Tatjana (2010), "Vilajet Pastric (Paštrik) 1452/1453 godine", Micelleanea (in Serbian), Belgrade: Istorijski Institut, Од 1448. када је успоставио сталну турску власт у средњовековној жупи Врхбосни уобичајени назив за област која је обухватала велике делове данашње Македоније, Косово, Рашку и део Босне био је Скопско-босанско крајиште. Крајиште је билo издељено на више вилајета, мањих војно - управних области. Већина њих се обимом поклапала с освојеном земљом неког средњовековног династа и носила је име или по пређашњем господару, или по главном утврђењу, највећем насељу, или доминантној географској одредници. Половином XV века крајишки вилајети у Македонији били су: Скопље, Калканделен (Тетово), Горњи и Доњи Дебар, Дуго Брдо, Река, Чемерница, Велес, Прилеп, Битољ ,Кичево и други 6 ; на подручју Косова, Рашке и Босне постојали су вилајети: Пастриц (касније Паштрик), Влк (област Вука Бранковића), Приштина, Звечан, Јелеч, Рас, Сјеница, Никшићи (Власи Никшићи) и Ходидјед (Saray-ovası). {{citation}}: |first2= missing |last2= (help); Cite has empty unknown parameter: |lay-date= (help); More than one of |author= and |last1= specified (help)CS1 maint: multiple names: authors list (link)
  9. ^ Katić, Tatjana (2010), "Vilajet Pastric (Paštrik) 1452/1453 godine", Micelleanea (in Serbian), Belgrade: Istorijski Institut, Први сачувани дефтери Скопско - босанског крајишта настали су у време општег пописа Румелије, који је започет по ступању на престо Мехмеда II, 1451. и трајао је неколико година. {{citation}}: |first2= missing |last2= (help); Cite has empty unknown parameter: |lay-date= (help); More than one of |author= and |last1= specified (help)CS1 maint: multiple names: authors list (link)
  10. ^ "Historijski zbornik" (PDF). Savez Povjijesnih Društava Hrvatske. 1976. p. 505. Retrieved January 22, 2013.
  11. ^ Vesna Mušeta-Aščerić (2005). Sarajevo i njegova okolina u XV stoljeću: između zapada i istoka. Sarajevo Publishing. p. 15. ISBN 978-9958-21-393-9. Retrieved 22 January 2013. U okvire Bosanskog Krajišta ulazila je celokupna oblast kasnofeudalne župe Vrhbosna ali i dijelovi susednih župa koje su Osmanlije do tog momenta osvojile. Stoga ne stoji Šabanovićeva tvrdnja da je vilajet Hodidjed, odnosno Bosansko krajište, identično srednjovjekovnoj župi Vrhbosni.
  12. ^ "Historijski zbornik" (PDF). Savez Povjijesnih Društava Hrvatske. 1976. p. 505. Retrieved January 22, 2013.
  13. ^ Istorijski glasnik. Naučna knjiga. 1965. p. 3. Retrieved 22 January 2013. По једном мишљењу (X. Шабановић) град Ходидјед у Врхбосни Турци су дефинитивно посели за време своје провале 1448. године, од кад би да- тирао почетак стварне турске власти у централној Босни. Босанско Крајиште (или Турски вилајет Ходидјед), по истом аутору, организовало се као део (вилајет) Скопског крајишта свакако 1451. године. Такво стање је установљено приликом пописа целог Скопског крајишта 1455. године кад је то крајиште имало седам вилајета.
  14. ^ Vesna Mušeta-Aščerić (2005). Sarajevo i njegova okolina u XV stoljeću: između zapada i istoka. Sarajevo Publishing. p. 15. ISBN 978-9958-21-393-9. Retrieved 22 January 2013. U okvire Bosanskog Krajišta ulazila je celokupna oblast kasnofeudalne župe Vrhbosna ali i dijelovi susednih župa koje su Osmanlije do tog momenta osvojile. Stoga ne stoji Šabanovićeva tvrdnja da je vilajet Hodidjed, odnosno Bosansko krajište, identično srednjovjekovnoj župi Vrhbosni.
  15. ^ Katić, Tatjana (2011), Popis Zeameta i Timra Oblasti Bervenik 1477 godine (in Serbian), p. 157, Скопско-босанско крајиште {{citation}}: |first2= missing |last2= (help); Cite has empty unknown parameter: |lay-date= (help); More than one of |author= and |last1= specified (help); Unknown parameter |coauthors= ignored (|author= suggested) (help)CS1 maint: multiple names: authors list (link)
  16. ^ Božidar Blagojević; Balkanološki institut (Srpska akademija nauka i umetnosti) (1984). Zbornik radova sa naučnih skupova u Negotinu i Kladovu povodom obeležavanja 170 godina od pogibije Hajduk-Veljka Petrovića i 150 godina oslobođenja od turaka. Međuopštinska konferencija SSRN. Retrieved 22 January 2013.
  17. ^ Društvo istoričara Bosne i Hercegovine (1964). Godišnjak Društva istoričara Bosne i Hercegovine: Annuaire de la Société historique de Bosnie et Herzégovine. Društvo istoričara Bosne i Hercegovine. Retrieved 22 January 2013. Међутим о стабилизацији турске власти у пограничним прајевима Босне названим »Босанско крајиште«, и то за раздобље послије 1435, па до почетка 1451. свједочи нарочито један дубровачки акт од марта 1439., у коме се у...
  18. ^ Drustvo Istoricara Bosne i Hercegovine, Sarajevo (1962). Godisnjak. Retrieved 22 January 2013. из документа од 1439. може се превести само као »погранични крајеви Босне«, односно »Босанско крајиште«, познато из повеље од 19. јула 1453.
  19. ^ Svetlana Bajić; Mirza Hasan Ćeman; Dragutin Ressner (2000). Ilidža. Općina Ilidža. ISBN 978-9958-9495-2-4. Retrieved 22 January 2013.
  20. ^ Monumenta turcica historiam slavorum meridionalium illustrantia. Institut. 1957. Retrieved 22 January 2013. 1 HASOVI ISA-BEGA ISHAKOVIĆA 3 Vilajeti Zveean, Jeleč, Sjenica i Ras 3 Džemat vlaha Senioa (Sjenice) 8 Nahija Senice {Sjenice) 8 Vilajet Nikšikler (NLkšići) 13 Vilajet Hodidide (Hodidjed) 14 Nahija Tilava 15 Vilajet Kalkandelen (Tetovo)
  21. ^ Drustvo Istoricara Bosne i Hercegovine, Sarajevo (1953). Godisnjak. Retrieved 22 January 2013.

Uprising in Montenegro[edit]

  • According to Mihailo Marković the Partisans from Montenegro killed thousands of people. Marković, Mihailo (2006). Social and political thought of Njegoš. SANU. p. 14. ISBN 9788670254220. Замишљајући ваљда да врше истрагу потурица у новим условима, црногор- ски партизани су крајем 1941. и почетком 1942. године превентивно убили хиљаде
  • In the end of March 1942 Pijade wrote to Tito and informed him that communists from Nikšić killed 150 Chetniks and burned village Ozrinić. Đuretić, Veselin (1997). Violence against the Serb uprising. Institut. p. 276. ISBN 9788671790246. Крајем марта Моша Пијаде јављао је Титу: "Никшићки пролетеријат побио је 150 вагабунда и спалили су село Озриниће... Једино таквом ...Naša reč: organ Saveza Oslobodjenje. Savez. 1987. pp. 8–27. Из Црне Горе је Моша Пијаде, крајем марта 1942. године, одговарајући на раније инструкције врха, Титу писао: никшићки ударници побили...

Pavle Đurišić[edit]

My contribution ot Pavle Đurišić article[edit]

User:Antidiskriminator/Sandbox/Old sandbox/Pavle Đurišić

Miscellaneous[edit]

Command posts[edit]

S proljeća 1930. u „Takovski" puk je stigao potporučnik Pavle I. Đurišić, sa završenom 55. klasom Niže škole Vojne akademije. Rođen je 1909. u uglednoj podgoričkoj porodici, ali je, ostavši rano bez oca Ilije, odrastao i školovao se, sve do odlaska u Akademiju, u Beranama, srcu plemena Vasojevića, u domu ujaka Petra Radovića, cijenjenog sudije i ranije četnika iz odreda slavnog vojvode Vuka. Potporučnici Arso i Pavle su se brzo zbližili, osjetivši da, bar za početak drugovanja, imaju dovoljno zajedničkog: bili su vršnjaci, voljeli su oficirski poziv, ambiciozno su izgrađivali vodove kojima su komandovali i bili uzor drugima, u pričama su se često vraćali zavičajnoj Podgorici; bili stasiti i uvijek elegantno odjeveni, u društvu kavaljeri. Tako se njihovih drugovanja u Sarajevu, kako mi je kasnije pričao u Miločeru, sjećao general JNA Velimir Terzić.

Ranks:

  • 1930 - 1934: infantry lieutenant in the 10th Infantry Regiment in Sarajevo
  • 1934 - 1939: a platoon commander and later a commander of the first company of the 48th Infantry Regiment in Berane
  • 7 April 1939 - April 1941: Intelligence officer responsible for Albania, Plav
  • 13 July 1941 - August 1941: Communist party of Montenegro
  • 20 December 1941 - 14 May 1943 : Commander of Chetniks in central and eastern Montenegro and parts of the Sandžak
  • 14 May 1943 - November 1943: In German prison
  • November 1943 - Spring of 1944: assistant to the commander of the Serbian Volunteer Corps
  • Spring of 1944 -Beginning of 1945: Montenegrin Volunteer Corps
  • 23 January 1945 - 22 March 1945: Bosnia - the Chetnik 8th Montenegrin Army, consisting of the 1st, 5th, 8th and 9th (Herzegovina) divisions, together with Zaharije Ostojić and Petar Baćović
  • 22 March - 21 April 1945 - the "Montenegrin National Army" subordinated to Sekula Drljević

Other[edit]

  • Additional sources :
    • Михаило П Минић (1965). Расуте кости: (1941-1945). Сједињене Државе Америке.
      • Депешом о покрету Павла са одредом за Босну, спрече-но је извођење стратегије Павла у заједници са албанскимпрвацима за отпор у Црној Гори и Албанији и намера зајед-ничког одступања, преко Албаније за Грчкуу случају лом-љења отпора у Црној Гори и Албанији.Можели се веровати, да је Павле са одредом, позват заБосну, само зато, да не би са снагама свога одреда и снага-ма националне Албаније изашао за Грчку и са тим ојачаолични престиж и престиж свога одреда.

Contacts with Albanians[edit]

  • Redžić, Vučeta (2002). Građanski rat u Crnoj Gori: Dešavanja od sredine 1942. godine do sredine 1945. godine. Stupovi. p. 510. После тога Душан Арсовић је 15.11. позвао др Илију Вујовића на састанак код Павла који је одржан у Голубовцима у Зети. Ђуришић је Машану Аџићу саопштио наређење Драже Михаиловића да одведе делегацију у Скадар и са - Mihailovic ordered to sign agreement with Albanian government to cooperate during eventual Chetnik retreat trough Albania
  • Ostojić, Radomir J. (1985). Faze događaja - notorne istine: ("urbi et orbi"). p. 234. ... за Босну. О дмах о овом новом наређењу извештени су Марк ђон Маркаја и Принц Каљо са албанским националистима. - When Djurisic decided to go trough Bosnia, he notified his Albanian collegues
  • Đuretić, Veselin (1997). Violence against the Serb uprising. Institut. p. 392. ISBN 9788671790246. команданта Павла Ђуришића с албанским принцом Марк Ђонијем, одржани у октобру пратили су истовремени покушаји да се успостави контакт са савезницима у Италији
  • Vukčević, Boško S. (1994). Tito: Architect of Yugoslav Disintegration. Rivercross Pub. p. 304. ISBN 978-0-944957-46-2. In September 1944 Djurishich negotiated with Albanian prince Mark Djoni for a common defense against Communists and the evetual retreat via Albania to Greece to meet our British ally there.
  • Михаиловић према немачким документима - Иван Авакумовић, Коста Николић, Институт за савремену историју (Belgrade, Serbia)
  • Nikola Milovanovic - DRAZA MIHAILOVIC
  • (Goran Komar):
    • Кроз кише куршума пролазио је без страха, као да суто маневарски. Фама да га челик заобилази нијепрестала ни октобра 1944. године, кад је награници Албаније куршум пролетио кроз његовегруди.
    • Преговори са албанским националисВојвода ЂуришИћ је био у сталном контакту саВрховним комадантом Дражом Михаиловићем.Попристанку и овлашћењу његовом,Ђуришић јеотпочео преговоре са принцом Марк Ђоном који јепреузео команду над свим оружаним снагама уАлбанији.Сама смисао споразума је била у ненападању измеђучетничких инационално орјентисаних албанскихснага и заједничку борбу против нацистичкогокупатора.Албанија је била под инвазијом првакау Албанији који ће прихватити споразум иприпремити народне масе на тај подухват,по чемуби исти споразум постао пуноснажан.Албански завјереници када су сазнали да суразоткривени и да је принц Ђон у Подгориципрешли су неопажено на територију Црне Горе инаправили засједу на колону званичника Албанијеи Црне Горе,тј. На принца Марк Ђона и ВојводуПавла Ђуришића који је из домаћинских разлогахтјео да испрати госта до границе државе.Завјереници поштујући правилонепролијевања сопствене крви пропустили сувизило њиховог принца И ранили ВојводуПавла.ране добијене у покушају ликвидације субиле веома тешке И опасне.Сама акција атентата је означила погоршање односа двије стране и онемогућавала даљни токразвијања плана на споразуму на којему сурадили Ђон И Војвода. 13.октобра Павле Ђуришић је именовао НовицуПоповића да га заступа у преговорима саалбанским званичницима и заврши започетипосао.Споразум је постигнут у Скадру 15 . октобра и носио је главне тачке:1.Обједињење националних албанских снага ичетника под врховном командом ДражеМихаиловића;2. Скадар да је сједиште Врховног штаба;3.Да Павле ЂуришИћ пошаље снаге у Скадар причему да се манифестује сарадња борбе противкомуниста и тиме подигне морал националиста уАлбанији;4.Да албанско вођство осигура цјелокупну исхранучетницима за 100,000 војника за шестмјесеци,узимајући у обзир одузимање пунихмагацина од Њемаца које су имали у Скадру;То су биле основне тачке споразума који је постигнути представници са обје стране су га почелипромовисати.Међутим обрт политичких игара у цјелосвјетскојситуацији је узео другачији обрт.
  • Priredili Tanja Pavićević i Čedomir Radusinović: SVJEDOČANSTVA O STRADANJU CRNOGORSKIH ČETNIKA I CIVILA U SLOVENIJI 1945. GODINE Kako je otpala mogućnost prelaska na teritoriju Srbije, zbog prisustva Crvene armije, to su crnogorske vođe antikomunističkog pokreta stupile u vezu i pregovore sa vođama albanskih nacionalista o mogućnosti prelaska preko Albanije za Grčku, gdje su se već Englezi bili iskrcali. Vođa albanskih nacionalista iz Skadra, imena se ne sjećam, došao je na razgovor sa vojvodom Pavlom Đurišićem u Podgoricu. Pregovori su počeli uspješno uz puno uvjeravanje Albanaca, da se preko Albanije može preći bez žrtava za nekoliko dana. No, to se ubrzo pokazalo neostvarivim kada je vojvoda Pavle Đurišić pošao da isprati svog gosta iz Skadra. Kod Tuzi sačekala ih je arnautska zasjeda i ranila vojvodu Đurišića. Đurišić je ovo protumačio kao klopku od strane albanskih nacionalista, pa je i taj pravac povlačenja otpao kao mogućnost.
  • Sukobi na Kosovu, Spasoje Đaković: " „Перси (супруга Павла Ђуришића) Павле се осећа добро."link линк
  • Nikola Milovanović - DRAŽA MIHAILOVIĆ (link Muharem Bajraktari je bio ličnost sa dvora kralja Zogua i borio se za. restauraciju njegove vladavine a protiv italijanske okupacije. O njemu se u jednom ranijem Perhinekovom izveštaju kaže: "Muharem Bajraktar traži od Pavla pismeni zadatak kada bude napad protiv neprijatelja... Muharem Bajraktar traži i pismene upute za rad od Pavla, koje da potpiše i stavi pećat, kako bi znao sa kime ima posla. Obećava da će uputiti, gde Pavlu bude potreba, onoliko barjaka koliko bude potrebno, pod voćstvom samog Muharema."25 Posle ovoga došlo je do direktnog kontakta između Muharemovih delegata i Pavla Đurišića. Kroz te veze četnici su nastojali da ubede Bajraktarija u potrebu za borbom protiv narodnooslobodilačkog pokreta, rame uz rame sa Mihailovićevom organizacijom. S obzirom na ciljeve koje je Bajraktari sebi postavio, ovo nije predstavljalo neke naročite teškoće. Još u decembru 1942. godine Perhinek je javio Mihailoviću: "16. decembra stigli su u Kolašin kuriri pukovnika Muharema Bajraktara, koji su bili pozvani sa naše strane preko naših agenata. Kuriri su: Ali Saban iz Valone, Sali Rama iz Valone i Beg Rustem iz Jasenice. Ovi su kuriri sigurni i oprobani naši prijatelji. Nisu doneli sa sobom nikakvih dokumenata ili pisma od samog pukovnika, jer je i njemu stalo do toga da dotle prvo u direktnu vezu sa nekim Vašim predstavnikom ili komandantom pa tek onda da dođe do ličnih sastanaka sa samim Muharemom..."26
  • и овлаш- ћењу његовом, Ђуришић је отпочео преговоре с принцом Ђон Марк Ђоном, који је био преузео команду над
  • почетком октобра 1944. у Подгорици са албанским националис- тичким вођама, које је предводио Марк Ђон Маркај Od Vezirovog do zidanog mosta
  • http://books.google.rs/books?ei=euWBUMySOsXCswb7noCQCA&hl=sr&id=nQa5AAAAIAAJ&dq=%D1%92%D1%83%D1%80%D0%B8%D1%88%D0%B8%D1%9B+%D0%BC%D0%B0%D1%80%D0%BA&q=%22+%D0%9C%D0%B0%D1%80%D0%BA+%D1%92%D0%BE%D0%BD+%D0%9C%D0%B0%D1%80%D0%BA%D0%B0%D1%98%D0%B0+%D0%B8+%D0%9F%D1%80%D0%B8%D0%BD%D1%86+%D0%9A%D0%B0%D1%99%D0%BE+%D1%81%D0%B0+%D0%B0%D0%BB%D0%B1%D0%B0%D0%BD%D1%81%D0%BA%D0%B8%D0%BC+%D0%BD%D0%B0%D1%86%D0%B8%D0%BE%D0%BD%D0%B0%D0%BB%D0%B8%D1%81%D1%82%D0%B8%D0%BC%D0%B0.%22#search_anchor " Марк ђон Маркаја и Принц Каљо са албанским националистима."
  • Serbian Historical and Cultural Association Njegos
  • Jedan Albanac, koji je zbog krvne osvete pucao u Đurišića. demantovao je tu legendu: on je pucao u prsa četničkom vojvodi, koji se brzo oporavio od rane koja mu je probila pluća. - Specijalni zadatak Balkan, Hermann Neubacher
  • link 1 and link 2 to source which supports information that in November 1944 delegation of Djurisics chetniks went to Albania to agree safe conduct trough Albania in case of retreat.--Antidiskriminator (talk) 12:00, 13 January 2014 (UTC)
  • Zbornik grade za istoriju radnickog pokreta Crne Gore. 1959. p. 179. Павле Ђуришић и његово четничко друштво позивају у савез .... арнаутске банде....који у заједници са четницима и Њемцима покушавају да нападну нашу ослобођену територију. Један такав њихов покушај из Врмоша (албанског земљишта) у правцу Андријевице и Васојевића, скупо их је коштао. [Pavle Djurisic and his Chetnik companions invited Albanian bands into alliance.... together with Chetniks and Germans trying to attack our liberated territory. One such attempt had high cost for them... ]
  • Redžić, Vučeta (2002). Građanski rat u Crnoj Gori: Dešavanja od sredine 1942. godine do sredine 1945. godine. Stupovi. p. 451. Одатле се преко Зелетина и Врмоше пре- бацила на терен Подгорице. Осим према албанској граници, део четника се повукао према Сјеници...

Iron Cross[edit]

Claims that Mihailovic's instructions are forged[edit]


Why Chetniks in Montenegro collaborated with Germans from 1943?[edit]

Chetniks' collaboration with Nazi Germany is not appropriately explained.

One group of motifs for this collaboration is presented by Jozo Tomasevich explains it in his work The Chetniks, page 351:

  • "The Montenegrin Chetniks justified their collaboration with the Germans, both prior to and following DjuriSic's return, with the same arguments they had used to justify their earlier collaboration with the Italians — that is, the necessity of fighting the Communists and putting an end to the civil war that was bringing death and destruction to many of their supporters in Montenegro. They had another compelling reason however — the necessity of bringing in food supplies to the province from areas under German control and by means of German transport. In some parts of the province food was so scarce that near-starvation conditions existed."
  • DOC (2000). The South Slav Journal. Dositey Obradovich Circle. p. 71. "Mr Djuri§ic\ I know that you are a Serb-Montenegrin nationalist. You have not fought for us but against the communists.

Sources that Pavle Đurišić captured Berane[edit]

Djurisic's subordination to Communists[edit]

  • Milinko Đurović who participated in the events and later became communist general awarded with Order of the People's Hero says that communists' efforts to convince Djurisic to cooperate with them - failed. He admits that communists even tried to kill him when he went to 'Territory of the... in Serbia' to connect with Mihailovic, but again failed: Đurović, Milinko (1964), Ustanak naroda Jugolavije, 1941; zbornik. Pišu učesnici. [Rebellion of the people of Yugoslavia. Participants written.] (in Croatian), Belgrade: Vojno delo, p. 453, OCLC 8340708, Izdajnički karakter i cilj Đurišićeve akcije partijsko rukovodstvo je ocijenilo pravilno odmah poslije pada Berana, kada su propali pokušaji saradnje s njim. Kada je pošao za Srbiju, uočena je opasnost koja sa te strane prijeti i riješeno je da se njegova takva aktivnost onemogući i da se on likvidira. Međutim, jedna manja akcija protiv njega nije uspela a šira i organizovanija nije blagovremeno preduzeta. [(Communist) Party leadership has properly assessed treacherous character and aims of Djurisic's action immediately after the fall of Berane when efforts to cooperate with him failed. When he went to Serbia, a danger threatening from that side was perceived and it was decided to prevent such activity by killing him. However, one small action against him failed, a broader and more organized has not been timely taken.] {{citation}}: More than one of |author= and |last= specified (help)
  • Radoje Pajović: "Za vrijeme ustanka bori se protiv crnogorskih separatista pod zastavom KPJ, "

Đurišić and attempts to subordinate his forces to Allies[edit]

Miloš Kureš testimony[edit]

Miloš Kureš wrote memoires in which he described how Đurišić and other Chetniks were interrogated in Gradiška....

Siege of Scutari in 1478-1479[edit]

Kastrioti COA[edit]

Note: If Skanderbeg used certain COA does it necessarily mean that it was the same COA used by other notable members of Kastrioti family before or after him? On the other hand, if some other member of Kastrioti family used some COA (i.e. some of Italian descendants of Skanderbeg), does it necessarily mean that Skanderbeg used the same COA? Is it better to have two COAs, one of Skanderbeg and one of the family?

Chetniks[edit]

I am concerned that this article is WP:COATRACK article whose real purpose is to promote one biased POV which is also violation of NPOV and UNDUE policy. I think that the main problem with this article, and some other articles also, might be that it is subjected to coordinated actions of the one group of editors circumventing the normal process of consensus. If I am right then I believe it is better to resolve the main problem instead of chasing consequences around.

Therefore I will first try to check if my concerns are founded by following this steps:

  1. checking the archives of this article talkpage and history of the article to see if there are some non-resolved issues connected with this major problem.
  2. by following steps of dispute resolution.

I am maybe wrong. Therefore, depending on the outcome of dispute resolution process, I will further proceed with activities to resolve the problem

Contributors[edit]

Note about possible sockpupetry[edit]

I noticed that many users who participated in the discussions and editing of the article were accounts specially created for this purpose. I think that it might be a sign of mass sockpupetry. While following above mentioned steps I will try to exclude that kind of users and IP users as well.

Template:Collaboration in Yugoslavia[edit]

Discussion about deleting Template:Collaboration in Yugoslavia: No consensus[edit]

Discussion about separate articles about "different Chetnik movements throughout the 20th Century"[edit]

Supported by:

  1. User:John Gradwell - seperate articles depicting the different Chetnik movements throughout the 20th Century
  2. User:FkpCascais - I do agree on this.
  3. User:Jean-Jacques Georges - the article should be split in two for clarity's sake, with one version concerning specifically the Mihailovic movement, and one (called something like "Chetniks (historical)") addressing all the other various movements which called themselves "Chetniks".
  4. User:Estavisti - Chetniks and the Yugoslav Army in the Fatherland are two related, but separate topics. Shoving both into one article is ridiculous.
  5. User:Hadžija - The Yugoslav Army in the Fatherland is a very specific topic and should not be lumped with all the flotsam and jetsam that comes under "Chetniks".


Opposed by:

  1. User:DIREKTOR - Starting five [[WP:CFORK]]S is out of the question.
  2. User:Zocky - In short, when the article becomes too large, it will probably make sense to split off some information into separate articles
  3. User:Laughing Man - I personally feel that the article should not have been split, but instead, improved and clarified

Contemporary Chetniks[edit]

Pupovac statement discussion[edit]

Adding Pupovac statement to the article:

Opposed:

  1. User:John Gradwell
  2. User:FkpCascais
  3. User:Fainites

Supported:

  1. User:PRODUCER
  2. User:DIREKTOR

Other users who had the same concerns as me[edit]

  1. User:SnowFire - there is a strong POV-pushing contingent that wants to emphasize that the Chetniks/royalists were totally Nazi-hugging traitors
  2. User:John Gradwell - A team of nationalists have hijacked the article, and have attempted to portray the Chetniks as some "evil axis sponsored Militia"
  3. User:FkpCascais - This one, Chetniks, and Draža Mihailović articles have been heavily edited mostly by one single editor with a few others supporting the same POV, having in mind only a few sources all of them very unfavouable towards them, and selectively choosing them. Many other related articles are also heavily edited by the same editors using the same POV.
  4. User:Ganderoleg - As we can see, some people have clear motivation to hide their dirty laundry by aggressive accusations of others, by using biased sources and using circular reasoning... opinion which could expressed in form without violation of WP:NPA and WP:AGF

Sources[edit]

Collaboration with the Government of National Salvation[edit]

Jozo Tomasevich (main source of the current version of the article cited almost 100 times) wrote that:

  1. "certain pro-Mihailovic officers in Nedic's administration, presumably on their own, also established and kept up contact with Mihailovic and his forces. The acting commander of Serbian gendarmerie ... and therefore its deputy commander, Colonel Jovan P. Trisic was arrested in November 1941 for having maintained such contact and sent to a prisoner of war camp in Germany"
  2. In February 1942 in a conference with the chief of staff of Paul Bader ... the Serbian authorities were simply to discover Mihailovic's whereabouts and report it to the Germans; it was a task of German troops to capture him.
  3. Nedic reccomended to the Germans that he should be allowed to "liquidate Mihailovic movement" but he was unable to persuade them to accept his plans
  4. ...occasionally the illegal Chetniks resumed sabotage activities, sometimes attacking units of the Serbian quisling forces or German and Bulgarian forces
  5. ....

Ancestors of Skanderbeg[edit]

Some issues[edit]

Possible inaccuracies

  1. If Babinger is right when estimate the size of the Ottoman army to 30.000, then Mehmed did not leave Albania with his main army (but only with 25%) if he left Balaban with 23,000 soldiers.  Not done - If Mehmed left 23 out of 30 thousand soldiers (Babinger), then he left with small part of his army, not with "his main army". The number of 100.000 Ottoman soldiers remained in the article despite it was only a rumor which was refuted by the reports and presented source
  2. " the Turks could march against Bosnia, Serbia, Dalmatia, Negroponte, or Albania" Again Turks marching ... but in this case against Serbia (? Serbia was captured by the Ottomans in 1459, seven years before this event), (Bosnia in 1463, three years before this event) and again of course Albania (which significant part of the territory already belonged to the Ottomans for decades). Wikilinks are leading to the modern day republics of Serbia and Bosnia.  Not done Ottomans are unlikely to march against countries they already conquered, like Serbia, Bosnia, major part of Albania...
  3. Elbasan concerned not only the Albanians, but also the Venetians who feared for their possession in Albania as Durazzo lay only 30 miles (48 km) away - Today, when there are modern roads, the shortest route between Durres and Elbassan is 83 km, or more, depending on the route.  Done term being away was replaced with proximity
  4. Venice reported to Hungary that Mehmed had offered peace and was willing to accept it. Hungary also opted for peace, but Mehmed only sought peace with Venice in order to isolate Skanderbeg and thus peace was not signed. - It is not so big problem because of this assertions are not referenced. The problem is that it seems to contradict to what Setton says about the same thing. According to Setton, it was totally the opposite. Venice wanted peace, but Mehmed refused it by requesting too much for peace (Venice to pay him yearly tributes among other things) - page 287.  Not done
  5. The number of the Ottoman troops who participated in this siege was 30,000 according to the Babinger (page 252. The same number is in the existing version of the article about Skanderbeg.  Done
  6. According to Babinger, and "probably as early as February" "piched camp outside Kruje". The article says June?  Not done
  7. According to Babinger, Balaban came to Albania before Mehmed (probably February). The article says they came together in June (Mehmed had marched into Albania with Ballaban Badera under his command)?  Not done
  8. According to Marin Barleti, Skanderbeg's main biographer, Skanderbeg had placed 4,400 men under Tanush Thopia. Along with them were placed Venetian infantry under Baldizar Perduzzi and 200 Neapolitan marksmen. - Venetian infantry (Babinger says 1,000) and Napolitan marksmen (200) together with 4,400 men under Thopia equals 5,600. Infobox says 4,400?  Not done I checked again. The dictionary defines along with as accompanying; together with. In that case together with 4,400 men under Thopia were 1,000 Venetian infantry and 200 Napolitan marksmen, which makes total number 5,600.
  9. According to Babinger, the commander of the garrison was Baldizar Perduzz (Baldassare Perducci) (The commander in Kruje was Baldassare Perducci). This information corresponds with the Ottoman version of the main reason for the attack on Skanderbeg's (Venetian) stronghold.  Not done

Unclear

  1. The fortress especially worried Venice since Elbasan was constructed on the banks of the Shkumbin River which would allow the Ottomans to send ships into the Adriatic and threaten Venetian colonies. - This sentence does not make much sense. In 1466 Ottomans already had Vlore under their control for 50 years. Why would they need Shkumbin River to send ships into the Adriatic?  Not done
  2. against the Ottoman Empire - not only against Ottoman Empire. Skanderbeg fought against Venetian Republic also, not to mention his Italian campaign and clashes with Dukagjini clan.  Not done
  3. , defeating them in battle multiple times, - not only defeating. From the start of his struggle he was defeated many times and gradually lost control of the territory and castles.  Done
  4. He organized a timar in eastern Albania to strangle Skanderbeg's domains. - A timar? Numerous timars existed in eastern Albania much before 1466. Timars were part of the sanjaks, so there is no need to mention only one timar in eastern Albania because readers could be mislead to believe that other timars in eastern Albania did not participate in struggle against Skanderbeg.  Not done
  5. Ottoman–Venetian War (1463–1479) should be explained because it shows a wider picture of the events and provide a basis for the Ottoman version of the events. It is very important to emphasize one simple fact: During this Ottoman-Venetian war territory of Albania became one of the main battlefields.(Smailagic, Nerkez (1990), Leksikon Islama (in Croatian), Sarajevo: Svjetlost, p. 31, ISBN 9788601018136, OCLC 25241734, retrieved 28. December 2011, Tokom rata između Osmanlija i Venecije od god. 1463. do 1479.,Albanija postaje jedno od glavnih poprišta. {{citation}}: Check date values in: |accessdate= (help); More than one of |author= and |last= specified (help))  Not done
  6. The Ottoman side emphasized that the main reason for Ottoman campaigns against Skanderbeg was his "breaking of faith" and allowing a Venetian forces to garrison in Kruje. Ottoman forces in Albania were threatened by them and because of that treat Ottomans organized campaigns against Skanderbeg after 1464.(Sir Hamilton Alexander Rosskeen Gibb (1954), The Encyclopaedia of Islam, vol. 4, Leiden: Brill, p. 140, ISBN 9789004144484, OCLC 399624, retrieved 24. December 2011, Tursun p.125, cf Critoboulos, 147) emphasize Iskender's "breaking of faith" as the reason for the Ottoman operations against him from 868/1464 onwards. By permitting Venetian troops to garrison Kruje he created a real treat to the Ottoman forces in Albania. In 1464 and 1465 the neighbouring sanjak begis and especially the governor of Ohri, Balaban, launched the swift attacks {{citation}}: Check date values in: |accessdate= (help); Unknown parameter |coauthors= ignored (|author= suggested) (help)). The article about Skanderbeg's incursion into Ottoman territory contains information about Balaban being appointed as governor of Ohrid, instead of Şeremet (Ballaban had replaced Şeremet as the commander in Ohrid after the latter fell out of favor with the sultan).  Not done The Ottoman point of view is not presented to the readers
  7. The information that Balaban was sanjakbey of the Sanjak of Ohrid is important and should be presented in the article. The existing text ( Mehmed, sensing the weakness in his frontier, assigned Ballaban Badera as commander, replacing Şeremet. or Mehmed had marched into Albania with Ballaban Badera under his command) is misleading and confusing and uninitiated reader could get impression that Şeremet or Ballaban came to Albania from outside of Albania as commanders of the Ottoman armies. In fact, they were already present in Albania because part of the territory of Albania, with substantial population of ethnic Albanians, was the important part of their sanjak. They had important position of sanjakbeys of the Sanjak of Ohrid. As any other Ottoman sanjakbey they were obliged to recruit soldiers in their sanjak and to participated in war near their region.  Done
  8. Both Setton and Babinger in their works presented on this page, emphasize information that Mehmed II plundered and destroyed area around Durres (part of Albania Veneta) before he left Albania. That is important information that should be presented in the article because it provides necessary context of this siege within larger Ottoman–Venetian War (1463–1479).  Done  Done
  9. June event: "Soon after, Mehmed's men marched into Albania...Skanderbeg had remained in Albania, however, but he had sent many inhabitants of Krujë to Italy as refugees in twelve ships. With them, he sent his wife, Donika, and his son, John. ."....August event: "On 16 August, around the time that Elbasan was finished,... Venetian faith in Skanderbeg's resistance began to subside,..Since the Signoria still had not delivered its promised aid, Skanderbeg sent his son John to Venice...John returned to Albania empty-handed"...The voyage of this 12 year old boy should be clarified.  Not done It is still unclear how many times John traveled to Italy in period June-August  Not done Regarding John, I didn't say that he hadn't travelled to Venice. I proposed to investigate his voyage, because I find it unclear from where he travelled and where to he returned, especially taking in consideration that Skanderbeg travelled himself to Italy in October
  10. Last weeks of 1466 - During the last weeks of the year in Albania there was no fighting ... Mehmed launched a campaign against the Venetian possessions in Albania to pressure the Republic to accept peace or ceasefire...On Christmas Eve, Paul invited Skanderbeg to a ceremony - Very confusing. There was no fighting and Mehmed launched a campaign against Venetians (although he left Albania months ago and his forces were busy besieging Kruje). According to the above mentioned sources written by Setton and Babinger, Mehmed attacked Venetian possessions in Albania during the summer of 1466 not during the last weeks on 1466. If he left in August 1466 the only one who could launch a campaign against the Venetian possessions in Albania was Ballaban. And he was besieging Kruje. This needs to be clarified.  Done
  11. According to the Babiner, the commander of the besieged forces was Venetian officer, Baldazarre Perducci. He is totally forgotten in the infobox. Instead, there is only Moneta mentioned on the bottom of the list, although he was not in the besieged fortress but in relief forces. Maybe it would be a good idea to divide information about besieged and relief forces and their commanders, like in other siege articles about Skanderbeg.  Done  Not done
  12. February 1467 - This amount had not been gathered, however, and Paul thus offered Skanderbeg 2,300 ducats. - Offered or granted? What happened with that offer and 2,300 ducats?  Not done
  13. February 1467 - Ottoman force sent to defeat the League of Lezhë definitively, however, had been defeated. - What force, who defeated it and where?  Not done
  14. Spring 1467 - The once distant Albanian nobles, among them Dukagjini, were now convinced of their impending end and allied themselves with Skanderbeg. - If forces of other Albanian nobles were distant and if they allied themselves with Skanderbeg only in spring 1467, what is the reason for emphasizing that one of belligerents was League of Lezhë? Who (besides Venetians) fought against Ottoman Empire until April 1467?  Not done
  15. Ballaban had raised his camp in hills southwest of Krujë and beneath Mt. Sarisalltëk, he placed a guarding force. The rest of his army surrounded Krujë.[29] Skanderbeg and his allies marched through the mouth of the Mat River and cut through the woods of Jonima to the boundaries of Krujë.[61] Skanderbeg's staff was assigned different groups for an assault on the main Ottoman camp: northern Albanian forces would be put under Dukagjini's command, Venetian battalions were under the command of Moneta, and Skanderbeg's most trusted forces would be assigned to another group under his command; Krujë's garrison would naturally defend the fortress. Moneta's and Dukagjini's men would attack the besieging forces from the north and Skanderbeg's men would attack from south of Krujë while also blocking any possible Ottoman reinforcements from the east.[62] Skanderbeg first assaulted the guarding force which Ballaban had left and he gained control of this strategic point.[29] Skanderbeg then managed to defeat Ottoman relief forces under Ballaban's brother, Jonuz, and captured him and his son.[63][29] Four days later, Ballaban ordered an assault on Krujë but was killed in the resulting clashes by Gjergj Lleshi (Georgius Alexius). - This description is confusing.
    1. Ballaban's army was divided and positioned: 1) in "camp in hills southwest of Krujë", 2) "beneath Mt. Sarisalltëk... a guarding force" and 3) force which "surrounded Krujë".
    2. Allied forces of Skanderbeg's supporters were divided to three groups, under command of: 1) Dukagjini, 2) Moneta and 3) Skanderbeg
    3. The battle:
      1. Dukagjini and Moneta attacked would attack "the besieging forces from the north"
      2. Skanderbeg attacked "the guarding force" "beneath Mt. Sarisalltëk" "from south of Krujë" and gained control of this strategic point
      3. Skanderbeg defeated Ottoman relief forces under Ballaban's brother, Jonuz, and captured him and his son.
      4. Four days later Ballaban ordered an assault on Krujë but was killed in the resulting clashes by Gjergj Lleshi (Georgius Alexius) - What were they doing for four days, after they successfully attacked besieging forces from both South and North? If Skanderbeg managed to defeat one Ottoman relief force, why would he allow Ballabana to attack fortress four days later? How can Ballaban attack Kruje if there were Dukagjini, Moneta and Skanderbeg who were victorious against the besieging forces, guarding forces and relief forces surrounding Kruje from both North and South? Did Ballaban attack relief forces or Kruje? [clarification needed] It is not clear if Ballaban was with encircled Ottoman forces or not (the article says his camp was "in hills southwest of Krujë". Attack of the encircled Ottoman forces to the fort instead of Skanderbeg's relief forces which encircled the besieging forces does not make much sense, especially taking in consideration that they failed to capture it in much better conditions with much larger forces during almost a year period. Why would they wait for four days before performing this assault on Kruje, ....  Not done

Other

  1. He thus requested the arrival of promised Venetian forces when they signed a treaty of alliance on 20 August 1463 and the promised contribution of 3,000 ducats. - Is it mistake in the year? Maybe it should be 1466? If it was really a treaty of alliance signed in August 1463, when Venice and Ottoman Empire were confronted and starting Ottoman–Venetian War (1463–1479) then this fact should be clearly presented to the readers. Skanderbeg allied with Ottoman enemy.  Not done
  2. Here Kenneth Setton explains that "documents relating to Skanderbeg's struggle with the Turks in 1466 are conveniently assembled in J. Radonić "Djuradj Kastriot Skenderbeg" so I propose to add Further reading section and include this work in it. (Radonić, Jovan (1942), Đurađ Kastriot Skenderbeg i Arbanija u XV veku (in Serbian), Belgrade: Srpska Kraljevska Akademija, OCLC 11859269 {{citation}}: More than one of |author= and |last= specified (help))  Not done
  3. Here Kenneth Setton (page 279) says that Mehmed withdrew from the siege in June 1466, not in August like it is written in the article. That corresponds with what Babinger wrote here (page 260) that Mehmed II was near Durres on July 3rd. Both Setton and Babinger present information that Mehmed II plundered and destroyed area around Durres before he left Albania. That is important information that should be presented in the article.  Done
  4. The Siege section can be expanded with above mentioned works of Setton and Babinger.  Not done
  5. the men stationed in Elbasan would constantly harass the Albanians, to leave them no place for refuge - Sultan did not build Elbasan to constantly harass people who are Albanians, leaving them no place for refuge. Ottoman Empire did not divide people on ethnicity basis.  Not done Albanians were major part of the Ottoman armies active in the region of Albania.
  6. Babinger (page 253) explains that Sultan withdrawn with 3,000 Albanian prisoners. This information is not presented in the article.  Done
  7. According to Marin Barleti, Skanderbeg's main biographer, - Main biographer?!  Not done Barleti was Skanderbeg's main biographer in 16th century. Today, Skanderbeg's main biographer is scholar who wrote the best biography of Skanderbeg. Oliver Schmitt. Refering to Barleti as Skanderbeg's main biographer despite the fact that major part of biography he wrote are his inventions and forgery can mislead the readers to believe that Barleti's panegyric inventions are reliable.
  8. 200 Neapolitan marksmen - There is no information in the infobox about this unit.  Not done The number of the marksmen is not so important as the fact that Kingdom of Naples supported the defense of this Kruje too. That support is mentioned by Babinger too.
  9. Marin Barleti says that Mehmed passed through Dibra and massacred 8,000 people, a figure close to the number given by the Ottoman chronicler Oruc ben Adil of 7,500 - Babinger mentions 8,000 men from the Cedhin + many women and children. Cedhin is different than Dibra. This should be investigated.  Not done but not too important I guess
  10. Babinger mentions (page 261) the son of Skanderbeg's sister (Skanderbeg's nephew) who was Muslim and part of the Ottoman forces. He ensconced on Cape Rodoni (which means that Skanderbeg lost Rodoni Castle during this events). There are many web sites which present information that Barleti claim that Rodoni castle was destroyed in 1467 by Ottoman forces.  Not done

Minor issues

  1. The expression "second siege of Kruje" is not used in sources about this event, except one tertiary source which is very inaccurate in this case.  Not done the name of this conflict remained the second siege of the Kruje despite provided rationale
  2. and had grown close with the Western Christian states, especially with Alfonso V of Aragon and the Papal States - He had not only grown close with Alfonso V of Aragon but Ferdinand I of Naples too. In 1466 it was Ferdinand I who was the king, not Alfonso. He was vassal of the king of Naples from 1448. His vassal status is important and should be clearly presented in the article.  Not done
  3. Skanderbeg sent his son John to Venice. Even though the Albanian resistance was at its apogee, John returned to Albania empty-handed. - Skanderbeg needed help and sent his 12 years old son to get the money? I am not sure about it.
  4. Despite his inability to subdue Krujë, Mehmed decided that the Ottoman presence would not depart Albania. - This sentence does not make any sense. Why would Ottoman Empire leave Albania after 50 years of their presence there because there is one highland fortress which remained out of their control.  Not done
  5. "By the beginning of May, however, it was clear that Turkish preparations had been made for Albania. This was made clear when after ending his campaigns in Wallachia, Karaman, and the Morea, Mehmed moved his forces to the Albanian border. None of the promised reinforcements from Naples and Venice arrived and Skanderbeg was thus left to fight Turkish forces alone."...."News arrived from eastern Albania that the Ottomans had begun massacring the inhabitants there....Soon after, Mehmed's men marched into Albania."..."Skanderbeg did not expect such a campaign and his army was not ready to halt the advances." - Contradictory informations. Everybody knew, it was clear ... but Sk. did not expect it?  Not done
  6. (middle of 1467) The map which presents "Main Albanian towns during the 15th century, including settlements in neighboring regions" is not useful for this article. This article is about the siege of Kruje. The names of the towns on the map are so small that they are not visible. It is impossible to notice the position of Kruje unless you don't click three times on the map.  Not done
  7. (August 1467) Venetian faith in Skanderbeg began to subside, however, since the sultan took a much more aggressive approach in his relations with Venice. - Much more aggressive approach in his relations with Venice? Ottoman Empire and Venice were in the middle of the war - Ottoman–Venetian War (1463–1479).  Not done Ottoman–Venetian War (1463–1479) is not mentioned and linked despite the fact that this siege was not only part of this war, but it was organized because Skanderbeg allied with Venice in this war.
  8. Ballaban had raised his camp in hills southwest of Krujë and beneath Mt. Sarisalltëk, he placed a guarding force. - Not much information about this mountain.  Not done not too important I guess
  9. Skanderbeg's only hope was for help to come from Italy - Setton and Babinger mention help of Ragusa in their above mentioned works. The story is not comlete without mention of this help and later Ragusan decision to forbid Skanderbeg to enter Ragusa.  Not done
  10. "Baldassare Perducci" - 8 hits /// "Baldizar Perduzzi" - 0 hits (4 hits to this text)  Done
  11. Babinger published information about the (page 260) rumors that Skanderbeg was to surrender Kruje under mediation of the King of Naples, who became Ottoman ally. Taking in consideration that Skanderbeg was at the Ferdinand's court at the same time when there was Ottoman ambassador who signed peace treaty with Naples it is not strange that Babinger thought such information is worth mentioning.  Not done
  12. In the article about the Siege of Berat (1455) Skaderbeg is positioned at the bottom of the list of the commanders, probably because he was not present at the end of the siege. Instead there is a long list of local commanders before Skanderbeg, although Skanderbeg was responsible for big mistake when leaving the siege with sizeable contigent before capturing Berat "believing the situation was well in hand and that the castle would fall". But in case of this article the same logic was not followed. Although sultan did not even participate in the siege for most of its duration (Babinger says that he did not actively participate in the siege, but only occasionally and hesitantly), his name is positioned on the top of the list of the commanders in the infobox, while local Ottoman-Albanian commanders are not mentioned at all, except Balaban. On the other hand, Skanderbeg's name is at the top of the list although he was not in the besieged fortress at all. According to the Babiner, the commander of the besieged forces was Venetian officer, Baldazarre Perducci. He is totally forgotten in the infobox. Instead, there is only Moneta mentioned on the bottom of the list, although he was not in the besieged fortress but in relief forces. The same comparation could be done with other articles, like i.e. Siege of Svetigrad (1448). That was also a big defeat of Skanderbeg's men, and Skanderbeg is again positioned on the bottom of the list with clear remark that he only led the relief force, while real commander of the besieged town is positioned at the top.  Done Baldazarre Perducci is added to the infobox,  Not done other part of the issue remained non-attained
  13. Important assertion about the number of the Ottoman soldiers is not referenced at all. (except in case of rumours Venetians have heard) -  Done  Not done - The number of 30,000 is referenced, but the number of 100,000 remained on rumor level. To illustrate how wrong is to ignore arguments based on reliable sources and to overestimate the size of the Ottoman army I will present the number of Ottoman soldiers in much bigger and much more important battles against the coalitions of many strong medieval countries and empires or the whole crusading armies: Battle of Kosovo: 27,000—40,000, Battle of Nicopolis: 12,000—15,000, Battle of Kosovo (1448): 40,000 — 60,000, Battle of Varna: 60,000, ...
  14. Dhimitër Frëngu article says that he was Skanderbeg's scribe who accompanied him to his journey to Rome. If that is true, maybe this can be added to the article.  Not done but I guess it is not so important

|}

--Antidiskriminator (talk) 14:06, 23 February 2012 (UTC)

A lot of your suggestions are irrelevant so I skipped many. However, I have decided to implement the good ones.

Just a note, both Schmitt and Frasheri concur that it was John who went to the court of Venice. Neither mention how young he was, but I assume he played mainly a symbolic role and the real negotiations were done by the older men. Also, the destruction of Rodon happened after the next siege of Kruje.

Additional issues

  1. By the beginning of May... None of the promised reinforcements from Naples and Venice arrived and Skanderbeg was thus left to fight Ottoman forces only with the league's troops. - Incorrect. Babinger emhasize that Venetian forces were already inside Kruje in February 1466 and that Venetian senate ordered Venetian providorre in Albania to personally organize defense of Kruje ("...probably as early as February Ballaban pitched the camp outside Kruje...the Venetian providorre received orders from Signoria to direct the defensive operations in person. The commander in Kruje was Baldassare Perducci....".
  2. The infobox presents this siege as part of the larger group of wars (Ottoman wars in Europe) although Template:Infobox military conflict clearly say "For battles or campaigns, this should be the war during which the event takes place" (which is Ottoman–Venetian War (1463–1479)) and only "For wars, the parameter may be used to link to a larger group of wars"
  3. The location parameter of the infobox links to the Republic of Albania, established 500 years after this siege
  4. "Combatants should be listed in order of importance to the conflict, be it in terms of military contribution, political clout, or a recognized chain of command." Combatants are not listed in order of importance of the conflict. Baldassare Perducci was commander of the garrison, and he is placed below Tanush Thopia who was subordinate to Perducci. On the other hand, Mehmed II has not significantly contributed to the siege which was organized by Ballaban from February 1466 to April 1467. Still Ballaban was positioned below Mehmed II.
  5. units1/units2/units3 parameters are not used, though it could be useful to the readers to explain the structure of the besieged forces

Independent Albania[edit]

  • Shteti Shqiptar
  • Shqipënia e Lirë

The exclusion of Servia from the Adriatic Sea and the establishment of the independent State of Albania was the achievement of Count Berchtold, the Austro-Hungarian Minister of Foreign Affairs. The new State has been a powder magazine from the beginning....And there is one danger-point for which the Great Powers themselves are solely responsible. This, as I have already explained, is Albania. An artificial creation with unnatural boundaries, it is a grave question whether this so-called state can either manage its own affairs or live in peace with its Serb and Greek neighbors....One can only hope that the Great Powers may have wisdom granted to them to find a peaceful solution of the embarrassing problem which they have created in setting up the new state of Albania. That the Albanians themselves will have an opportunity to develop their own national independence I find it impossible to believe...I think it doubtful whether under the most favorable external circumstances the Albanians are at present qualified to establish and maintain an independent state. And their destiny is so inextricably entangled with the ambitions of some of the Great Powers that the experiment stands no chance of getting a fair trial.

— Jacob Gould Schurman, US ambassador in Greece 1912—1913

The Balkan Wars 1912-1913 by Jacob Gould Schurman, Princeton University Press, Princeton, London, Humphrey Milford, Oxfod University Press 1914

Nazi Germany and Fascist Italy exploited discontent of Albanians with inaccurate ethnic borders of Albania.[2]


The biggest group of Albanians who were left outside of the new state after delineation of the boundaries were Albanians from Kosovo, the cradle of the 19th century Albanian nationalism.[3]

References[edit]

  1. ^ Bajram, Xhafa (2008), University of Shkodra "Luigi Gurakuqi", Program contents — Branch history (in Albanian), Shkoder: Luigj Gurakuqi University, p. 2, archived from the original on 15 February 2012, retrieved 15 February 2012, II Seminars: 1. Independent state of Albania in the years 1912 - 1914 {{citation}}: More than one of |author= and |last= specified (help)
  2. ^ Jürgen Fischer, Bernd (1999), Albania at war, 1939-1945, West Lafayette, Ind.: Purdue University Press, p. xi, ISBN 9780585063881, OCLC 42922446, retrieved 3 February 2012, Fascist Italy and Nazi Germany....exploited Albanian dissatisfaction with the country's ethnically imprecise frontiers {{citation}}: |first2= missing |last2= (help); More than one of |author= and |last1= specified (help)CS1 maint: multiple names: authors list (link)
  3. ^ Jürgen Fischer, Bernd (1999), Albania at war, 1939-1945, West Lafayette, Ind.: Purdue University Press, p. 70, ISBN 9780585063881, OCLC 42922446, retrieved 3 February 2012, When Albania's state boundaries were delineated... in 1913, many Albanians were left outside of the new state. The largest group of unredeemed could be found in Kosova, which had served as cradle of Albanian nationalism in the nineteenth century... {{citation}}: |first2= missing |last2= (help); More than one of |author= and |last1= specified (help)CS1 maint: multiple names: authors list (link)

Isolated article toolserver

Football and Skanderbeg[edit]

According to Harry Hodgkinson and Fan S. Noli, Skanderbeg significantly contributed to the development of the football during middle ages.

Drivast[edit]

A statute of Drivast contained certain articles aimed against Albanians who were not were not allowed to build house or any other building in the district or to posses pronia in town or district without getting appropriate licence from the commune.

  • Antonović, Miloš (2003), Town and district in littoral of Zeta and northern Albania in XIVth and XVth century (in Serbian), Belgrade: Istorijski institut, p. 236, ISBN 9788677430313, OCLC 55953999, retrieved 21 January 2012, Осим тога ниједан Албанац не би могао да сазида кућу или неку другу грађевину у граду или дистрикту без дозволе комуне, такође ниједан Албанац не би смео да има пронију у граду или дистрикту. Забрана зидања кућа оснажена је 6.2.1447. године. Одредбе Дривастијанског статута које су биле усмерене против Албанаца нису биле изузетак у комуналном праву зетског приморја. {{citation}}: |first2= missing |last2= (help); More than one of |author= and |last1= specified (help)CS1 maint: multiple names: authors list (link)

Skanderbeg in epic poetry on Serbian language[edit]

Skanderbeg was glorified in the folk songs of Montenegro and Herzegovina, like in those recorded by Sima Milutinović Sarajlija and published in 1837.[1]


Skanderbeg is mentioned in many works of members of House of Petrović-Njegoš. Vasilije III Petrović-Njegoš mentions him in his History about Montenegro (Serbian: Историја о Црној Гори) published in 1754.[2] Petar I Petrović-Njegoš wrote about Skanderbeg in his Short History of Montenegro (Serbian: Кратка Историја Црне Горе) published in 1835.[3] Skanderbeg is also mentioned by Prince of Montenegro, Petar II Petrović-Njegoš, one of the greatest poets of Serbian literature, in his poem The Mountain Wreath (1847),[4] and in False Tsar Stephen the Little (1851).[5]

Dorotej and Skanderbeg[edit]

Godinu dana posle bitke kod Ohrida, Mehmed II je bio ljut posle neusposnog pohoda u Albaniji pa je naredio da se odredjeni broj hriscanskih stanovnika ohrida, arhiepskop i njegovi saradnici isele u Istanbul i Anadoliju.

Starac dana kao osoben ikonografski motiv zografa Onufrija u Kosturu

Myth of Skanderbeg[edit]

The purpose of the national Myth of Skanderbeg was to provide Albanians with national identity and to underpin the justification for the establishment of Albania as independent state.[6]

Works about 15th century anti-Ottoman uprisings in Albania presented Skanderbeg as mythical hero.[7]

Skanderbeg is most important mythical hero of the Albanian nationalism.[8] National myth was personified by Skanderbeg.[9]

Presenting Skanderbeg as national hero was also a result of the efforts of both communist and post-communist Albanian historiography to present Albania's anti-Islamic past by producing Christian myths.[10] Feudal rebel was portrayed by Albanian nationalist myth-makers as the biggest icon of both Marxist and Christian nationalists.[11]

Myth of Skanderbeg has been preserved in Albanian literature and culture until modern times.[12]

References[edit]

  1. ^ Milutinović, Sima (1837), Пјеванија Црногорска и Херцеговачка, сабрана Чубром Чојковићем Церногорцем [Folk songs of Montenegro and Herzegovina collected by Čubro Čojković Cernogorac] (in Serbian), Leipzig: Tauchnica, p. 297, OCLC 257765748, retrieved 16 January 2012, потље смрти од Епира кнеза Скендербега силнога витеза [...after death of knyaz of Epirus, almighty knight Skanderbeg...] {{citation}}: More than one of |author= and |last= specified (help)
  2. ^ Petrović, Vasilije (1754), Историја о Црној Гори (History about Montenegro) (in Serbian), Naučno Društvo, retrieved 17 January 2012, заједно са Скендербегом 24 године војеваше против Турака, и у 63 битке до ногу Турке потукоше, како о томе каже историја о Скендербегу {{citation}}: More than one of |author= and |last= specified (help)
  3. ^ Petrović-Njegoš, Petar I (1835), Кратка Историја Црне Горе (Short History of Montenegro) (in Serbian), retrieved 17 January 2012, ... великога и славнога у великијем дјелам Георгија Кастриота, реченога Скендер-бега... {{citation}}: More than one of |author= and |last= specified (help)
  4. ^ The Mountain Wreath, Petar II Petrović-Njegoš (Serbian)
  5. ^ False Tsar Stephen the Little, Petar II Petrović-Njegoš (Serbian)
  6. ^ Bartl, Peter, Bartl, Peter: review of: Schmitt, Oliver Jens, Skanderbeg. Der neue Alexander auf dem Balkan, Es entstand ein Skanderbegmythos, der dazu dienen sollte, den Albanern eine nationale Identität zu verleihen und deren Berechtigung zur Errichtung eines eigenen Staates zu untermauern. [The result was the Myth of Skanderbeg which should serve to give the Albanians a national identity and to underpin the justification for the establishment of an independent state.] {{citation}}: |first2= missing |last2= (help); Cite has empty unknown parameter: |lay-date= (help); More than one of |author= and |last1= specified (help)CS1 maint: multiple names: authors list (link)
  7. ^ Crawshaw, Robert (2006), "The file on H: metahistory, literature, ethnography, cultural heritage and the Balkan borders", in Reginald Byron; Ullrich Kockel (eds.), Negotiating culture : moving, mixing and memory in contemporary Europe, Berlin: Lit Verlag, p. 62, ISBN 9783825884109, OCLC 85332656, retrieved October 14, 2011, Accounts of the fifteenth-century Albanian uprisings against the Turkish oppressors have centred on the mythical figure of George Skanderbeg {{citation}}: More than one of |author= and |last= specified (help)
  8. ^ Mappes-Niediek, Norbert (6 September 2003), "'Freedom!': Albanian society and the quest for independence from statehood in Kosovo and Macedonia", in Jan Koehler; Christoph Zürcher (eds.), Potentials of disorder, New York: Manchester University Press, p. 96, ISBN 9781417582723, OCLC 58471396, Albanian nationalism ...Its most important mythical hero is Skanderbeg. {{citation}}: |first2= missing |last2= (help); More than one of |author= and |last1= specified (help)CS1 maint: multiple names: authors list (link)
  9. ^ Brown, James F. (1992), Nationalism, democracy, and security in the Balkans, Aldershot ; Brookfield ; Hong Kong: Dartmouth Pub. Co., p. 81, ISBN 9781855213166, OCLC 468531164, retrieved October 14, 2011 {{citation}}: More than one of |author= and |last= specified (help)
  10. ^ Jazexhi, Olsi (2002), "Another approach towards certain 'exported' myths on Albanian historiography between Occident and Islâm" (PDF), Africana, Pisa, Italy: Edistudio di Brunetto Casini, pp. 93–101, the Albanian communist and post-communist historiography, has always tried to produce as many Christian myths as possible, in order of appeasing the Islamophobic West with Albania's glorious anti-Islamic past (!) One of the best ways of doing this has been to project Scanderbeg as Albania's most important national hero. {{citation}}: More than one of |author= and |last= specified (help)
  11. ^ Islamic Research Institute (Pakistan) (1997), Islamic studies, vol. 36, Islamic Research Institute, p. 202, retrieved October 14, 2011, Both modern Marxist and Christian nationalist Albanian myth-makers elevated this feudal insurgent to the position of their greatest idol. Karl Marx considered Georgius Castriotus Epirotarum de Turcis Skanderbeg dictus as the defender of Europe against the most powerful Asiatic state "which opposed historical development and progress. {{citation}}: Unknown parameter |coauthors= ignored (|author= suggested) (help)
  12. ^ Bratulić, Josip (20), Izvješće (in Croatian), Zagreb: SVEUČILIŠTE U ZAGREBU, FILOZOFSKI FAKULTET, p. 296, retrieved October 15, 2011, «Mitologija i Skenderbegov kult u albanskom epu i Kačićev Skenderbeg». ... Mitsko o Skenderbeg sačuvalo se u albanskoj književnosti i kulturi do danas {{citation}}: |first2= missing |last2= (help); |first3= missing |last3= (help); Check date values in: |date= and |year= / |date= mismatch (help); Cite has empty unknown parameter: |lay-date= (help); Text "authorlink" ignored (help)CS1 maint: multiple names: authors list (link) CS1 maint: numeric names: authors list (link)

Raising the flag[edit]

There are several articles with claims about "raising the flag of Albania/Skanderbeg for the first time after almost five centuries":


Myth of Albanian Indifference to Religion[edit]

The Myth of Albanian Indifference to Religion together with Myth of Skanderbeg, and Myth of Albanian Origins and Priority are incorporated by Albanian nationalists into the territorial claims of Albanian nation state. Albanian nationalists glorified " the ancestors' cult" and connected it with Skanderbeg as one of ancestors whose territory Albanians inherited. Skanderbeg is therefore utilized as symbol of the meaning of the Albanian nation: nation who inherited the right to live on land inherited from Illyrians via Skanderbeg. That meaning was proclaimed to legitimize claims that Albanian nation state should include all areas which was populated by Albanian speaking people for centuries because Albanians inherited those territories from their Illyrian ancestors via Skanderbeg. The fact that those ancestors had different religion is ignored in such claims because the sanctity of Albanian language underlined the Albanian indifference toward religion.(Vassilis, Nitsiakos (2008), Balkan border crossings: first annual of the Konitsa Summer School, Berlin: Lit Verlag, p. 299, 300, ISBN 9783825809188, OCLC 441722373, an important element in the nationalist movements was the "ancestors' cult", i.e. George Castriot, Skanderbeg, and the glorification of the "territory" as territory which was inherited by them. Both of them are utilized as symbols of who is Albanian and what the Albanian nation means. ...the Albanian elite utilized those symbols, with the emphasis on the language and "ancestors' cult", to create the national identity ... a cultural definition of Albanian would be: An individual/person who originates from father and mother that inherited the right to live on that land from the Illyrians, via Skanderbeg...the political area where the Albanian state was supposed to be built should have incorporated all areas populated by the majority of the people who spoke Albanian and lived there for a long time...on the land of their ancestors, regardless of their religious background because "The religion of Albanian is Albanianism" underlined by the sanctity of the language. {{citation}}: |first2= missing |last2= (help); Cite has empty unknown parameter: |lay-date= (help); More than one of |author= and |last1= specified (help)CS1 maint: multiple names: authors list (link))

Period Controlled by quote of text from different articles about Albania
1346 — 1355 Stephen Uroš IV Dušan of Serbia "by 1346 all Albania is reported to be under the rule of Dushan." "after the death of Dushan, his empire began to disintegrate and, in central Albania, the Thopia family under Karl Topia, claimed rights to the Kingdom of Albania."
1355— 1388 Karl Topia "After the death of her father, Karl Topia, in 1388, she inherited the castle of Krujë and the surrounding region."
1388 — 1394 Helena Thopia "After the death of her father, Karl Topia, in 1388, she inherited the castle of Krujë and the surrounding region."
1394—1403 Konstantin Balšić in 1394 "Konstantin Balšić, an Ottoman vassal, married her and inherited the rights on hte Krujë castle. He acted there as an Ottoman vassal.
1395 Ottoman Empire In 1395 the town was briefly captured by the Ottoman Empire.
1403 - 1415 Niketa Thopia In 1403 Niketa Thopia captured the castle from him....while from 1410 to 1415 it was ruled by Niketa Thopia.
1415 — 1443 Ottoman Empire Upon his death in 1415, the castle of Krujë felt in Ottomans' hands
1443 — 1478 Skanderbeg recaptured in 1443 by Skanderbeg...The Ottomans took control of the town after the fourth siege in 1478, and incorporated it in their territories.
1478 — 1912 Ottoman Empire
1912 — 1913 Kingdom of Serbia


The text in below described source says: Some historians have claimed that Scanderbeg formed an alliance with Vladislav but this have been proved false, ...
  • Setton, Kenneth (1955–1990), History of the Crusades, vol. five volumes, University of Wisconsin Press, ISBN 978-0-299-04834-1, ... describing the events of Kosovo in 1448...Scanderbeg was in no position at the time of second campaign to create any sort of diversion in support of the crusade. {{citation}}: More than one of |author= and |last= specified (help); Unknown parameter |coauthors= ignored (|author= suggested) (help)
It looks like Kenneth Setton changed his opinion after he published History of the Crusades? Or maybe he wrote and published some volumes of Crusades after he wrote some volumes of Papacy which contain information about his intention to participate in Second Battle of Kosovo? Maybe it was only intention, but not serious attempt?
But no he explained everything on the page 73 ("Francisc Pall has shown that most accounts of Scanderbeg's career during the years of 1443—1444 owe far more to fancy than to fact") and in the note number 122 on page 73 of his work[2]. "...Pal's articles should be read before Barletius... The spurious correspondence of July and August 1443, between Ladislas and Scanderbeg (made up by Barletius, who should assigned it to the year 1444) is reprinted in Radonić Đurađ Kastriot Skenderbeg pp. 5-7"

Interesting text about communism in Yu[edit]

Pišeš samo šta tebi odgovara,evo kratko pojašnjenje "pesnice" i tko ju je sačinjavao. Komunisti se udružuju 1920,u Vukovaru.Nakon što su se pojavili Slovenci koji su odbijali doči u Beograd. Nisu htjeli doči,jer se za Srbe pričalo da su kraljevi ljudi. 1920 su i izbori u srboslaviji,komunisti pobjeđuju u Zagrebu,Slavonskom Brodu,Križevcima,Osijeku i Podgorici. Na drugom partijskom kongresu opet u Vukovaru,Srbski predstavnici se protive uvođenju građanskih prava i ravnopravnosti,te podržavaju kralja a Rusku revoluciju nazivaju ludošču.Pojavljuju se dokazi da su na kraljevom platnom spisku(provokatori). Iste godine vlada zabranjuje rad Komunističkoj Partiji,i hapsi parlamentarce na temelju akta koji se zvao Obznana.

1921 g. Komunisti ustrojavaju Crvenu Pravdu,koja organizira neuspjeli atentat na kralja,ali u drugom atentatu ubija ministra unutarnjih poslova koji je bio autor Obznane.(početak "pesnice") 1924 g. komunisti odlučuju da se Versajska Jugoslavija treba ukinuti a Slovenija,Hrvatska i Makedonija postati nezavisne države.Na istom sastanku 2,500 industrijskih radnika je organizirano u borbene čelije.("pesnica"organizirana) 1926 g. Na trečem partijskom kongresu Hrvatska,Slovenija,Makedonija,Crna Gora i Vojvodina su definirane kao zasebne države koje se žele odvojiti od Srbije. 1929 g. Usljed velikog progona komunisti počinju svoju prvu radničko-seljačku oružanu pobunu protiv srboslavije. Pobuna je završila sa velikim komunističkim žrtvama.Đuro Đaković jedan od poznatijih.

1934 g. Na sastanku u LJubljani komunisti pozivaju na raspad srboslavije i zahtjevaju oslobođenje Crne Gore od Srbske okupacije.U kolovozu iste godine komunisti predstavljaju svoj prvi slogan Slaba Srbija-Jaka Jugoslavija. 1937 g. Staljin zove vodeče Srbske komuniste u Moskvu,i daje ih pogubiti iste godine.

1940 g. Na sastanku u Zagrebu komunisti izdaju proglas,u kojem obečavaju obranu nezavisnosti Jugoslavije svim sredstvima,u nadolazečem ratu.("pesnica") 1941 g. Srboslavija pristupa hitleru. 1941 g. Komunisti organiziraju uspješan puč,po novoj povijesti uz Englesku i Rusku pomoč,iako ja mislim da su to napravili sami. 10.04.1941 g. Tito organizira ratnu vladu u Zagrebu koja če se boriti za nacionalnu i socijalnu slobodu. 1945 g. Tito pobjeđuje i proglašava Bratstvo i Jedinstvo SVIH naroda

Gdje ti tu vidiš Kozarsku seljačku "pesnicu",ili da su Srbi bili ta "pesnica" je meni totalna misterija,ali šta ja znam kad smo mi svi kuhari,a Srbi junaci. :mrgreen:

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