User:K1Bond007/Archive5

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James Bond[edit]

Spy Who Loved Me[edit]

I take it from your revisions to the SWLM article that you must have finished the Wood novel. Thoughts? I thought it was an OK pastiche and Wood took a reasonable stab at Fleming's style, though it's interesting to see the differences between this book and the film. Since Wood wrote the screenplay, too, I must assume the book was either based on an earlier draft OR the book was altered so that Wood ended up with full credit instead of sharing it with his co-scriptwriter(s) on the film. Did you catch Jaws' real name? Also, I can't remember if Jaws actually survives the book, which would place it in conflict with Wood's Moonraker. 23skidoo 23:55, 20 Jun 2005 (UTC)

I doubt you'll have to change too much as you have the points down. I see that fellow won't let the matter drop. I put another response in there, defending your honor as it were, though I probably spoke out of turn. 23skidoo 02:27, 21 Jun 2005 (UTC)

Book infoboxes[edit]

I think an infobox is a good idea, though wouldn't it be a little confusing having two on one page for the Flemings? When you get around to it, why not make up a "trial run" box and drop it onto one of the Gardner and Benson book pages and we can tweak it from there? 23skidoo 13:40, 23 Jun 2005 (UTC)

MI6 references[edit]

You're closer to reading the Fleming books than I am. Isn't it correct that Fleming has Bond working for MI6 in his books? If not I know Gardner does. And Jamesgibbons statement regarding MI6 only being established in Brosnan's era contradicts Dr. No. If you can recall a Fleming novel in which MI6 is mentioned, it'll make the case a bit stronger. 23skidoo 00:39, 24 Jun 2005 (UTC)

And as I expected, he has asked for such a reference. I don't have time to skim through my books though as you state SIS = MI6. 23skidoo 19:45, 24 Jun 2005 (UTC)

Bullets[edit]

I think it looks OK. It sort of draws the names out and makes them more prominent. Yet the chart and photos farther down does this too. I have no objection either way. (BTW I'm going to be away between July 3 and 9 so will be "de-wikifying" myself for a bit. ;-) 23skidoo 30 June 2005 21:34 (UTC)

Moneypenny Diaries[edit]

Have you heard anything else about this new book series? I just stumbled upon an article at commanderbond.net from a few days ago (see [1]). 23skidoo 19:16, 12 July 2005 (UTC)

Bond contenders[edit]

Well that was certainly an interesting exchange. It really highlights one of Wikipedia's biggest problems in that people can't make up their minds what it is supposed to be. I've seen people outright state that it shouldn't contain anything that Brittanica wouldn't cover and I've seen others try and have any pop culture related articles banished outright. Remember the fellow who tried to delete all the Star Trek episode pages? Oh well... 23skidoo 20:42, 22 July 2005 (UTC)

I'm on the same page as you. Once someone is chosen and in fact as many pieces of information are confirmed, the article will be adjusted accordingly. I got the feeling the guy thought the information would be preserved forever in its current format. Once Bond is chosen, most of the names can be dropped such as Alex O'Lachlan and the like and only the most notable candidates need be listed. This type of information is historically interesting, since people who made similar lists decades ago recorded the fact that Burt Reynolds nearly became Bond, for example. Oh well ... as long as someone doesn't go on a deleting spree with the article it's no skin off my nose. 23skidoo 20:56, 22 July 2005 (UTC)
Someone just tried to add Sarah Michelle Gellar to the list, based on an off-the-cuff remark she made during an interview. I'm starting to develop a nervous twitch ... 23skidoo 12:57, 24 July 2005 (UTC)
Mind you, I just saw that Daily Mirror note that Henry Cavill, a whelp of only 22 years of age, is a finalist for the part. I personally hear the sound of an approaching train wreck. Did these guys not see Sum of All Fears? 23skidoo 21:21, 24 July 2005 (UTC)

Template[edit]

The new template looks good to me! Not much more I can see to add, really. 23skidoo 04:24, 28 July 2005 (UTC)

I think the biography and novelizations should stay in the preceeding/following fields as there are enough sources that treat them as "regular" Bond novels, especially the Biography, which quite clearly takes place after Colonel Sun but before any further books. Benson seems to have tried to work his novels around the movies, too. The trick is how we should handle Moneypenny Diaries. If they are indeed sanctioned Bond Universe books, then by rights the first volume should listed as following SilveFin since it'll be out before the next YJB book... (since we're listing them in publishing rather than chronological order). thoughts? 23skidoo 00:54, 29 July 2005 (UTC)

Lazenby trivia[edit]

Have you any idea what that anon user is going on about regarding Lazenby trivia in the main article? Except for you correcting a name a few days ago I don't recall seeing any Lazenby trivia reverted recently. 23skidoo 03:23, 29 July 2005 (UTC)

That sound you hear ...[edit]

... is me thumping my head on my desk after fixing an anon's edit to List of James Bond allies. Do people even read the articles before editing? (To the anon's credit, though, he/she did catch a couple of names that were missed such as Strutter from LALD, but why delete characters like Hilary Bray and Molly Warmflash?) 23skidoo 22:08, 2 August 2005 (UTC)

I agree Bond's romantic conquests have already been listed and can be removed, I think. That still doesn't explain what the anon has against Hilary Bray! I didn't reinstate Dolly from Moonraker, however, since strictly speaking she wasn't Bond's ally, but Jaws'. (Similarly, although I have seen her referred to as a "Bond girl" I don't think she qualifies for the list.) 23skidoo 22:25, 2 August 2005 (UTC)

Finland/Scandinavia in Max Payne[edit]

Just a thought -- I noticed that you reverted the Max Payne bit that talked about Finland not being counted as a part of Scandinavia, and commented that sometimes it is. You're of course correct, but I believe that the point the author was trying to make is... well, I made it in more detail. Does that make sense to you? Please let me know if it reads like crap -- I'd rather not go into an in-depth explanation on this article, but I do think that it's a point worth clearing up. -- Captain Disdain 02:04, 17 Jun 2005 (UTC)

Oh, Sam Lake's Finnish, all right. His real name is Sami Järvi; "Sam Lake" is just his a pen name. (It's a direct translation; "Järvi" is "Lake" in English.) And no, I don't think it was a nod to the Scandinavian heritage of Remedy, either -- well, I pretty much know that it wasn't one -- but the misconception that it is one exists; I've seen people come up with that before, because they don't realize that the Norse myths don't really have anything to do with Finland. That's why I put it in the "this is often seen as a nod..." form.
Anyway, I'm glad it makes sense to you; it's way too late over here, and I really shouldn't be messing about with articles at this hour. Thanks for the feedback. -- Captain Disdain 02:31, 17 Jun 2005 (UTC)

lots of edits, not an admin[edit]

Hi - I made a list of users who've been around long enough to have made lots of edits but aren't admins. If you're at all interested in becoming an admin, can you please add an '*' immediately before your name in this list? I've suggested folks nominating someone might want to puruse this list, although there is certainly no guarantee anyone will ever look at it. Thanks. -- Rick Block (talk) 16:58, Jun 18, 2005 (UTC)

current GCOTW color?[edit]

Hey, I was thinking of making the Template:Current-GCOTW tag the same color as the Wikipedia:Australian Collaboration of the Fortnight. While the changes you made a little bit ago are good, I thought changing the color will really make it stand out. The current color almost blends into the background. Comments? Thunderbrand 02:44, Jun 20, 2005 (UTC)

Yeah, I think blue would work good. I guess the other template should be changed if you decide to. Thunderbrand 03:05, Jun 20, 2005 (UTC)
To tell you the truth, I like the "Sky blue" one the best. Maybe we should ask other people at the project talk page? Thunderbrand 04:58, Jun 20, 2005 (UTC)
Now that I've seen the other template with Sky blue, it does look a tad dark. The "some sort of blue" should do fine. Thunderbrand 01:03, Jun 21, 2005 (UTC)

ISU images[edit]

thanks for the note. i did take all the isu pics aside from fells. how should i secure permission to use it. Grahamalonian

this is the site with the Fell image i used [2] Grahamalonian

thanks a ton. been using wikipedia for ages now, finally worked up the nerve to alter things when i was frustrated with some lack of images and basic info. Grahamalonian 04:15, 21 Jun 2005 (UTC)

Sega Dreamcast discussion, image edit war[edit]

Curiously, you didn't report my supposed accusations of personal attacks in Talk:Sega Dreamcast. You only denounced me in the 3RR because you was feel provoked with the quarrel.

Sincerely, I'm disappointed for suffering attacks for pure vanity and the lack of argument. You not justified all your attacks and your offense irony, just when a Moderator arrives you simply take off your body with the phrase "these image guys".

I learned a thing with you: vanity ruins any argument and corrupts the common-sense, stimulating the coward behavior.

I ask to you definitely stop this autoritarian acts with my participations in Wikipedia, because I'm tired of you erase my contributions, clean my tags and say what I'm do or when I'm wrong since I started the participation in Computer and video games project.

Sincerely, --Mateusc 19:48, 21 Jun 2005 (UTC)

You continue made me personal attacks and now talk about "no patience with you". This is curious, because you engaged against me and now lost your reasons. I'm not making any type of attack, I was only antagonized in all the case by you, ironized, offended, since you ranaway from the quarrel after successive attacks. Please, I ask for you that ceases the attacks and the offensive ironies because you commit to each cited phrase me. --Mateusc 22:12, 21 Jun 2005 (UTC)

I don't understand![edit]

What's going on with that Slike2 guy on the talk page of the Wikipedia talk:WikiProject Computer and video games? It's like he won't take no for an answer or something. I was gonna reply, but you and some other people have said what I would have said and it would sound awfully repetitive. I think i'll stay out of it, becuase what he says doesn't make any sense to me anymore. Thunderbrand 14:53, Jun 23, 2005 (UTC)

Looks like I have a live one[edit]

I reverted a guy who kept posting a porn link to Angelina Jolie. Now the guy is leaving me gibberish on my talk page. Check it out (it's at the top of the page). I don't know if this qualifies as vandalism or not. Do you know where I can report this user? (Fortunately it's actually not an anonymous IP this time but an actual account). 23skidoo 23:04, 25 Jun 2005 (UTC)

Tomorrow Never Dies[edit]

It's nothing major, everything still works and all but my question is why would you change the link I put up to the USS Sea Shadow from USS_Sea_Shadow to USS Sea Shadow. The point of putting in the underscores is so there is no need for the redirect. In addition, it's just sloppy. If you were to just change it to USS Sea Shadow, you shouldn't leave it as [ [USS Sea Shadow|USS Sea Shadow] ]

you shoudl have shortened it to [ [USS Sea Shadow] ]

Ignore the spaces between the "[" and "]", it's just so you can see what the formatting. I'm going to change that link back the original way. If you have a problem please feel free to leave a comment on my discussion page.Bubbleboys 00:52, 26 Jun 2005 (UTC)

cvg-stub[edit]

Is it just me or is the Template:cvg-stub really smushed together? I think after the software upgrade thingy it might have changed it. Do you see any difference? Thunderbrand June 28, 2005 05:30 (UTC)

Revolution[edit]

"As a result of this revision, I had an edit conflict with you, hence my last edit essentially redoing your last edit. I had moved so much stuff around that instead of incorporating your edit, I decided it would much better to just save and then redo yours. Just letting you know so you understand why. K1Bond007 June 29, 2005 06:49 (UTC)"

Yup, no problem, I had assumed that. I think the revisions where badly needed, especialy now that the article has grown over 20kb in size. Good job. Hopefully we can continue to work together along with the rest of the community to improve and update the article to even greater extents. Take care. --Ritz 29 June 2005 06:55 (UTC)

Soul Calibur[edit]

Yeah, the page is kinda messed up, and having Soul Edge there and then its own article is kinda weird. I was thinking of putting them in their own articles like you said earlier. I guess I would have to change my nomination to something else then, like SCII maybe. Comments? Thunderbrand July 2, 2005 04:36 (UTC)

Thanks. I'll get on it right away. I'll just leave the nom. for the first SC game. Thunderbrand July 2, 2005 04:53 (UTC)

A fellow Bond fan...[edit]

Thank you for adding the
after Johanna Harwood.Copperchair 7 July 2005 06:25 (UTC)

How's this for teamwork, huh? Copperchair 7 July 2005 06:25 (UTC)

Ivers2[edit]

Looks like we got a weirdo on our hands.... Thunderbrand July 6, 2005 05:01 (UTC)

I guess it stopped for now. Do you think that it was a sockpuppet user? I find it kind of odd. Probably just one person talking to themselves back and forth. Thunderbrand July 6, 2005 15:48 (UTC)

Fixed[edit]

Someone had uploaded a new one with the same name. I deleted it and informed the user. Andre (talk) July 6, 2005 23:10 (UTC)

Arcade Infobox Notes/Ports[edit]

I've started a poll regarding the final decision (hopefully) of the Notes and Ports fields of Template:Infobox Arcade Game. Since you've been involved prior discussion on the WikiProject, your vote would be helpful. Poiuyt Man talk 7 July 2005 17:14 (UTC)

Template:Steven Spielberg's films[edit]

As the result of a dispute over its previous TFD, the template showing Spielberg's films has been folded into a discussion of similar templates and renominated for deletion. I am contacting everyone who voted on the original TFD so that they will have another chance to make sure their opinion is heard.

The new vote is here.

Dragons flight 01:30, July 11, 2005 (UTC)

From Russia with Love[edit]

Thanks for correcting my mis-spelling. Wyss 18:10, 12 July 2005 (UTC)

Nintendo Revolution[edit]

Thank you for moving "Confirmed titles". Havok 01:45, 15 July 2005 (UTC)

A View to a Kill[edit]

Before I say anything, rest assured I'm not about to start an edit war! I just think that such an absolute statement (as obvious as you may believe it to be) should have some references/supporting facts. e.g. voted x/20 in a magazine, box office gross poor by any standard etc. On a personal note; the Bond DVDs I don't own are ones I choose not to own, and of the ones I do A View to a Kill is there, personal taste I suppose. Thanks for your time, Mark 22:02, 21 July 2005 (UTC)

I'm happy with that. I hope you see where I'm coming from, it is a very strong assertion to make with no evidence to support it. I think the examples you supplied more than do that. Thanks again for taking the time, Mark 15:47, 22 July 2005 (UTC)

GCOTW Voting/Contributing[edit]

I think the edits you made make things very clear. I'll still try to add the Template:GCOTWvoter to talk pages every week. Hopefully we'll see better response. Jacoplane 21:58, 25 July 2005 (UTC)

Possible copyright violation in Hiroshi Yamauchi article[edit]

Sir,

In reference to possible copyright violation of my own fault in the Hiroshi Yamauchi article, please understand I read the aforementioned text and reworded it as to avoid any copyright violation. The reference article seems to be the only detailed profile of Yamauchi, so please may you review my submission and emphasize or remove any phrases which you consider to be violating the copyright of N-Sider [3]? Do you believe the section would require a complete rewrite?

Thank you for your assistance,

Grumpy Troll 13:38, 26 July 2005 (UTC).

When you find a copyright violation you should put Template:copyvio, as explained in Wikipedia:Possible copyright infringements#Copyright infringement notice. In this case. It seems to me that Grumpy Troll has basically taken every paragraph and changed the grammar and words around, but the premise of every paragraph seems to be the same. While this is certainly Plagiarism, I am not entirely sure that is is also a copyright violation. There has to be a way to use such information by changing it sufficiently. Is there a guideline on wikipedia for this? Jacoplane 14:34, 26 July 2005 (UTC)
I was modifying my text to include the information source when I was met with an edit conflict, that of the removal of the previous paragraphs due to possible copyright variation. Is citation of the source enough, or was my reworded version too similar to the original? Additionally, do you know of any other sources for information on Yamauchi?
Yours sincerely,
Grumpy Troll 14:47, 26 July 2005 (UTC).
Well citation of the source would be necessary in any case to avoid plagiarism. As I said, I am not exactly sure if it is a copyright infringement. What I would do is not add your text now, because then the copyright violation template would need to be added, which kind of sucks for the GCOTW. When the GCOTW is finished, you could add it and this debate could be had on Wikipedia:Copyright problems, where it could be resolved properly. I'd actually like you to do this, because it's not clear to me when something is considered a violation or not, and this would make clear what wikipedia's policy on this is. Jacoplane 14:58, 26 July 2005 (UTC)

Alias episodes table[edit]

Yeah, I think that looks good, but it seems like a lot of whitespace is there. I guess it's inevitable, though, cause of the length of the table. Adding it to the other seasons would make it easier for people. Thunderbrand 20:54, July 29, 2005 (UTC)

Splinter cell[edit]

Sorry about that. I think I clicked on the rollback button by accident. It doesnt give you a preview when you do it, so I guess I wasn't paying attention. Sorry again. Thunderbrand 02:07, August 2, 2005 (UTC)

Spaces in page headers[edit]

Hiya, I noticed you removed spaces in wiki page headers. For example, you changed "== Title ==" to "==Title==". Why is this? Is this considered best practice? Do you have a reference for this? Because when editing a page and clicking the "header" button, the spaces are put there automatically. It is a pain to then have to remove them again manually. --SpaceLust 09:11, 3 August 2005 (UTC)

Fellow Bond and game freak[edit]

Hey Kevin my name is Paul and i just happened to stumble on your page and i noticed that you seem to be a Bond connusieur. Just thought i'd say what's up to another James Bond fan. I own all the movies and many novels. Play all the games and know a whole lot of Bond trivia. Betcha can't stump me!

Neat K1Bond007 21:09, August 3, 2005 (UTC)

Awesomeness Deletion[edit]

I didn't mean to make anyone mad with this article. Please reconsider your vote for deletion. I think it is a nice addition to Wikipedia.

Thank You Brian Uphoff University of Illinois

P.S. I think I might go to the Air Show in Peoria on Saturday

67.167.52.48 07:14, 5 August 2005 (UTC)
Articles on Wikipedia have to show some sort of notability. This article does not. It isn't encyclopedic. It was created by you and your buddies - we call that "vanity". I stand by vote. Sorry. K1Bond007 07:23, August 5, 2005 (UTC)

GCOTW voter[edit]

no that's cool, this seems more consistent with the other templates. Jacoplane 09:18, 5 August 2005 (UTC)

CCOTW[edit]

You did a good job fixing up the page. --ZeWrestler Talk 11:45, 5 August 2005 (UTC)

Image copyright issue[edit]

I created and uploaded to Wikipedia an image representing a timeline of platform games, and in adherence to the Wikipedia guidelines, licensed it under the GFDL, but since it contains copyrighted images (i.e. screenshots of video games), I am unsure as to whether or not another licence should be appropriately applied. As the co-creator and supervisor of Wikiproject computer and video games, I hoped you would be able to assist me in the issue.

Thank you,

Grumpy Troll (talk) 20:16, 6 August 2005 (UTC).

I thought you were the co-creator of the project when in fact you are the co-creator of the infobox — sorry for the confusion. I agree that my image is too large and will try and implement the idea in a more practical fashion. Thank you for your time, Grumpy Troll (talk) 20:42, 6 August 2005 (UTC).

Game genre article category fix[edit]

Thanks for reverting category to "genre". When I first browsed the "genre" category showed as a new link. -- Sitearm | Talk 17:22, 2005 August 8 (UTC)

Pearle and future games[edit]

There was a small bug in her code, which I've just fixed. CyberSkull cleaned up most of the mess, and I just finished the rest. Thanks for the heads up. -- Beland 01:47, 11 August 2005 (UTC)

All that really needed to be done was to save a page after making no changes. It will not show up in the history, but it will refresh all categories and links associated with that page.~ Dread Lord CyberSkull ✎☠ 03:51, 2005 August 11 (UTC)

Infobox VG[edit]

A quick question, where do I go to discuss changes to {{Infobox VG}} (I noticed your name on the talk page)? It's talk page looks to be for usage only. I wanted to discuss making the image parameter optional. I wanted to do {{if defined call1 | {{{image}}} | Infobox CVG/image | {{{image}}}}} Thanks.~ Dread Lord CyberSkull ✎☠ 03:56, 2005 August 11 (UTC)

Thanks Dread Lord CyberSkull ✎☠ 04:05, 2005 August 11 (UTC)

Thank you for GCIDOTW template update[edit]

Thank you for updating the GCIDOTW template used on Wikiportal computer and video games. (At the time of the template's creation, the superfluous code you removed was actually necessary.) Grumpy Troll (talk) 18:07, 11 August 2005 (UTC).

Question[edit]

I asked you about 9 months ago if you were interested in adminship. You now have 11959 edits - significantly more than me, and a sizable amount in the Wikipedia: and Talk: namespaces. Are you interested in adminship? You won't have to ask me to move and merge pages anymore... :P Andre (talk) 05:12, August 12, 2005 (UTC)

I'll put a nomination for you on WP:RFA and you just have to answer the questions and write that you accept. Andre (talk) 19:16, August 12, 2005 (UTC)
Wikipedia:Requests for adminship/K1Bond007. Good luck! Andre (talk) 19:54, August 12, 2005 (UTC)

Category:Literary characters[edit]

We are nearing the end of the CfD discussion on Category:Literary characters. You origianlly voted to Keep, but you later discussed the possibilities of a rename. However you never formally changed your vote to Keep or Rename or even to just Rename. Given that Category:Literary science fiction characters) was just clsoed as "no consensus" I would hope for a clearer donsensus on this issue, whouch should IMO guide the action on the sub categories. Perhaps you could review the discussion at WP:CFD#Category:Literary characters and indicte if you support a rename or not? DES (talk) 17:19, 12 August 2005 (UTC)

Bond characters[edit]

It is a matter of official vs. more specific, then. Copperchair 05:14, 14 August 2005 (UTC)

Actually I'm more inclined to having the official cast list, for the same reason you prefer to specify the names (this being an encyclopedia). Copperchair 05:23, 14 August 2005 (UTC)

IMDb prefers the official cast list, only people change the credits all the time. That is why some credits get "locked", so people don't change them. And JamesBond.com doesn't have a "Cast list", it only lists the characters. Copperchair 05:36, 14 August 2005 (UTC)

The complete names are in other parts of the article, anyway. Copperchair 05:55, 14 August 2005 (UTC)

Well, you know what I think. Do what you think is right... Copperchair 05:59, 14 August 2005 (UTC)

Re:March of the Penguins[edit]

Thanks for the heads up--ZeWrestler Talk 20:50, 15 August 2005 (UTC)

Question re: Casino Royale edits.[edit]

Hey K1Bond007 -

Based on your background and name it looks like you're pretty seasoned on wiki, and on matters relating to bond. May I ask why you reverted my edit to break out the Casino Royale page? I had called it out as the novel page - consistent with other disambiguation pages, IE Heavy Metal, Yellow Submarine, etc. You reverted it back - but I saw you also did some additional cleaning which makes the page much easier to navigate - good work as there will be more attention to this page, with the new film coming out. -- Barrettmagic 08:40 16 August 2005

follow up, Casino Royale[edit]

Thanks for the feedback K1. I saw the space that master Casino Royale page was taking up, realized it needed to be broken up soon for space/layout/logic considerations, while I was doing some additions to related page. Thanks again - Barrettmagic 10:30 16 August 2005 (UTC)

Fictional characters[edit]

you wrote: I just want to get this straightened out before the categories get moved. I'm good with moving Category:Literary characters to Category:Characters in written fiction, and I thought this was going to be the way we were going to go for its subcats. For instance you nominted Category:Literary science fiction characters and suggested moving it to Category:Characters in written science fiction. I'm good with this too because it follows the same format; however, I'm not sure about Category:Literary fantasy characters being moved to Category:Fantasy characters (written). I guess I'm ok with it, but I thought something more like Category:Characters in written fantasy fiction is more along the lines of what we were going for? Tell me which you want. At this point, I don't really care, I'm just making sure I don't have to do this twice :) K1Bond007 20:05, August 16, 2005 (UTC)

Category:Fantasy characters (written) was my inital suggestion, made before Category:Characters in written fiction had been suggested in the discussion over the parent category. I belive I endorsed Category:Characters in written fantasy (to me "fantasy" implies fiction in this usage) later in the discussion of this category. I think that is an acceptable name, and probably the most consistant. I am ok with any name that includes "written" and does not include "literary" or "literature". DES (talk) 20:15, 16 August 2005 (UTC)

Reply about category[edit]

Actually, I created a category without knowing its redundancy. It is inevitable that redundant articles can occur on Wikipedia. --SuperDude 22:54, 16 August 2005 (UTC)

Havok page move[edit]

Just letting you know that if you disagree with the page move, the proper place to indicate your disagreement is on Talk:Havok (software), not Wikipedia:Requested moves. You should move your disagreement message there, so that it will be counted in the final tally of votes. —Lowellian (reply) 18:48, August 18, 2005 (UTC)

Happens to us all. Happy editing! —Lowellian (reply) 20:10, August 18, 2005 (UTC)

The next james bond[edit]

I'm curious. Who do you think the next James Bond is going to be? Jacoplane 21:58, 18 August 2005 (UTC)