User:Scartol/canvas

Just so no one's confused: It's canvas as in "a place to make art", not canvass as in "try to make a cabal".

Let's podcast again!

As we mentioned on the last podcast, we want to do one on controversial articles. Let's try that next. Awadewit (talk) 17:33, 10 November 2008 (UTC)

Possible times

Please sign up for the times you could attend the call:

• Sunday, 23 November 2008 - 23:00 UTC (6 pm EST) - Scartol, Raul654, Awadewit, TimVickers, NancyHeise, ImperfectlyInformed, Filll, Durova (possibly)

Technical details

We will be using Skype, which is available for Windows, Mac, and Linux. On Skype, Awadewit is "Awadewit" and Scartol is "scartol". You can find us by searching for these names. We will then add you into our chat and our voice channels.

Conversing about controversy

We all want this podcast to be productive, so I am proposing a few ways to make the conversation as fruitful as possible:

• Some of the people on the podcast have clashed in the past - it would be best if they avoided reenacting those clashes in real time - we don't need to see controversy in action!
• Most Wikipedia editors have never edited a controversial article - we are here to explain to them what that is like, not drag them into the minutiae of the problems we deal with on a daily basis
• Try to talk about the articles in general terms, and not refer to details that our listeners will not be familiar with.
• Calling out problematic editors by name will only antagonize those people, particularly if they are not on the podcast to respond: we should avoid "naming names" - we should discuss general kinds of behavior, anyway, as that will be clearer to an audience unfamiliar with the specific articles we are working on
• We should continually try to offer solutions to the problems we have faced - no one wants to hear us rant for an hour!

• Amen. I've always liked using "Mr. X" and "We'll call her (fake name)" instead of using real usernames. Scartol • Tok 05:54, 23 November 2008 (UTC)

Participants

• I've invited NancyHeise, who has worked on the Roman Catholic Church article. Other ideas: Jossi (cult articles), ScienceApologist (intelligent design), TimVickers (evolution), Filll (alternative medicine and more), Durova (Israeli-Palestinian). Awadewit (talk) 17:33, 10 November 2008 (UTC)

• Try Cirt, too. Cult articles. --Moni3 (talk) 17:38, 10 November 2008 (UTC)

• I will. Awadewit (talk) 17:49, 10 November 2008 (UTC)

• User:MastCell is very experienced in dealing with problems with our medicine articles, they're somebody I've got a lot of respect for. Tim Vickers (talk) 19:29, 10 November 2008 (UTC)

• MastCell declined, but he suggested some other editors, who I have now invited. Awadewit (talk) 22:03, 13 November 2008 (UTC)

• I've invited User:Vassyana - a member of the mediation committee. Awadewit (talk) 17:24, 11 November 2008 (UTC)

• I've invited User:Raul654 - a member of ArbCom. Awadewit (talk) 22:03, 13 November 2008 (UTC)
  • I'd be happy to, but I'm going to be in Austin from November 15-21 (inclusive), which eliminates 5 of the 6 above times. And I've got plans for Sunday (Nov 23) afternoon, which eliminates the 6th. I'd be happy to do it Sunday (Nov) evening EST or later in the week if that works for everyone else. Raul654 (talk) 16:44, 14 November 2008 (UTC)

Works for me. I've added a Sunday evening option. (Weekends are really the only times I can do it.) I think it would be really valuable to have Raul on the call (hey that rhymes), and I'de like some downtime after the last call before we chat again, so I'm pushing for that option. Scartol • Tok 17:05, 14 November 2008 (UTC)

It looks like that is going to be next Sunday. I hope we get a few more people, but it is harder to find people for this podcast than I thought! Awadewit (talk) 16:58, 15 November 2008 (UTC)

If anything, I'd like to listen, but I tend to stay away from hotly contested articles like so many plagues. Chicken. --Moni3 (talk) 22:47, 15 November 2008 (UTC)

• I'm interested, but the options are really not friendly towards people who live on the West Coast and work full-time. My options are to either get up at 8 AM on Sunday (unlikely) or join the already crowded party that evening. If someone wants to chat on Saturday, or push back one of the weekday discussions to 9 PM, then I'll join. Also, I guess I would need a computer microphone, eh? II | (t - c) 08:43, 17 November 2008 (UTC)

• Actually, the idea is to find a time when everyone can come, so if you can come on Sunday evening, that would be wonderful. We are going to be recording this, by the way, and posting it as part of WP:NTWW. (And, yes, you would need a mic.) Awadewit (talk) 17:15, 17 November 2008 (UTC)

• Will try to make it. Durova^Charge! 02:27, 23 November 2008 (UTC)

Topics

Please list topics for discussion during the podcast here:

• 1) Definition of controversy on Wikipedia: Edit-warring? Vandalism? Trolls? Topic is controversial in the real world (religion, nationalism)? Topic becomes controversial on Wikipedia due to our policies?

• 2) Where does the editing get bogged down? POV? Sources? Organization? Lead?

• 3) What are some effective solutions? Sandbox? Removing factions? Establishing editing principles? 1 or 0RR? Putting up for deletion? War of attrition? Mediation?

Discussion

The podcast should be about the process of editing controversial articles and ideally focus on solutions. It should not descend into a debate about particular points regarding particular articles. How do we strike a balance between using examples from particular examples without starting the whole long debate, particularly if we have people from "opposing" sides? Awadewit (talk) 17:53, 10 November 2008 (UTC)

Ideas: set the parameters very tightly, including an outline of what will be discussed, and a set of questions: "Why do you edit the articles you do?" "How do you handle Type X of tendentious editing?" "How would you change the way Wikipedia works to allow a more efficient encyclopedia that anyone can edit?" If conversation strays off into an area that you don't think will be covered, edit it out. --Moni3 (talk) 17:57, 10 November 2008 (UTC)

We'll need a rigorous moderator (or two)! :) I'm going to pull out my notes on controversial articles that I took for my Wikimania talk and start coming up with a list of questions and comments. Awadewit (talk) 18:04, 10 November 2008 (UTC)

If people are amenable, I'm willing to moderate rigorously.. I do it in my classroom all the time. =) Scartol • Tok 17:04, 11 November 2008 (UTC)

You should see me in my argumentative writing class! :) Awadewit (talk) 17:07, 11 November 2008 (UTC)

When a discussion becomes an argument it is time to find a new approach to the problem! Tim Vickers (talk) 17:35, 11 November 2008 (UTC)

I think it would first help to identify what problems exist for controversial articles and maybe discover if these articles face the same or different problems. If they are facing the same problems it would be interesting to see how these have been dealt with already and what has worked or not. NancyHeise ^talk 18:47, 11 November 2008 (UTC)

Since it says that this will be a podcast, I assume someone will be recording it and posting a copy somewhere. Where will that be? (Someone asked me where it could be downloaded). Raul654 (talk) 21:57, 23 November 2008 (UTC)

• Filll and Scartol will both be recording. It will be posted by the Not the Wikipedia Weekly (now Wikivoices) folks as one of their upcoming episodes. Awadewit (talk) 21:59, 23 November 2008 (UTC)

All right. FYI, I'll probably be about 10-15 minutes late into the podcast. Raul654 (talk) 22:53, 23 November 2008 (UTC)