Hello, A ntv! Welcome to Wikipedia! Thank you for your contributions. You may benefit from following some of the links below, which will help you get the most out of Wikipedia. If you have any questions you can ask me on my talk page, or place {{helpme}} on your talk page and ask your question there. Please remember to sign your name on talk pages by clicking or by typing four tildes "~~~~"; this will automatically produce your name and the date. If you are already loving Wikipedia you might want to consider being "adopted" by a more experienced editor or joining a WikiProject to collaborate with others in creating and improving articles of your interest. Click here for a directory of all the WikiProjects. Finally, please do your best to always fill in the edit summary field. Happy editing! Erik the Red 2 ~~~~ 00:04, 3 October 2008 (UTC)[reply]
Hi.I agree that there are numerous claimants for the five sees but only the Roman and eastern orthodox are concidered part of the pentarchy since all the other claimants, all non chalcedonians, were excluded from the council in trullo deemed to be heretical by both the Pope, the Roman Emperor and the Ecumenical patriarch, for whatever reasons. So as a matter of accuracy we must maintain the reference. i will revert back your edit but please fill free to adress to me whatever reasons I might have underminded.
Regards. Melathron (talk) 14:59, 8 November 2008 (UTC)[reply]
You shall think mainly to the Melkite Greek Catholic Church that claims to be the successor of the Greek Patriarch of Antioch (and of Jerusalem and Alexandria). They have a continuous line of bishops form the ancient times Greek patriarch of Antioch, and are surely chalcedonians. There are also the Greek Old Calendarists. The claim of various present churches to be the successors of the five patriarchs should at limit be placed at the end of the Article, but to use contemporary denominations names in the historical part is an anachronism and a POV. I kindly ask you to revert your edit. A ntv (talk) 15:11, 8 November 2008 (UTC)[reply]
Terrò presente il consiglio. Grazie ancora. A ntv (talk) 12:59, 13 November 2008 (UTC)[reply]
You wrote that 1 Enoch is not a matter of faith for Ethiopians, but I just wanted to correct you that 1 Enoch is indeed held to be a canonical and important part of the Holy Bible for Ethiopian Orthodox Christians! BTW My compromise is only that we mention in the intro, that some groups consider the Ark mythology, while others (not just the EOTC, but also any Muslims who believe the Quran is historically valid, Jews who believe the Tanakh is historically valid, and even other Abrahamic sects) still continue to teach today that it is historical. This is easy to reference, needs to be pointed out, and should head off further prolonged debate if we can only get the 'mythology' camp to acknowledge that they don't have a monopoly on pov, which they don't seem interested in acknowledging at present. Til Eulenspiegel (talk) 12:30, 1 December 2008 (UTC)[reply]
I know well that 1Enoch is canonical for the Ethiopeans. What is not a matter a faith for them is if 1Enoch has a priority over Genesis or not. Writing that the Ark is firstly described in Genesis is not something against their creed. About your point, it is of course better than stating that the Ark is a myth (I would delete the word "still" that sounds as saying that some are more ahead than others). But I suggested nor to speak of myth, nor of history: leaving such positions to other articles. Stating simply that the Ark is present firstly in Genesis, and also in other texts, without any further statement. A ntv (talk) 12:47, 1 December 2008 (UTC)[reply]
Please be sure to leave a descriptive edit summary when tagging for any sort of deletion, be it CSD, PROD or AFD. It is important that you do this so those that have the article watchlisted will know that you have tagged it for deletion. Thanks. If you have any questions, please let me know. -Chunky Rice (talk) 01:14, 11 December 2008 (UTC)[reply]
I'm sorry that I have not been able to agree with your suggested alternative lead sentence formulation for the article. There is nothing personal in this. I appreciate your contributions. However for the reasons I have placed on the article talk page, I think your proposal does not do enough to specify the proper name of the Church, which it is IMO very important to do. Since the article is headed Roman Catholic Church, fudging the name issue will leave readers with the wrong impression that RCC is the proper name of the church. Xandar 23:39, 1 January 2009 (UTC)[reply]
(This one, as used here.) Let's have that debate, shall we? Yes, all Melkite Patriarchs have it, but the case seems strong for removing it from all their articles. First, it's rather large and cumbersome, part of a general trend toward insisting on purely decorative touches that add little to readers' understanding of a subject. And second, it doesn't - as a template ought to - feature the articles it's used in in this case (in other words, the Melkite Patriarchs are missing from the template). Sure, they're all Eastern Christians, but how much is a reader interested in the Patriarchs served by links to Divine Liturgy or Philokalia? Surely he can click through to Melkite Greek Catholic Church in the first sentence and find the template there, can he not? If the standard for using the template is that the subject be a practicing Eastern Christian, why not use it at Vladimir Putin or, for that matter, Tom Hanks? Thoughts? - BiruitorulTalk 04:59, 4 January 2009 (UTC)[reply]
I think it would be nice to debate about this issue with the editor that most worked on these articles User:Majoreditor. I kindly ask you to post your proposal in Talk:Gregory II Youssef. A ntv (talk) 10:19, 4 January 2009 (UTC)[reply]
Hello! Your article John II, Bishop of Jerusalem is very impressive -- I just wanted to stop by and commend you for that. Keep up the great work! Ecoleetage (talk) 21:53, 4 January 2009 (UTC)[reply]
Ecoleetage (talk) has smiled at you! Smiles promote WikiLove and hopefully this one has made your day better. Spread the WikiLove by smiling at someone else, whether it be someone you have had disagreements with in the past or a good friend, Go on smile! Cheers, and Happy editing!=) Smile at others by adding {{subst:Smile}} to their talk page with a friendly message.
Thanks! I'm not English mother-tongue, and I appreciate any copyedit and improvement in the Article. A ntv (talk) 21:55, 4 January 2009 (UTC)[reply]
Hey, I'm not English mother-tongue, too! But I try my best -- and you seem to be succeeding! Be well. Ecoleetage (talk) 00:29, 5 January 2009 (UTC)[reply]
Apologies for screwing up the meaning in one of my attempts at copyediting: hope that's the only place it happened. Mhardcastle (talk) 17:28, 6 January 2009 (UTC)[reply]
Thank you a lot for the edit!! It was very necessary. I'm not English mother tongue so I love when my edits are copyedited. About such sentence, do you think that the sentence "in the frame of the first Origenist polemic" is more clear? I don't know how "Origenist" sounds to not experts, so I preferred the first time to use a turn of phrase. A ntv (talk) 18:06, 6 January 2009 (UTC)[reply]
Hi, I moved it to the bottom of the page, it's still there! (See Template:Psalms). I know it may not be as visable, but it's tider and will allow for the eventual creation of an article on every psalm. Epson291 (talk) 04:18, 13 January 2009 (UTC)[reply]
Thank you for your additions and organization of the Enoch page. I saw it needed help and tried my best from the source I was looking at last night, and was delighted when I saw your additions this morning. Well done!Aramink (talk) 18:28, 14 February 2009 (UTC)
No problem, thank to you for your interesting edits. A ntv (talk) 18:39, 14 February 2009 (UTC)[reply]
I never said it was "under". It was evangelized by the Christian of saint Thomas (the Nestorians), not by the the See of Antioch (st Peter). It used the East Syrian rite (not the West syrian rite, up to the 17th century). It was anyway not "under" but was authonomous, up to the Purtogueses A ntv (talk) 10:10, 21 February 2009 (UTC)[reply]
the church in India never entered in the Christological issues (monophisite vs nestorian). It recognized as true all the bishops who arrived there, Nestorian, or Syrian or Latin. So you are right that the church in India was not Nestorian in docrine. But it has always been tied with Church of East, from which it took the ancien hierarchy. As well as the Church of East it claimed to derive from St Thomas, and used the East Syrian Rite (a developed form of the anaphora of Addai and Mari is still used by the Catholic Malabarenses). Only when in 1603 they decided to exit form the Portugese rule (under political pressure by Dutchs) thay remained without bishop. So they accepted the offer of jurisdiction from the Syrian Catholicos of the East, who anyway required they to change the liturgy. A ntv (talk) 10:26, 21 February 2009 (UTC)[reply]
1.Read "Paesi Nouamente Retrouati et Nouo Mondo da Alberico Vesputio Florentino intitulato" published in 1507 AD. Its availbale in Vatican Library and CHECK whether St.peter's Antioch had any role in the Indian Church!!!!. This book is also good to know the connection of Latin POPE an his church with Indian Church.
2.And on ur comment on Latin bishops, it only started with "John of Monte Corvino" who arrived in 1328 AD, so that's only from 14th century.
3.I didnt understand how u connected Saint Thomas with Nestorians. Nestorianism happened only in 5th century. Thomas is believed to have died in 72 AD.
4.And ur dating of 1603 is also wrong. That split happened in 1653 AD.
5.U seems to establish that Saint Thomas had no role in Syrian Church. Ur statments say that the Catholicate became Nestorian fully. But dont forget that its Syrian patriarchate which establied the Catholicate of East in 410 AD. U have to refer the canons of that council to see the presence of Syrian delegates in that synod. Further, its foolish to beleive that entire church of East converted to Nestorian with then Catholcos in 484 AD. There were bishops in the Church of the East who continued relation with Patrairchate of ANtioch denouncing Nestorian convertion of the majority in Persia with empire's support.
6.Further to say in the medival centuries, it was the Orthodox Church of the East more powerful than Netorian counterpart there.
7.Its true that in some parts of india (like Madras), there was full Nestorian presnece. But in Kerala, the church was undoubtly Oriental Orthodox. Ancient writings in the churches in kerala seems to accept Mary as "Mother of God", which is agaisnt the theology of Nestorians. But the Indian church used to allow Nestorain bishops, without knowing the differance. Even saying that i admit that no Orthodox bishops came to India in 14th and 15th century. But undoubtly, the above said book was written in the 16th century, which clearly states about Saint Peter, Catholicos and Antioch.
My friend, as catholic I have no preference iftthe Indian Christian before the 1500 had East Syrian (Babylonese) origin or West Syrian (Antiochian) origin: the historical truth is that they were more connected with the Assyrians. You can check it on whichever text, as here [2]. Before the 1400 the East Syrians (please don't label them with "Nestorians") were by far more powerful than the Antiochian Christians. The East Syrians arrived up to China and India, the Antiochians lost two times the apostolic succession and needed to go to the Copts in Egypt to have their patriarch consecrated. The texts of 1507 you quoted cannot be taken is serious consideration because in such a times it was not clear in Europe the difference between the Antiochians and the Assyrians. In 1603 was sent by Antioch a Catholicos in India who claimed to be anciant catholicos of the East and he was followed by many Christians. This was the start of the following events: the 1653 vow and the 1665 change of tradition: "In 1665 Mar Thoma 1 turned to the Patriarch of Antioch..he and his successors permanently turned away from from the patriarchs of Babylon and submitted to the Jacobit patriarch of Antioch "[3]. In that period the Malankareses changed also their liturgy. A ntv (talk) 23:40, 22 February 2009 (UTC)[reply]
Hello, did you understand why I removed the rest of the other edit to Transubstantiation? I wasn't sure if I should note it on the talk page. I think I should have said more in the edit summary. I left an explanation on the user's talk page. Thank you. LovesMacs (talk) 18:49, 9 March 2009 (UTC)[reply]
you acted correctly. I was going to do the same edit you did, but you was more fast. Thank for your edits A ntv (talk) 18:55, 9 March 2009 (UTC)[reply]
Hello, thank you for correcting my error in Transubstantiationhere. I was thinking only of words that meant "change" and I didn't even think of the forma/substantia contradiction. LovesMacs (talk) 12:47, 29 March 2009 (UTC)[reply]
No problem, Thanks for writing. A ntv (talk) 18:06, 29 March 2009 (UTC)[reply]
I award A ntv this barnstar in recognition of your excellent contribution to Christianity-related articles. Majoreditor (talk) 22:30, 12 April 2009 (UTC)[reply]
On May 6, 2009, Did you know? was updated with a fact from the article Demandatam, which you created or substantially expanded. If you know of another interesting fact from a recently created article, then please suggest it on the Did you know? talk page.
Hello again. Could I possibly trouble you to look at Prokon? I'd really like someone with an understanding of Eastern religion to check my suspicions. ϢereSpielChequers 15:59, 16 May 2009 (UTC)[reply]
I am a neutral outsider (Catholic!) attempting to merge the various and conflicting histories of the various churches in Karala, many of whom seem to have trouble naming themselves much less coming up with a common history (which they share until 1663 or so). I had succeeded merging five such churches but had, unfortunately picked as a name "History of the Saint Thomas Christians" which turned out to be too close to the article Saint Thomas Christian tradition which (of course!) contained its own history. There are three "owners" of that article which are trying to destroy my merged history (which is far from perfect BTW, but is neutral). My merged history includes theirs but apparently insufficiently.
They are trying replace all other articles by sheer weight of numbers, I guess. I had been merging one by one and had received no negative feedback thus far. I was wondering if I could call on you at some point in time to comment on the proposed deletion of the new history. Right now, I am the only advocate for the article. Their's isn't too bad but is missing some stuff and has some stylistic problems. But they do have three vocal defenders which I don't have. I am (no longer!) looking to replace theirs which, strictly speaking doesn't conflict with mine. I have offered to change the name to avoid the appearing to challenge them, but they most likely will reject that. So far, they have made no concessions whatever though I have tried to work with them.
I don't need your help this minute, but I may shortly. Can I call on you? Thanks. Student7 (talk) 14:51, 22 May 2009 (UTC)[reply]
Just wanted to inform that a new user has duplicated mulitple pages you have already created by accident. Here is the link showing the pages he has created. I have already left him a message regarding the duplicates, but they still remain there. Good Day Ninevite (talk) 18:22, 29 May 2009 (UTC)[reply]
Thank you. I also wrote him and I've added the merge template to the new pages. A ntv (talk) 18:48, 29 May 2009 (UTC)[reply]
The reason the duplicate pages look like mere translations of wiki: de is because they are. On wikiproject assyria-there was a list of articles needed to be translated and I took on the duty of doing some by hand. Does it mean that all my hard work on those is going for nothing. I worked hard and endlessly translating the articles from German to English. Please just merge it or try to make it useful--leave deletion out. Please. I dont want all that to go for nothing. By the way-its nice meeting another assyrian:)SchnitzelMannGreek. 19:30, 29 May 2009 (UTC)[reply]
I'll try to merge the pages as much as possible. I've start to work on some other new pages you created as Elias Mellus. Thank for your work. A ntv (talk) 20:04, 29 May 2009 (UTC)[reply]
Thanks..By the Way: the Elias Mellus article is looking great! Sorry that I didn't make it look as good..I was merely translating. Next time, I will:) And soory that some of the articles are so roughly translated because of the way the German language is. Yet a few including some of the duplicates...I managed to translate with correct grammer. I also wrote an article from scratch called Naheere. What do you think?SchnitzelMannGreek. 20:25, 29 May 2009 (UTC)[reply]
Naheere is a wonderful Article. I made minor changes. I suppose the virgins are ten not seven. But I fear that the text of the prayers is copyright (well the English translation of the prayers), so I suggest or to remove it leaving the link, or to ask some Wikipedian more expert. A ntv (talk) 21:06, 29 May 2009 (UTC)[reply]
{{You did an amazing job working and sorting the articles I created. Sorry some were roughly translated or just mere translated. I learned how to shape another article like what you did when I create another. Thanks for all your revision. By the way, I designed this barnstar for the WikiProject and you deserve it well indeed:) SchnitzelMannGreek. 15:09, 30 May 2009}
thank you indeed. A ntv (talk) 16:53, 30 May 2009 (UTC)[reply]
Can you please explain to me...what is the difference between the Assyrians and the Syriac-Aramaic? Why are there two flags.?Aren't we the same people?It's been bugging me lately. Thanks:)SchnitzelMannGreek. 16:45, 1 June 2009 (UTC)[reply]
I personally think that the "Assyrian nationality" is a 19th century idea that came from the Anglican missionaries (read this). Never before the Church of the East was limited to a single nationality. The 19th century has been the century of the nationalities: Assyrian nationality against Turkish nationality. You know the result. Syriac-Aramaic has not the value of a Nation but it is simply a grouping based on language and historical-cultural heritage. Saying that the Syriac-Aramaic are the true Assyrians is as foolish as to say that the Italians are the true Ancient Romans. A ntv (talk) 21:02, 3 June 2009 (UTC)[reply]
But we (assyrians) aren't arab, right? i noticed some assyrians refer to themselves as arab even if they're not. on the website, dorgalli-[4] they say the village of fairouzeh is arab exclusively the assyrians. is that meaning that assyrians are excluded from arabs(which i hope)? and why do so many assyrians tend to refer to "arab" food while some others say middle eastern or assyrian?--SchnitzelMannGreek. 18:34, 4 June 2009 (UTC)[reply]
Please take note I'm not of Middle-East origins. A ntv (talk) 19:52, 4 June 2009 (UTC)[reply]
Dont ask this bigot about Assyrian History, he doesnt know shit about it, He himself is a hypocrite who denies the thousands of years of history this ancient people has had from Mesopotamia to modern times. If you want a book to reinforce your beliefs unlike that bigoted sellout John Joseph who is being paid by anti-assyrians (Kurds, Turks) to belittle the people historical impact in ancient times to present. That incompetent Joseph himself was born to an Assyrian family. Look at this book. This book completly destroys John Josephes claims about the anglicans giving us this name. To believe this garbage only shows the level of ignorance some people have. Ishbishmicht (talk) 00:04, 5 June 2009 (UTC)[reply]
Actually, you will find that Assyria existed as an entity right up until the 7th century AD. There is no evidence, let alone proof that the native Mesopotamians were wiped out or removed from thier lands. Many modern orientalists firmly support the continued existance of Assyrians. In addition, Armenian, Persian, Georgian and Russian records use the term Assyrian well before the 19th century. Also take into account the continued use of Assyrian names throughout history.
The term "Syriac" is utterly false, it is generally accepted that it is in fact a Greek Bastardisation of "Assyrian", a fact ignored by many Westerners.
In an interview with Bidawid, published in 2003, he commented on the Assyrian name dispute and declared his ethnic point of view:
“I personally think that these different names serve to add confusion. The original name of our Church was the ‘Church of the East’ ... When a portion of the Church of the East became Catholic, the name given was ‘Chaldean’ based on the Magi kings who came from the land of the Chaldean, to Bethlehem. The name ‘Chaldean’ does not represent an ethnicity... We have to separate what is ethnicity and what is religion... I myself, my sect is Chaldean, but ethnically, I am Assyrian.” —Preceding unsigned comment added by 81.106.116.120 (talk) 00:58, 1 March 2011 (UTC)[reply]
Your question about references to say that Mar Thoma Church is East Syrian. Please compare the liturgy of the Orthodox Churches and that of the Mar Thoma Church. (both in Malayalam). You may also compare the titles given in Malankara Metropolitans.
Your comment – historically they are west Syrian. Do you have any historical document or references (not the books published by so many in the twentieth century) to support it? Neduvelilmathew (talk) 00:23, 3 June 2009 (UTC)[reply]
The birth of the Mar Thomas Church was initially due to the excommunication in 1875 of Mathews mar Athanasius Mathews Mar Athanasius (nephew of the pro-anglican Abraham Malpam) by the Syrian Patriarch of Antionch (i.e. West Syrian rite) Ignatius Mar Peter IV (1872-1894): the Mar Thomas Church thus emerged in 1879-1889 FROM the Malankara Church keeping the heritage, the apostolic succession and the liturgy of the Malankara Church (i.e. the West Syrian Rite, similar to the one of Syrian Orthodoc Church -Jacobite- of Antioch). This historical development is well documented in refs (see for example the many refs in Article Mathews Mar Athanasius).
By itself 'Mar' and nor 'Mor' looks like a local use not a proof for a liturgical heritage. Consider also that any transliteration in Latin characters of Syrian or Arabic words is almost free and transliterations of some centuries ago can be very different from today use.
A comparison of present liturgies could be interesting for me, but anyway it is a WP:NOR (Original research) not allowed in Wiki. To support yout thesis, that after the split from the West Syrian Rite Malankara Church the Mar Thomas Church moved to East Syrian rite, you should find some reliable text to support it, as the verifiability policy (WP:v) says, "In general, the most reliable sources are peer-reviewed journals and books published in university presses; university-level textbooks; magazines, journals, and books published by respected publishing houses; and mainstream newspapers.". Of course possibly in English. A ntv (talk) 06:30, 3 June 2009 (UTC)[reply]
I've found on line what could be a anaphora (liturgical) of the Mar Thomas Church james.zip. It clearly looks like a shortened and protestantized version of the West Syrian (i.e. Antiochian) liturgy of Saint James [[5]]. The same derivation is also stated in Wiki Article Liturgy of St James. It is quite different from a Malabar anaphora. But I don't know if the text I've found is a present text of the Mar Thoma Church. A ntv (talk) 22:09, 3 June 2009 (UTC)[reply]
On August 18, 2009, Did you know? was updated with a fact from the article Prayer of Joseph, which you created or substantially expanded. You are welcome to check how many hits your article got while on the front page (here's how) and add it to DYKSTATS if it got over 5,000. If you know of another interesting fact from a recently created article, then please suggest it on the Did you know? talk page.
On September 2, 2009, Did you know? was updated with a fact from the article Giuseppe Ricciotti, which you created or substantially expanded. You are welcome to check how many hits your article got while on the front page (here's how) and add it to DYKSTATS if it got over 5,000. If you know of another interesting fact from a recently created article, then please suggest it on the Did you know? talk page.
Thank you for your feedback! I was starting to feel like I was editing in a vacuum, and in that sort of situation a little sanity check every once in a while is tremendously helpful. Jminthorne (talk) 22:03, 7 September 2009 (UTC)[reply]
On September 13, 2009, Did you know? was updated with a fact from the article Demetrius the Chronographer, which you created or substantially expanded. You are welcome to check how many hits your article got while on the front page (here's how) and add it to DYKSTATS if it got over 5,000. If you know of another interesting fact from a recently created article, then please suggest it on the Did you know? talk page.
Sorry for deleting some of the stuff from the Nicholas I Zaya article. I was going to put it back once I got things in the right format. I certainly approve of you restoring the ISBN number of my book (The Ecclesiastical Organisation of the Church of the East, 1318-1913)!
I note your comment that the issue of the firman gave a degree of protection to the Chaldean church. I would have thought that the most important change of circumstance, at least as far as the second half of the 19th century was concerned, was the Ottoman campaign of 1847 against Badr Khan Beg and Nurallah, prompted by the 1843 massacre and the subsequent 1846 Kurdish invasion of Tkhuma. The following paragraph from an unpublished book of mine on the history of the Church of the East conveniently summarises this campaign:
In October 1846 Bedr Khan Beg and Nurallah invaded Tkhuma. The Christian villagers of the region were promised shelter by the agha of Chal, but this offer appears to have been merely a ruse. On its way to Chal, a large column of Tkhuma villagers was encircled and massacred by the Kurds. The Kurds also sacked every village and destroyed every church in Tkhuma. Women and children were taken alive, to be sold into slavery, but the Kurds killed every man they caught. The survivors fled over the border to Persia.
The invasion provoked a strong protest from the British government. In the past, distracted by the threat from Muhammad Ali, the Turks had shrunk from challenging Bedr Khan Beg openly. Now, encouraged by the British, they decided to destroy his power by force. Local militia under the governors of Erzerum, Jezira and Mosul sealed off the Bohtan mountains on three sides, and an Ottoman army advanced up the Bohtan river into the heart of Bedr Khan Beg’s domain. His strongholds were captured and the main Kurdish army was routed at Seert in 1847. By 1850 both the khan and Nurallah were captured and exiled, and Ottoman rule was, at last, firmly established in Kurdistan.
If I'm right, I don't think the grant of the firman was of great practical importance for the Chaldean church during the 1850s and 1860s. After all, it didn't help the Chaldeans during the massacres of 1915. I think the extension of Ottoman rule to the Hakkari and Bohtan regions was a far more important factor. In which case it's not really relevant to an article on Nicholas Zaya. I plan to do an article on the Kurdish invasions in the next few weeks, and I think the issue should be discussed there rather than in this article.
In the material I have overwritten I noticed that a possible alternative date of death for Zaya was mentioned. Do you have any idea where that suggestion came from? I am pretty sure he died in 1855, but I'll check the relevant references when I get back from the office this evening.
Hope my brusque amendments haven't upset you too much.
Dear Djwilms, do you remember where the Wilmshurst (pag 316) took the information that Augustine Hindi was consecrated bishop on September 8, 1804 by Isho'yahb Isha'ya Yohannan Gabriel (or Jean Guriel) bishop of Salmas, who in turn was ordained bishop on November 8, 1795 by Yohannan Hormizd ? thank a lot A ntv (talk) 21:35, 5 October 2009 (UTC)[reply]
Either Hornus, Tfindji or Giamil, I would guess. I'll see if I can find the reference for you tonight.
thank you A ntv (talk) 06:19, 6 October 2009 (UTC)[reply]
It's in Tfinkdji, but he mentions it in the section dealing with Augustine Hindi rather than in the biography of Yohannan Gabriel. I copied the file onto a disk before I went to work to let you have the reference this morning, but when I got to the office the disk wouldn't open. I'll let you have it tomorrow.
In the process of hunting down the reference, I discovered that my first draft of the section on the bishops of Salmas in EOCE contains far more information and footnoting than went into the final version of the book, so I'm going to create a new Wikipedia article, Salmas (Chaldean Archdiocese), and paste all this stuff into it.
I forgot to mention that Tfinkdji's article contains photos not only of the Chaldean patriarchs, but of most of the Chaldean bishops of the second half of the nineteenth century. I hope you will upload these photos onto Wikipedia when your copy arrives from Rome. I wouldn't think there would be a copyright problem, as the article is nearly a century old.
Talking of copyright, when I was doing my PhD I remember asking to copy one of Addai Scher's articles in the Bodleian Library. Copyright expired 80 years after the death of the author. I went into the library in June 1995, precisely 80 years to the day after his death. The conversation went as follows:
Assistant: You know it's 80 years, don't you? Do you happen to know when the author died?
Me: Alas, I do. He was murdered by the Turks precisely 80 years ago to this day, in the 1915 Armenian massacres.
Assistant: Oh well, you're in luck, then. There's no problem, you can copy it.
Success! You'll find the reference in Tfinkdji in my new article Salmas (Chaldean Archdiocese), which I will be improving over the next few days.
By the way, who is this moron Ishbishmicht who recently gave you a hard time over Assyrian identity? It's frightening that the world contains people like that. Talking of bigoted nationalists, have you seen my futile attempts to inject some reasoned debate into the article Assyrian Genocide? I've given up on that, life's too short. I'll probably do a separate article, Assyrian Massacres of 1915, written from soundly-based sources, and let the two articles coexist.
I've seen (and wikified) your wonderful article about Salmas! Unfortunatly I've not yet received the copy of Tfinkdji article: I hope I get it soon.
Unfortunately here on Wiki there are some religious/nationalistic groups that use Wiki for their purposes without the love for the historical truth. They are always ready to enter in edit wars (see for example the edit-wars in Chaldean Christians). A particular subject of edit-war is the Assyrian identity as if they are the continuation of the ancient Assyrians (as if I would consider myself an ancient Roman because I'm born in Italy..). Personally, having read a couple of XIX missionary/travel texts about the Church of the East, I believe that the idea of an Assyrian nation was not present at the time of Y.Hormidz, and it looks like to be a modern innovation. About the massacres of 1915, I've summarized my understanding in Chaldean Catholic Church#Expansion and disaster: I'm completely sympathetic with the East Syrians, but I shall also note the Turk's POV that claims that the massacres (that cannot be anyway justifies) were military acts of the WWI. A ntv (talk) 22:01, 8 October 2009 (UTC)[reply]
I see what you mean. Oh dear.
I love the Wikipedia concept, because it puts you into contact with people who share your interests and you also learn a lot, but I also see the point of the traditional, authoritative, top-down Encyclopedia Britannica approach, where you just commission reputable scholars to write the articles. Fortunately, only a tiny proportion of Wikipedia articles generate edit wars (if you want a laugh, go to the discussion page of the article Osama bin Laden), and there ought to be a way of coralling all the zealots, and all the toxic articles, in a separate section of Wikipedia, so they can get on with arguing with each other and allow the rest of us to search for the truth.
By the way, I was approached yesterday by a publisher in the UK to write a popular history of the Church of the East (i.e. not as technical as Baum and Winkler's). I'm seriously tempted, but I've several other publishing commitments at present (not least putting all my stuff on Wikipedia), so I'll have to think about it.
I note your edit on Yohannan Guriel's date of death. I'll see whether Giamil or Hornus have anything to add.
Sorry for some days off from Wiki. I got Tfinkdji's article and I've insert pictures of Abdisho IV Maron, Audishu V Khayyath, Elias Mellus, Eliya Abulyonan, Joseph Audo and Yohannan Hormizd, but unfortunately in a low resolution. Anyway better than nothing. It is great if you can write a good popular text about history of the Church of the East !!! For sure I'll buy it. It would be great if a serious historicist takes a stand on debated issues as the Assyrian identity. Wiki is wonderful, but it is a starting point, an encyclopedia, and it cannot take the place of books. (and the articles shall be looked after, or they can be completely mis-edited. A ntv (talk) 17:37, 13 October 2009 (UTC)[reply]
The publishers seem very interested in my proposal, which is basically to rewrite Baum and Winkler's book in readable English and to develop a number of themes they barely considered. Funnily enough, I was drafting a couple of paragraphs on Assyrian identity in my head as I was on my way to work this morning. 'We know the names of thousands of East Syrian patriarchs, metropolitans, bishops, priests, deacons and scribes between the third and nineteenth centuries, and there is not a Sargon, Sennacherib or Ashurbanipal among them.' 'The Assyrian identity is a modern construct, dating no further back than the fourth quarter of the nineteenth century. The claim of descent from the ancient Assyrians is as preposterous as the claim that the Church of the East was a fifth patriarchate, ranking alongside Rome, Alexandria, Antioch and Constantinople.' 'Expelled from the lands their ancestors had lived in for nearly two millennia, the modern Assyrians have built themselves a virtual homeland on the internet. There, secure from Turkish misgovernment and Kurdish raids, they are finally free to give full rein to their traditional love of disputation.'
I can see this is going to be fun. Meanwhile, well done with those pictures. As you say, it's better than nothing. The great thing is to get these things started, and improve them at your leisure.
Talking of which, I've just created an article Shemsdin (East Syrian Ecclesiastical Province), and have been intrigued by a table of metropolitans of Shemsdin that appears in the article Matran family of Shamizdin. Most of this article is rubbish and deserves to be deleted, but the details given in the table (date of death, location of tomb) may be of some value. I've asked for clarification, but have not so far received any. You wouldn't happen to know anything about the source of these details, would you?
I followed your link to Guriel's book on Syriac grammar and skimmed through his list of patriarchs yesterday. He has some interesting dates for the patriarchs in the 'dark ages' (1318-1552). I think they are probably the dates that underlie the traditional patriarchal chronologies, before the study of manuscript colophons was invented, but I'll do some checking.
Thanks for wikifying my articles. I've still got hundreds of footnotes to add to the ones I've already done, but my instinct is to press on with new stuff and come back to the old stuff later. Apart from anything else, it helps me correct my mistakes.
.... give full rein to their traditional love of disputation.: very funny indeed :) but there is for sure lots of true in it: reading the XIX travel books in such an area the term used is always "Chaldeans" for both who united with Rome and who not. For example in this 1843 text the Nestorian Mar Yohannan explains to the Protestant missionary that he wants to be called "Chaldean", nor "Nestorian", even if the term "chaldean" is -according to him- abused by the Catholic party. For sure the term "Assyrian" does not exist.
Patriach is a term of the VI century that was born in the Byzantine Empire and has no historical sense out from the Byzantine Empire: for this reason the pope BXVI has rejected his title of 'patriarch of the West'. But in Wiki we shall respect all the claims.
About Matran family of Shamizdin article, it is completely un-sourced. Thus don't hesitate to remove all the rubbish.
What is your idea about the list of patriarchs by bishop Eliya of Alqosh (1863-1956) reported by J.F. Coakley, that unites in the 17th century the Shimun line with the Eliya line? a recent forgery? Why this list was not found by the many Protestant missionaries/scholars who visited Qodshanis before 1915? The Wilmshurst is very cautious, but perhaps there have been some scholarship results in the meantime A ntv (talk) 20:28, 14 October 2009 (UTC)[reply]
I'm sure there's genuine fact behind that list of metropolitans. The clincher for me was the name David Hnanisho, as there's a colophon reference to a natar kursya of Shemsdin named David at just the right time.
I am now rethinking the metropolitan Ishoyahb, whom I included among the metropolitans of Shemsdin in EOCE. The name's not right for Shemsdin, and I now begin to suspect he was really a metropolitan of Salmas. I'll check to see whether that would fit.
I've not seen any further developments on Coakley's list of patriarchs. I noticed recently that Gorgias Press (what a wonderful institution!) has published a book on the dates of the Nestorian patriarchs, so I will go to their website and order it today. I am suspicious on principle on lists provided by dodgy East Syrian bishops, unless some of the assertions can be verified from other sources. Eliya Abuna was not exactly a paragon of saintliness, and also had an interest in claiming that the apostolic succession in the Church of the East ran through the Abuna family. If he could demonstrate that the patriarchates had been reunited in the seventeenth century, he could get around the inconvenient fact that the succession had in fact run in the Shemon line after 1552. If the Eliyas had recovered this line of succession through union with the Shemons in the seventeenth century, then he, Eliya Abuna, a good Catholic and a loyal servant of the Vatican, would be the natural choice as the next patriarch of Babylon. And as little is known about the Shemon succession in the sixteenth and seventeenth centuries, he could plausibly fill in the gaps without fear of contradiction. You see my problem with his evidence?
Assyrian identity and political correctness. You're right about 'Chaldean'. They also called themselves Suryaye and Nastoraye (Badger). I think you might also perhaps call yourself an Athoraya if you lived in the Mosul plain, but only in the geographical sense. I will be mentioning all the colophons which say that such-and-such a manuscript was written 'in the church of the blessed Nestorians' in such-and-such a village.
I'd better do some work now, I suppose, as that's what they pay me for. Much more fun talking about the Nestorians, but there we are.
In an interview with Bidawid, published in 2003, he commented on the Assyrian name dispute and declared his ethnic point of view:
“I personally think that these different names serve to add confusion. The original name of our Church was the ‘Church of the East’ ... When a portion of the Church of the East became Catholic, the name given was ‘Chaldean’ based on the Magi kings who came from the land of the Chaldean, to Bethlehem. The name ‘Chaldean’ does not represent an ethnicity... We have to separate what is ethnicity and what is religion... I myself, my sect is Chaldean, but ethnically, I am Assyrian.” —Preceding unsigned comment added by 81.106.116.120 (talk) 01:01, 1 March 2011 (UTC)[reply]
Dear Djwilms, which is the modern name for Gazarda? I cant find a wikilink. A ntv (talk) 08:10, 28 October 2009 (UTC)
The town known as Gazarta d'Beth Zabdai ('the island of Zabdicene') by the East and West Syrians, because it was built on an island in the Tigris river in the district known to the Romans as Zabdicene and the Syrians as Beth Zabdai, is modern Cisre in eastern Turkey (properly spelled with a cedilla below the c), which until the Turkish spelling reforms was commonly known by its Arabic name as Jezira ibn Umar, Jezira, Jazirah, Jazireh or variants thereof. (I think Badger spells it Jezeerah.) It lies roughly midway between Mosul and Diyabarkr (Amid). Typing in Jezira gets you a link to the province of that name, not the town, and I haven't been able to find a Wikipedia article on the town under any of its names. I'm not sure whether any of this is helpful from the point of view of linking it. I'm surprised there's no article on the town, though. I'll do another search when I have time.
I'm glad for your edit, which brought to light the inadequacy of the then existing Dab entry for the medieval Christian center. If the way i've redone it doesn't IYO work (i don't claim to grasp the historical issues you've raised yet, but only some MoSDab ones), i'd like for one of us (me if you ask) to copy this note to talk:Kozan, Adana along with our respective summaries in the edit history: if i haven't met your concerns in the latest version, it may be that i need to be educated, or the article needs to be amplified or even split, to ensure its accessibility to those who seek it at Sis. I'll watch here for a while for any response from you (so we can keep the dialogue easy to follow even for latecomers), but rattle my cage at User talk:Jerzy if i seem to have forgotten, & i'll reappear here long enuf to help be sure we get set up at the article's talk page. --Jerzy•t 08:59, 31 October 2009 (UTC)[reply]
Hi there! Thanks so much for wikifying my recent clutch of articles on the Chaldean dioceses. It looks as though I will get a contract for a book on the Church of the East to be written in the next twelve months, so I have spent most of today updating my knowledge of the Chaldean Church since 1990, when I last took a serious interest in it. The fruits of my research (Isn't Wikipedia wonderful?) are to be found in the last few paragraphs of the article Post-1913 Dioceses of the Church of the East. I am sure you know as least as much as I do on what has been going on in the past two decades, so anything you can do to add to my list of bishops in 2009 will be most welcome. I'm sure there's more that can be said. For your information, I've been using the Patriarchate of Babylon website linked to the article Joseph Audo.
Dear Djwilms, I kindly ask you to check the content of my new articles Rabban Hormizd Monastery, and Rabban Hormizd (Saint) (as per George Percy Badger, I'm tring to add new articles on often cited issue - I'm looking for material about Fiey and Tfinkdji).
I'm going on with wikification of articles of you, and I would suggest to create a new catergory "Dioceses of the Church of the East" and to remove those articles from "Bishops of the Assyrian Church of the East" and "Chaldean bishops".
In order to go on with the Articles on the lives of Patriarchs of the Shimun line after Abdisho Maron, I've bought the Beltrami La Chiesa caldea nel secolo dell'unione, but unfortunatly the more sources I get the more un-matching data I found. Thus I cannot proceed. Perhaps it is better not to have a single article for each Patriach, but a general Article on the whole line.
As last issue, if you have time, can please have a look to Abraham Shimonaya, an Article that has been created by some editor with an automatic translation from de:Abraham Shimonaya. I cant read German, thus I cannot end the copyedit work of the Article because I've not understood the whole story A ntv (talk) 18:33, 15 November 2009 (UTC)
Sorry I haven't got back to you earlier, but I only noticed your post this morning. The articles on Rabban Hormizd Monastery and Rabban Hormizd are a great start. I've got a lot of material on the history of the monastery which didn't make it into my book, and I'll begin adding it to your article when I have time.
I'll also tidy up the Abraham Shimonaya article when I have time.
I got the book contract for a history of the Church of the East, and as they want the finished version by October 2010 I've been enormously busy assembling material for the book and rewriting stuff so it's less academic. Alas, this will probably limit the amount of work I can do on Wikipedia during the next few months, but I'll try to keep things going there with at least one edit per day, no matter how trivial.
You're probably right about the Shemons. There's so little information on many of them that it's hardly possible to write an article on them. Here, for example, is all I can say about one of them in my book: 'Shem'on XVI Yohannan (1780–1820) does not appear to have corresponded with the Vatican, and no details are known of his career.'
I'd dearly love to sort out the dates of the Nestorian patriarchs in the seventeenth and eighteenth centuries. I've now got the book from Gorgias Press on the subject but it's very disappointing. Just a series of lists with no critical discussion as to their authority. I'm no wiser now than I was a month ago. There must be accurate information somewhere in Iraq, like that list of metropolitans of Shemsdin, but where is it?
I've started work on the Abraham Shimonaya article. I'll try to do a couple of sentences a day to sort it out. I don't read German very well either, but I'm familiar with the background and I can make a good guess at the intended meaning. There's not actually anything there, as far as I can see, that hasn't been covered either by Chip Coakley or myself in our books.
thank you. The issue on such article was that it could not be readable. Thank again A ntv (talk) 07:03, 15 December 2009 (UTC)[reply]
I've sorted out the Abraham Shimonaya article. Basically, I cut the Gordian knot by deleting all the German and replacing it with my stuff from EOCE. I'll footnote it later. I'm going to recycle some of this article into a new article, Chaldean Diocese of Hakkari, which will include the village statistics given by Tfinkdji.
On a completely different subject, during an interview with Yohannan Hormizd in 1828 (I think it's in Briere) Joseph Audo told him that he was 'not fit to be deacon of the Kabbanaye, let alone patriarch', a point of view that I can't help sympathising with. But who were the Kabbanaye? Presumably inhabitants of a Chaldean village famed for their stupidity. The only candidate that comes to mind is Tel Qabin in the diocese of Gazarta, but its villagers would be Qabinaye, I would have thought. I was thinking of including this splendid insult in my book, but it rather loses its point unless one can identify the Kabbanaye. You wouldn't happen to know, would you?
Long time no see. You might want to get involved in the ongoing discussion (on the discussion page of Church of the East) on what exactly happened in 1552. I've just created a new article, which you could probably make some very useful contributions to.
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Hello! Your submission of Macarios III Zaim at the Did You Know nominations page has been reviewed, and there still are some issues that may need to be clarified. Please review the comment(s) underneath your nomination's entry and respond there as soon as possible. Thank you for contributing to Did You Know! Nsk92 (talk) 17:05, 12 July 2010 (UTC)[reply]
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Long time no see. I wonder whether you could shed any light on Cardinal Eugene Tisserant's hint that Joseph III was murdered. Here's the relevant extract from his 1931 article Eglise nestorienne (columns 241-2), which I have translated into English. Tisserant had just been speaking about Joseph's fund-raising efforts in Poland and Italy in the 1730s:
The long wait seems to have cooled the affection of his flock for its shepherd. A sharp disagreement ensued, since the old patriarch wished to provide for his succession by appointing as his coadjutor a young priest aged 23 or 25, named Antonio Gallo in the Italian documents. Joseph III acted without seeking the views of the faithful and the clergy, and on 20 November 1754 consecrated Antonio at Mardin without prior notice. (A correction is required to the list of metropolitans of Amid given by Tfinkdji, which omits his name. Tfinkdji, op. cit., p. 488, extract, p. 40.) The Catholics protested at Rome, and on 31 May 1756 the Propaganda nullified the election. (MS Vatican Latin 8063, folios 234-49, contains a report of Cardinal Tamburini and other papers relative to this affair.)
But the presumptive successor to the patriarchate died on 11 January 1757, and twelve days later Joseph III also died suddenly, and perhaps violently (MS Vatican Latin 8063, folio 294). [The rest of the paragraph deals with Joseph IV.]
You wouldn't happen to have access to Tamburini's report, would you? I haven't seen it myself, and would be interested to see what he has to say.
No, unfortunatly I cannot access to such manuscript. In the article I took the info about Antonio Gallo from Freeze book. Anyway if I find somethink I'll write you. A ntv (talk) 16:45, 27 August 2010 (UTC)[reply]
Thanks. Embarrassingly, I forgot to mention Anton Gallo in EOCE. Strange things seem to have been going on in the Chaldean Church at this period. The metropolitan Timothy Masaji of Amid also died on 31 December 1756, possibly poisoned. That makes one patriarch, one metropolitan and one defrocked metropolitan dead within a month of each other. Coincidence?
I remember to have read something about the violence in that period, but I cannot remember where. Perhaps in the "Sacrae Congregationis de Propaganda Fide Memoria Rerum. Herder" or in the Rabbath, but I'ld have to go to library (not in my town) to check. Anyway I remembered it was wiolence coming from the Nestorian party. Lazar Hindi in 1756 was only 20 years old. A ntv (talk) 06:17, 30 August 2010 (UTC)[reply]
That's interesting. Timothy Masaji is said to have been 'poisoned by the Nestorians', but Tisserant doesn't say whether Joseph III was rubbed out by disgruntled Chaldeans or was also a victim of the Nestorians. I'll see if I can find anything in the sources you mention.
You mentioned the 'Freeze book'. What would that be? I don't think I've seen it. I really need to find out a bit more about Josephs III and IV in the next couple of weeks, and maybe it could help.
Sorry for my wrong spelling, I referred to C.A., Frazee, (2006). Catholics and Sultans: The Church and the Ottoman Empire 1453-1923. City: Cambridge University Press. ISBN0521027004.{{cite book}}: CS1 maint: extra punctuation (link) CS1 maint: multiple names: authors list (link) which surely you have but however it does not go in the detail you need. It speaks about Antun Galla, but says nothing about a possible murder of Thimoty Maroge, who it says died at 95 (!!) on 23 Jan 1757. The sources used for such chapters are Gaiamil, Tisserant, Assemani De catholicis 243-4, Fiey Mossoul chretienne (Beirut 1959) 60-1, Assemani Biblioteca orientalis ii ! 578-84. A ntv (talk) 18:05, 8 April 2011 (UTC)[reply]
Thanks for that. So there's nothing not already in Assemani, Giamil, Fiey and Tisserant. The long account in Giamil, from a report made by Joseph III to the Vatican, is basically an appeal for money, and only covers the earlier part of Joseph's reign. He wrote it shortly before he returned from Rome to Iraq. I must dig up my translation from the Latin, as it contains some interesting information on his life in Iraq before he left for Rome (being shot at by a disgruntled Nestorian on one occasion, as I remember).
If you need a help with Latin, I know it and I'm Italian. Please also note, if you dont already know about, of the service of the Archive of Propaganda Fide link which can provide photocopies of the ancient documents. A ntv (talk) 19:42, 11 April 2011 (UTC)[reply]
Thanks for that. I will have several photocopying orders for them, not for the forthcoming book but just out of general interest. I am becoming increasingly interested in the CoE in the eighteenth century, and am thinking of doing a separate study on just that period, before the Protestant missionaries appeared on the scene.
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Thank you for your kind words, much appreciated. I am aware of your articles too, likewise well done! Cheers, Constantine ✍ 20:25, 20 September 2010 (UTC)[reply]
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Hi there!
Some lovely new images (particularly the 'artist's impression' of Sulaqa), and with luck I will be able to reproduce the photo of Abdisho V Khayyath in my forthcoming book (to be published in April). Well done for finding them!
Please read WP:LISTPEOPLE. If a person in a list does not have an article in Wikipedia about them, a citation (or link to another article) must be provided to establish their membership in the list's group and to establish their notability. The person's membership in the list's group is established by reliable sources.
If you have a ref for an entry, add it to the entry. It does not good to add it to the header -- you have no control over later-added entries, and cannot assure that the ref will apply to them. If an entry itself lacks an article or a proper ref, it will be deleted in accordance with the guideline.--Epeefleche (talk) 06:36, 5 April 2011 (UTC)[reply]
Your edit looked quite POV because it deleted only a little portion of the names of the list, leaving other names even if equally without reference or links. So it was very suspicious: you know that still today there is a dispute between the Patriarchate of Moscow and of Constantinople over the Metropolia of Kiew, and you deleted only the list of the metropolitans that referred to Constantinople, so supporting the claim of the Muscovite supremacy. PS The general Article is History of Christianity in Ukraine (even if to be improved)
WP:LISTPEOPLE dont ask to delete at all. It asks to check the the notability (for sure there is), the significancy (for sure there is) and the sources. I could expect an unsourced tag, not a deletion, particularly for these important (at least for Ukrainans) articles. It is very easy to find references for these kinds of lists of important positions, as I did, but surely there are thousand of other refs possible.
I've moved the ref entry from the header to each line, even if I dont like the result.A ntv (talk) 07:07, 5 April 2011 (UTC)[reply]
If you were to look through my edit history, you would see that I have removed entries that fail to comply -- no article, and no ref -- from dozens of lists. Usually I start off only removing a few of the entries, as there are many lists to work on, and on will come back to them. Ultimately, I remove all of the entries. No POV involved at all. No need to spend your time exploring my edit history in this regard, but you should feel free to. It has nothing to do with the dispute to which you refer. As to the guideline, it specifically does say that If a person in a list does not have an article in Wikipedia about them, a citation (or link to another article) must be provided to establish their membership in the list's group and to establish their notability. In the normal course I might well add a cite requested tag; at least if it were not a BLP, or a highly questionable area. Here, there is a super-requirement that applies to lists of people, as indicated above. That is why I deleted the entries, with an edit summary pointing to the issue at hand. I've been cleaning up lists for most countries listed on wp -- I've not the time or the inclination to search for the refs that the person who added the entry failed to supply. Nor is the onus on me -- the guideline puts the onus on the person seeking to add the entry. Understand, btw, that many of the nations' people lists have been replete with bogus entries. No doubt it is the habit of people adding bogus entries to such lists that drove the rule. --Epeefleche (talk) 07:27, 5 April 2011 (UTC)[reply]
I see. I fully agree that the lists are usually among the worse pages of Wiki. Many are taken years ago from unsourced internet pages and are full of errors. Many have been modified to support some POV (Sorry I thought that your edit was from some religious fanatic). And almost all lists of ancient historical people are simply scholars conjectures, so they should be considered and managed as articles about history listing all main suppositions, not as containers of people. When possible and where I'm competent I review also the lists as in List of Maronite Patriarchs. Rathen than delete lists which anyway are expected to be, the best should probably add some huge unsourced tag on top of sections as it is usually done with articles of history without or poorly referenced. A ntv (talk) 08:28, 5 April 2011 (UTC)[reply]
No worries. I understand how, inadvertently, by deleting piecemeal I could have raised that presumption, as I wandered unwittingly into a disputed area. For all I know, on other lists, people think I have a bias against all people whose last name begins with the letters A and B, while I am partial to those with the letter C. Even if we bypass AGF in these moments, though, in moments like this it is probably worth your while to glance at the other editor's edit history, which might dispel such concerns (as here). As I said above, the approach taken from the project is not to tag such items on lists, but to not include them on lists, which has spurred my effort. We may in fact have a bot doing this in the future, which I will be happy for. BTW -- I don't tilt towards willy nilly baseless deletions, but it doesn't strike me as unreasonable to ask, as the guideline does, that any entry have the requisite underlying article or ref. If they are easily had, then it is not that much work.
BTW as well -- some editors are more demanding than I am, and will seek to insist that a list ... it would appear, of a group they have a POV issue with ... must have a ref even if they have an article. See, e.g., what someone has done here. And I even found myself arguing with an editor recently who oddly is energetically insisting that one ref is never enough to support a redlinked entry, but that multiple refs are always required ... so while you may view my application of the guideline as annoying, I do seek to be reasonable as compared with some of our peers. The discussion about multiple refs, which you should of course read and/or join if you like, is here.--Epeefleche (talk) 08:46, 5 April 2011 (UTC)[reply]
Hi there! Keep up the good work on creating articles on individual Chaldean bishops. I liked your articles on Stephen Jibri and Yohannan Guriel. I'll try to help with additional material once I have a spare moment, but at present I'm finalising maps and illustrations for my forthcoming book. Nearly there, though!
I should have more time for Wikipedia contributions after Easter, and hope to get back to my suite of articles on patriarchs.
I've sen you have worked on List of Syriac Catholic Patriarchs of Antioch, of which I've written many articles. My concern is that all the bishops from 518 to 1662 :(or 1783) exist also in the other Article List of Syriac Orthodox Patriarchs of Antioch. I may suggest to rearrange these lists as follow: one common list for the :patriarch 518-1783 (named something like List of Syriac Patriarchs of Antioch 518-1783), and to use the other two lists one for the Catholics only and the other for :Orthodox only from 1783. Your idea? A ntv (talk) 21:56, 9 April 2011 (UTC)
I think it's a fine idea, I think the replication is unnecessary and does add an additional burden to maintaining the lists. My intent with my recent changes was to actually point out the periods where there was no separate Syrian Catholic hierarchy. I think this also makes sense since there is already a single list for the pre-518 period before the Syriac/Eastern Orthodox split Jztinfinity (talk) 22:19, 9 April 2011 (UTC)[reply]
I leave it to you to work out how there could have been an eparchy headed by a titular bishop. It's normal for an apostolic vicar to be the bishop of a titular see, but an eparch is bishop of the eparchy itself. Did you really mean to move the indication of the titular see held by what you call "eparchs" of Marča from the position where it could be understood to refer not to the first head of the see but only of his successors to a position where it applies even to him?
The Annuario Pontificio says: I Vicariati Apostolici sono le circoscrizioni ecclesiastiche, rette da un Vicario Apostolico, stabilite nei luoghi di missione, dove non è stata ancora pienamente organizzata la gerarchia ecclesiastica (can. 371, §1). Dal Vicario Apostolico, che governa a nome del Sommo Pontefice il terrorio ad esso assegnato, dipendono tutte le missioni, cioè la stazioni missionarie che esplicano la loro attività nel territorio stesso. Il Vicario Apostolico è di regola un Vescovo titolare. I primi Vicariati Apostolici, nel senso che ha ora questa denominazione, furono istituiti nel sec. XVII.
Older editions added: La maggior parte dei Vicariati Apostolici dipendono dalla S. Congr. de Propaganda Fede; gli altri dalla S. Congr. per la Chiesa Orientale.
Questo vale ancora: dipendono dalla Congregazione per le Chiese Orientali, per esempio, i Vicariati Apostolici (tutti di rito latino) di Alep, Alessandria di Egitto, Anatolia, Bairut, Thessaloniki. Esoglou (talk) 20:56, 22 April 2011 (UTC)[reply]
Well, I've modified the Article Eparchy of Križevci with a wording from CR1913. However "apostolic vicar" was correct. Three considerations:
1) "... depu(tatur) vic(arius) apost(olicus) supra Vallachos ..." is find for each bishop of Plataea in HC5 [6] pag 317. As you know, HC is compiled on the original Vatican documents and it is the more reliable source in history of catholic hierarchy. So non doubt that "vicarius apostolicus" is the appropriate term.
2) the terms like "vicarius apostolicus" now have a very detailed meaning, but once a time were used more freely. So the Annuario Pontificio says "I primi Vicariati Apostolici, nel senso che ha ora questa denominazione, furono istituiti nel sec. XVII". We cannot assume that the present meaning (ordinariates direct subject to the Pope) was the fixed meaning in the 17th century: at the time the term meant simply "ordinariate" (even not directly subject). We have the same problems of not fixed terminology when we compile ancient lists of Encyclical, apostolic constitution ect.
3) you have to take note of the particular situation in such centuries for the new European Eastern Catholic Churches. Actually the unions of Union of Uzhhorod, of Alba Julia and here of Marca were negotiated and agreed, not with Rome, but with the Habsburg Monarchy, which at the time appointed the bishops and could take ecclesiastic decisions on jurisdictions (the popes simply confirmed). Thus the Habsburg Monarchy erected the Eparchies of Mukacheve (1646), Alba Julia (1700), Oradea (1736), Marča (1612) and went on calling them "eparchies" and granting them all the rights of dioceses.
Rome initially had the problem that the canons of the council of Trent requested each area to be under a single diocese/bishop, thus not permitting to have two bishops (one Latin and one Byzantine) sharing the same title/area. So the initial position of Rome was to formally denominate these byzantine eparchies as "titula sees", but anyway considering them a full ordinariate (here the "apostolic vicar").
So the Eparchies were eparchies for the government (and also legally and for all pratical purposes), but for Rome the eparch was an apostolic vicar: this solution was not-well defined and also led to conflicts with the corresponding Latin bishops.
This solution was temporary: After some years Rome fully accepted the requests of the Habsburg Monarchy, and so granted to these eparchies also the title: in 1721 it was erected the eparchy of Alba Julia (well, with the title of Fagaras for the complains of the Latin bishop of AJ), in 1771 Mukacheve, in 1777 Oradea Mare, always in 1777 Marca/Križevci. I hope to have explained a bit. Thanks again for the copyedit A ntv (talk) 23:34, 22 April 2011 (UTC)[reply]
Thanks for your consideration. I am somewhat surprised that at that time the monarchs (or any Westerners) used the word "eparchy", rather than "diocese", for the jurisdictions they were setting up, but doubtless you know better. Until much later, appointments by Rome for Eastern-rite jurisdictions were under the care of the Congregation de Propaganda Fide, which, I believe, appointed for them "apostolic vicars", not "bishops of dioceses", as they did also for mission territories like India, where the apostolic vicars were sometimes in conflict with the bishops appointed by the Portuguese king by virtue of the Padroado. (The Wikipedia article on this mentions a conflict about a church in Singapore, but I think the conflicts in India, particularly in Bombay, were much more numerous and long-lasting.) Naturally, the Congregation used "apostolic vicariate", not "diocese", to refer to the areas under the pastoral governance of "apostolic vicars". The Annuario Pontificio says that the modern meaning of "apostolic vicar" came into use in the 17th century, precisely the century in which the Congregation was set up and the appointments under discussion occurred. If you went back some centuries before, you would find that "apostolic vicar" then designated not a titular bishop who is pastor for an area that for some reason cannot be erected as a diocese (and so cannot have a bishop of its own) but instead someone holding authority for a whole country in some ways superior to that of the bishops of the dioceses in the country. Take Saint Altmann of Passau as an example. (And, of course, the title was given to the Bishop of Thessalonica, before the Byzantine Emperor placed Thessalonica under Constantinople rather than Rome.) But, as I said, I am leaving it to you to examine the question. Esoglou (talk) 06:41, 23 April 2011 (UTC)[reply]
Well, I think that in English we can easily translate "Crisiensis greci ritu catholicorum Episcopatus" with "eparchy of Križevci". If we check the Nillis (the source of 1913CE article Crisium), we have the confirmation that the eparchy was named by the Habsburg monarchy before 1777 as "Episcopatus Svidnicensis" (pag 703ss) and after 1777 as "Crisiensis greci ritu catholicorum Episcopatus" (pag 763). The terminology of Rome was slightly different, for the reasons I explained before: in the 1777 original decree (in De Martinis vol IV pag 224ss) we found ".. dicti vicariatus apostolici ... perpetuo penitus supprimimus et extinguimus; ...oppidum Grisiense praedictum civitatis episcopalis titulo et honore eadem .... decoramus; .... Pro diocesi vero eiusdem futuri Episcopi Crisiensis greci ritus uniti huiusmodi limites eiusdem per Croatiam et slavoniam...". But we shall consider that the Latin of such centuries had not the terms "eparchy" and "eparch": even for the Melkite eparchies the terms used were "episcopus" and "diocesis" (see the Mansi vol 46 passim). A ntv (talk) 08:06, 23 April 2011 (UTC)[reply]
It seems then that, in the whole of the time that it existed, Marča was never called an eparchy or a diocese, but was always known either by the precise technical term "apostolic vicariate" (vicariatus apostolicus) used by Rome, or by the generic term "episcopacy" (episcopatus) used by Vienna. When Marča was "suppressed and extinguished", it was still called an apostolic vicariate, in contrast to the new entity that arose, which was initially called a "diocese" (dioecesis) and, whenever the term "eparchy" (eparchia) came into use, began to be called an eparchy. I would tend to see the change from Marča to the new entity as similar to the replacement, in the mid-19th century, of the apostolic vicariates in England by dioceses. But I will raise no objection to whatever you decide. Esoglou (talk) 11:29, 23 April 2011 (UTC)/[reply]
I've done sone change to the article hoping to met some suggestions of you. The other issue is if we should modify the title of the section from "Eparchy of Marca" (taken from the German wiki) to "Episcopatus Svidnicensis", or in English "Eparchy Svidnicensis" (I dont like), but the term "Episcupum Maciensum" is anyway found in the Nilles pag LXXXIII, so it is sourced (I've found also some google-books resust for "marcanska eparhija" as [7]).
Ok if we follow a strict Catholic terminology we should title it "Apostolic Vicatiate of Plataea", but here -very differently from the 19th century apostolic vicariates in England- legally and for all practical purposes the actual situation was that decided by the government, not that registered in Rome. And for the Habsburg governement it was an "episcopatus" after as well as before the 1777. So, because Wiki is not a register of the Catholic church, I may suggest to maintain the more appropriate historical title which is Eparchy of Marca. I'm always open to our suggestions. A ntv (talk) 17:01, 23 April 2011 (UTC)[reply]
No, not "Apostolic Vicariate of Plataea". Certainly not. A vicar apostolic is Bishop of Titular See X (or Titular Bishop of X), but he is Vicar Apostolic of Y, his apostolic vicariate, and the apostolic vicariate keeps its own name, Apostolic Vicariate of Y, whatever may be the titular sees (X or Z or ...) held by its successive apostolic vicars. Vienna, it seems, did not specify the character of the episcopacy/bishopric that was set up. An apostolic vicariate, being headed by a bishop, can very well be called a bishopric (episcopatus) also by Rome, but not a diocese. Just more food for thought by you. I make no concrete proposal myself. Esoglou (talk) 18:12, 23 April 2011 (UTC)[reply]
Merci, mais je cherchais des références à cette partie de la succession apostolique de l'évêque Rahoza (dans Wiki-en, je vous écris toutes les séries dela des articles tels que Samuil VulcanIoan BobGrigore Maior, Basil Božičković ect). Regard à CH n'a rien sur cette question mais j'ai vu dans ro: Alexandru Dung-Şuluţiu est la liste complète, et je serait utile d'avoir la référence de cette liste (qui est toujours correcte, dans la mesure Je pouvais voir à partir de textes édités). A ntv (talk) 19:07, 2 May 2011 (UTC)[reply]
Awesome contribution to the historical articles about Ukrain Greek Catholic Church! I am contributing Ukrainian Wikipedia in this topic. If you sometime need some kind of help, you can write on my discussion page in the Ukrainian Wiki. Олег Чупа (talk) 20:28, 23 May 2011 (UTC)[reply]
thank you a lot for your appreciation. I too appreciate your work, as the photo of Patriarch Shevchuk !!. May I kindly ask you how to translate "в жовтні 1653 р. стає коленда, котрий був висвячений на єпископа мстиславського." I cannot speak Ukrainian and I have to use GoogleTranslation which is not accurate. єпископа looks like a genitive, so I wrote in Havryil Kolenda "consecrated a bishop with the title of bishop of Mstsislaw" but I could not check this fact on other texts. Thanks !! A ntv (talk) 21:12, 23 May 2011 (UTC)[reply]
was consecrated a bishop = висвячений на єпископа . In both languages this expression is in passive mode. So your translation is perfect :) I always with pleasure will help you. I understand English well but it's difficult to me to write, because I think in Ukrainian :) — Preceding unsigned comment added by Олег Чупа (talk • contribs) 11:31, 25 May 2011 (UTC)[reply]
Hi. Thanks for very many fine edits, particularly on Eastern Christianity. Your offer on Talk:Melchizedek to move the large chunk of Urantia Book WP:OR to it's own article is very tolerant generous etc., but might be easier to just cut and paste onto Talk page itself. WP:Weight doesn't really justify... same for overweight Mormon content. This happens on some Hebrew Bible figure's pages, Enoch is another example. Best wishes. In ictu oculi (talk) 02:17, 26 May 2011 (UTC)[reply]
For myself I would have simply deleted all the material about Melchizedek in the UB. But this is not a solution because it may look as a POV, and such material was once removed and a few days after returned. IMHO in these cases the best is to move the low weight material to a his own article, in order to grant it its own value and in the same time to clear the main article. About Mormonism, well, it surely has more weight than the UB (the population of Mormons is more or less comparable with the population of Jews) and M. is a key figure in such religion, so I consider it can stay. A ntv (talk) 20:24, 26 May 2011 (UTC)[reply]
Hi, I read their story and I was so impressed that i was about to print their full story to the kids in sunday schools but there were some points that weren't clear so I hit wikipedia and I haven't found this article. is it about the clear notability thing? --Proud coptic (talk) 22:52, 16 June 2011 (UTC)[reply]
Use Callinicus IV. The simple fact is that Callinicus III was elected as Patriarch, but is not always recognized becaue he was not formally enthroned. AFAIK the majority of sources accord him the office, and the issue of (non-)recognition is something that should be explained in the article itself, not adopted in the title. The same goes for Callinicus IV, V, etc. Constantine ✍ 07:01, 21 June 2011 (UTC)[reply]
No problem! BTW, excellent work on the articles, keep it up! Constantine ✍ 08:28, 21 June 2011 (UTC)[reply]
The Christianity Barnstar
For countering systemic bias and providing dozens of well-written, well-researched and interesting biographies of Eastern Christian religious leaders. Keep it up! Constantine ✍ 16:02, 22 June 2011 (UTC)[reply]
Hi there, long time no see. I've just been reading through your splendid articles on the Syrian Catholic patriarchs. You have been busy! Keep it up, and I'll help you add to them when I get time.
Just one small point. Many of the names you use are French, not English. Ignace is simply the French name for Ignatius. Could I suggest you use the following names in the articles, as these are the standard English renderings of the patriarchs' names:
Andrew Akijan (1662–78);
Ignatius Peter Gregory (1678–1701);
Ignatius Mikhail Jarweh (1783–c.1800);
Ignatius Mikhail IV Daher (1802–10);
Ignatius Shemon Hindi Zora (1814–18);
Ignatius Peter Jarweh (1820–51);
Ignatius Antun I Samheri (1852–64);
Ignatius Philip Arkus (1866–74);
Ignatius Giwargis Shelhot (1874–91);
Ignatius Behnam Benni (1893–7);
Ignatius Ephrem II Rahmani (1898–1929);
Ignatius Gabriel I Tappuni (1929–68);
Ignatius Antun II Hayyek (1968–98);
Ignatius Musa I David (1998–2001);
Ignatius Peter VIII Abdalahad (2001–8); and
Ignatius Joseph III Yonan (from 2009).
My book on the Church of the East is coming out in September, and I will probably follow it up with a book on the Syrian Orthodox and Catholic Churches.
yes I made the Ignace error many times. I have to fix it but it takes some time: I shall begin to use AWB.
I still miss the second patriarch (Gregory) Sabbadine: sources are not clear, the Fraaze makes a bit confusion. I got the Franch primary suorce but I ve to work on it. Then there is the intresting period betwwen 1702 and 1783 but I got only a German text on it I have still to translate (German is difficuolt for me). About the period 1800 1820 souces are very scarse: I ld read Arabic (the Terrazzi) but I cannot read Arabic at all.
I for sure will buy you new book :) A ntv (talk) 09:25, 11 July 2011 (UTC)[reply]
I recently bought Frazee, probably on your recommendation, and was rather disappointed. It's a good introduction to the contacts between the Roman Church and the various Christian Churches under Turkish rule, but once you start looking at areas you know about (in my case, the Nestorian and Chaldean Churches), it's full of errors. That makes me less likely to trust the book on, say, the Greek Orthodox Church, which I don't know anything about.
I've got a couple of scholarly articles somewhere on the Syrian Catholic Church, and will see what (if anything) they have to say on Gregory Sabbadine.
fixed all the Ignace to Ignatius ! A ntv (talk) 21:04, 14 July 2011 (UTC)[reply]
Well done! When I've got time, I'll go through all your patriarchal articles myself and make any further changes to reflect common English usage.
BTW, I have just been asked by Gorgias Press to translate the Chronicon Ecclesiasticum of Bar Hebraeus for their new Syriac historiography series. I've already translated about half of it for the purposes of my forthcoming book, and we have agreed that I should complete my translation by December 2012. It's about time that this particular work of Bar Hebraeus appeared in English, and I'm also hoping that, as I familiarise myself with the history of the Jacobite Church, it will spur me to do a series of articles on the Syrian Orthodox patriarchs up to the sixteenth century rather like those I have already done on the Nestorian patriarchs.
In 2013 I'll buy it!. Unfortunatly it is by far easier to find literature in Western languages on Eastern Catholic Patriarches rather than on Orthodox ones. I'm now writing some articles on the Patriarches on Constantinople and I there is only one book in Western language (by Runcimann, and very limitated in extend) on the whole Church history 1453-1800: only some mmaterial in Greek, difficoult to retrive and quite apologetic, and some studies only on the two main figures. About the Jacobites, the text of John (ref in Ignatius Gregory Peter VI Shahbaddin) looks like to be very intresting, and I'm going to buy it (if I can find it). A ntv (talk) 13:58, 19 July 2011 (UTC)[reply]
Thanks very much for the pointer to John Joseph. I've read and enjoyed his book on the Nestorians, and I too must get his book on the Jacobites. I'm far less familiar with the history of the Jacobite Church after the fifteenth century than I am with that of the Church of the East. Joseph's book, which seems to be well-informed and well-written, will fill in the gaps nicely.
Hello! This is just to let you known that I have just nominated Patriarch Joasaph I of Constantinople at DYK. Feel free to tinker around with the nomination if you want. Keep up the good work! Constantine ✍ 12:34, 19 July 2011 (UTC)[reply]
Thank you a lot, both for the nomination and for you copyedit work! A ntv (talk) 13:59, 19 July 2011 (UTC)[reply]
Thanx alot, you need arabic one or english? actully there is no so much about this there is abook "الجامع المفصل في تاريخ الموارنة المؤصل" from here [8] there is hobich family website talk about the Pat. in arabic too, here [9]— Preceding unsigned comment added by 82.137.200.50 (talk) 17:47, 29 August 2011 (UTC)[reply]
Thanks a lot!!! no, I cant read Arabic, but I cant find this information in English sources. However your links are very helpful, because I can ask try to analyze them with Google-translate. The episcopal consecration in 1820 of Patriarch Hobaish is important because all present Maronite bishop derive their episcopal line from him. He was probably Patriarch John Helou (whose episcopal line goes back of one century and half), but no source I have confirm it. thank for your linksA ntv (talk) 18:09, 29 August 2011 (UTC)[reply]
You've obviously been doing a lot of work recently!
You may be interested to read this brief account of Shahbaddin's patriarchate given by Abbeloos and Lamy in an appendix to their Latin translation of the Ecclesiastical Chronicle of Bar Hebraeus (Volume I, page 849). In general it seems to agree with the facts as given by you, but I note that he is described as archbishop, not bishop, of Jerusalem before he became patriarch:
Ignatius Peter Gregory, originally archbishop of Jerusalem, was a relative of the Jacobite patriarch Abd al-Masih, and was elected by the Catholics to replace Andrew Akijan in 1678. In the same year he created two orthodox bishops, Gregory Isho for Jerusalem and Dionysius Rizqallah for Aleppo. In the following year he was confirmed as patriarch by the Roman pontiff, and appointed Basil Isaac maphrian of the East. He died in prison in Adana, on 4 March 1701.
The English translation from the original Latin is mine. I can easily let you have the Latin version if you need it.
Hi A ntv, I just thought I'd let you know that I saw your article Dionysius (bishop of Milan) in the New Articles list-- The image greatly improves the article.However, I think the article seems to contain a few errors: the article contains grammatical errors. It would be great if you could also upload a picture for the related article Synod of Milan.
I'm kind of new here myself but let me know if there is any way I can help. Thanks, Amy Z (talk) 17:54, 20 October 2011 (UTC)[reply]
Thank you for your message and for your scholar interest for Wikipedia. I'm not a English mother tongue so sometime I make errors in my articles, but usually in a few days some kind users fix them by copy-editing the article (you too, if you wish, can copyedit article Dionysius (bishop of Milan)). I've added an image about the 355 synod of Milan, but it is not a good picture. Possibly Saturday I'll go downtown with my camera.
Thank again for you interest on WP.A ntv (talk) 19:40, 20 October 2011 (UTC)[reply]
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New Page Triage engagement strategy released[edit]
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I moved the Bahá'í Faith into New religions as it seems the more logical category to me. It may have Abrahamic roots but as it developed in the 19th century it is surely "new"? Alternatively, as it originated in Iran, maybe that's a better location? Either way, grouping it with the old established Abrahamic religions doesn't look right. Vacarme (talk) 13:06, 6 July 2012 (UTC)[reply]
Thanks for doing the DYK review of concealed shoes. I feel like I ought to do one myself in return, but there seem to be so many hidden rules to understand ... George Ponderevo (talk) 09:04, 31 October 2012 (UTC)[reply]
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People of Levantine-Greek Orthodox Christian descent[edit]
Dear A ntv,
Since you seem to be a rational soul and know about the « Byzantine » (no pun intended!) subtleties of 'old European' cultural categorization and Church(es) history, I’m writing to draw your attention to the fact that some reckless Wiki-Boeotians want to delete the “People of Levantine-Greek Orthodox Christian descent” and the “American of Levantine-Greek Orthodox Christian descent” categories!
what is the "Ukraina Commonweath"?!?! Polotsk was part of Great Lithuanian Duchy, that was a part of Polish-Lithuanian Commonwealth (Rzecz Pospolita). Polotsk is in Belarus not Ukraine, Anton Sielava was a Belarussian nobleman, not ucranian. And of course he have nothing to do with "Ukrainian Greek Catholic Church" because UGCC appeared in 1839 after abolition of Greek Catholic Church in territory of Russian Empire. Contemporary UGCC is rests of Uniate Church of Rzecz Pospolita, that remained because the part of territory of West Ukrania was located in Austrian Empire. To call the Uniate Church of Anton Sielava's times is anachronism and incorrect because the majority of its members were Belarussians, not Ucranians. 188.123.231.30 (talk) 14:42, 8 January 2013 (UTC)[reply]
Greetings: I see you have removed category Italian music from Gian Battista Casella? What was the rationale? That none of his works is extant? Signed: Basemetal (write to me here) 21:52, 27 January 2013 (UTC)[reply]
Hi, Italian music is not necessary as cat because its sub-categories as Italian Composers and Italian musicians are already present. See WP:SUBCAT. A ntv (talk) 22:07, 27 January 2013 (UTC)[reply]
I'd respectfully say that I dont think mentioning Chaldeans as being Assyrians is Nationalism, any more than saying Sikhs are Indians is Nationalism. Maybe Chaldo-Assyrian is a better term, but all are the same people and theyre a distinct ethno-linguistic and ethno-religious group from Iraq. Most Chaldeans accept Assyrian as ethnically right, including Archbishop Raphael Bidawid.
Those labels like Chaldeans and Nestorians are misnomers in an ethnic sense, attached to Assyrians by Europeans. Those people were known as Assyrians by all their neighbors and as well, by themselves. As for Syriacs, it isnt an ethnic label, there arent such a race as Syriacs, its just a kind of catch-all to describe any christian from the Mid East. Originally though, Syriac meant the same thing as Assyrian, and it derives from Assyrian. Hard to see how Chaldeans can be anything other than Assyrians, I mean, they are from Northern Iraq which was Assyria, their church was called the church of Assyria to start with, and of Mosul....both those places are in the north where the Assyrians live. Also, the church was renamed as Chaldean by the Italians to mark it out from the Assyrian Eastern Church, meaning the Assyrian Church and Assyrian Identity were already there. — Preceding unsigned comment added by 92.26.19.250 (talk) 11:51, 2 May 2013 (UTC)[reply]
Christianity newsletter: New format, new focus[edit]
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