User talk:Aigest/Archive 4

This is an archive of past discussions. Do not edit the contents of this page. If you wish to start a new discussion or revive an old one, please do so on the current talk page.

Archive 1

Archive 2

Archive 3

Archive 4

Archive 5

Archive 6

Albanian nationalism

I appreciate your attempts to contribute helpfully on the contentious Albanian nationalism article. I've posted some questions on Visar arifaj's talk page which I would appreciate your comments on as I try to work through understanding some of these complex issues. Appreciatively, Askari Mark (Talk) 03:37, 10 September 2009 (UTC)

Thank you for your comments, Aigest. Since you have copied my questions and your responses to the article's talk page, I will address further questions there. Askari Mark (Talk) 01:34, 11 September 2009 (UTC)

Do you think that Albanian nationalism has WP:TE, WP:SYNTH and WP:Vandalism? —AnnaFabiano (talk) 19:39, 10 September 2009 (UTC)

I think that Megistias and some other Greek editors are really pushing POV. Do you have any idea how we could report them for this? They are ruining encyclopedic information. —Anna Comnena (talk) 11:54, 15 September 2009 (UTC)

Please be calm. It seems certain that there was a degree of Illyrian-Albanian continuity as per directions from E. Hoxja, mainly due to political reasons. I thought your objections r about post-communist Albania.Alexikoua (talk) 13:42, 15 September 2009 (UTC)

I changed your version to 'partially adopted' (since we had a strong Illyrian-Albanian link official state directive). What do you suggest?Alexikoua (talk) 07:37, 16 September 2009 (UTC)

The Dacian-Thracian possible connection was rejected. I see there was a strict policy to follow the Illyrian link: the forcefull change of islamic-christian names to 'Illyrian' ones is considered part of this policy.Alexikoua (talk) 08:36, 16 September 2009 (UTC)

For sure we have a stronger support of the Illyria hypothesis, official name policy is a clear clue (Illyrian name policy was common only during E. Hodja for example).Alexikoua (talk) 10:25, 16 September 2009 (UTC)

What do you mean, it rejected tottaly that ideology? A massive forcefull change of names indicates the opposite. There was a official direction in order to support that link.Alexikoua (talk) 11:03, 16 September 2009 (UTC)

Nationalism doesn't only mean irredentism against neighboring countries and regions you know that. It also means persecution of minorities and policies to strenthen semi-pseudohistorical links. That's why I wrote 'partly adopted'. Since you and Megistias have made several reverts the last hours I kindly ask you to change the sentence into that (left aside ->partially adopted), until a consensus is reached.Alexikoua (talk) 14:58, 16 September 2009 (UTC)

Megistias RfC has been raised by me. If you think this is unjust or have anything to add, you are welcome. Thanks! —Anna Comnena (talk) 00:02, 21 September 2009 (UTC)

References that you found for the 1481 uprising

Hello Aigest. At the the Himara talk page you listed some appropriate references, in the section "1481 uprising under Scanderbeg's son." I Pakapshem would like to add a paragraph to the article that talks about the role of Himara in the Albanian revolt against the Turks, and he is hoping to rely on the references that you found. This issue has been discussed over at User talk:EdJohnston#Himara. Maybe you can take a look at that discussion and see if you have anything to add. Have you actually been able to get hold of the books that you listed? The Google Books preview is so scanty it is hard to know what the books actually say about Himara. If you have seen the books, you might be able to give us more information. Thanks for any help you can provide. EdJohnston (talk) 18:24, 16 September 2009 (UTC)

Thanks for the comment you left at User talk:EdJohnston#Himara. I have replied there. EdJohnston (talk) 15:49, 17 September 2009 (UTC)

September 2009

You currently appear to be engaged in an edit war according to the reverts you have made on Origin of the Albanians. Note that the three-revert rule prohibits making more than three reversions on a single page within a 24 hour period. Additionally, users who perform several reversions in content disputes may be blocked for edit warring even if they do not technically violate the three-revert rule. When in dispute with another editor you should first try to discuss controversial changes to work towards wording and content that gains a consensus among editors. Should that prove unsuccessful, you are encouraged to seek dispute resolution, and in some cases it may be appropriate to request page protection. Please stop the disruption, otherwise you may be blocked from editing. You have been reported at the 3RR noticeboard for your repeated reversions here. Discuss on talk, not in edit summaries. SarekOfVulcan (talk) 17:23, 17 September 2009 (UTC)

Illyrian identity

Hi. Some interesting discussion have been occurring in Illyrians talk page. Hxseek (talk) 10:57, 23 September 2009 (UTC)

Thanks for that article. It was quite interesting Hxseek (talk) 08:26, 28 September 2009 (UTC)

Souliotes

The massive revert of content can be considered vandalism, since you reverted (twice) not only the lead but sourced paragraphs of the history section, in wich you didn't give an explanation.Alexikoua (talk) 09:07, 28 September 2009 (UTC)

Souliotes

Please, watch Souliotes. Guildenrich (talk) 16:46, 7 November 2009 (UTC)

Albanian language

Thanks for the great info on Albanian vowels and the link. I did not add the original table of PIE to Albanian sound correspondences (such as the vowel section) so I am sure there may be some errors there. Vowels are always the trickiest anyway, eh? hehe I will have to take a look over the sources, etc. I have mostly added material for the consonants, such as PIE consonant clusters and their outcomes in Albanian or some dialect material which is relevant. Azalea pomp (talk) 18:42, 3 March 2010 (UTC)

Suliotes

Please I need your opinion on Talk:Souliotes proposed move. Argumento pak të lutem, Balkanian`s word (talk) 08:26, 4 March 2010 (UTC)

Albania TF

I still cherish this message of yours (see here). You might be interested in this discussion. Best! --sulmues (talk) 15:46, 15 March 2010 (UTC)

Sources

I saw that you are adding sources to the Taskforce Albania, so I send you and email with some sources I have so you can check them.--— ZjarriRrethues — ^talk 13:47, 17 March 2010 (UTC)

The origins article

Hi Aigest. Your posting on my talk page makes me think you might be taking the wrong approach. On the internet it is always very hard to work out what people really intend, so when you are trying to get a job done it is best to forget that question and look at what people actually do. In other words, if the other person is not actually inserting original research or openly proposing to, then there is no point discussing whether that is what they really want to do. My proposal is that you try to work out what all editors can accept and then go with whatever intersects that set of limts. That will be where you end up eventually anyway?--Andrew Lancaster (talk) 23:24, 17 March 2010 (UTC)

I know how frustrating it can be, but in this particular case I see no sign of irreconcilable differences. I think a reasonable compromise is possible, and personally I think Hxseek's idea of trying to restructure it is maybe a good way to make sure the article does not cross any red lines for anyone?--Andrew Lancaster (talk) 08:44, 18 March 2010 (UTC)

Lahuta e Malcis

I started a discussion here [1]. Take a look when you have enough free time.--— ZjarriRrethues — ^talk 15:37, 20 March 2010 (UTC)

Albania change to Wikiproject

You might want to see this discussion that I started and give your opinion. Thank you for your contributions to the Albania Wikiproject! --sulmues talk contributions 11:48, 4 April 2010 (UTC)

"One side is not interested in dancing"

Are you serious with this? If he didn't try to provoke as much as possible on Molossians, Thesprotians, Pyrrhus of Epirus and Pyrros Dimas (and lots of others), he wouldn't be having all these problems. Athenean (talk) 16:51, 5 April 2010 (UTC)

Transferred your name as active member of the Albania TF

As discussed, since Wikipedia:WikiProject Europe/Albania/Participants will be replaced by Wikipedia:WikiProject Albania/Members I deleted your name from the former. It's now in the latter. Best! --Sulmues _talk 20:06, 9 April 2010 (UTC)

Oh something else: could you please give some thoughts as to what layout would be best for the Albania TF? I have seen many country Wikiproject pages and each one is different, but it's worth putting together some templates. Vinie, Zjarri, Kedadi, you and I are the most active as of now, so to us the burden. --Sulmues _talk 20:06, 9 April 2010 (UTC)

We agree that they were Thracians. What's the meaning of your controversial edit?Alexikoua (talk) 10:56, 27 April 2010 (UTC)

Notification

I mentioned your name in a proposal I made at WP:AE, in the thread about Kedadi [2]. Fut.Perf. ☼ 14:38, 29 April 2010 (UTC)

Sanctions

Further to this arbitration enforcement request and by the power vested in me under Wikipedia:ARBMAC#Discretionary_sanctions, you are hereby placed on a reverting restriction on all Balkans-related articles in the following terms:

You may make no more than one revert per rolling 24-hour period on these articles
If you do make a revert on such an article, you must post an explanation of why you have made the revert, to be at least 50 words and in English, to the talk page of the article, within 30 minutes of posting.
"Balkans-related" is to be construed widely. If you are not certain whether a certain article is Balkans-related, assume that it is.

This restriction applies until the end of June. You may appeal the restriction to me, to WP:ANI, or to the Arbitration Committee. Stifle (talk) 10:54, 2 May 2010 (UTC)

Wikipedia:Albanian and Greek wikipedians cooperation board

You are invited to participate in this board, which I just created. Please feel free to bring there your concerns. Cheers! --_Sulmues^{Let's talk} 01:07, 3 May 2010 (UTC)

Restriction

As I explained my position here on kedadi talk [3] and on FutPer talk page [4] I don't see myself in tag teaming with quick reverts along with other guys. Just please have a look at my contributions and you will notice that I was very careful in following rules, I always tried to talk in talk pages before making changes to the articles. I find FutPer accusation of "tag teaming with quick rv"unbased in my case and your last decision accordingly so. Please consider once again my case Aigest (talk) 22:39, 2 May 2010 (UTC)

The recent history of Dardani tends to suggest otherwise. Stifle (talk) 10:23, 3 May 2010 (UTC)

My position on Dardani article was well explained by FutPer here [5]. After contributing mainly to the history section of the article [6] my first rv was here [7] and my second intervention was only after I got the OK from Alexikoua see [8] and my next step [9] my action being also confirmed and congratulated by Alexikoua [10]. Noticing that the same misused reference was spreading to other articles look Peresadyes for eg, I requested the help of an administrator [11] trying to prevent an edit war adn I also brought the sources on that talk page and I didn't make a single intervention before hearing other guys opinion [12]. Seeing the proposal of FutPer for punishment I also asked him where did he saw my tag teaming with other guys [13] but he didn't respond. So in the end could you please tell me where is my bad behavior (tag teaming with quick rv,?! I don't think so) and why I deserve such a punishment?! Aigest (talk) 10:49, 3 May 2010 (UTC)

There's no requirement that you have been involved in "tag teaming with quick rv" in order to be subject to discretionary sanctions. Only that you have failed to "adhere to the purpose of Wikipedia, the expected standards of behavior, or the normal editorial process". You got involved in a revert war, which is failure to adhere to the normal editorial process.

Therefore, I am not in a position to amend the revert limitation against you. You have the right of appeal to Wikipedia:Administrators' noticeboard/Incidents and/or to Wikipedia:Arbitration/Requests/Amendment. Stifle (talk) 11:21, 3 May 2010 (UTC)

Happy of not being tag teaming the reason for my punishment could you please specify which action of mine is "against the expected standards of behavior, or the normal editorial process". I still don't understand, since I have explained to you that I made only one rv, talked with the other guy agreed with him and also notified an administrator about the specific problem. Which one of these could possibly be "against the expected standards of behavior, or the normal editorial process"? Aigest (talk) 11:52, 3 May 2010 (UTC)

You were involved in a multi-sided revert war on Dardani starting on the 26th of April. Stifle (talk) 12:00, 3 May 2010 (UTC)

I feel like Aigest was the sacrifical lamb in this process, because his revert was very well founded. For that matter I hadn't broken any rule either, but I endorsed FPS proposal because I felt like we should stop the wars. So if it matters, I apologize to Aigest for having endorsed FPS's proposal because it probably hurt him, but I just believed that it is best not to have other Albanians blocked/banned. We need new contributors and a fresh start. Sorry again and please don't hold and grudges, :-). --_Sulmues^{Let's talk} 13:35, 11 May 2010 (UTC)

Hajt dhe nje tjeter, qe te na kthehesh

		Your Opinion is More Important than You Think Barnstar
		For the many improvements to the articles that you have made, I never tire of giving you barnstars, which is the minimum that I can do after what I learn from your contributions. _Sulmues^{Let's talk} 01:38, 15 June 2010 (UTC)

I know

I was following you. --_Sulmues^{Let's talk} 22:17, 17 June 2010 (UTC)

Mund te kontribuoj me shume prej tyre pasi kam Historine e Popullit Shqiptar 2002 (tertiary source) ne pdf. Downloaded from the scribd that Zjarri brought. But let's have a game plan: Can you draft a list of articles and we can work on them together? You use Noli I use Historia e Popullit Shqiptar? --_Sulmues^{Let's talk} 22:22, 17 June 2010 (UTC)

It'll be Nobility of Albania, consistent with other similar articles in Wikipedia. Send me an email, see top of my talk page. --_Sulmues^{Let's talk} 22:30, 17 June 2010 (UTC) Ata artikuj do ndihmojne shume pasi te njejtat referenca do perdorim per Pashalliqet shqiptare. --_Sulmues^{Let's talk} 22:40, 17 June 2010 (UTC) Nuk e kam lexuar Pellumbin dhe nuk e gjej online. --_Sulmues^{Let's talk} 22:57, 17 June 2010 (UTC) Lexo emailin qe te dergova. --_Sulmues^{Let's talk} 23:00, 17 June 2010 (UTC) Oh, ti flet per Masakren e Bejve te Manastirit, qe Kadareja e pershkroi te "Komisioni i Festes"? --_Sulmues^{Let's talk} 23:02, 17 June 2010 (UTC) Nuk e kisha menduar. Nje masaker e Barthelemiut qe coi ne vonesen e pavaresise. Ajo masaker duhet te ngelet ne historine e popullit shqiptar. Eshte e cuditcme qe ne Manastir kane ndodhur dy ngjarje shume te rendesishme (nje e keqe nje e mire). --_Sulmues^{Let's talk} 23:21, 17 June 2010 (UTC)

Proposed to DYK

It's a very good article, and you'll get some help from great Wikipedians. Template_talk:Did_you_know#Monastir_massacre_of_1830. Hope you don't mind. I'll also work on the article. --_Sulmues^{Let's talk} 14:16, 30 June 2010 (UTC)

You can mention its relevance in litterature by referring to Komisioni i Festes novel of Ismail Kadare. --_Sulmues^{Let's talk} 14:29, 30 June 2010 (UTC)

One other thing: Can you please provide the page in Vickers where you see the reference? And possibly provide inline citation? The hook should be verifiable in English for a DYK. --_Sulmues^{Let's talk} 15:09, 30 June 2010 (UTC)

ahem, can you move it to Massacre of the Albanian beys? The reasons are multiple.

No dirtying the name of the city of Manastir,
No need to have a year, because the Albanian beys were massacred only once.
No descriptive title needed because in history this is already known as the Massacre of the Albanian beys, see p167 of Henry Fanshawe.

What do you think? --_Sulmues^{Let's talk} 19:29, 30 June 2010 (UTC)

Moved. The old title will of course redirect. It just looks better and we have Albanians in the title. Changed the hook to represent "Beys and their forces". Indeed the hook is mostly about the "treacherously killing" --_Sulmues^{Let's talk} 20:27, 1 July 2010 (UTC)

The links were messed up by an IP editor who made sure to point to the "Kopertina" of the book, and now they don't point directly to the page. You should probably revert them. [14] I didn't because I thought probably you'd like them. Now let's see if we can call the beys noblety. It seems like they are the equivalent of the Western duke. If you want to work together, send me sources and I'll do translations. --_Sulmues^{Let's talk} 20:43, 1 July 2010 (UTC)

For Noblety of Albania: It'll be in four parts: pre-Ottoman, Ottoman (see Ottoman_titles), William, Prince of Albania, and Zog of Albania. The Ottoman part will be probably the largest. --_Sulmues^{Let's talk} 21:32, 1 July 2010 (UTC)

Zylyftari: Ought to be another DYK. Paska edhe nje bust ne Louvre sipas enciklopedise shqiptare--_Sulmues^{Let's talk} 03:10, 2 July 2010 (UTC)

DYK for Monastir massacre of 1830

On July 7, 2010, Did you know? was updated with a fact from the article Monastir massacre of 1830, which you created or substantially expanded. You are welcome to check how many hits the article got while on the front page (here's how, quick check ) and add it to DYKSTATS if it got over 5,000. If you know of another interesting fact from a recently created article, then please suggest it on the Did you know? talk page.

— Rlevse • Talk • 06:03, 7 July 2010 (UTC)

Talkback

Hello, Aigest. You have new messages at Sulmues's talk page.
You can remove this notice at any time by removing the {{Talkback}} or {{Tb}} template.

--Sulmues ^(talk) 23:59, 15 July 2010 (UTC)

Talkback at WP Albania

Hello, Aigest. You have new messages at Wikipedia_talk:WikiProject_Albania#Project.
You can remove this notice at any time by removing the {{Talkback}} or {{Tb}} template.

--Sulmues ^(talk) 15:07, 22 July 2010 (UTC)

WW2

invasion of Albania Aigest (talk) 14:59, 5 August 2010 (UTC)

Safet Butka

Please give one reference per paragraph at least. Le te jete e njejta se i rregulloj une. --Sulmues ^(talk) 14:37, 30 August 2010 (UTC)

co-nommed to DYK. Good work. I'll work a little bit more on it on the references. --Sulmues ^(talk) 14:50, 30 August 2010 (UTC)

Done. Please see Article and also hook in DYK, and let me know if you agree with the changes. Thanks for the nice article. --Sulmues ^(talk) 17:27, 30 August 2010 (UTC)

All yours. Vetem filloji gjerat se pastaj i zbukuroj vete. Safeti eshte C-status, po me pak mund cohet ne B e pastaj ne GA. --Sulmues ^(talk) 18:51, 30 August 2010 (UTC)

genetics article

Hi Aigest. Not sure I'll find time to look at it and unfortunately I did not read it before either. Someone who writes a lot about Balkans genetics is Dienekes. See http://dienekes.blogspot.com/2010/03/y-chromosomes-of-albanian-populations.html Does that help? I think the article was also discussed on the haplozone forum at http://community.haplozone.net/ --Andrew Lancaster (talk) 15:28, 24 August 2010 (UTC)

I think a good person to talk to about this would be Steven Bird, who frequents the above-mentioned haplozone forum. He is a keen watcher of E1b1b in the Balkans because it is important to his theory published in JOGG that E1b1b people with British ancestry may have come there during Roman times. But one thing I do suggest is that you work out what your question is! :) --Andrew Lancaster (talk) 08:19, 25 August 2010 (UTC)

I think you're right that Steven Bird and I probably differ on our guesses about where V13 might have originated. But I think people misunderstand just how much of a guess this has to be and how little that science can really say about that precise question. What science can discuss so far most accurately is where V13 might have dispersed from, but even this is only in very rough terms. You might have seen me say that V13 as a mutation might have happened anywhere at all between about Sudan and the Alps, and this expresses a bit how I feel about that particular question. Concerning how it E-V13 male lines of today spread ancestrally (including back into times before the mutation happened) there is not much disagreement. Most or all modern E-V13 dispersed from the Balkans, and if you go further back it has ancestry in the Middle East, and if you go further back it has ancestry in Egypt and then further south in turn as you go further back in time. But you are talking about a long period of time. Just to say it again though, it is very hard to say anything about where mutations actually happened, even though people always like making guesses. Does that help?--Andrew Lancaster (talk) 14:55, 27 August 2010 (UTC)

Basic answer is yes. But 1) you do not really mean the Druze do you, but ancestors of the right? 2) the % of V13 men in a place is not what you should look at to know where they dispersed from. You need to look at some measure of their genetic diversity. This is because male lines can disappear or become very common over time.--Andrew Lancaster (talk) 17:39, 27 August 2010 (UTC)

Ah yes I forgot your interest is likely to be speculations on exactly where in the Balkans E-V13 came from. Steve has his theories, but my position on that has been that I think it will be very difficult to ever be that accurate. People in the Balkans have been moved around a lot over the millennia.--Andrew Lancaster (talk) 08:19, 28 August 2010 (UTC)

All the candidate areas are relatively close aren't they?--Andrew Lancaster (talk) 08:27, 28 August 2010 (UTC)

That sentence is not fitting in my brain this morning. Can you reword your question? What do you mean by the map and the radius in this case?--Andrew Lancaster (talk) 08:43, 28 August 2010 (UTC)

That sounds about right, but I wanted to also mention another reason speculation can be inaccurate, which is that when the radius is so small that it is inside the Balkans, and the time is quite far back, then even if you found one very definite area, let's say one valley, you'd still have to wonder whether the people now in that valley always lived in that valley. The Balkans was pushed around a lot in history. Not only the Turks but also the Romans and Byzantines used to move whole villages of people.--Andrew Lancaster (talk) 09:28, 28 August 2010 (UTC)

For the problem I am talking about you'd only have to move the villages who contain the most diverse and therefore presumably most old E-V13 haplotypes.--Andrew Lancaster (talk) 10:05, 28 August 2010 (UTC)

Not sure exactly what you mean but if you are saying this problem scenario of mine would leave scatterings of E-V13 all over the Balkans, firstly that is not necessarily true as male lines die out often, and secondly, isn't that exactly what we see?--Andrew Lancaster (talk) 10:32, 28 August 2010 (UTC)

I do not see where I used the word spread but I can think of two meanings: 1. Geography: E-V13 is spread all over Europe and the Mediterranean, but mostly the Balkans and Italy 2. STR diversity, which is used to estimate age. That is what Steve has been trying to get more accurate information about. In the past the big publications on this were Cruciani et al's and the one article by Battaglia et al. Within Europe the biggest diversity seems to be in the Balkans somewhere. But then there is this question of the high diversity but small amounts of E-V13 found in the Middle East, for example amongst a small number of E-V13 men.--Andrew Lancaster (talk) 11:55, 28 August 2010 (UTC)

It could have originated in Thessaly. Why not? Just because the levels are low there in some samples today? You have to remember how easily that a Y line can become extinct or dominant for no special reason. You also have to keep reminding yourself you are only talking about Y lines, not populations as a whole. An dispersion of a Y line can be a lot different from a migration. For all these types of reason I personally find it hard to read much into the differences between two small neighboring sub-populations within the Balkans. It could just be chance. But Steve is the better person to ask for more speculation about it.--Andrew Lancaster (talk) 13:09, 28 August 2010 (UTC)

BTW you also mentioned I2a. Ken Nordtvedt is looking into that and looking for Albanians: http://archiver.rootsweb.ancestry.com/th/read/GENEALOGY-DNA/2010-08/1282926993. --Andrew Lancaster (talk) 13:33, 28 August 2010 (UTC)

Qemal & Gani

Qemal Butka eshte notable si "mayor". Ganiun nuk e njoh, keshtu qe mund te jete problem notability. --Sulmues ^(talk) 19:06, 30 August 2010 (UTC)

Neser behet edhe Qemali DYK. Promised. --Sulmues ^(talk) 19:40, 30 August 2010 (UTC)

Can you just reference the first paragraph of Abaz Kupi? --Sulmues ^(talk) 15:32, 31 August 2010 (UTC)

Qemal Butka is done and in DYK now. --Sulmues ^(talk) 16:52, 31 August 2010 (UTC)

Kupi nuk me pelqen shume do nje cike ustallik, po definitively has to go to DYK. --Sulmues ^(talk) 17:21, 31 August 2010 (UTC)

Ok, futi referencat aty ku kam thene cn dhe do e coj ne DYK. Excellent job! --Sulmues ^(talk) 13:52, 1 September 2010 (UTC)

Futa nje verification needed: Numri i faqes qe fute eshte me i larte se numri i faqes se fundit. Gjithashtu per "Undercover, the men and women of the Special Operations Executive Author Patrick Howarth" ti ke future botimin e 1980s. Je i sigurt qe s'po sheh botimin e 1990s, i cili eshte online? --Sulmues ^(talk) 14:27, 1 September 2010 (UTC)

Ops, me fal. I rregulloj une te gjitha. Gabimi im. --Sulmues ^(talk) 14:32, 1 September 2010 (UTC)

Per foton e Mujos pyet Dr. Blofeld ose Kedadin. Do te te ndihmojne. Une nuk dua te rrezikoj, pasi krijohen probleme te pabesueshme me to. --Sulmues ^(talk) 14:47, 1 September 2010 (UTC)

Coje vete Abazin ne DYK se u bere specialist tani. --Sulmues ^(talk) 14:53, 1 September 2010 (UTC)

Actually, never mind, I'll bring him there. Don't worry, just expand Mujo. --Sulmues ^(talk) 15:02, 1 September 2010 (UTC)

Kam vene re qe ti s'perdor fare "citeweb" templates. Mund te duken te bezdisshme po ne fakt jane shume te kollajta. Une dikur i beja me dore pasi si hajvan qe jam nuk kisha pare qe edhe Mozilla edhe Internet Explorer kishin nje buton qe thote "cite". Mozilla e ka djathtas, IE e ka majtas, dhe te dy hapin nje si dritare ku mund te fusesh informacionin. Pastaj click "add citation" dhe ne fund "save". E jep citimin shume elegant. Konsideroje per te ardhmen te lutem. --Sulmues ^(talk) 16:00, 2 September 2010 (UTC)

Degjo, po e pate librin e Mojkomit per Mujon shkruaj nje cike me shume per te. Mojkomi nuk lodhet kot qe te beje 200 faqe (edhe pse e kishte bere para 30 vjetesh). Gjithashtu duhet te bejme nje artikull per Vojo Kushin: edhe per ate eshte botuar nje monografi ne vitet 1980. --Sulmues ^(talk) 16:01, 2 September 2010 (UTC)

Jo nuk e kisha lexuar dhe ne pergjithesi dua t'i evitoj camet pasi nuk jam shume i pergatitur. BW dhe Z jane specialistet, po do mundohem te ndihmoj. Fakti eshte qe jam teper injorant ne fushen e luftes se dyte ne pergjithesi, pasi mendoj qe tmerri i vertete ne WP do vije aty: ne fakt grindjet me greket s'jane gje hic ne krahasim me grindjet mes shqiptareve (komuniste vs zogiste). --Sulmues ^(talk) 18:36, 2 September 2010 (UTC)

Arvanites

This is the GHM source [15]. Read the last sentence of the first paragraph. What does it say? The intellectually honest thing would be to revert yourself. Thank you. Athenean (talk) 15:19, 2 September 2010 (UTC)

Does it or does it not say they use the term Shqiptar (the same used by Albanians of Albania), a term strongly disliked by the other Arvanites, who also resent being called Albanians. Yes or no? Athenean (talk) 16:15, 2 September 2010 (UTC)

Athenean are you an Arvanite from Athens? --Sulmues ^(talk) 05:14, 4 September 2010 (UTC)

Tungjajete

Please, since this is the en.wiki, try to speak English here; or (ok, ok) create an "al.wiki". Falemnderit! HJJHolm (talk) 15:14, 5 September 2010 (UTC)

If you want to address me in any language I know, I will respond you in that language. If you are not happy with it, you can stay out of my talk page. Aigest (talk) 07:59, 6 September 2010 (UTC)

Self banned

I'll make a couple of edits here and there mainly to close on the DYKs that are still to be approved, but in general I'm going to hold off from Balkan related topics for some time. It's not picking my interest any more: I don't have the excitment of one year ago. You, on the other hand, have done an excellent job and can self nominate to DYK and also work on the refs and wikification: by now you have plenty of experience and are an expert in the area. --Sulmues ^(talk) 16:00, 7 September 2010 (UTC)

You should really do the nomination for Albanian Revolt of 1847. That should go to DYK, but please provide some inline citations and then I'll put them to citeweb templates: tomorrow (September 12) is the last day possible for a nomination. Most of these DYKs are going to have GA status one day. --Sulmues ^(talk) 23:59, 11 September 2010 (UTC)

		The Citation Barnstar
		For the many inline references that you have provided, which make other people's contributions stand out for future checks. My personal thank you! Sulmues ^(talk) 01:13, 12 September 2010 (UTC)

DYK for Safet Butka

On 11 September 2010, Did you know? was updated with a fact from the article Safet Butka, which you created or substantially expanded. You are welcome to check how many hits the article got while on the front page (here's how, quick check ) and add it to DYKSTATS if it got over 5,000. If you know of another interesting fact from a recently created article, then please suggest it on the Did you know? talk page.

Materialscientist (talk) 07:18, 11 September 2010 (UTC)

Sure, to you I will listen because like Sulmues you are a damn good editor with good potential and you are neutral. You both see all sides not like the Greco-Serb block acting together. Prince of Kosova (talk) 12:31, 11 September 2010 (UTC)

	The Albanian Barnstar of Neutrality and Fine Editting
	For your works for telling the truth to brainwahsed Greco-Serbs
	_{this WikiAward was given to Aigest by Prince of Kosova (talk) 12:35, 11 September 2010 (UTC)}

DYK for Abaz Kupi

On 12 September 2010, Did you know? was updated with a fact from the article Abaz Kupi, which you created or substantially expanded. You are welcome to check how many hits the article got while on the front page (here's how, quick check ) and add it to DYKSTATS if it got over 5,000. If you know of another interesting fact from a recently created article, then please suggest it on the Did you know? talk page.

— Rlevse • Talk • 06:02, 12 September 2010 (UTC)

DYK for Qemal Butka

On 12 September 2010, Did you know? was updated with a fact from the article Qemal Butka, which you created or substantially expanded. You are welcome to check how many hits the article got while on the front page (here's how, quick check ) and add it to DYKSTATS if it got over 5,000. If you know of another interesting fact from a recently created article, then please suggest it on the Did you know? talk page.

TheDYKUpdateBot 12:04, 12 September 2010 (UTC)

...And you're at 3. Well done! The Albanian Revolt of 1847 can still be a great DYK if you give some inline sources... --Sulmues ^(talk) 05:39, 13 September 2010 (UTC)

Arvanites

I like your edit. Good job. Athenean (talk) 12:37, 15 September 2010 (UTC)

1844 or 1843-44?

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--Sulmues ^(talk) 02:02, 21 September 2010 (UTC)

E cova Anastasin ne DYK

Coje nje cike ate punen tende per revolten 1833-1839 ne DYK se eshte gjynah. DYK ngelet ne historine e Wikipedias.--Sulmues ^(talk) 23:06, 25 September 2010 (UTC)

DYK for Albanian Revolt of 1844

On 28 September 2010, Did you know? was updated with a fact from the article Albanian Revolt of 1844, which you created or substantially expanded. You are welcome to check how many hits the article got while on the front page (here's how, quick check ) and add it to DYKSTATS if it got over 5,000. If you know of another interesting fact from a recently created article, then please suggest it on the Did you know? talk page.

— Rlevse • Talk • 00:06, 28 September 2010 (UTC)

DYK for Anastas Byku

On 5 October 2010, Did you know? was updated with a fact from the article Anastas Byku, which you created or substantially expanded. You are welcome to check how many hits the article got while on the front page (here's how, quick check ) and add it to DYKSTATS if it got over 5,000. If you know of another interesting fact from a recently created article, then please suggest it on the Did you know? talk page.

The DYK project (nominate) 00:04, 5 October 2010 (UTC)

Thanks so much!

Cheers!--Andrew Lancaster (talk) 08:20, 9 October 2010 (UTC)

First

Second. Feel free to move it back. I really don't remember much from my history lessons. --Sulmues ^(talk) 13:11, 12 October 2010 (UTC)

Epo i bie qe ai qe cuam ne GA ishte i treti atehere. 1443, 1448 and 1449 (GA). --Sulmues ^(talk) 13:23, 12 October 2010 (UTC)

E di: disa here 1448 disa here 1449. Ka konfuzion. Avash avash do i zgjidhim. Nderkaq qe ti ke Frasherin ai duhet t'i shkoklaviti gjerat. --Sulmues ^(talk) 13:28, 12 October 2010 (UTC)

E kur bojn vaki Venediku me Oranikun? --Sulmues ^(talk) 13:47, 12 October 2010 (UTC)

1447-1448 dakord po atehere duhet te jene ne veren e 1447. Pune muti. Duhet me u von gjith dakord. Bring the discussion in my page only, so that Gaius can follow up with it. --Sulmues ^(talk) 14:34, 12 October 2010 (UTC)

Shif

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--Sulmues ^(talk) 13:54, 13 October 2010 (UTC)

Y genetic data support the Neolithic demic diffusion model

You should be cautious of this type of article it is from the first years when people were first playing around with this stuff. I would say that what it basically found is that populations closer to the Middle East are more genetically close to Middle eastern populations if you compare to populations further away. Everything is based on very crude assumptions, which were maybe more acceptable a few year ago than they are today. The most important assumption they make is that any haplogroup which seems to have come from the Middle East to the Balkans must have done so during the Neolithic. In reality, even though this is reasonable it is not certain. It is obviously true that many academics do love the idea, and these early papers almost treated it as obvious, but this is not a consensus. I'd say there were a lot of different waves of early farmers, right into the Bronze Age and maybe even the Iron Age?--Andrew Lancaster (talk) 11:21, 15 October 2010 (UTC)

Concerning your two posts:

1. Yes, but there is simply so little written about post Neolithic movements. The Neolithic was the big fashion for the first years of population genetics.

2. I'd say that any population genetics, the basic thing you would expect is that populations who live near each other will look more genetically related. So that Greeks, Albanians (and other Mediterranean Balkan populations?) and Southern Italians look related is not surprising at all. What is more surprising are cases where neighbor populations seem different.--Andrew Lancaster (talk) 12:14, 15 October 2010 (UTC)

Hmm. I'd say we do not have evidence to make a decision on the choices you mention or any others, especially not with Y DNA. What we can say is that more generally European Y DNA (but not so much other DNA) looks like a sub-set of Middle Eastern DNA which arrived after the ice age, and probably (in my opinion at least) after the first farmers. (An easier to source statement would be that the earliest of the major Y haplogroups probably came with the first farmers, or maybe a little before.) The possible exception might be the I haplogroups. By the way what you mean by autochtonous specifically in this context? Maybe this helps: if European Y DNA came from the Middle East via the Balkans, then no matter what period or periods this happened in we would expect some lineages to have only made it as far as the Balkans, and others to have gone further and become more dominant in the further away lands. That is exactly the pattern I think we see. E1b1b and J etc might have come at the same time into the Balkans as R1b in other words. They could also have come earlier or later. Just because they are more common there today does not tell us much. --Andrew Lancaster (talk) 14:32, 15 October 2010 (UTC)

You might want to check the latest sourcing on R1b. It is now also considered to be a potential Neolithic entrant.--Andrew Lancaster (talk) 14:36, 15 October 2010 (UTC)

The question is which "invasion events"? Pretty much every example of a genetic lineage comes from somewhere else than where it is today.
R1a is associated with Slavic languages today in the Balkans, and maybe they explain its distribution today. But R1a was in Europe very early also. Maybe it was once more common in Europe before the Neolithic entrants just for example.
Concerning R1b it is easier if you read the references on the WP article. But short answer is that it probably DID pass the Balkans. It is still there also, although it is not normally true that the place where a haplogroup is most common is therefore the place of origin anyway.--Andrew Lancaster (talk) 19:42, 15 October 2010 (UTC)

Concerning R1a, I think there are references on R1a but the basic point I was referring to is that R1a has been found in several quite old skeletons. Although we associate R1a today with IE either as a whole, or more likely certain branches of IE, I would say that such associations come from later movements, and these movements only carried branches of R1a.
Concerning models of IE entry into the Balkans, really I do not think we have any sources applying genetics to this in detail yet, at least not with the latest data, but I think what you are suggesting on your own initiative is that E and J amongst Albanian ancestral populations (whoever they were) implies that IE entered their ancestral populations (whoever they were) via a minority, if we accept IE was Eurasian, or by a majority if we argue that IE came from Anatolia. Correct? Sounds reasonable though speculative. In any case, for better or worse I don't think we can say this on WP because no one has published such a remark and I think it goes beyond what is allowed by WP:SYNTH. WP is not the place to publish the latest cutting edge thoughts on the latest data.--Andrew Lancaster (talk) 07:50, 16 October 2010 (UTC)

OK, so it sounds like I interpreted you correctly. Anyway, concerning this speculation keep in mind that the original IE genetic population may have been over-run in many places by a later "Balto-Slavic and Indo-Aryan" movement out of the steppes. Are you familiar with the idea that IE expanded from the steppes more than once, with different waves overlaying each other? I think the R1a distribution we see today is mainly a result of later waves, not the earliest ones. So it is very hard to say what the IE genetic make-up was like. I tend to think this will be a question better handled by autosomal DNA studies, which are now becoming more common. Y DNA can apparently change quickly with movements of elites.--Andrew Lancaster (talk) 08:10, 16 October 2010 (UTC)

But, while we are speculating and having fun, my own thought on the matter is that European IE languages (not including Balto-Slavic, which entered or re-entered much later) spread from an eastern Balkan staging point. There were as you probably know some quite major cultural complexes there at the right time. I'd suggest that the IE elites were from the steppes and could not simply over-run these populations, but instead formed a new hybrid culture that then spread later in another step. The older cultures were quite likely more "Middle Eastern" (J, E, R1b). It would then perhaps be BRANCHES of this hybrid culture which spread most of the languages and Y haplogroups of modern Western Europe, probably excluding the I haplogroups, and languages like Basque. That would make the E and J Albanians another branch from the same family, but simply one where different Y haplogroups dominated. None of this speculation can be used in WP though, as far as I know, because no-one has published it except on the internet.--Andrew Lancaster (talk) 08:17, 16 October 2010 (UTC)

The term bottleneck gets thrown around a lot, so I think it is better to explain what you mean in other words. Consider that basically all Y haplogroups in Europe are surprisingly young. Does that mean all of them are the result of a bottleneck? I tend to think Y haplogroups simply have a strong tendency to over-run each other quickly. Remember they do not mix, so by definition it is "winner take all", every generation.--Andrew Lancaster (talk) 09:32, 16 October 2010 (UTC)

Hi again. Short answer is that researchers do not all agree. Did you see the latest though? http://dienekes.blogspot.com/2010/11/near-eastern-origin-of-european.html http://blogs.discovermagazine.com/gnxp/2010/11/european-man-of-many-faces-cain-vs-abel/ --Andrew Lancaster (talk) 12:39, 10 November 2010 (UTC)

I'd say the case for Neolithic population movements being the dominating factor is strengthening.--Andrew Lancaster (talk) 15:18, 10 November 2010 (UTC)

I just mean that it seems increasingly likely that a lot of people moved from the Middle East to Europe, but concerning the details, there is of course still a lot of on-going discussion. Try those blogs I mentioned perhaps, because they are fairly thoughtful summaries.--Andrew Lancaster (talk) 15:40, 10 November 2010 (UTC)

Scmitt & Frasheri

Sa kam marre librat e Schmittit dhe Frasherit. Te dy thuajn qe ishte ne 1448 rrethimi i Sfetigradit.--Gaius Claudius Nero (talk) 21:44, 28 October 2010 (UTC)

E ke lexuar Schnmittin? Cfare mendon per ate? Une mendoj se eshte pakashume revizionist i historises edhe meret me shume me mendimet e veta sesa historin. Ai thote qe Skenderbeu s'ka qene shqiptar edhe e quan Gjonin Ivan. Ku a gjet kete, une se di fare. Megjithate, mund te kem me shume kohe per te punuar kete jave edhe do mundoj qe ta shtoj historin e Svetigradit dhe luften venedike.--Gaius Claudius Nero (talk) 04:52, 1 November 2010 (UTC)

Administrator nomination

Hi Aigest! I am aware of your calmness on edits, also your knowledge on linguistics seems to be interesting. I want to nominate you for an Administrator! Would that be OK with you? —Anna Comnena (talk) 14:22, 2 November 2010 (UTC)

November 2010

I noticed that you have posted comments in a language other than English. When on the English-language Wikipedia, please always use English, no matter to whom you address your comments. This is so that comments may be comprehensible to the community at large. If the use of another language is unavoidable, please provide a translation of the comments. For more details, see Wikipedia:Talk page guidelines. Thank you, and sorry for template! It is faster. :) --WhiteWriter ^speaks 20:35, 3 November 2010 (UTC)

Albanian names

Hello Aigest! I have been mulling about the names of the medieval Albanian biographical articles for some time. Shouldn't the first names at least be in English, i.e. "George Arianit Komneni", etc.? I understand that because Albanian uses the Latin alphabet, it is easier to maintain the native form, but this is standard practice both in WP (at least for non-modern people, where close transliteration is followed) and in literature (consider Fine's Balkan books, heavily used in these articles) with all sorts of languages, like French, German or even Greek. It certainly makes it easier to remember and/or recognize a name. What do you think? Constantine ✍ 14:17, 4 November 2010 (UTC)

Names that cannot be rendered to an English equivalent or some other widely used & recognized form should of course remain as they are, just as "Andronikos" or "Alexios" for instance in Greek. I don't really remember any of the names you mean off the top of my head, but if you could give me a few examples, we could see how to solve this. For the missing references, provided that the name is easily rendered ("George", "John", etc) I don't see a problem. If it is more obscure, then we go back to the previous rule. Constantine ✍ 13:02, 5 November 2010 (UTC)

Hmmm, I think that here too, the more common form ought to be used, unless the Albanian form deviates considerably so that it becomes unrecognizable. In other words, Idriz is clearly a local form of Idris, so that the change is a relatively minor one. What do you think? Constantine ✍ 15:17, 6 November 2010 (UTC)

Good. Either way, before implementing it, it would have to be aired there. Personally, for names as simple as "Abdyl", it can easily remain the way it is. My concern was mostly for (to the non-Albanian eye) awkward forms like "Gjergj".Constantine ✍ 08:31, 8 November 2010 (UTC)

Albanian numerals

Thanks, I added some of this info to the footnote. Benwing (talk) 00:56, 7 November 2010 (UTC)

scutari

i copyedited a little bit. the article is very interesting and must be used. this reminds of another article: http://albanianhistory.net/texts15/AH1474.html. it seems very interesting and should also be used in the future.--Gaius Claudius Nero (talk) 23:18, 16 November 2010 (UTC)

Skanderbeg

After 7 questions Antidiskriminator finally brought the source that supposedly has information about the non-Albanian soldiers of Skanderbeg. The source not only had no information about these non-Albanian soldiers of Skanderbeg, but also Antidiskriminator was quoting a section about Skanderbeg's enemies and not his allies.--— ZjarriRrethues — ^talk 01:22, 19 November 2010 (UTC)

Albanian Revolt of 1910

Copy edited, did some refs mgmt and wrote the lede to Albanian Revolt of 1910. Please review. I brought it to DYK: let's see if good editors will give feedback. Once that it goes to DYK, it is safe to bring it directly to GA, in my opinion it is ready. --Sulmuesi (talk) 22:33, 20 November 2010 (UTC)

IMO the only problem that we might have for the GA part of this article, which you very well wrote, is the lack of a background paragraph. Can you please write it? It will be the aftermath for the 1909 revolt anyways. Nje rruge e tre kater pune, :-). --Sulmuesi (talk) 02:18, 23 November 2010 (UTC)

Naming

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--Sulmuesi (talk) 15:56, 21 November 2010 (UTC)

I found something interesting would you have a look at this ? TKS

http://members.virtualtourist.com/m/3a5ef/ --66.131.205.127 (talk) 17:35, 21 November 2010 (UTC)

Wow, Albanian heroes everywhere. But how cool is it that the Hungarians pay respect to him! --Sulmuesi (talk) 16:40, 22 November 2010 (UTC)

Agree

Template:Campaignbox Ottoman-Albanian Wars's top points to the League of Lezhe. One thing at a time. I agree with you though. --Sulmuesi (talk) 08:50, 22 November 2010 (UTC)

I just need you to keep an eye at my talk page, because I won't be in wikipedia in the next week. I have two articles GA nominees Wikipedia:WikiProject_Albania/Showcase#Recently_applied_for_GA and a DYK application Wikipedia:WikiProject_Albania/Showcase#Recently_applied_for_DYK. There shouldn't be any major problem for any of the three, but you know how things are... --Sulmuesi (talk) 09:08, 22 November 2010 (UTC)

Believe me I've been looking for them in Noli. I have the 2009 book in English, which is a scanned version of 1947. I'll keep looking. --Sulmuesi (talk) 15:33, 22 November 2010 (UTC)

I don't, but shouldn't that be a translation of the original? --Sulmuesi (talk) 15:39, 22 November 2010 (UTC)

Actually there is a lot of shit there. In the beginning I wasn't understanding what was going on in the book and I hated it, but than little by little I understood the layout and it's actually a delicious piece of work. Sometimes I think that not a lot of international biographers no longer messed up with Skanderbeg: Noli's exhaustive work was a jewel and straightened up a lot of crap that had been around. Frasheri and Bicoku have brought it to an even higher level, but I'm very curious to see Schmitt's book: he in my opinion sees everything through the practical eyes of the Venetians. --Sulmuesi (talk) 15:48, 22 November 2010 (UTC)

Ky version eshte me i mire se ai anglisht pasi ne ate anglisht duhet te shkosh ne fund te librit, kurse ketu i ke shenimet poshte faqes. Me gjen dot "Archivio del Gran Priorato di Napoli e Sicilia del Sovrano Militare Ordine di Malta, Napoli"?--Sulmuesi (talk) 15:52, 22 November 2010 (UTC)

Shih reference 88. --Sulmuesi (talk) 16:10, 22 November 2010 (UTC)

Per Nikopojen shfrytezova Anamalin, tani do me duhet te shfrytezoj Frasherin, pra t'i kem te dyja hipotezat. Ne pergjithesi Anamali eshte me "Barletist", Frasheri largohet dhe eshte me dokumental. Anamali e con te sulltani 9 vjec, Frasheri 18. Do them ne artikull qe "All scholars agree that at a certain point he was sent as a hostage to the sultan, but they disagree as to when" and then I'll list in a note the 9 year old partisans and the 18 year old partisans (that I believe include more than Frasheri, although I don't have a full list for now). One thing at a time, if the historians haven't figured it out in 500 years of studies (we're exactly 500 years from Barleti's first publication), we can't figure it out by ourselves, but just say what they say. --Sulmuesi (talk) 14:00, 23 November 2010 (UTC)

Can you please fully cite Frasheri's interview? I entered a note for the Nicopolis crap. --Sulmuesi (talk) 20:43, 23 November 2010 (UTC)

DYK for Albanian Revolt of 1910

On 24 November 2010, Did you know? was updated with a fact from the article Albanian Revolt of 1910, which you created or substantially expanded. The fact was ... that after suppressing the Albanian Revolt of 1910, the Ottoman government prohibited publications written in the Albanian alphabet and closed the Albanian schools? You are welcome to check how many hits the article got while on the front page (here's how, quick check) and add it to DYKSTATS if it got over 5,000. If you know of another interesting fact from a recently created article, then please suggest it on the Did you know? talk page.

Materialscientist (talk) 12:05, 24 November 2010 (UTC)

I know

I was following you. --_Sulmues^{Let's talk} 22:17, 17 June 2010 (UTC)

Mund te kontribuoj me shume prej tyre pasi kam Historine e Popullit Shqiptar 2002 (tertiary source) ne pdf. Downloaded from the scribd that Zjarri brought. But let's have a game plan: Can you draft a list of articles and we can work on them together? You use Noli I use Historia e Popullit Shqiptar? --_Sulmues^{Let's talk} 22:22, 17 June 2010 (UTC)

It'll be Nobility of Albania, consistent with other similar articles in Wikipedia. Send me an email, see top of my talk page. --_Sulmues^{Let's talk} 22:30, 17 June 2010 (UTC) Ata artikuj do ndihmojne shume pasi te njejtat referenca do perdorim per Pashalliqet shqiptare. --_Sulmues^{Let's talk} 22:40, 17 June 2010 (UTC) Nuk e kam lexuar Pellumbin dhe nuk e gjej online. --_Sulmues^{Let's talk} 22:57, 17 June 2010 (UTC) Lexo emailin qe te dergova. --_Sulmues^{Let's talk} 23:00, 17 June 2010 (UTC) Oh, ti flet per Masakren e Bejve te Manastirit, qe Kadareja e pershkroi te "Komisioni i Festes"? --_Sulmues^{Let's talk} 23:02, 17 June 2010 (UTC) Nuk e kisha menduar. Nje masaker e Barthelemiut qe coi ne vonesen e pavaresise. Ajo masaker duhet te ngelet ne historine e popullit shqiptar. Eshte e cuditcme qe ne Manastir kane ndodhur dy ngjarje shume te rendesishme (nje e keqe nje e mire). --_Sulmues^{Let's talk} 23:21, 17 June 2010 (UTC)

Proposed to DYK

It's a very good article, and you'll get some help from great Wikipedians. Template_talk:Did_you_know#Monastir_massacre_of_1830. Hope you don't mind. I'll also work on the article. --_Sulmues^{Let's talk} 14:16, 30 June 2010 (UTC)

You can mention its relevance in litterature by referring to Komisioni i Festes novel of Ismail Kadare. --_Sulmues^{Let's talk} 14:29, 30 June 2010 (UTC)

One other thing: Can you please provide the page in Vickers where you see the reference? And possibly provide inline citation? The hook should be verifiable in English for a DYK. --_Sulmues^{Let's talk} 15:09, 30 June 2010 (UTC)

ahem, can you move it to Massacre of the Albanian beys? The reasons are multiple.

No dirtying the name of the city of Manastir,
No need to have a year, because the Albanian beys were massacred only once.
No descriptive title needed because in history this is already known as the Massacre of the Albanian beys, see p167 of Henry Fanshawe.

What do you think? --_Sulmues^{Let's talk} 19:29, 30 June 2010 (UTC)

Moved. The old title will of course redirect. It just looks better and we have Albanians in the title. Changed the hook to represent "Beys and their forces". Indeed the hook is mostly about the "treacherously killing" --_Sulmues^{Let's talk} 20:27, 1 July 2010 (UTC)

The links were messed up by an IP editor who made sure to point to the "Kopertina" of the book, and now they don't point directly to the page. You should probably revert them. [16] I didn't because I thought probably you'd like them. Now let's see if we can call the beys noblety. It seems like they are the equivalent of the Western duke. If you want to work together, send me sources and I'll do translations. --_Sulmues^{Let's talk} 20:43, 1 July 2010 (UTC)