User talk:Andreasegde/Archive 12

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Lennonade[edit]

I know. I doesn't belong in theJackson article, but I liked it so much I though I'd stick it in there. The problem is making sure these nut-job Jackson fans don't try and make Jarvis look like the villain. He did a noble thing, Jackson's just a mental prick, but I'd no more say that in the article that what is there now. Silly cunts.--Crestville 15:41, 8 May 2007 (UTC)[reply]

When did you get interested in Jacko? I remember him singing about a rat ("Ben") but I liked the Five better. I have a theory about his face now, and I think he had the plastic knife to make him look like Jodie Foster = Foster as "Clarice Starling". Jodie as Jacko + Jacko as Jodie It's a match. (She was a big star at the time, and they were "good friends" - ho-hum). Check it out.andreasegde 06:59, 9 May 2007 (UTC)[reply]
I dunno about that but there's a really good mugshot of him looking like Rod Hull's Emu [1], [2]. See what I mean?! I dunno of any friendship between Jacko and Emu (or indeed Hull). You've got to love Rod Hull, though. Kept us laughing right up to the end. I don't like Jackson at all, I find him utterly tasteless, but so forceful are his supporters that I've made it my mission to make sure they don't turn his article into a fansite cocksucking session.--Crestville 15:11, 9 May 2007 (UTC)[reply]
I remember one of the first times you made me laugh was a joke about smearing Hull's roof with grease, or something.andreasegde 15:14, 9 May 2007 (UTC)[reply]
For the last time, it wasn't me! I was nowhere near his roof when I greased it!--Crestville 16:18, 10 May 2007 (UTC)[reply]
Like that bloke that was wandering through London at three in the morning with gloves (in August) a hammer and a jemmy. He told the scuffers he was thinking of doing a spot of DIY... andreasegde 18:00, 10 May 2007 (UTC)[reply]

Drastic Advice(!)/Contributions[edit]

I am usually thicker-skinned than you may have seen me demonstrate in the recent past, but thanks for the encouragement. I think many people resist change partly because they can't envision the future. On the other hand, I've had some clunker ideas and so I try to listen to negative feedback and learn from it. In the end, if I think something is good I'll push it pretty hard before giving up. For the nav box/portal idea, the portal should be improved anyway and even if the nav box stays roughly as it is, any work I do on the portal will be worth it.

P.S. If I get a vote, it won't be for Yoko Oh-No! John Cardinal 12:03, 9 May 2007 (UTC)[reply]

Forgot to comment on Contributions tool. I was aware of that; there's also an edit counter which you might find interesting. Your summary is here. Mostly Beatles in the top-10, with Yorkshire colloquialisms tucked in at #8. The big surprise was Kennedy assassination theories at #9! John Cardinal 12:11, 9 May 2007 (UTC)[reply]

Uhh... Don't remind me of that one. It was when I was still "wet behind the ears", as they say.andreasegde 13:55, 9 May 2007 (UTC)[reply]
You mean your ears are now dry??? :P --kingboyk 17:55, 10 May 2007 (UTC)[reply]
No, it means when I was a bit "green". Work that one out!andreasegde 18:03, 10 May 2007 (UTC)[reply]

That peanut butter jelly time thingy is looking fantastic on your page! Better still, it seems to have come astray from the text that accompanied it. I love it! :) --kingboyk 23:10, 9 May 2007 (UTC)[reply]

It's gone! from other pages as well. Did it die, or was it eaten by Wiki-trolls? andreasegde 15:57, 10 May 2007 (UTC)[reply]

It got deleted. I've restored it but will have to take it through the proper channels, it may yet die :( --kingboyk 16:15, 10 May 2007 (UTC)[reply]
Could it be classified as "Trivia"? (Large Ouch!) andreasegde 17:35, 10 May 2007 (UTC)[reply]
No it's a serious encyclopedic image and it needs to stay! If it doesn't, I'll be writing a rude letter to Jimbo Wales! :P --kingboyk 18:01, 10 May 2007 (UTC)[reply]
"serious encyclopedic image"? I love it, but I can't believe you wrote that. You may gain a reputation as being a wild-card admin... (You know how many comments are taken the wrong way on these pages :)
In all seriousness, I've undeleted the image (it was deleted at author's request which I thought unacceptable as it's in use) but I've it at "possibly unfree images" as there was a suggestion it might be a copyright violation. Chances are it will be deleted. --kingboyk 18:33, 10 May 2007 (UTC)[reply]
I've saved it for posterity on my PC (Peanut Control) andreasegde 18:37, 10 May 2007 (UTC)[reply]
BTW, could you have a look at the GAR review pages? Astrid is on hold, but no comments have been left, and Stuart is waiting, after having been worked on, per the reviewers suggestions. andreasegde 18:22, 10 May 2007 (UTC)[reply]
I'll have a look later on, sure. --kingboyk 18:33, 10 May 2007 (UTC)[reply]
As you say, Astrid is on hold but he didn't leave a note. There's also no GAN template on it. I think the best solution is if I put a GA nom template back on it and remove the "on hold", so another reviewer can look at it. I'll do that then look at the Sutcliffe article. --kingboyk 15:55, 11 May 2007 (UTC)[reply]
You've only waited 2 days on Stuart's article. I say give it another day or two and if there's no response I'll ask another editor to look, or possibly review it myself. --kingboyk 16:21, 11 May 2007 (UTC)[reply]

It's The Deaf Aids![edit]

I know what you mean, but if you listen to it enough times, you'll hear that it's them (listen to "Hurt" & "Hurtin' Kind") I've compaired it to the vynal, and the sound quality is far better (but then it would be). If you listen to the Ready Steady Go "mimed performance", it's the same. If it's a performance by a tribute band, they're deffo Scousers, and they should be earning a fortune!! Cheers Pal, Vera, Chuck & Dave 13:07, 9 May 2007 (UTC)[reply]

Family Fortunes[edit]

OK La, we're werkin on it (not the twins yet cos they're in bed). They'll suss yer! Vera, Chuck & Dave 23:12, 9 May 2007 (UTC)[reply]

Salt in the wound? Not at all dear chap - it's called reverse psychology! Right, now back to "Name That Prune" :) Sigismond Fraud
Shit, that was exactly the phrase I couldn't remember today when I wanted some cake-eaters to deliberately make mistakes in English. It makes them all confused, tha' knows... :) andreasegde 18:17, 10 May 2007 (UTC)[reply]
Cake eaters! LOL! BTW, if we suss yer, does Crestville win £5? Vera, Chuck & Dave 18:21, 10 May 2007 (UTC)[reply]
Nah, Poppy will, because I've got a £5 bet wi' meself that she'll win! (How pathetic - betting with yourself.. :)

BTW, look at the "The Beatles' haircut" on the Astrid page, and you will see Sutcliffe (in 1960) with the mop-top, but Besty and Harry not. Game, set and a light trim please, Mr. Barber (and something for weekend, nudge, nudge...) andreasegde 18:31, 10 May 2007 (UTC)[reply]

Gerroff our kid - his hair's just run outta Brylcreem an fell in his gob! Moptop My Arse!! Vera, Chuck & Dave 18:38, 10 May 2007 (UTC)[reply]
What? Your umentionable rectum has a mop-top? Are you of Greek or Spanish heritage dear sir? One finds it very perturbing to speak to a gentleman of foreign extraction with a full-on blast of garlic on the aforesaid gentleman's breath, and a hearth-rug in his wedding tackle area. How very dare you, you Cad... Sir Sean de Garlic-os 18:31, 10 May 2007 (UTC)[reply]
Què? Manalito Despongecakos

Paul McCartney Have a look at the last edit, is it me or has sourced info bin removed? Vera, Chuck & Dave 19:45, 10 May 2007 (UTC)[reply]

Fixed it, and made the specific quote stronger. Hold on, "Manalito Despongecakos"? I though it might have been "Manalito DesMadeira-cakos" :)) andreasegde 20:11, 10 May 2007 (UTC)[reply]
Quiz: Who was "Manolito", and which TV series was he in? That's showing me age, tha' knows. andreasegde 20:21, 10 May 2007 (UTC)[reply]

Bored[edit]

Waiting for Mimi Smith's FA review (three Supports so far) Cynthia Lennon (#3 in the GA charts) and waiting for GA replies for Stuart Sutcliffe and Astrid Kirchherr (the reviewer seems to be busy at the moment).

It's like waiting for a bus; you wait for 45 minutes and then three arrive at the same time (as the woman expecting triplets said to the doctor) Ho-hum... andreasegde 20:35, 10 May 2007 (UTC)[reply]

Yikes[edit]

You got an oppose from Tony, the copyeditor. His complaints aren't numerous, so get that pencil sharpened... --kingboyk 23:00, 10 May 2007 (UTC)[reply]

Ahhh, the Australian... (I've read about his prowess and his very pertinent thoughts about simple English). I will get to work. andreasegde 23:02, 10 May 2007 (UTC)[reply]
I have done my best, according to the inimitable Kingboyk style. Three supports and one oppose for Mimi (but I was very Kingboyk-esque in dealing with it) so it's not so bad. Is it always so difficult? (Don't answer that...) andreasegde 00:10, 11 May 2007 (UTC)[reply]

Name That Prune[edit]

Hello Austria! Here are the results from the London jury: I reckon that you are the Drummer, but I'm out-voted 3 to 1 by spooky female intuition. So the result is: You are the Vocalist. The Scouseneys from Oxfordshire in London

I would if I could, but they wouldn't tell me! They just kept goin Tee Hee, HEEEEEE, and do we win a penquin!Vera, Chuck & Dave 00:29, 11 May 2007 (UTC)[reply]
They Made yer la! They friggin nailed it! SPOOKY! Vera, Chuck & Dave 00:41, 11 May 2007 (UTC)[reply]


LOL! No, it's not that your'e a plonker or standing next to a penquin, they say it was easy because you are a fine looking looking lad, and you are the only one NOT wearing a "Band Uniform"! And they don't want a fiver, they want a penquin! Cheers Pal, Vera, Chuck & Dave 15:29, 11 May 2007 (UTC)[reply]
C'mon then, where's this picture? I want to see if Andrea is as pretty as I've been lead to believe! --kingboyk 15:45, 11 May 2007 (UTC)[reply]
The piccy of the band on his user page la! Vera, Chuck & Dave 15:49, 11 May 2007 (UTC)[reply]
Jive club? What's the band? The one on Wikipedia or another band? --kingboyk 16:05, 11 May 2007 (UTC)[reply]
I think they're called "The Big Easy" at the Jive Club - the piccy on his page. Vera, Chuck & Dave 16:09, 11 May 2007 (UTC)[reply]

Oi, don't let everybody know! They'll start making wisecracks about penguins and the like... BTW, don't look for a piccy on The Big Easy page as well, because I'm not on it - it's the fat bloke that was in the band before me. Quarrkk.... andreasegde 16:18, 11 May 2007 (UTC)[reply]

I had to tell him cos he's an admin! anyway where you bin hidin Frankie Baby? Vera, Chuck & Dave 16:29, 11 May 2007 (UTC)[reply]
Frankie baby? You're right. Put the shit penguin suit on and sing down your nose without any vibrato. I once was asked - and sang - "My Way" at a cake-eaters wedding, fer Christ's sake - how silly is that? "And-a now the end is near, and so I face the final curtain..." I was also asked to vibrate my tonsils at another wedding with the "Clapton is Dog" song, "Tears in Heaven", until I pointed out that the song is about his kid falling out of a window and... :)) andreasegde 17:15, 11 May 2007 (UTC)[reply]
A mate of mine who plays bass, told me that at an Irish wedding do once, their singer was asked for "She Was Happy 'Til She Met You". I blame the parents! Vera, Chuck & Dave 17:29, 11 May 2007 (UTC) P.S. Still I'm a fine one to talk, I can only sing "Maggie May" (Da Derty no good robbin' one) at weddings when I'm bevvied! Vera, Chuck & Dave[reply]
LOL! I think Vera was once interested in playing guitar (and probably still twangs it a bit whilst singing protest songs). I will also bet that he has a Spanish acoustic guitar in the corner, in the cupboard under the stairs, or hanging on the wall. Am I right, or am I right? andreasegde 17:36, 11 May 2007 (UTC)[reply]
I've tried havin a twang, but me fingers are too big! Vera, Chuck & Dave 17:41, 11 May 2007 (UTC)[reply]
But do you have a guitar at home? If you don't, buy one for yer kids. It's the best way to make friends; everybody loves a good tune. Hold on, you were interested in playing bass, or (God forbid) drums. Which one is it? egde 18:18, 11 May 2007 (UTC)[reply]

Jackson[edit]

Noooo Andy! I've dealt with this one before. We have to pretend to be diplomatic towards this feller, he turns un-objectionable comments into incitements of violence in his head, so you don't want to make fun of him or he thinks he has serious ammo! Already he is accusing me and my "gang" (that would be you, I guess) of hating and mocking him on the basis of your one comment. I know we like a bit of a wally to make fun of but this feller seems to have taken Jackson's mindset a bit close to his heart, and believes himself to be a bit of a martyr. A softly soflty approach is required, methinks.--Kofi Anan 16:01, 11 May 2007 (UTC)[reply]

Shall I give him a "Wikifish"? Vera, Chuck & Dave 16:05, 11 May 2007 (UTC)[reply]
I'm not sure if that would be diplomatic of like poking a sleeping bear. Maybe a wakkofish?--Crestville 16:06, 11 May 2007 (UTC)[reply]
Hahahahahaha!! Nice one Our Joe!! Vera, Chuck & Dave 16:10, 11 May 2007 (UTC)[reply]
1-0 to me, I think--Crestville 16:20, 11 May 2007 (UTC)[reply]
£5 to Cresty. Will this man ever be able to hold aloft a used £5 note? I'll bet £4.50 that he never will. andreasegde 17:20, 11 May 2007 (UTC)[reply]

Yeah! That's the spirit!--Crestville 16:26, 11 May 2007 (UTC)[reply]

I can be nice when I want to. Penguins all huddle together, and the coldest are allowed to stand in the middle, and the hardy buggers stand on the outside to protect the ones that are freezin' their wedding tackle off. It's a good system, in my opinion. Quaarrkk... andreasegde 16:29, 11 May 2007 (UTC)[reply]
Plus now he thinks we like him. It's perfect (and no-one would ever know....)--Crestville 16:34, 11 May 2007 (UTC)[reply]
Well, we do. He's dedicated (although a little too immersed in one subject). He's also a top wassock, which is a good thing to be, and much more intelligent than loads of other revered dipsticks - who ought to learn from him. I'd let him give my sister one anyday (you should see how she eats a boiled egg.) I'd gladly give him a twonk Banstar for being dedicated, but one hasn't been created yet. He deserves our support, as any Leeds United fan would know. andreasegde 16:42, 11 May 2007 (UTC)[reply]
You should take up fishing, Crestus-villus-um (that's Latin). Although having never participated in the sport myself, one learns that to catch a fish, one has to snag it, and then give it a feeling of escape/freedom, before hauling it in (after it is shagged out). Veerus, Chuckus and Davis-um will know that, because he does it on a regular basis with irate clients of his who are standing in a burning house but refuse to be rescued. andreasegde 17:27, 11 May 2007 (UTC)[reply]
How did you know that egde? Some people freeze, an yer just have to friggin grab em! Spooky! Vera, Chuck & Dave 18:29, 11 May 2007 (UTC)[reply]
Because I read anything that is not about a soap series. I refer you to Rabbits/kangaroos/people shitting themselves in the headlights article. It's fascinating stuff. egde 18:33, 11 May 2007 (UTC)[reply]
Me helmet's off to you ole chap! Vera, Chuck & Dave 18:42, 11 May 2007 (UTC)[reply]

I refer you to the "Fireman's lift", which any able-bodied person learned when they were young, and "Frig this for a lark - yer coming with me, whether ya like it or not!" :)) egde 18:48, 11 May 2007 (UTC)[reply]


ONE user? Lol, I see that you do indeed have a 'gang' Crestville. To answer andreasedge, I believe "in" Michael Jackson. That, to me, means that I do not think he is guilty of the allegations placed against him. I believe in God, so you know, and do not think that Michael Jackson is in any way a deity or other higher being. This is ridiculous, on-your-face rubbish. I am an independant-minded person, I have my own opinions, and I do not think that Michael is perfect. He has made his fare share of mistakes over the years, but I refuse to condone the false allegations being placed against him by various third parties. I want a diplomatic solution to the crisis that has evolved from the brit awards section. I honestly think that, in a wikipedian frame of mind, several changes crestville has made are detracting from the NPOV standard of the article. I am striving for balance. I do not appreciate being accussed of "the blind faith of a super fan" as I am not one. I hope that you understand this, as I am not "out to fan gush" or anything of such. I want to remove "hater gush" and "fan gush" and leave a NPOV article. If you have a problem with that, I can't help. --Paaerduag 04:34, 12 May 2007 (UTC)[reply]

Well written sir. I agree with you. egde 15:42, 12 May 2007 (UTC)[reply]
Actually, that's still only two, one of whom is being nice and one of whom isn't actually talking about you. I don't think you need to start worrying yet. I have still yet to see you present anything from that particular section which is "anti-Jackson".--Crestville 16:10, 13 May 2007 (UTC)[reply]

A word to the wise[edit]

I am of the opinion that being called "Andy" is tantamount to being subjected to the ignomy of being regarded as a plumber's mate (which I actually was, for one very long year in my youth). Being called Andrew is also a bit iffy, as I would never call users by their forenames - it would be like calling my beloved Mater "Audrey", and not "Mam". Andrea is also out of the ballpark, because it sounds like I have two mammary glands. I would prefer egde, as it sounds cooler (good grief, I just used an americanism) but probably because it has that indefinable distance that one had with one's teacher(s). I will now change my user name to reflect my wishes. I thank you for your patience (am I bored, or what?) egde 17:53, 11 May 2007 (UTC)[reply]

How about "Dizzy Gillespegde"? Kenny Jazz & The Ballmen
LOL! I can't even pronounce that... Right, you started this liebling, so what about "Vera, the Duracell Fireman"? (I think that's really quite good, BTW. :) egde 18:27, 11 May 2007 (UTC)[reply]

OK lieblings, I am off to the pub, and to later sink my nuts in, and on, a bouncy castle (God-willing). I wish you all a good review, and may your dreams be Wikipedia-free. egde 18:30, 11 May 2007 (UTC)[reply]

Sutcliffe[edit]

I am a professional art historian, who once worked at the Walker Art Gallery. Here's one of my articles.[3] I also happen to have been born in Penny Lane, and studied at Quarry Bank School, so I'm rather steeped in Beatledom. I guess a case could be made that I count as a reliable source in my own right for art criticism, but I tried to footnote the section as best I could. I thought Sutcliffe deserved to have a reasonably serious section devoted to his art. Paul B 21:15, 12 May 2007 (UTC)[reply]

I haven't looked at the edits in question (and thanks very much for taking your time to work on the article). In general terms: If you're writing for the Tate's magazine you're probably indeed an "authority" but to be cited as a reliable source on Wikipedia your work also have to be published. Otherwise it counts as "original research". Perhaps you could write a piece on Sutcliffe's art and have it published in a reliable journal? Then you could indeed be cited. --kingboyk 21:25, 12 May 2007 (UTC)[reply]
The reviewer for Sutcliffe seems to have gone AWOL. egde 23:13, 13 May 2007 (UTC)[reply]
Alright, I'll take a look at that and either pass/fail myself or restore it as active on the GAC list. --kingboyk 21:11, 13 May 2007 (UTC)[reply]

A comment from a very small Austrian that was born in Germany[edit]

Ich denk an dich Liebster. —The preceding unsigned comment was added by 193.186.50.33 (talk) 00:22, 13 May 2007 (UTC).[reply]

I know who you are! Were you drinking whisky with Pork Belly, 10 Euros, Freddie or Kati last night? Nah, I don't think so, you were too busy thinking about the unusual Austrian practice of bumping. egde 02:28, 13 May 2007 (UTC)[reply]
THERE'LL ALWAYS BE AN AUSTRIA, AND AUSTRIA SHALL BE FREE (unless it's 1939-1945 or that empire than fell down)--An informed political commentator 16:20, 13 May 2007 (UTC)[reply]
Which photo should I upload: Dried flowers on a gas meter (only in this country) or a really massive big-boned bird in a tracksuit leaning against a BMW and smoking a fag...? It's both sides of the coin. egde 16:39, 13 May 2007 (UTC)[reply]
The latter! The latter! BTW, that yank on the Noel Gallagher page is getting really pissy now, it's so funny. He's an idiot.--Crestville 16:51, 13 May 2007 (UTC)[reply]
Both are on. egde 16:52, 13 May 2007 (UTC)[reply]

Mimi Smith[edit]

Her FA review is now 3-2. I have have worked a lot on changing everything the reviewers disagreed with, but I don't want to go through this again. I will explain my reasons after the review is over (I know that I said that after Macca, but this time I'm really sure.) egde 03:09, 13 May 2007 (UTC)[reply]

I hadn't noticed that, but it doesn't look too bad. There's still a chance. Chin up! --kingboyk 17:24, 13 May 2007 (UTC) PS: Best not to strike other people's comments mate, use the {{done}} thing if you like... Keep on rocking![reply]

Mimi is alright, it's Cynthia, Astrid and especially Sutcliffe I'm waiting for. egde 17:41, 13 May 2007 (UTC)[reply]

(From Sutcliffe)

  • The sources used are rather narrow. It would be nice to see some other books cited other than just Spitz, Cnythia and Miles. Put "Beatle books" on your Birthday/Christmas list Andrew!

 Done I have other books, but I learned that too many citations is an overload. Christmas? I can't wait that long! My birthday is in December as well.... Bugger. If I could work out how to use a bank card on Amazon I'd buy a lot more. I'll have to wait until June when I will be in London with Steel class. Thanks for looking at it. (BTW, I knew about the death timeline, but I have learned to leave one or two glaring things in for the reviewer to tell me about.) egde 22:33, 13 May 2007 (UTC)[reply]

Books[edit]

I have a good idea about the books we all have: Make a list/page of who has which books somewhere on the project pages. Any minor points that need to referenced would only take a note on the "Books/References" talk page. It also means that books would not be bought twice over. I want to buy 4/5 revised-rewritten ones in June when I am in London, BTW.

(On the negative side, I wonder just how many will reply to this idea.) egde 12:23, 14 May 2007 (UTC)[reply]

Books that one actually has, and not books that one can borrow from friends/libraries:

andreasegde:

  • Lennon, Cynthia (2006). John. Hodder & Stoughton. ISBN 0-340-89828-3.
  • Miles, Barry (1998). Many Years From Now. Vintage-Random House. ISBN 0-7493-8658-4.
  • Spitz, Bob (2005). The Beatles: The Biography. Little, Brown and Company (New York). ISBN 1-84513-160-6.

egde 12:30, 14 May 2007 (UTC)[reply]

John Cardinal:

I have some other, more obscure books, too, but the ones above are the ones I cite regularly. John Cardinal 13:24, 14 May 2007 (UTC)[reply]


  • I think I should copy this over to the Project page. What about someone (like Kingboyk?) making a page on the project page for this stuff?... egde 14:50, 14 May 2007 (UTC)[reply]
    • Great idea, put it on the main project page for now. I have several too, but all boxed away (Lewisohn (both), Norman, Braun, Cynthia, Goldman, MacDonald, etc etc). Looks like Mr Cardinal's collection overlaps mine tho. --kingboyk 17:16, 18 May 2007 (UTC)[reply]

Accolade[edit]

I hereby award you the Nobel Prize For Literature "Reel 'em In" award for casting your line of pretend complements and ego-massaging into the waters of cult-following and snagging a certain contributer hook, line and sinker before hauling them onto the boat of reasonableness to flop aroung gasping for the air of single mindedness (has this metaphore gone far enough? Yeah? Right). Use it wisely, my child.--Crestville 16:57, 14 May 2007 (UTC)[reply]

The Reel 'em In Award for deceptive kindess in the service of balanced reporting and in the face of frankly shocking levels of single-mindedness, with the end result of winning a total Wally-Brain around to our way of thinking. Crestville


Before anyone thinks this [completey illegal] award has anything to do with the wonderful Beatles' project - or any of its editors - they are mistaken. It is for something that Crestville and I talked about concerning something/someone else. egde 18:01, 14 May 2007 (UTC)[reply]

I also think it's called "Head 'em off at the pass"... egde 19:04, 14 May 2007 (UTC)

Nah, we xcaught him with "kindness" and reeled him in! sucker!--Crestville 16:59, 17 May 2007 (UTC)[reply]

Pete[edit]

Have a read of this kidda! [4] Vera, Chuck & Dave 19:27, 14 May 2007 (UTC)[reply]

I thought he might have slipped him a few quid. egde 17:00, 15 May 2007 (UTC)[reply]

And now for something completely.... the same[edit]

Whatever it will be... egde 19:23, 15 May 2007 (UTC)[reply]

Lesbian ham. Is that the same?--Crestville 16:58, 17 May 2007 (UTC)[reply]
Something completely differant--Crestville 15:59, 18 May 2007 (UTC)[reply]
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