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Hello, Avanu. You have new messages at ClueBot Commons's talk page. Message added 17:20, 5 June 2012 (UTC). You can remove this notice at any time by removing the {{Talkback}} or {{Tb}} template.
Please stop your disruptive editing. If you continue to blank out or remove portions of page content, templates or other materials from Wikipedia, as you did at General Mills, you may be blocked from editing. The criteria for inclusion on wikipedia is WP:Verifiability. You left an edit summary aying its "trivia". May i ask which wikieidia polciy disallows trivia? Pass a Methodtalk 15:53, 17 June 2012 (UTC)
First, since I left you a message about this on your talk page, it is poor form to slap a template on my page in response.
Second, the criteria for inclusion is not verifiability, verifiability is merely the baseline threshold for something if you want to include it. In other words, if you can't verify it, don't include it. "merely being true, or even verifiable, does not automatically make something suitable for inclusion in the encyclopedia"
You mention me using the word 'trivia' above, but leave off the majority of my statement which was "please show relevance to overall article or to what company does". Wikipedia:NOT#Wikipedia is not an indiscriminate collection of information,Wikipedia:Neutral point of view and WP:DUE within that. Just because you have a personal interest in the additional information does not make it due or to quote the NPOV policy, "Neutrality requires that each article or other page in the mainspace fairly represents all significant viewpoints that have been published by reliable sources, in proportion to the prominence of each viewpoint. Giving due weight and avoiding giving undue weight means that articles should not give minority views as much of, or as detailed, a description as more widely held views. Generally, the views of tiny minorities should not be included at all, except perhaps in a 'see also' about those specific views."
I've looked at your contributions and you have a habit of not only adding something into one article, but attempting to insert the same thing into a bunch of articles to try and push an overall viewpoint. As I said in the discussion I left on your Talk page, you need to be trying to avoid biased editing. If you disagree with another editor's good faith changes, take it to the Talk page, but labeling it as vandalism is not the appropriate response. Thanks. -- Avanu (talk) 16:09, 17 June 2012 (UTC)
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Sunday will arrive
Hi Avanu. I got impressed for the polemic produced in that debate, and seemed very, very unlikely the deletion of the article. In cases like that is it not obvious that the article should be kept? How is possible one admin taking that final decision? It is clear that a neutral committee should decide that. It seems pretty much a contestable act over there, therefore a clear case to the Deletion review. My main problem is finding time to all this, however I will be there if you or some else do the request. By the way, thanks for your comprehensive vision, you really understood the reality and knew how to deal correctly with the facts and editors. Excalibursword (talk) 14:44, 26 June 2012 (UTC)
Sometimes it just goes that way. I don't think the Delete people made a good case, but it won for today. I suppose it could be appealed, but I think it will just be a repeat of the same. -- Avanu (talk) 14:52, 26 June 2012 (UTC)
As said before. Barnstars are interesting, but a more useful tool to you. Sometimes the fight is more important than the victory or defeat.Excalibursword (talk) 17:08, 26 June 2012 (UTC)
May I ask you your assistance? Your impressions about this would very appreciated. Excalibursword (talk) 16:18, 28 June 2012 (UTC)
SarekOfVulcan
You seem to have a problem with SarekofVulcan's use of tools. Have you considered an attempt to recall them? The criteria are at User:SarekOfVulcan/Recall criteria. - Jorgath (talk) (contribs) 07:04, 27 June 2012 (UTC)
Avanu knows that link already, because I pointed it out to him two days ago. --SarekOfVulcan (talk) 12:19, 27 June 2012 (UTC)
All right, good. I personally don't think you need to be recalled, although I'm not 100% pleased with your actions, but I wanted to make sure he knew the option existed. - Jorgath (talk) (contribs) 12:25, 27 June 2012 (UTC)
To be clear, I have no problem with an administrator using the 'tools', as long as they are polite and considerate when they use them. I found Sarek's curt reply the other day when he posted that link to be a little disingenuous considering how unbelievably specific and complex the process is at that link. I am certain that there is a lot that Sarek does which is helpful and constructive toward the encyclopedia, but unfortunately I see rash or abrupt actions from him far too frequently. I know that he knows about this, because its been said to him by various editors time and again, and I hope he sincerely wants to improve. Personally, my ire is raised more than anything else by a person in authority behaving in a less than considerate way when the other person can't do anything to protect themselves. While Sceptre isn't blameless in this recent thing, Sarek should have taken some steps to make sure he communicated things clearly to Sceptre before just resorting to punitive actions. -- Avanu (talk) 13:54, 27 June 2012 (UTC)
Something like a recurring yearly 'continuing education' for Admins would be great if it could be shown that it helps. Dealing with burnout, how to handle conflict, easier methods for complicated stuff, whatever is needed. As for being an admin for perpetuity, I'm conflicted on this. I read Jimmy Wales rationale on this a while back. He said 'why remove a good admin if they've done nothing wrong?' And if an admin is doing well, that rationale seems reasonable. After all, they are just volunteers. However, if the expectation is that an admin will be time-limited, then it seems like they have no expectation of anything else and will just serve out their term and move back into regular joe status without a problem. The other side of the problem is the massively hideous Request for Adminship and the Admin Review processes. Its simply a horrible shoutfest of all the negative things a person might have ever done. Despite my occasional disdain for Sarek, I would hope that the day he retires, we congratulate him and thank him for his service. This is something that every volunteer deserves. So the current candidacy and review is a mess, and these admins serve for life. All in all, I think some form of time-limited service would simply make this all less problematic and a big emphasis on civil treatment during those processes would help.
As I write this, I also realize that I was pretty harsh with Sarek yesterday in my comment (at AN/I). I'll stand by the substance in my critique, but I feel that I was wrong in the way I presented it. My apologies to Sarek for the tone and language. -- Avanu (talk) 15:25, 27 June 2012 (UTC)
Accepted, of course. Had you left it at "He simply amps up the conflict instead of working to resolve problems. Sceptre didn't need to be kicked while down" in the first place, I wouldn't have blinked twice.--SarekOfVulcan (talk) 15:39, 27 June 2012 (UTC)
And about the "complex procedure", it comes down to "if 6 editors in good standing want me to stand for recall, we run an RFC/U and I abide by what the clerk says the results are." Most of the complexities can be ignored. --SarekOfVulcan (talk) 15:46, 27 June 2012 (UTC)
something similar
You recently had interactions with Obotlig at an AFD [1] where you stated "Calling people trolls for asking for a reasonable argument isn't civil." I have a similar incident with the same editor calling me a troll, which I have brought to Wikipedia:Wikiquette_assistance#Obotlig. Please share your opinions there. DreamFocus 16:03, 1 July 2012 (UTC)
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No hard feelings
I'm aware I take a harder, bright-line approach to COI editing than some other admins do; and it's not a bad idea to keep me reminded that my stance is a smidgen controversial in some circles. --Orange Mike | Talk 12:06, 5 July 2012 (UTC)
Well, I jumped up and yelled 'fire' a little too quickly as well. I think I learned to think just a little harder after this and I appreciate that you're being as on top of things as you are. You take care of a lot and I appreciate your effort. Wish you well. -- Avanu (talk) 12:09, 5 July 2012 (UTC)
It is simple: do not do it. Fifelfoo (talk) 00:21, 6 July 2012 (UTC)
No one did. Your comments were not on topic, and were not relevant to a standards-based discussion on the topic as given. Collapsing or Hatting off-topic material in a discussion is perfectly in line with Talk Page guidelines. -- Avanu (talk) 00:27, 6 July 2012 (UTC)
Thanks for the reference to the point. I read it. It is about applying rules you hate on other editors, in order to make them hate them too. I don't think I did that.
Additionally the example I gave there is not far fetched/made up, it is a real story although the names and places has been alter to protect the identities of the characters, and in order to address the problem in a generic form. --Nenpog (talk) 20:40, 7 July 2012 (UTC)
"As a rule, one engaging in "POINTY" behavior is making edits which he or she does not really agree with, for the purpose of discrediting a policy or interpretation thereof."WP:NOTPOINTY - and I didn't make an edit that I don't agree with. --Nenpog (talk) 20:46, 7 July 2012 (UTC)
WQA
Hi, IRWolfie closed the discussion with a decision of no incivility on the part of Guy. I think he is wrong.
Latest diff from guy and recent comments at WQA indicate that he is going to continue to follow me, and to bias reply against me.
BTW, I don't think that I was forum shopping. I talked at talk x-ray computed tomography, we had a content dispute, we went to the DRN, I have reasons to suspect COI (not just because people didn't agree with me), and I asked people to declare it in accordance with the COI guideline, I was told to go to the COIN to discuss COIs, I did, the discussion was closed by a volunteer, afterwards an other volunteer at the talk page wrote, that it was closed because it was only a discussion and not an accusation. It was only a discussion, since I didn't want to make accusations because the COI guideline instruct to discuss first and try to reach agreement. Guy exploded at the COIN thinking that I am accusing him, but I didn't accuse anyone there. Then I asked at the COIN talk page why the discussion was closed, since the header said that the COIN is for advice as well. Guy added his disclaimer there, and IRWolfie- collapsed the discussion, before I received an answer from a volunteer at the COIN. At the MEDRS talk page there was a discussion about the medrs rules being too complex, and serving commercial interests, and I vented there that I agreed, and mentioned my case as proof that something is wrong with the rules. At the NPOV there was a post before me from someone who criticized the undue weight policy, and also the interpretation of due weight at that thread seemed different than what I saw before, and I joined the discussion in order to clarify my own understanding, and I found out that I didn't understand before, because I took due weight literally, and because other editors use that term in a way that suggest a different meaning than what it really is. At the NOR I have started long ago a generic discussion about if simple logic is a synth, I didn't mention my case, but someone else knew about it and bothered to point it out to everyone. I wanted to discuss if simple logic is a synth generically but the other participants refused.
WP:FORUMSHOP state that forum shop is raising essentially the same issue on multiple noticeboards, or to multiple administrators. From these four places only the DRN is a noticeboard/administrator. So there wasn't going to multiple noticeboards/administrators. I hope that going to the DRN for a content dispute is not considered forum shopping. The other places were talk pages, and in any case in any of the four locations different issues were discussed - determining the reason the COIN didn't give advice about possible COIs - expressing opinion about the rules of MEDRS - how is due weight determined - is simple logic a SYNTH. I hope it is clear that these are not essentially the same issue, these questions may have arise due to the same issue, but they are not the same issue.
In my opinion, even if someone is forumshoping, the issue should be first determined at some talk page maybe a WQA, and in any case following around and inserting off topic messages to discussions is not civil. For some reasons a few other participants seems to think that Guy's actions were not uncivil. --Nenpog (talk) 01:56, 7 July 2012 (UTC)
I would suggest that you take a breather from that article that is causing Guy Macon to label you as a forum shopper. Perhaps a week, perhaps longer. The reason I suggest this rather than continue bumping against Guy in one forum after another, is that if you give this time to cool off, you can think about the approach, and if you revisit this after some time has passed, it will be less likely that Guy will be able to claim forum shopping on your part. You might also see that there is a different approach to accomplishing some of what you might want or you might gain a different perspective on what your fellow editors are saying. If you have patience with this, and if Guy continues to follow you even after that patience has been demonstrated, I think you would have a stronger reason to claim that his actions are unwarranted. However, it may also give him time to reconsider his approach to dealing with you if he sees your patience and willingness to work through process, even if it means it takes longer. -- Avanu (talk) 03:29, 7 July 2012 (UTC)
Thanks for your advice. I will consider it. I am not sure if I understand why taking a time off would help to convenience anyone that I am not forumshopping. --Nenpog (talk) 09:19, 7 July 2012 (UTC)
If he revisits the same issue again after "after some time has passed" it will still be forum shopping. IRWolfie- (talk) 12:49, 7 July 2012 (UTC)
Avanu, this comment by IRWolfie contribute to my lack of understanding expressed above. --Nenpog (talk) 13:12, 7 July 2012 (UTC)
He had several admins and an arbcom member telling him to drop the COI issue, I think that's enough to say maybe it's time to work on something else. IRWolfie- (talk) 12:49, 7 July 2012 (UTC)
A DRN volunteer told me to take the COI discussion to the coin see diff. --Nenpog (talk) 13:12, 7 July 2012 (UTC)
Nenpog has already taken the same dispute to DRN, NOR, NPOV, COIN, COIN talk, 2 x IRC etc (he raised essentially the same issue in every place). the editor has also been blocked previously for edit warring in this topic: [2]. IRWolfie- (talk) 12:49, 7 July 2012 (UTC)
This is just false. I have already wrote about DRN, NOR talk, NPOV talk, COIN, and COIN talk above. IRC doesn't count for anything IMHO. I wonder if talk pages count, as the WP:FORUMSHOPPING is about noticeboards not talk pages, and in any case different matters were discussed in each. --Nenpog (talk) 13:12, 7 July 2012 (UTC)
I guess the point is, lots of time, or novel arguments can deter a claim of forumshopping. If you are putting the same debate into multiple places and doing so very very sequentially, it can appear to be forumshopping. There is an escalation process on Wikipedia, and sometimes this can be also construed as forumshopping. The thing is, I don't want to be discouraging, not encouraging with these suggestions. The debate on the X-Ray stuff is something that seems highly technical and for whatever reason, your fellow editors initially didn't agree with the way that you wanted to include the material. You could adjust the presentation of it, give it a different tone, attempt to start an article that covers it exclusively, find an article where it is a better fit, you could sum up what you want to add and ask other editors for help to determine how it might be rephrased or retooled to be bit for inclusion in some article, etc. Often if you simply come in with a very humble request that you believe something is important and you would like help, there will be some people who will be helpful. Of course there are some negative people too, but that's life. The other alternative, for now, is simply let it go, work on some other stuff for a while, and revisit this later. Fresh minds, fresh editors after a few months, and you might see a different outcome. But there are plenty of alternatives here, just try your best to avoid doing things that seem to violate policy. -- Avanu (talk) 16:22, 7 July 2012 (UTC)
Now Guy, and IRWolfie came to my talk page to accuse me of edit warring, and Guy threatened to block me, see diff. What really happened was that some editor added something, and Yobol reverted it with a wrong explanation, I reverted and wrote that the explanation is wrong for that revert, Yobol reverted again and discussed at the talk page, I discussed, doc james discussed, some other editor discussed, it seemed like there was a consensus for the edit with minor changes, and then the original other editor rewrote his edit and added it to the article. Is that edit warring? --Nenpog (talk) 18:11, 7 July 2012 (UTC)
After reading that, it feels as if Guy might have been reflexively commenting. I would just explain pretty much what you just said, and that the other editors and yourself came to a fine conclusion, and leave it at that. -- Avanu (talk) 18:15, 7 July 2012 (UTC)
I admit that I did not double check to confirm that the edit warring actually occurred (No doubt Nenpog is going to shout GOTCHA!!! and quote part of this sentence out of context as he has done so many times before). All I know is this; I saw a warning about edit warring. I then saw Nenpog giving a completely bogus answer that showed zero understanding of WP:BRD, then I saw him rejecting all efforts to correct him (I don't think Nenpog has ever changed his mind on anything based upon other editors trying to explain where his thinking went wrong - he appears to be completely ineducable) So I told him what would happen if he edit warred again.
The foolowing is pure opinion; take it for what it is worth. Avanu, you might want to look at the bigger picture here. You have had your share of conflicts on Wikipedia, but as I see it, they are always the sort of things where even if I disagree, I can see that you have a valid point and have put some thinking behind your position. Nenpog isn't like you. Where you give intelligent responses and clearly have a good-faith desire to do what is best for the encyclopedia, Nenpog only works toward demonizing CT scans and attacking anyone who gets in his way. By giving him any sort of encouragement, IMO you are inadvertently making the problem worse. You also see problems in the responses to Nenpog, which is a good thing (I have paid attention to your criticism of me, and some of it hit home). Alas, while that criticism is good for folks like me, it is bad for Nenpog. It only encourages more misbehavior. Please consider taking a bit of a firmer stance against Nenpog being disruptive and please consider correcting those who you see reacting badly to Nenpog being disruptive on their user talk pages rather than in discussions with Nenpog. --Guy Macon (talk) 19:39, 7 July 2012 (UTC)
That's actually occured to me.... how to stay encouraging in one way, without contributing to making things worse. I think it is a very valid point, which is why I think I'll go ahead and stop contributing quite so much to this thread. I want every editor to feel that they are able to do what they feel is right, but unfortunately what each of us thinks is right at a certain time might not always be helpful. @Nenpog, if you're reading this, keep in mind that things aren't just a one-way street. Your actions get a response, and if you keep getting a certain response that you don't like, try something different, or try just avoiding the thing entirely. Good luck. -- Avanu (talk) 19:54, 7 July 2012 (UTC)
Note that edit warring did take place, reverting the revert of bold content is edit warring, this should instead be taken to the talk page. Nenpog also encouraged another editor to continue the edit war (see my comment on his page). IRWolfie- (talk) 11:59, 8 July 2012 (UTC)
It was taken to the talk page. At the time of the reverts, there was a standing discussion about the same topic with the same editor, which that editor has completely ignored for a long time. --Nenpog (talk) 12:32, 8 July 2012 (UTC)
Lest anyone misunderstand, the reason that I did not bother to check is because I have never -- not once -- seen IRWolfie post anything that is not true, and I have seen Nenpog be deceitful on multiple occasions. Thus, when Nenpog added his latest false accusation to his long list of previous false accusations, I ignored it. W.O.M.B.A.T: Waste Of Money, Brains, And Time. --Guy Macon (talk) 16:02, 8 July 2012 (UTC)
Mauch Chunk Switchback Railway dispute
I am halfway through reading the AN/I report and felt compelled to thank you for your calm words there.--Jimbo Wales (talk) 23:39, 16 July 2012 (UTC)
Thanks for your compliment. It is nice to see that you peek in on that as well. -- Avanu (talk) 23:49, 16 July 2012 (UTC)
Thanks for being gracious. I was cranky and came down a bit hard on you on Jimmy's talk page. It's been a very frustrating situation to watch, I know the dispute resolution process is likely to suck up energy and time I don't have, and the endless friction without a positive resolution is just very dispiriting. Choess (talk) 01:37, 17 July 2012 (UTC)
I think a bunch of the problem is simply people straying off track into personalities. doncram seems to dislike feeling persecuted, and if the arguments stayed impersonal and 'strictly business', I think we might see a better result. -- Avanu (talk) 01:39, 17 July 2012 (UTC)
Indeed. If he'd address the content issues instead of complaining about the reporters, we'd be getting through things a lot faster. The other day, he was doing an article about an architect who worked on a lot of Carnegie Libraries, and I found a ref that mentioned he was Carnegie's brother in law. I dropped a note to Doncram, thinking he'd be interested: his response was Sarek, I don't welcome your commenting on my Talk page and I don't welcome your following my contributions closely, as you started to do today. In the past, what seemed like friendly interactions devolved into edit conflicts, "gotcha" claims, repeated confrontation, and wikihounding. --SarekOfVulcan (talk) 02:06, 17 July 2012 (UTC)
If you'll recall, many months back, you raised my ire, and just recently I let the memory of that poke me into an uncivil response with you. I've decided that you're a great guy, a little bit on the pokey-stick side of things, but you have a earnest desire to do what is right. In other words, I let bygones be. You and Doncram have a ways to go on getting to such a point, and while it seems he's antagonized a lot of folks, I don't see him as beyond hope, just someone who needs a certain type of patience that not all of us have. If he says 'don't post on my page', let it be, and stick to good arguments on the articles. It is annoying to have people cast us out of their page, in fact, I did unequivocally say that to you once, but I don't feel that way now. And I don't intend to let it be a problem again. But I had to change my mindset on you before that could happen, and I had to realize that my actions were getting in the way of you and I being able to work together as colleagues. I wish you the best, and I hope that all of us can work toward welcoming all of doncram's contributions and guiding him in a more positive way. -- Avanu (talk) 02:19, 17 July 2012 (UTC)
I've asked Dennis Brown on ANI to try to resolve the issues, since I barely know him, and I'm pretty sure he hasn't previously been involved with any of the go-rounds before. He's agreeable, and plans to check in tomorrow to see if everyone will buy in to a nice structured discussion. Maybe this is what we need... --SarekOfVulcan (talk) 02:23, 17 July 2012 (UTC)
Newts
References to Python are always good. You were turned into a newt, and got better. :) Alas, Mr. Figley was not so lucky. :( ←Baseball BugsWhat's up, Doc?carrots→ 00:29, 17 July 2012 (UTC)
I maintain to this day that he was turned into a Knute, and never really got better. Check out the costume Palin's wearing in that scene... --SarekOfVulcan (talk) 02:24, 17 July 2012 (UTC)
Some bubble tea for you!
Never too late to try to get things on a better footing... Is strawberry ok? SarekOfVulcan (talk) 02:25, 17 July 2012 (UTC)
Why thank you much. Strawberry is excellent. -- Avanu (talk) 02:31, 17 July 2012 (UTC)
Straw poll at Shooting of Trayvon Martin
This notification is to inform you of a straw poll being conducted at the talk page of Shooting of Trayvon Martin, your comments would be welcome and appreciated on the allegations of witness #9.
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You are involved in a recently filed request for arbitration. Please review the request at Wikipedia:Arbitration/Requests#Nenpog vs. Guy Macon, Doc James, and Yobol. and, if you wish to do so, enter your statement and any other material you wish to submit to the Arbitration Committee. Additionally, the following resources may be of use—
Hi! I withdrew the RFC/U. blanked the page, and asked for deletion. This nuked a couple of your comments but I figured you would not mind. Feel free to revert if you do. Cheers! --Guy Macon (talk) 01:50, 19 July 2012 (UTC)
It is no problem whatsoever. I think Nenpog is really digging his own grave here, but like I said, I think he's said he is going to accept the ruling but is going to exhaust his appeal process first. Not my first choice, and I don't think he's being smart about this, but it is something our process provides for. -- Avanu (talk) 01:58, 19 July 2012 (UTC)
On a related note, I typed up a response to the Admin overreach / raking up muck post, then I deleted it. Then I created / deleted it twice more and decided to sleep on it. Here's the thing; every so often I see something you wrote that makes me reexamine my thinking. Even when I end up disagreeing, I find the comments to be valuable and thought provoking. In this case I really don't want Nenpog unblocked on a technicality and then instantly re-blocked -- and I think the false accusations against the doc are enough to justify a permanent ban -- but on the other hand, you make a very good point about one person going cowboy and bypassing procedures, and it was wrong to criticize you for making that point.
BTW, Nenpog has never accepted anything, and IMO he is about as likely to give up voluntarily as I am of becoming he pope. --Guy Macon (talk) 06:29, 19 July 2012 (UTC)
I look forward to you getting to ride in the Popemobile one day. And yeah, I don't see a lot of hope there, but the fact that he committed to respecting the community result made me think he would do his usual pointless debate and then be done, and hopefully turn into a productive editor. I'm not sure that will ever happen at this point. But who can say. -- Avanu (talk) 06:35, 19 July 2012 (UTC)
Reply to your comment at RfArb
I didn't feel like making the rfarb any larger, so I'm going to respond to your last comment right here. I agree that there was no emergency requiring immediate attention. I think the reason there was really no outcry against the block then is that anyone who payed attention to Nenpog is basically sick of him (with the exception of two or three people). So ignoring those three people, everyone, perhaps even the arbitrators themselves, didn't want to see Nonpog's next edit, given that his previous 400 consisted of twisting policies, ignoring complaints, and hurling accusations. My opinion, anyway, and perhaps I'm projecting. In fact, the special way that Nenpog irked me is why I entered the discussions and kept my mop away from him. Someguy1221 (talk) 07:16, 19 July 2012 (UTC)
Question: Why are the usernames different colors, usually black, some red? What's the difference? 67.59.92.60 (talk) 20:48, 19 July 2012 (UTC)
Red links are pages that don't exist. Many brand new users don't have a User Page or a User Talk Page, so those links are red and when they sign their signature, it is red, rather than blue. -- Avanu (talk) 22:56, 19 July 2012 (UTC)
Good one
I am not sure of all the issues surrounding Newton Geek [4], but in the context of that conversation -- this diff was hilarious! ---> [5]. ----- Steve Quinn (talk) 04:01, 20 July 2012 (UTC)
Thanks, I wasn't sure anyone got the joke there. :) -- Avanu (talk) 04:12, 20 July 2012 (UTC)
Comment
Hi Avanu,
I wanted to stop by because while we're about the same wiki-age, I think you may be a bit naive as some elements of the community. Reading your commentary around the bot block thread on ANI struck a cord in me in that it reminded me of the commentary that I have seen from at least a dozen similar users over the years. These were people who disagreed with admins not following the letter of policy and would show up asking where the warnings were, why the block was so long, under what section of policy it was placed, etc. While these individuals were technically correct that the action was not grounded in a specific provision of policy or performed in accordance with the explicitly defined process, people tired of their constant advocacy on behalf of users who common sense indicated were treated in an appropriate manner. The lucky ones are marginalized as gadflys and ignored. The unlucky ones pick up an enemy or two who doesn't like the hypertechnical critique and had them branded as tendentious and disruptive. This usually leads to a topic ban or a block. I say this only as advice to you that your wiki-life may be much more enjoyable if you focus on discussing users who were actually wronged through abuse and corruption and focus less on making SOP conform to POL in cases where the user still would have ended up sanctioned and no one really cares that policy wasn't followed. MBisanztalk 02:26, 22 July 2012 (UTC)
I think that is an excellent suggestion, but to me, blocking a guy who was editing productively is one of the worst things we can do. This guy didn't know any better, and he wasn't given an opportunity to change for the better. WP:BITE clearly applies, and while Johnny-on-the-spot Admins are great for getting things fixed fast, there needs to be a reasonable way to remind people of what policy actually is, not what it is thought to be. -- Avanu (talk) 02:32, 22 July 2012 (UTC)
When you've done 1,800 blocks and looked at 1,800 other blocks, you figure out that it's rarely worth it to go the mattresses over individual blocks like that. MBisanztalk 02:51, 22 July 2012 (UTC)
Hopefully this next comment won't come off as smug or something. Trust me it's there's a good point in it. There was this girl I met and asked out, and a friend of mine, more of a ladies man, had been telling me ways to help a girl feel special on a date. So, I used every technique he suggested. Of course the obvious things like opening doors, but even little things, like the way you hold her. At the end of the date, I actually didn't want to date her any more, mostly because she had cats and a *very* smelly litter box. However, I noticed something a few weeks later, and found out that she had never been treated so well on a date, and never even imagined that she was worth that. She started dressing nicer, caring for herself more, and became even more attractive and outgoing and amazing. All because someone had decided to treat her very special.
So what does this have to do with editors and Wikipedia and blocks? We never know what a small amount of thoughtfulness will do for a person. I was very surprised to see how this girl changed and became more confident and amazing, and took more control of her own life as a result of a bit of thoughfulness on my part, which in some ways was simply me trying to impress her. But when we take extra time to be nice, it isn't a waste, it is civility and humanity. If you've done 1,800 blocks, it can become very routine and very blasé, but to the extent we can, it shouldn't be. -- Avanu (talk) 03:00, 22 July 2012 (UTC)
I agree with you and that is a good story. It would be wonderful if we could give every editor the attention and support to help them grow. But in a large system like this project has become, the best we can do is to triage and try to keep things stable. That means, to me, accepting we will be impersonal and unable to support most prospective individuals and that we can only hope to develop larger support structures to those who can be handled by generic means. Also, the whole idea of consistency in handling new users, while possible under six sigma, isn't something I think we can ever hope to attain. MBisanztalk 03:12, 22 July 2012 (UTC)
Thanks. I think having some kind of leadership and training among admins would help. Let's say I go to the trouble of getting Username policy re-written, crystal clear, and it says parenthetically 'Don't block good actors, only block bad actors'. And then we still get blocks like this? What am I to do? That's actually something I did get done for the Promotional Usernames, and I didn't see that it was needed yet for the entire policy so I didn't push for it. I mean, SOP is great, but if SOP doesn't change with policy, what good is it? Honestly I think part of the problem is the technology itself. If we blocked someone like this and gave them a form that helped in the rename process and moved their User pages for them, I would be a lot less annoyed by it because it wouldn't come off quite as Bitey. But as it stands, we often end up with a person who barely understands Wikipedia in the first place, and they are probably confused and saying... what the heck did I do? And if they try again, will they get it right or get blocked again? We block and then walk away and don't really have a technical implementation that supports them in this transition. We say "you're wrong, do it right!" and leave their head spinning. If it is as simple as 'Watchubot' becoming 'Watchubawt', why not have a process where we do the rename for them? Next time they log in with Watchubot, they get redirected to a page explaining that their old username will die in XX days and they need to begin using the new one. But our current process is not so friendly and it only takes a moment to explain. If we need better technical tools, I'm all for that, but I don't like the excuses I see on AN/I that justify blocks that don't line up with policy. -- Avanu (talk) 03:21, 22 July 2012 (UTC)
I just don't think it's worth the effort. Particularly in this context. There are 284 uses of the bot username block template in user talk. Something like 5% of all accounts make under 5 edits and less than 1% make over 10 edits. Coding the technology to try and retain the three possibly useful editors out of that group wouldn't be worth the manpower. MBisanztalk 06:54, 22 July 2012 (UTC)
Being incivil/uncivil in an edit summary is still being rude
Please watch the sarcasm and dismissiveness in your edit summaries as this is being uncivil, bitey, and is just as bad as insulting someone in an edit. Please watch the sarcasm in the future. There is no need for such childish behavior. Thank you.Camelbinky (talk) 20:56, 22 July 2012 (UTC)
Which sarcasm? The 500 years thing? Or something else? -- Avanu (talk) 21:00, 22 July 2012 (UTC)
Thanks
I wanted to say thank you for keeping an eye on the various noticeboards. I often see your comments there and I'm always impressed with your levelheadedness. ~Adjwilley(talk) 01:12, 23 July 2012 (UTC)
Thanks. Its very kind of you to say. -- Avanu (talk) 01:14, 23 July 2012 (UTC)
Please stop your disruptive editing. If you continue to blank out or remove portions of page content, templates or other materials from Wikipedia, as you did at General Mills, you may be blocked from editing. The criteria for inclusion on wikipedia is WP:Verifiability. You left an edit summary aying its "trivia". May i ask which wikieidia polciy disallows trivia? Pass a Method talk 15:53, 17 June 2012 (UTC)
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