User talk:Goali

Your edits on 1961 Indian Annexation of Goa

You seem to be involved in a content dispute on the above and related articles. You also seem to have been using more than one account to revert from. I've blocked the other account, Olivença (talk · contribs), per WP:SOCK; please restrict your edits to this account only. Where you disagree on content we encourage editors to discuss their differences on the article talk page. Edit warring can result in sanctions on the warring accounts; futher blind reversions from this account will lead to it too being blocked. Please see WP:DR for dispute resolution suggestions. EyeSerene^talk 08:53, 24 February 2010 (UTC)

Thanks for your note. As you've noticed, I semiprotected the article - this doesn't prevent you from editing it with this account, but will prevent any unregistered or new editors from editing it. I made no comment on the content of either your edits or the other editor's; deciding on content is beyond my admin remit. That's for you to work out with Deepak on the article talk page or (as I linked above) using our dispute resolution channels. What I can do as an admin is enforce our edit warring and reversion policies to prevent disruption to the article; this applies to all editors, not just you.

If you don't mind some advice regarding the external links, per WP:ELNO we only really accept links that provide additional insight over and above what the article would contain if it became a featured article. That's deliberately a very high bar that excludes most types of link. Ideally, if there's relevant content in those links and they fit our definition of reliable sources, their content should be written into the article using them as sources. If they don't meet that standard, they don't belong in the article in the first place. Where different sources disagree, we provide all the information in the article with appropriate emphasis and let the reader decide (for example "According to source X, ..., however according to source Y, ..."). There should be room in this for both yours and Deepak's edits to coexist side by side. Our job isn't to write the single 'true' version but to provide a well-written distillation of all relevant reliable sources. Hope this helps, EyeSerene^talk 08:44, 25 February 2010 (UTC)

Re your message

My apologies for taking some time to reply. Your suggestion does sound interesting, but unfortunately we can only accept information that's been published in reliable secondary sources; writing from personal knowledge or primary sources is not really permitted (see WP:V for why). Being an encyclopedia we follow, we don't lead. It's a shame, as I don't doubt your Naval officer has some fascinating tales to tell.

Also unfortunately, I see no-one has commented yet on the article talk page. I might cross-post it to other Milhist project task forces to see if that gets a faster response; I can try the South Asian military history task force for one. I'm afraid Portugal doesn't have a dedicated task force as we don't seem to have many editors working in that area, but hopefully this will improve in the future. By the way, if you're interested in working on military history articles, you are very welcome to sign up with the project (more information here). All the best, EyeSerene^talk 21:30, 4 March 2010 (UTC)

War Edition at Dili

Users J. Patrick Fischer (talk) Merbabu (talk) and Darwinius (talk) are removing systematically the symbols of the city alleging they are not used anymore. The problem is that they doesn´t quote any relevant source to remove the symbols and prove they are not used anymore, despite there´s a law supporting them. I gave the data, he is disputing it, just for personal taste. Domaleixo (talk) —Preceding unsigned comment added by 189.41.242.19 (talk) 14:22, 21 March 2010 (UTC)

Integration of Goans in India

India is a completely multicultural country - very unlike Portugal. So the topic of 'integration' does not arise here. In the absence of a homogenous culture to identify with, the idea of culture and ethnicity takes a backseat in an individual's outlook towards politics, business and professional life. In Bombay, for instance, you have as many Maharashtrians as there are Tamils, Punjabis, Malayalees and Gujratis in any workplace, which makes an individual's particular cultural and ethnic identity completely irrelevant.

Have Goans made a mark in India? They sure have.

The commander of the Indian Air Force squaddrons that participated in the invasion of Goa was Elric Pinto... a Goan.

The famous Punjab Khalistan militancy issue in the eighties was resolved by police chief Julio Ribeiro, a Goan who had served earlier as police chief of Bombay

Gen Sunit Francis Rodrigues of Curtorim was former chief of staff in the Indian Army

Three Goans have risen to the highest post in the Indian Air Force, that of Air Marshal - Air Chief Marshal H Mulgaonkar, Air Marshal Loretto Pereira & Air Marshal Terence Joseph de Sá

Caejetan Joseph Vincent Miranda of Loutolim was director of the Anti-Corruption Bureau

John Lobo was Director of the CBI (India's version of the FBI) from 1977-79.

Justice Gurudas Datta Kamat was the first Goan to be appointed Chief Justice of India.

Manuel Menezes was Chairman of the mammoth Indian Railways.

Avadhuth Kakodkar was India's ambassador to Brazil, Portugal, Mozambique, Venezuela and Finland.

Placido D'Souza was India's ambassador to Panama, Zaire, Port of Spain, Hong Kong and Kenya

Politically, Goans in India are as 'Indian' as anyone else, and like any other Indian, they have no trouble whatsoever carrying their cultural distinctiveness in a seperate bag from their political identity. Tigerassault (talk) 21:29, 27 September 2010 (UTC)

What did Goa gain from being part of India instead of Portugal?

Under Portugal, Goa was officially deemed as a metropolitan province, but was treated in line with the defunct 1930 Colonial Act. Under the Portuguese, Goa stayed a feudal society.... a handful of elite Portuguese speaking families in tight with the local Portuguese government, who owned most of the land and ruled over the larger majority of the population who lived a hand to mouuth existence toiling in manual labour. Higher education was limited to the Goa Medical College, or an expensive trip to Lisbon to learn Engineering or Law, and careers were limited to agriculture, agriculture and mostly agriculture - largely in the role of field labour, unless you owned the field.

Besides democracy and freedom, India gave Goa something far more valuable: Opportunity. Colleges and Universities were set up that gave even the son of a sewage scavenger the chance to choose any professional career that suited him - Eningeering, architecture, art, law, commerce... it was no longer something reserved only for the monied gentry. Economically, Goa grew from agriculture, mining and some canning to manufacturing, trade, tourism, and much more giving Goans opportunities that they never could have even dreamed off in the Estado. The few hoarse voices that you hear even today lamenting the liberation of Goa - you will notice - come exclusively from that small intimate group of elite Goan landowners (rich because they were the first to convert in the 16th century) who lost their automatic privileges in 1961, and found themselves having to make an effort of it like everyone else.Tigerassault (talk) 17:04, 29 September 2010 (UTC)

Goans who opted for Portugal, a reply to Tigerassault

Regarding India’s invasion of Goa as an occasion for greater opportunity to all Goans is relative to Indian society at best, especially when we compare the opportunities available to the majority of Indians (even today, let alone in 1961), with its poverty, ethnic castes and pre-arranged marriages with Portuguese society (both current and in its colonial past), where despite many inequalities and problems, social mobility and interracial mixture was more the rule than the exception.

Portugal has always been at the forefront of global interchange, and is the only European nation which can boast an East Asian descendent for its capital´s mayor (António Costa, mayor of Lisbon and son of the founder of the Goan Communist Party) and previously Minister of Justice, an Asian as Minister of Education in the early 1990’s (Roberto Carneiro), a Goan descendant is currently chairman for its largest company (Zienal Bava at Portugal Telecom), the founders and owners of the Mirpuri Group, the Dancake food group, various members of parliament since the 1974 revolution in all specters of the political scene, journalists, engineers, architects, lawyers, doctors, all professions, but also during the dictatorship and before that with influential families such as the Barahona’s in the 18th Century.

The Goans who opted for Portugal were not mainly rich landowners or wealthy families as you mention, in fact, most Goans integrated in Portuguese society today come from the middle classes. None comment the lack of opportunity provided by the Portuguese during their past in Goa, just the isolation caused by India’s aggressive policy towards the territory.

It's curious that just this week the Champalimaud Foundation was inaugurated in Lisbon, and the project was commissioned to the Indian architect Charles Correa, a Goan descendent himself who made interesting references to Portugal's voyages to India.

The truth is that the Portuguese left a lasting impression on Goa’s culture and landscape, from the social habits, religion and old monuments to its airport, harbour and public buildings, Goa is definitely different from the rest of India, and this is enrichening and of course is in great part due to Portugal’s 500 year presence.Goali (talk) 08:56, 8 October 2010 (UTC)08:55, 8 October 2010 (UTC)Goali

Response from a man in the field

After 1961, the Portuguese government offered automatic passports for any Goan who wanted them. Unfortunately (and quite surprising, considering your argument) there was hardly a stampede for Portuguese nationality in Goa.

If the (few)'middle class Goans' who opted for Portugal did not have much to complain about in Portuguese India, it goes to show that they were the privileged elite. They were a minority. A majority of Goans were surpressed and denied opportunity by the Portuguese in Goa, and they were 'liberated' when India came in (and they did not line up for Portuguese passports after 1961). We have nothing at all against those Goans who opted for Portugal.... they were just staying with what they were most comfortable with. I myself am most comfortable with my adopted hometown, and while i do visit Goa, I certainly do not consider it home.

No doubt that Portugal is an exceptionally developed nation. Unfortunately, none of this ever trickled down to Goa, Timor or Mozambique. Even in the 50s, Portugal was a reasonably developed nation while Goa was mostly paddy fields - unelectrified, illiterate, and as miserable as the rest of India was back then. The idea that Goa was part of 'Portugal Metropole' was only on paper - an argument for politicians to bandy about. Face it: The Portuguese cared a hoot for Goa.

BTW, when you speak of 'poverty, ethnic castes and pre-arranged marriages' (pre-arranged marriages???) as India's definitive problems, then you obviously know little of what India faces today. And don't compare India with Portugal on HDI. India is a vast, vast federation of nations, with a billion plus population. Portugal is in a different category altogether. Tigerassault (talk) 07:34, 9 October 2010 (UTC)

Charles Correa is a very good architect, although he is poor at detailing, and tends not to experiment too much. he has built much in India and abroad, including quite a lot in post liberation Goa.... including the famous Kala Academy at Campal, Panjim which is now the venue of the Goa International Film Festival. Another Indian architect, Raj Rewal, designed the Ismaili Centre at Lisbon which was inaugurated on 11 July 1998 by President Jorge Sampaio. See [1]Tigerassault (talk) 07:47, 9 October 2010 (UTC)

You have been reading a lot of portuguese POV articles. Now take time out and read some other articles. Start with ths one by a Jesuit historian in Goa on the involvement of the catholic church and Goan Catholic commuinity in the whole affair. http://www.goacom.com/culture/history/church.html Tigerassault (talk) 12:34, 9 October 2010 (UTC)

Portuguese citizenship is automatically available to GOANS, or Indo-Portuguese if you prefer (i.e. from Diu or Damão also). Indians are not entitled to Portuguese citizenship, but curiously many have tried to aquire it illegally since Goa's "liberation". More information at:

http://www.goacom.com/passport.htm

http://www.colaco.net/1/EUrightsForPortGoans.htmGoali (talk) 08:24, 12 October 2010 (UTC)

Not too many Goans applied for Portuguese citizenship after 1961.... the real rush took place in the eighties when the EU was formed.... since a Portuguese passport gave free access to the economic opportunities in the UK. Thats also when a lot of non-Goans attempted to cash in by falsely representing themselves as Goan to gain access England. Maybe one should ask all those Goans in Goa why they didn't leave their homes and migrate to Portugual when they had the chance. Tigerassault (talk) 06:12, 16 October 2010 (UTC)

In Portugal Goan's don't receive a different status from any other Portuguese, so I don't know how you arrive at that conclusion.

According to the Indian newspaper "The Hindu" of August 3rd, 2009 [[ http://www.hindu.com/2001/04/22/stories/1322106l.htm ]], there are 80 000 to 100 000 Goans living in Portugal, considering Goa's population or Portugal's for that matter, and the 8000kms seperating the two territories, that's a high number. Moreover, that figure doesn't include Goans with Portuguese citizenship residing outside Portugal and which are hard to account for because they have the same status as any Portuguese citizen.Goali (talk) 10:34, 17 October 2010 (UTC)

The Hindu Article

uhh..... read the whole article. It says

"The Goans who originally came to Portugal as far back as the 18th century were the elite. They studied in Portugal to become priests or civil servants. Some also entered other respected professions. Many Goans went to the other colonies of Portugal in southwest Africa. There are now more than two or three generations of families of Goan origin living in Portugal. The total number is unknown: estimates range from 80 to 100,000 Portugese of Goan origin."

You will know that the number of Goans who moved to Portugal after 1961 is minuscle. On a parallel note, there about a 100,000 Goans living in Bombay itself.Tigerassault (talk) 13:03, 17 October 2010 (UTC)

How the Goans in Portugal reached there

This is extracted from the website of the Indian embassy to Portugal. at [2]

a) A portion of ethic Indian Goans, who formed the elite in Goa , migrated to Portugal after Goa was liberated in1961.This class of Goans did not encounter much problem in getting assimilated in the new socio-economic structure by virtue of their strengths.

b) After the withdrawal of the Portuguese from Mozambique a sizeable number of Goans came over to Portugal. These people had been manning various beauracratic posts in Mozambique.

The latest stream of migrants from Goa started coming to Portugal in 1990’s.This, however, is not to suggest that people did not migrate in the period between 1960-1980’s. These are mostly educated youths, kith and kin of persons who were once Portuguese subjects, aspiring for better economic opportunities and standard of living. The opening up of Portuguese Consulate in Goa in1991 facilitated this movement and in turn made it more organized. It is worthwhile to note that accepting people on the basis of State - relations that once existed is unparalleled in the history or working of any Colonial power in the World.

Tigerassault (talk) 13:13, 17 October 2010 (UTC)

Why do so many Goans live outside of Goa? When did they leave Goa, and why?

I shall quote from the article by CB Brettel at [3]

The Colonial Act of May 1930, promulgated by Salazar, “confirmed the existence of an historical and essential role to possess, civilize and colonize the overseas territories”. It was part of a clear imperialist vision on Salazar’s part.

Goans lost many of the rights they had enjoyed under the First Republic and became second-class citizens. In Goa there were objections to this Act and the freedom movement gained new momentum. Luis Menezes de Bragança, the founder and publisher of an important newspaper in Goa, O Heraldo, labeled the Colonial Act an affront to the rights of Goans,

In the ensuing years, the population of Goa declined as people emigrated to other parts of India, Asia, and to Africa.

(TG:Which is why there are so many Goans living in so many places all over the world today. Most of them fled Goa during Portuguese rule. After 1961, only a small elite class migrated to Portugal)Tigerassault (talk) 13:36, 17 October 2010 (UTC)

Many Goans left when India started getting hostile with the Portuguese territories in the subcontinent, blocking trade and making life difficult in Goa.

By the time of invasion, many had already left for Moçambique, Portugal or other Portuguese (and British) possessions. Following the invasion, most Goans tended to integrate into India and a few emigrated to Portugal and elsewhere.Goali (talk) 00:34, 21 October 2010 (UTC)

Talk:1961 Indian Annexation of Goa

May I, gently, remind you that this is an encyclopedia building project. The general idea is to work toward including good quality, peer-reviewed, information in the article. If you have a particularly great analysis about comparative history, you should consider writing it up, submitting it to a good peer-reviewed journal, waiting for it to be accepted and published, and then bringing that analysis up repeatedly in the article talk page. Attempting to present your original analysis there is a waste of time, for everyone involved. Article talk pages are not meant to be platforms for airing personal views. Repeatedly presenting a personal point of view, especially if that is the only point of view you are advancing on wikipedia is considered to be tendentious editing and an editor can be blocked for that. Thanks. --RegentsPark (talk) 15:32, 8 October 2010 (UTC)

From an analysis of your talk pages and discussion comments you must be referring to yourself, Bsc09, Shovon, Deepak D'Souza, Zuggernaut, and Tigerass. no?

Goali (talk) 14:19, 13 October 2010 (UTC)

Think what you will. Looking at the talk page it is fairly obvious that every other editor is trying to figure out how to improve the encyclopedia while your main interest seems to be pushing a particular point of view and soapboxing. Neither of those are welcome on wikipedia and you'll only end up getting blocked or banned. --RegentsPark (talk) 15:54, 14 October 2010 (UTC)

Sorry Regent Park, Tigerassault & fellow "Liberators", but I'm Free to Disagree...

What do you consider of these recent posts in a Goan blog? http://nizgoenkar.blogspot.com/2010/08/goan-liberation-were-goans-truly.html Despite your different POV, and you may have some valid points in your opposing arguments, yet the "liberation" issue seems to be far from resolved in Goa. If what you really want is liberty, accepting opinions that differ from your own might be helpful for starters.Goali (talk) 10:01, 10 October 2010 (UTC)

Ummm... no... Wikipedia is not a place to air opinions. No way.Tigerassault (talk) 12:53, 10 October 2010 (UTC)

You are certainly free to disagree. But, you are not free to repeatedly air that disagreement on wikipedia. Wikipedia is neither a forum for advancing your own views, nor is it a social network where we can chat about this point or that. We are here to build an encyclopedia. --RegentsPark (talk) 12:59, 10 October 2010 (UTC)

Interesting panel of well rounded encyclopedia builders indeed, keep up the monopoly, "liberating" all who don't coincide with your POV's!Goali (talk) 17:14, 10 October 2010 (UTC)

You are welcome to come back with reliable sources that support your viewpoint. In the meantime, consider this a formal warning that you will be blocked if you continue to tendentiously discuss your original research in the 1961 Annexation of Goa article. Regards. --RegentsPark (talk) 03:36, 11 October 2010 (UTC)

Are you implying encyclopedia building by intimidation? The sources used have been quite reliable, so I suggest you verify the reliable sources noticeboard. All the best.Goali (talk) 14:09, 13 October 2010 (UTC)

What sources Goali? The last asources you provided were (a) a rabidly anti-Indian Human rights report about excesses in Kashmir in 2008, a report about women's rights in Goa in 1980 onwards, and another report about the Goa police in 2006. Then there is a blog by some catholic ranting against Goan Hindus. I'm not even sure how these sources have any connection at all to an article about Goa 1961 - unless, of course, your intention is to bash India as best as you can. Tigerassault (talk) 06:06, 16 October 2010 (UTC)

The sources provided were either neutral (Human Rights Watch), Indian (the document regarding corruption, violence and religious-based problems of the Indian police in Goa) or Goan (blogs by native Goans).

The intent is to also address post-1961 problems brought about by the Indian invasion and annexation of Goa, namely corruption, religious conflict, women's and children's rights, etc. besides all of the information particpants like you and many others have already provided.

Considering the proposal of dividing the article in three, with a section for the Post-1961 situation, it makes sense that current issues which didn't exist under Portuguese rule (and which the current article doesn't reveal) be addressed. Regarding pre-invasion administration there were other problems which are already dealt with in the article and constantly reiterated by participants like yourself.Goali (talk) 10:16, 17 October 2010 (UTC)

What in heaven's name do women's rights in Goa in 2006 have to do with an article about the Goan Conflict in 1961???? Please go and put that in an article like Goa or create a new article called Problems in Goa or something.

Of course, you will be hard pressed to prove that any of Goa's problems today have anything to do with Portuguese rule or with a seccessionist sentiment. Goans generally agree that all the problems facing Goa today were brought in by the actions or inactions of the local government that they themselves elected. India didn't have much to do with it... Goans would've fucked themselves as much if they had self rule under the Portuguese, as they did with self rule under the Indians. Tigerassault (talk) 12:51, 17 October 2010 (UTC)

Civility please Tigerass., I would appreciate you control your vocabulary while advancing your opinions and views.Goali (talk) 00:37, 21 October 2010 (UTC)

Anti Christian Comments on Goa 1961 page

The Vatican response passage in 1961 Indian annexation of Goa is taken (almost verbatim) from the published articles of a Portugal based Jesuit historian, also a noted academic in Lisbon.

Yet you call it 'Anti-Christian' and 'Indian nationalist'.

Are you sure you aren't trying to aggravate people? Go read WP:TROLL

Tigerassault (talk) 15:02, 27 February 2011 (UTC)

Europe 10,000 Challenge invite

Hi. The Wikipedia:WikiProject Europe/The 10,000 Challenge has recently started, based on the UK/Ireland Wikipedia:The 10,000 Challenge. The idea is not to record every minor edit, but to create a momentum to motivate editors to produce good content improvements and creations and inspire people to work on more countries than they might otherwise work on. There's also the possibility of establishing smaller country or regional challenges for places like Germany, Italy, the Benelux countries, Iberian Peninsula, Romania, Slovenia etc, much like Wikipedia:The 1000 Challenge (Nordic). For this to really work we need diversity and exciting content and editors from a broad range of countries regularly contributing. If you would like to see masses of articles being improved for Europe and your specialist country like Wikipedia:WikiProject Africa/The Africa Destubathon, sign up today and once the challenge starts a contest can be organized. This is a way we can target every country of Europe, and steadily vastly improve the encyclopedia. We need numbers to make this work so consider signing up as a participant and also sign under any country sub challenge on the page that you might contribute to! Thank you. --Ser Amantio di Nicolao^{Che dicono a Signa?}_{Lo dicono a Signa.} 08:56, 6 November 2016 (UTC)