User talk:Jakub Szymański

Welcome![edit]

Hello, Jakub Szymański, and welcome to Wikipedia! Thank you for your contributions. I hope you like the place and decide to stay. Unfortunately, one or more of the pages you created, such as Prophecies about Pope John Paul II, may not conform to some of Wikipedia's guidelines, and may not be retained.

There's a page about creating articles you may want to read called Your first article. If you are stuck, and looking for help, please come to the Teahouse, where experienced Wikipedians can answer any queries you have! Or, you can just type {{help me}} on this page, followed by your question, and someone will show up shortly to answer your questions. Here are a few other good links for newcomers:

I hope you enjoy editing here and being a Wikipedian! Please sign your name on talk pages using four tildes (~~~~); this will automatically produce your name and the date. If you have any questions, check out Wikipedia:Questions or ask me on my talk page. Again, welcome! Kolbasz (talk) 13:14, 14 May 2014 (UTC)[reply]

Proposed deletion of Prophecies about Pope John Paul II[edit]

The article Prophecies about Pope John Paul II has been proposed for deletion because of the following concern:

Original research.

While all constructive contributions to Wikipedia are appreciated, content or articles may be deleted for any of several reasons.

You may prevent the proposed deletion by removing the {{proposed deletion/dated}} notice, but please explain why in your edit summary or on the article's talk page.

Please consider improving the article to address the issues raised. Removing {{proposed deletion/dated}} will stop the proposed deletion process, but other deletion processes exist. In particular, the speedy deletion process can result in deletion without discussion, and articles for deletion allows discussion to reach consensus for deletion. Kolbasz (talk) 13:14, 14 May 2014 (UTC)[reply]

Signing talk page posts[edit]

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Thank you. Kolbasz (talk) 14:26, 18 May 2014 (UTC)[reply]

Re: Prophecies about Pope John Paul II[edit]

Hello, Jakub Szymański. You have new messages at Kolbasz's talk page.
Message added 14:29, 18 May 2014 (UTC). You can remove this notice at any time by removing the {{Talkback}} or {{Tb}} template.[reply]

Nomination of Prophecies about Pope John Paul II for deletion[edit]

A discussion is taking place as to whether the article Prophecies about Pope John Paul II is suitable for inclusion in Wikipedia according to Wikipedia's policies and guidelines or whether it should be deleted.

The article will be discussed at Wikipedia:Articles for deletion/Prophecies about Pope John Paul II until a consensus is reached, and anyone is welcome to contribute to the discussion. The nomination will explain the policies and guidelines which are of concern. The discussion focuses on high-quality evidence and our policies and guidelines.

Users may edit the article during the discussion, including to improve the article to address concerns raised in the discussion. However, do not remove the article-for-deletion notice from the top of the article.

Your recent edits[edit]

Hello and welcome to Wikipedia. When you add content to talk pages and Wikipedia pages that have open discussion (but never when editing articles), please be sure to sign your posts. There are two ways to do this. Either:

Add four tildes ( ~~~~ ) at the end of your comment; or
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Thank you. --SineBot (talk) 17:10, 19 May 2014 (UTC)[reply]

Your posts about Prophecies about Pope John Paul II[edit]

Jakub, I'm sure you mean well but you need to understand the problems with your article. Please note the following:

Please read this policy: Wikipedia:No original research. To stop the article being deleted you need to make sure the article complies with it. Maybe ask User:Piotrus to explain it to you in Polish (which I assume he speaks) if you are unsure. The point is we can only write articles when a lot of sources cover the same topic.
Also, there is another policy Wikipedia:No personal attacks. A personal attack includes calling other editors "ignorant", and you might not be allowed to continue to edit Wikipedia if you do that.
Please make sure you always log in to your Jakub account when you edit Wikipedia. If you have an account (which you have) you are not alowed to sometimes log in and sometimes not.
Finally, please make sure you sign all your posts by typing ~~~~. This will automatically sign your account name for you.

Thanks. DeCausa (talk) 18:45, 19 May 2014 (UTC)[reply]

Dear DeCausa I understand pretty well what You wants speak to Me. But You probably don't listens to Me... I told You that Article is still under construction and that mean that still I'm learn Wiki terms. But I'm sensitive to all indications, whose were given to Me by Kolbasz. So "accusation" about: original research - for now as I presume, no existent more (please check article). I put there 10 sources for confirmations of My thesis. Problem for You now may be so with that, that these sources are almost all in Polish (and only one is in English), but as for this - this can be good exercise for User Piotrus (as Pole he should know, that I not giveth unchecked informations in this matter - but he didnt this). As for "Ignorant". I'm terribly sorry if You feel offend, but this will no more repeated... (but comments looked little like playing, I mean, that there was no sources, but I sended notice that I plan more references - I gave info for Kolbasz - and meantime there appear comments about lack of sources/ or references). Sorry also for not log, I just simply forgot... I will tried to be more carefully.Jakub Szymański (talk) 22:06, 19 May 2014 (UTC)[reply]

You call it "my thesis". That means it is your idea. That's what is meant by "original research" in Wikipedia, and is not allowed. You are right, I don't read Polish. But I can not see a statement in the article that says "this prophecy is about John Paul II" with a source (even in Polish) cited immediately after that statement. For it not to be "original research" you must have this.

An example to make this clear: It is not enough to have a source that says Juliusz Słowacki wrote about a future Pope as “sacramental power he will show when he will take the world in his hand”, but not saying that this is about JPII. Then have a source saying Pope John Paul II is associated with the song "He's got the whole world in his hands", but not saying that this was prophesised by Juliusz Słowacki. You are not allowed under Wikipedia rules to connect the two statements yourself. That's a type of original research called synthesis. You must have a single source that says that when Juliusz Słowacki wrote about "taking the world in his hands" this is about John Paul II because of the song he was associated with. It must be the source that makes the connection, not you. DeCausa (talk) 06:22, 20 May 2014 (UTC)[reply]

"I feel your anger" - like star wars Imperator said. If St Isidore made books with contents from other Authors, but yet he signed them with his own Name. You playing with words or you have problem with semantic side. If I use form "my thesis" that only mean that it is base which I defend, and not that these are Mine in full. So please: could You be more ethical, instead use with "arguments" from overused meanings. Dont worry about lack of knowledge of Polish language. I asked UserPiotrus if he could make survey of "My sources". So maybe You should start working with Him. I'm sure that He will be very happy with possibility of sharing effects of "his discoveries". As for synthesis and source (i.e. single source that connect some statements). Ok. But many of them are in cited Polish sources. And, as I said, article is still under construction, so there also will be add in near future additional materials (I assure you, that specially for you will be footnote with dirct reference to "He's got the whole world in his hands" and John Paul II - from source, which, as I know, will be published in june 2014; so please - a litlle patience!; and then UsePiotrus will check the content of source for you). Dont worry, be happy! Jakub Szymański (talk) 11:06, 20 May 2014 (UTC)[reply]

Jakub, please can you answer three questions:

Have you read Wikipedia:Synthesis? (This sets out the rule "Do not combine material from multiple sources to reach or imply a conclusion not explicitly stated by any of the sources.")
Do you believe your article follows the rules in WIkipedia:Synthesis?
Could you identify which of your citations in Polish says explicitly that each of the prophecies you mention in the article are about Pope John Paul II?

DeCausa (talk) 11:13, 20 May 2014 (UTC)[reply]

Answers: for 1. and 2. (as I think): Yes I've readed it, and I assure you that I not use sophistry. Problem as I see is based on different philosophies of working and appear rather from "abundancy". So I make this more clear. I first put original texts of prophecies as basic source, then I put facts from Life of Pope, all of them seems to be adequate to above mentioned prognostics. And in end I started add interpretations, which connect them and are made not by Me. So... You are just landed in middle of the proces (progress)... As for 3. - yes this will be made , as I said before (but you must wait to june 2014; for example: I wait also on permission use of photos , which will explain also some things). And personaly for now could you make list of parts, in which you wants footnotes? This will be helpful.. Besides; could you look on Wiki page: List of fulfilled prophecies. Because from start point some peoples accused Me that even those basic texts were not in connection to Pope. And yet: which prophecy is exact in connection to something? For example, why Peoples on whole world have believe that prophecy about Virgin, who will save the France, find fulfilment in St Joan of Arc? And so on... Could You answer that question?Jakub Szymański (talk) 12:21, 20 May 2014 (UTC)[reply]

I didn't ask about sophistry. I asked about synthesis as that is defined in Wikipedia ("Do not combine material from multiple sources to reach or imply a conclusion not explicitly stated by any of the sources.") I think this may be the root of your misunderstanding. By "synthesis" we do not mean there is anything wrong, in the "outside world", with the conclusion you reach. In other words, it doesn't have to be an invalid conclusion. The point of Wikipedia is that we only say what the sources say and nothing more. We are allowed only to make a conclusion if the sources make the conclusion for us.

I think you are saying you do not yet have a source cited in the article which explicitly says "prophecy X is about Pope John Paul II". If that is so, the article will be deleted. You can recreate the article when you have found the sources making the connections. But when you do, you can only mention the prophecies which the sources have themselves linked to Pope John Paul II. You can't mention things which you think make the linkage. Finally, when you find the sources you can only use them if they satisfy the criteria in Wikipedia: Reliable sources, which you need to read.

On your question about Joan of Arc, I don't think you've got the point. If a reliable source has discussed a prophecy about Joan of arc, that could go in her article. If no source has, then it can't. Looking at the article (Joan of Arc) I can't see any such prophecy.DeCausa (talk) 12:49, 20 May 2014 (UTC)[reply]

In fact there are many sources speaking about poem of Julius Słowacki in reference to Pope John Paul II and His events. As I showed in footnotes. In reference for Wembley and Galway, this will be published in june 2014 (as I said two times). So when I know about this and know the content of this coming publication, I just will made footnote in advance for now (which is in practice). And in two weeks from now, you check reliability for yourself together with Polish Dictionary. And remember latin sentence: summus jus summa injuria (as for prosecution and persecution for one footnote). And you not behave like devils of Mr Clive Staples Lewis. As for Joan of Arc I help you ("I can't see any such prophecy").

Citation is: For some years before and around the time of activity of Joan of Arc, a number of vague prophecies concerning a young Maid who would save France were circulating. Some of these spoke of a Maid who was supposed to come from the "borders of Lorraine". Since Joan's village was near the border between France and the Duchy of Lorraine, at the time many in France believed in her. Durand Laxart, Joan's uncle, who accompanied Joan on both of her journeys to Vaucouleurs, reported at the rehabilitation trial that Joan had told him: "Was it not said that France would be ruined through a woman and afterwards restored by a virgin?". It is known that such prophecies were widely known in France at around that time and that many in France among the supporters of the Dauphin identified Joan with the Maiden in the prophecies and this identification contributed to her popularity and following. Joan (who claimed divine guidance) led the French army to several important victories during the Hundred Years' War, which paved the way for the coronation of Charles VIIJakub Szymański (talk) 15:15, 20 May 2014 (UTC)[reply]

"In fact there are many sources speaking about poem of Julius Słowacki in reference to Pope John Paul II and His events. As I showed in footnotes." Please provide the citation numbers from your article for these. There is no such statement in your article which has a citation. The quote on oan of arc is not from the Joan of Arc article, which does not mention these prophecies. I see it is from Maid of Lorraine prophecies which should be deleted because there are no sources cited. DeCausa (talk) 16:27, 20 May 2014 (UTC)[reply]

In References, you have: Tomasz Królak, "1001 rzeczy ktore warto wiedziec o Janie Pawle II", Wydawnictwo M, Kraków 2010, page 55 - Antoni Dargas, "Jan Paweł II, syn narodu polskiego", Myśl Polska, Londyn 1978, page 54 - Neal Ascherson, "The Polish August: the self-limiting revolution", Allen Lane, London 1981, page 123 - Czesław Ryszka, "Jan Paweł II Wielki", Edycja Święty Paweł, Częstochowa 2002, page 21 - Przemysław Owczarek, "Karol Wojtyła-Jan Paweł II: podhalańska opowieść o świętym : od historii do mitu-studium antropologiczne", Wydawnictwo Avalon, Kraków 2006, page 74 -

They speak about application of poem Mr Słowacki to Person John Paul II, and some events of His Life. Of course there are many more papers or books, whose connect this poem and Pope, but do You think that I have time to investigate them all? In Poland this is a matter of common knowledge as You can understand from above mentioned work Mr Ascherson, who observed and described this procces in one's of crucial moments. Yes I'm conscious that in the West is no knowledge of this, so part of My recent "problems" can also be connected with this. But Ok. I share with You. In weekend there will be more time, so I count on You (and for now not be offend but I have a necessary works, so I must answered to them, and I cannot watch Wiki disccusion for a few days, but in weekend will be OK). Rescius and specialy Markiewicz have strong bases in references, and I can also mention about them (I not reveal everything yet).

As for: "The quote on oan of arc is not from the Joan of Arc article, which does not mention these prophecies. I see it is from Maid of Lorraine prophecies which should be deleted because there are no sources cited." You see, I told You then first time, that this is on page with list of fulfiled prophecies (but I didnt speak about page of Joan of Arc), so You put together this by Youself. But in reference to this page about fulfiled prophecies. I had give this to You as example that in Wiki there is plenty of pages which have less standards, then article about prophecies of John Paul II. So don't be so fast and hasty with judging. See You in weekend...Jakub Szymański (talk) 17:36, 20 May 2014 (UTC)[reply]

You haven't fixed the article at all.. Instead of insulting the other editors who post on the deletion page, which I see you've done again, you should try to understand what the problem is. You don't seem to understand how a Wikipedia article is put together and you don't seem interested in learning. I've tried to help you, but I can see I've wasted my time. I won't bother further. DeCausa (talk) 19:07, 22 May 2014 (UTC)[reply]

Dear DeCausa I appreciate Your labour. But probably when I must make choice between be with Pope, or be with Wiki hell's rules, I take the first thing. Peoples speak different things from different points of views and no matter how "neutral" rules are in conception, because everybody starts from own bases. So once again and sincerely thank You for Your attention. I will be remember about You in My prayers, and I think that after all you are nice guy and worthy fellow...Jakub Szymański (talk) 19:42, 22 May 2014 (UTC)[reply]