User talk:Jax MN

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A barnstar for you!

		The Fraternity/Sorority Barnstar
		for dedication and endurance building List of fraternities and sororities at Cornell University  Unician ∇  06:17, 7 June 2014 (UTC)

barnstar

		The Fraternity/Sorority Barnstar
		for thankless work creating a number of chapter lists DOCUMENT★ERROR 01:17, 24 December 2014 (UTC)

A barnstar for you!

		The Turning Wikipedia Green Barnstar
		For your tireless contributions to Fraternity/Sorority articles.

––FormalDude talk 22:37, 29 August 2021 (UTC)

Buddy! Thanks! Jax MN (talk) 22:37, 29 August 2021 (UTC)

Alpha Kappa Rho

I don't believe it either, but 1,000 chapters wouldn't surprise me. Alpha Phi Omega of the Philippines has over 300 chapters and about 300 Alumni Associations. and some of the GLOs in the Philippines operate like the USA NPHC fraternities and sororities and have full non-collegiate chapters outside their home country. (The list of country flags doesn't surprise me, Alpha Kappa Rho is also one of the more numerous in the Philippines. Whenever I curse not being able to get up to date information on Alpha Phi Omega of the Philippines, I have to remind myself that they are one of the better documented. (Glitches in membership records during the Marcos years not withstanding.) Frankly working on active fraternities and sororities in the Philippines can be tougher than working on groups in the USA that have been inactive for 50 years!Naraht (talk) 20:50, 25 December 2021 (UTC)

They claim a chapter in Malta. Good grief, that would be the tiniest of fractions, global travelers, no, ex-pats who reside in Malta, themselves the tiniest fraction of the law school grads who are themselves a fraction of the student bodies of a couple of Philippine universities. If not native Filipinos, why would a native society in Malta of all places adopt Alpha Kappa Rho? The entire national is less than 50 years old. I call it utter shenanigans. If I'm wrong, maybe my holding the line on this will force them to create a website for their 20,000 chapters and 5M members. Methinks the whole thing is absurd. Jax MN (talk) 22:28, 25 December 2021 (UTC)

I think you are confusing Alpha Kappa Rho with a group like Sigma Rho. Alpha Kappa Rho is *not* restricted to law school graduates. And given https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=fS-rJ9oIbJI , I'm inclined to believe it exists. Alpha Phi Omega of the Philippines has an Alumni Association in Milan, Italy that has existed since 2006. Filipino expats end up *everywhere*. I also think 20,000 is wrong, but I wouldn't bat an eye at 1,000. The primary question is how to count the equivalent of "Alumni Associations".Naraht (talk) 23:06, 25 December 2021 (UTC)

Iota Phi Theta chapter list

Looks like the list from the UofIll site is a good start for an Iota Phi Theta list *and* unlike every other NPHC group I've seen, the National website has most if not all of the information on where chapters are. (https://iotaphitheta.org/iotaphitheta/chapter-locator) Looks like the UofIll site doesn't understand the chapters ending in Omega are graduate chapters, so some tweeking is needed. I've taken the info from the UofIll side and will build an excel spreadsheet from that and then automate the creation of the FratChapter template lines. The Graduate chapters will need to go into a separate list generated from the national chapter-locator.Naraht (talk) 18:58, 27 December 2021 (UTC)

Nu Beta Epsilon

An actual Article which might show notability (as opposed to being mentioned as existing) page 11. https://www.nli.org.il/ar/newspapers/?a=is&oid=cgs19400411-01&type=staticpdf&submitted=1&e=-------ar-20--1--img-txIN%7CtxTI--------------1&g-recaptcha-response=03AGdBq25ScOclKrZAQS4iXqQa72nindEgAhvn0Hh8U89RaJMWD4AtTzFu92XfpLGC7Bnr4gji4NZJ638vaK6EYsOsLD1GVBJiRciX9OaskAujDrFT4j9U9bdQJhNsWUBmckc474ndWJbzflSvVbIKZ_loVvwGbX2iBcmTRG0fSWi_UvSQcjXg7EAkn_y0qmt6CooP8IQ27RvXiWlN4eYWP9y-4rM4LYZEtDST059eE5gW-KHQRd2H86VVEIvlkKgQQ62Tti-cFsYfvTV9mmFb7n2rdSatOBxKQodL-TyqTsjywMY47z87Ods_5XOgEwJD0q7F7JGko3GfcTrfLxY_8eOgq3i31w27nq7gRXXG0jcskCaAjk9ivGGimhREpohRoV_aCdq6B5BUoQU8fKKaDyAVnBVCnaLq8Qzc9qPDHkx3rn3G6s3raydsMAVD9kE66pLltdqpfm3o0tNyeda3raopdyipta6kTg

(yes, that is one obnoxiously long URL). Chapter names seem to be like some of the other legal groups. I have seen both Brandeis (the founding chapter), Judah Benjamin and Cordozo. But from the page at U of Miami, it looks like they changed to greek letters. What I've found has mostly been chapters around Chicago, U of Miami and George Washington.Naraht (talk) 09:45, 28 December 2021 (UTC)

Thank you. I read the article, finding it on p.11. It will be valuable proof of notability for a Wikipedia article. Papers like the Sentinel are so painful to read. Did you see the ads, requesting funds for "distressed relatives" in Poland, Lithuania, and other places? Already, word was leaking out of German atrocities. Already, writers were noting the propaganda, meant to inflame anti-Semitism. But these poor souls didn't know the horror that would unfold within a year or two.

Naraht, I will be sporadically active here, as I've got a busy season for work fast approaching. With your help I was able to identify and update many articles that needed infoboxes, and some of these need chapter list tables. I'm pleased with the most recent three, Beta Kappa, Phi Kappa (Catholic fraternity), and Theta Kappa Phi. Those chapter list tables will continue to be a focus, with further attention to the to-do list. Where I can, I now add an 80px, tightly cropped member badge to the infobox, color if possible. That size appears to pass review. I've only had a couple of the many graphics I've uploaded turned back because of size. They seem to be acceptable if I keep them under 60KB. As for new pages, I plan to write the Clovia page next. For the Project, I would like to offer further guidance for newer editors, to list for them what other maintenance or development projects they might take on. Your list of missing infoboxes helped me, for example. Jax MN (talk) 18:18, 28 December 2021 (UTC)

Yes, Painful. I've read other issues, some even later. I'm glad these three got the care they did. Have fun with Clovia. My two that I intend to complete by the end of January are the IOta Phi Theta chapter list and piecing together everything for Nu Beta Epsilon. Are you in a job is normally busy in the first part of the year? I'm not sure who else does significant work across the Greek Letter Organizations, but we certainly need new blood.Naraht (talk) 20:38, 28 December 2021 (UTC)

I am a consultant, with a normal workload of three, 3-month-duration, focused projects a year. I could pursue more, expanding my team, and am shifting a bit to offer a set of services learned over the past year. It just happened that I had some free time over the past couple of months to research all those missing graphics and to create the infoboxes I did. Normally, this WP work is an evening project, when everyone has gone to sleep, meaning that it's more of a part time thing for me. But it remains a labor of love: I had several great uncles who were Freemasons and fraternity men. I followed in their footsteps, joining several organizations (APO, Phi Sig, the Masons and their related groups, and several honor societies), and from one uncle's treasure trove of books and memorabilia I inherited a love of the 1920s. All that has sparked my continued interest in researching these groups, many of which date to that period.

I agree that we need new blood. I often (now) patrol the edit list, and offer recommendations and thanks. We could still use a couple more strong volunteers. Jax MN (talk) 20:49, 28 December 2021 (UTC)

At University of Minnesota, I presume. Yeah, more GLOs in 1925 than in 1975, I think. I was actually hoping the guy who was changing the Iota Phi Theta alumni would stay around. But I think the articles covered by WP:FRAT are strong than they were a few years ago. Now if we could just manage to justify all of the NALFO and APIDA groups having pages.Naraht (talk) 19:09, 29 December 2021 (UTC)

Yes, at the U of MN. You graduated from Carnegie Mellon, right?

I am motivated to write or improve pages for all of these legitimate societies which serve collegiate populations. Thriving or small, it doesn't matter. I've less concern for high school and non-collegiate societies, but yet for them it does seem valuable that we identify them and support maintenance (and inclusion in the Watchlist) in order to distinguish which ones are which. That's one reason I'm so pleased with the addition of an Affiliation parameter. Baird's had it right, by the 8th or 10th edition or so, to set the bar of inclusion as a "national" to require at least three chapters, even if one or more had closed. As I tend to be a Wikipedia Inclusionist around here, as opposed to Deletionist, I'm supportive of including the small or dormant groups as notable - following the updated inclusion rules of course. A topic our Project will have to address is the puffery and peacock language that fills the articles for the Divine Nine. They rarely get a significant cleanup, leading to a misperception of heightened importance for these organizations or an unfair and perhaps unearned assessment of the quality of the articles (leading to Featured Article (FA) candidates, Good Article (GA) candidates, etc.) whereas the NIC and NPC group articles are scrutinized and clipped far more aggressively. Another topic we should address is to help readers understand which type of honor society it is they are dealing with. One of the multi-discipline societies? A single discipline, independent group? A captive honor society, like the one owned by the association of insurance agents, and used as a funnel for employees? Or one of the high-cost, for-profit honor societies that may be a not-for-profit, but which clearly pays big salaries to its founder and directors. Lots to do.

Overall, yes, I agree with you: the pages supported by our Project are much improved. Jax MN (talk) 23:58, 29 December 2021 (UTC)

Sigma Gamma Epsilon

http://www.sigmagammaepsilon.com/f11webchapterlist.pdf

As of Fall 2011.Naraht (talk) 19:13, 23 June 2022 (UTC)

Beta Sigma Tau CoA image

https://babel.hathitrust.org/cgi/pt?id=uc1.32106019794517&view=1up&seq=248&skin=2021&q1=%22Beta%20Sigma%20Tau%22

Good enough to clip?Naraht (talk) 21:26, 16 July 2022 (UTC)

https://archive.org/details/LETTERTOMRHENRYMROSENWALDFROMALLENWDULLES80B01676R0038001800301/page/n1/mode/2up?q=%22Beta+Sigma+Tau%22 might be better for clipping.Naraht (talk) 21:38, 16 July 2022 (UTC)

@Naraht I happened to find one on a UNC Pi Lamb chapter website. Must have been from an earlier history. It matches the crests you found, but is in color. Jax MN (talk) 00:16, 17 July 2022 (UTC)

Jax MN Cool!

Kappa Sigma Kappa

Just because we did so on Alpha Lambda Tau and Beta Sigma Tau, I think the table for the second incarnation should include the Theta Xi chapter that they became. (Possibly the first table as well). The list of Theta Xi chapters on the Theta Xi website makes it quite clear (they are all down at the bottom since they all start with Kappa). Let me know if you want to, if you want me to or if you don't think it is a good idea.Naraht (talk) 14:18, 22 July 2022 (UTC)

I don't mind either way. I like the formatting of this article slightly better, and was looking for consensus on this matter. Yes, certainly: I agree we ought to list the successor chapter name within the merged fraternity. To your point, the longer notes field where the new chapter name is listed could be helpful, but it widens the table somewhat - I don't know if that becomes a problem on smaller tablets or screens as I use two widescreen desk monitors when working on these. When I experimented with the formatting for Kappa Sigma Kappa (versus ALT and BST) I added additional detail in the footnotes to make the information more clear. Would researchers or readers be put off by not having the eventual chapter listed in the body text of the table? Or is a mention of the chapter name enough, where relegated to the footnotes like they are, here? I agree, too, that once we decide, we ought to adjust the other national organizations similarly. (This could become a year-long project in itself, updating list pages and adding them where they haven't yet been written, and in the same way, moving some of the notes to the EFN template.) Big picture, I'm pleased with this page, though it still has holes. --The lack of consistent source material has left it worse than most, with some missing dates and missing chapters. I am glad to see you found an additional possible chapter at Mount St. Mary's. I'm also intrigued by the placement of several foreign chapters. There may be an interesting story there, from their national publication, perhaps? I noted that the third iteration may have 30 or more chapters, but these may be legacy claims of the non-merged chapters that were actually dormant. Dunno...

I have two reflections, Naraht, as I mull these these options over. First, that we cannot place everything into body text or table text, and that casual researchers who aren't as picky as I am (maybe you, too, in that club), will find the bread crumb trail triggered by seeing the national letters alone, enough to spark them to read the references and notes. But I also note that where there is an open question or ambiguity, like for the SUNY Buffalo or Columbia chapters of BST, by promoting the issue to the visible table notes these fields may elicit answers from other readers. Jax MN (talk) 19:03, 22 July 2022 (UTC)

I'm not sure whether it makes it that much wider, in the second table, one entry goes on to the second line, Trine. I'm not sure that changing them from HT to AB of HT (don't feel like typing greek letters here) would make the boxes overall taller or wider, but Alpha Beta of HT probably would.

As for the holes. I know this one has lots. And I'd love to have a fraternity magazine. I dropped an email to U of Tasmania in Hobart, there do appear to be a few cases where the school is referred to as U of Hobart, so that might solve that.

As for the notes, my only real problem was the combination of refs and notes. And I decided a long time ago that your feeling on GLO articles especially ones that have gone under is closer to the way that you did the original document at U of Minnesota. Someday, someone may force us to pare the notes down. Until that point, I do find them quite interesting.Naraht (talk) 19:26, 22 July 2022 (UTC)

Next ?

So which group (and I'm fine with one off of the unlinked at List of fraternities and sororities at the University of Minnesota is next?

I defer to you. My list at the U of MN is a starting point, as an (ahem) comprehensive list, though if there were a similar page of Illinois or Columbia GLOs it might even be longer. We might also start working through the list of dormant groups in Baird's. Jax MN (talk) 19:39, 22 July 2022 (UTC)

Sigma Omega Psi

I think I've decided on my "next", Sigma Omega Psi. Merged with AEPi in 1940 with only 3 new chapters but had at least a dozen. However AEPI also absorbed one into the AEPi Alpha and considers several charterings to be restarts of Sigma Omega Psi chapters. Never made the main listing areas in Baird's but had quite a few chapters listed (though different in different editions and no chapter chartering dates. Actually pretty annoying that only 1914 is listed as a founding date. https://www.aepibama.org/our-history would be a good place to start as well, but it appears they won't know who owns the copyright for the pin image. :( Feel free to create the page if you want, but I'll try to put stuff in over the next copy of days.Naraht (talk) 21:29, 25 July 2022 (UTC)

Here's the Archive page. Baird's Archive, document showing Sigma Omega Psi. As for the pin image, no worries if it is copyrighted. Wikipedia carves out the right to show a smaller version of an image to be used as the corporate identifier. When I have both a crest and a pin, the pin is OK, if shown in smaller format, as long as it is discussed in the body text. One of the yearbooks might have a more accurate founding date. Jax MN (talk) 22:25, 25 July 2022 (UTC)

Alpha Kappa Sigma

Given that the page has been created and deleted *five* times, I've talked to an admin about creating it for the Law fraternity, I indicated that I would create it in my sandbox and let another member of the WP:FRAT take a look. Note, he asked me to use the Category:Professional legal fraternities and sororities in the United States as a guide. I realized that I'm the original creator for four out of the eight groups there. I really wonder sometimes what percentage of Greek Letter Organization pages that you or I are the original authors. :) Naraht (talk) 13:44, 2 August 2022 (UTC)

Yep. I hold out hope that we will gather more volunteers. This is the reason I leave all those To Do pages, with instructions or suggestions for article improvements. Sort of a bread crumb strategy, to coax casual readers to do more. Jax MN (talk) 17:05, 2 August 2022 (UTC)

One of these days I have *got* to move some of this page into an archive. Once I take the time to figure that out. Jax MN (talk) 17:06, 2 August 2022 (UTC)

Language Honoraries.

I've been working on Delta Phi Alpha including talking to their national president. I know that they want to keep the article under that name, but I've really been thinking of changing *that* to a dab page like French National Honor Society (and yes, <lang> National Honor Society vs. National <lang> Honor society can get confusing.) In addition, for the various "levels", a page about a specific honor society should only link to those at the same "level" or the same language, so for example, a page about the High School honorary in Spanish should only link to other High School honoraries and to any other Spanish Language honoraries regardless of Level. (I'm quite willing to move this disucussion to WP:FRAT) Naraht (talk) 14:23, 25 August 2022 (UTC)

These three (German, French and Spanish) seem to operate within their own bubbles, with little crossover to other GLOs. Did you check how they answer their phone? Do they start by calling themselves the German National Honor Society? or as Delta Phi Alpha? I fall back to self-determination as my rule of thumb, versus my (as an outsider) choosing how they ought to be labeled. --Thus naming conventions can get messy. But people are messy. Sigh. I don't know that a DAB is needed, but if these groups maintain usage of their GLO names I certainly support making those the primary name of the article, and using REDIRECTs for names like <lang> National Honor Society and National <lang> Honor society Jax MN (talk) 16:19, 25 August 2022 (UTC)

Linking to chapters

It is probably better to create List of Mu Mu Mu chapters as a redirect to the section and then add that to the list of chapters category as well as to where you are adding in the articles.Naraht (talk) 19:06, 27 December 2022 (UTC)

Yep. I'm working on a new section for the F&S project Talk page, a working (expanding) list of all the missing or substandard chapter lists. Almost done with the first pass.

My adjustment to the List of social fraternities and sororities is therefore a temporary improvement, and should be updated per your suggestion.

Sigma Iota Lambda?

I can't find anything in a quick google search on the group, is that what you meant to add?Naraht (talk) 16:35, 3 February 2023 (UTC)

Naraht, thanks for catching that. Typo. I fixed it. Jax MN (talk) 17:30, 3 February 2023 (UTC)

You made my weekend

		The Fraternity/Sorority Barnstar
		For finding the source for Sigma Mu Delta that we both missed

Rublamb (talk) 08:28, 20 February 2023 (UTC)

Beta Kappa

What was the source for all of the information on where the chapters came from in the list, there are a lot of notes, but I couldn't find any indication on source. I'm specifically looking for where the Beta Kappa chapter at U of Illinois came from a group called Alpha Phi Omega. Naraht (talk) 13:17, 24 March 2023 (UTC)

It had been some time, but looks like that information came from the Baird's Archive, the "inactive men's groups" document. I was able to trace a second group that merged into the Beta Kappa chapter just prior to the Theta Chi merger, and have corrected this in the reference note, where I had mistakenly thought it was merely another local. Rather, it was the Alpha chapter of a sputtering regional fraternity. Moving on to the predecessor of the Beta Kappa chapter, while the Archive doesn't specifically call out that the earlier APO was a local, it does indicate that that group formed in 1920, fully five years before the formation of the national service fraternity, and 12 years before expansion to the Illinois campus. So it was by inference that I determined the prior Illinois group was a local chapter. A scan of Illinois yearbooks may elicit more information. Jax MN (talk) 14:20, 24 March 2023 (UTC)

I took a look at that sheet and don't see anything related (https://uofi.app.box.com/v/inactive-glos-mens).Naraht (talk) 18:27, 24 March 2023 (UTC)

That sheet has a listing for Beta Kappa, where that fraternity's Illinois chapter, Kappa chapter, is noted with a predecessor group called Alpha Phi Omega dating to 1920. It also has a reference, their inline reference #7, which notes its absorption of a chapter of Delta Alpha Epsilon. If you search for the entry for Delta Alpha Epsilon you will note this was the Alpha chapter of that small fraternity, which at one point had four chapters. That absorption came about the same year of the national merger into Theta Chi, for Beta Kappa as a national. Do I misunderstand your query? Jax MN (talk) 19:16, 24 March 2023 (UTC)

Coincidentally, I have a friend who is an alumnus of Beta Kappa's Alpha chapter at Hamline University, now called Theta Chi's Beta Kappa chapter, who is quite knowledgeable about the history of that national. He joined in the 1990s, but that group remains a solid chapter, and is quite proud of their history as a former national fraternity. Jax MN (talk) 19:20, 24 March 2023 (UTC)

Misread the entry. Note, I went to the 1922 Illio yearbook and didn't see any sign (Did see a chapter page for the Ku Klux Klan, made up of those from Social Fraternities, like a Fraternity honor society) https://libsysdigi.library.illinois.edu/OCA/Books2012-12/illio/illio1922univ/illio1922univ.pdf . So the question is where was the information on the sheet pulled from?Naraht (talk) 19:23, 24 March 2023 (UTC)

That may have been due to publication timing. Check the 1923 or 1924 books. Jax MN (talk) 19:25, 24 March 2023 (UTC)

Nope, went through the 1920s Illios. There is a "Delta Phi Omega" that appears to disappear where Beta Kappa comes on campus, but no "Alpha Phi Omega". I'm going to see if I can find the school newspaper from that time.Naraht (talk) 19:44, 24 March 2023 (UTC)

Carroll Lurdling would likely have additional material on this, that didn't make it into the archive. I have his email address, and could inquire on your behalf. Is your interest to clarify whether there was a relationship with the larger service fraternity? Jax MN (talk) 19:48, 24 March 2023 (UTC)

Nope, to get a list of *every* time Alpha Phi Omega was used as the name of a Greek Letter Organizations. I would like to write him to *correct* the entry. I found an issue of the Daily Illini showing *clearly* that the predecessor of Beta Kappa was Delta Phi Omega, *not* Alpha Phi Omega. https://idnc.library.illinois.edu/?a=d&d=DIL19251024.2.86&srpos=16&e=-------en-20-DIL-1-byDA.rev-img-txIN-%22Delta+Phi+Omega%22---------

I have made a list through the years complete with school, when they existed, what they became and what the pin looked like if possible ranging from a Chemistry Honorary in North Dakota to an African American Beautician and Barber group. U of Illinois wasn't in my list, was on the wikipedia page for Beta Kappa (I go through and look for unlinked Alpha Phi Omega on Wikipedia) and I wanted to understand why. Answer appears to be that the archive has it wrong. (and for the school they are actually at!).Naraht (talk) 19:55, 24 March 2023 (UTC)

I'll send your reference, and request a correction. They'll file it until the next time they open that document. Jax MN (talk) 23:25, 24 March 2023 (UTC)

Thanx.Naraht (talk) 18:41, 25 March 2023 (UTC)

Phi Alpha Tau

Periodically I find groups that are listed on your F&S at University of Minnesota. A list of Phi Alpha Tau through Pi is in the 1934 Emersonian.https://ia800407.us.archive.org/11/items/emersonianemerso1934unse/emersonianemerso1934unse.pdf Naraht (talk) 02:04, 6 May 2023 (UTC)

Thank you very much. I added this as a reference, for future capture in a WP article about the fraternity. Jax MN (talk) 17:51, 6 May 2023 (UTC)

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