User talk:MarkRS53

Gorage goodman- thanks for the amendment mark, the reference to rialway engineer was in the 'Aces high' enrty for Goodman, obviously Shores/Williams may have interpreted the vocation incorrectly. Thanks Harryurz (talk) 10:25, 26 June 2011 (UTC)[reply]

Managing a conflict of interest[edit]

Hello, MarkRS53. We welcome your contributions, but if you have an external relationship with the people, places or things you have written about on the page George Goodman (RAF officer), you may have a conflict of interest (COI). Editors with a conflict of interest may be unduly influenced by their connection to the topic. See the conflict of interest guideline and FAQ for organizations for more information. We ask that you:

avoid editing or creating articles about yourself, your family, friends, colleagues, company, organization, clients, or competitors;
propose changes on the talk pages of affected articles (you can use the {{edit COI}} template);
disclose your conflict of interest when discussing affected articles (see Wikipedia:Conflict of interest § How to disclose a COI);
avoid linking to your organization's website in other articles (see Wikipedia:Spam § External link spamming);
do your best to comply with Wikipedia's content policies.

In addition, you are required by the Wikimedia Foundation's terms of use to disclose your employer, client, and affiliation with respect to any contribution which forms all or part of work for which you receive, or expect to receive, compensation. See Wikipedia:Paid-contribution disclosure.

Also, editing for the purpose of advertising, publicising, or promoting anyone or anything is not permitted. Thank you. Cabayi (talk) 08:56, 22 August 2023 (UTC)[reply]

I do not have a conflict of interest. I am not related in any way to the subject of this wiki or to anyone else involved. I just happened to have studied the history. The people who are trying to change the wiki have the conflict of interest. They have an agenda of trying to force acceptance of something that is not true and has been rectified. They are doing this for ulterior motives. The data I have are published and verified. The RAF and the Battle of Britain Trust both agree with me.

You did not answer my query. Can this wiki be locked against malicious tampering? MarkRS53 (talk) 09:17, 22 August 2023 (UTC)[reply]

I'm sorry. Your edit summary, "The family contradicts these statements", and your 12 year history with the article (over half of all your edits), gave me the impression you were editing at their bidding.

What the family says is not a reliable source, and unless published somewhere is not verifiable either.

Articles can be protected if they are subject to vandalism. This article has not been subject to vandalism.

Please don't throw words like "malicious tampering" around. Assume good faith. If you are convinced Figureofnine (talk · contribs) acted out of malice you can make a report at the administrators noticeboard but beware of WP:BOOMERANG. Cabayi (talk) 13:12, 22 August 2023 (UTC)[reply]

I am not relying on the family for my information. Goodman's war grave is viewable on the internet, marked with a cross. I have a large amount of data available from the National Archive and I have his birth record from Mandate Palestine with a confirmation document from the Israeli Government.

These attempted changes are a form of vandalism. I know who is initiating them. He has an agenda which does not take into account either the facts nor the wishes of the family. That is why it can be considered malicious. This is not his first attempt to twist the facts. MarkRS53 (talk) 13:32, 22 August 2023 (UTC)[reply]

Mark, you need to cite the sources specifically so that a reader can verify the claims. Wikipedia:Citing sources is a useful guide to doing this.

In the context of the edits, you have been removing sourced information and adding unsourced information. That makes you the vandal. Provide sources for your changes which the readers can check for themselves and your changes will be left in place. Cabayi (talk) 16:54, 22 August 2023 (UTC)[reply]

I didn't remove any information, Figureofnine did. He is the one who changed what was written and sourced. His sources are out of date. He is the vandal because he knows that what he has written is a lie. His source,https://www.jewishvirtuallibrary.org/jewish-pilots-and-aircrews-nbsp-in-the-battle-of-britain, is a lie. I have a copy of the birth document in Hebrew. It is not issued by Haifa Municipality, it is issued by the State of Israel. It is a modern translation into Hebrew of the British birth registration. There was no such thing as the Haifa Municipality when Goodman was born. The Israel Air Force Bulletin would never call Goodman the first Israeli Ace, that honour goes to Giora Romm, who is famous in Israel. Goodman is unknown. What Figureofnine is doing is immoral. He is besmerching the name of a British hero who died for his country. He should be ashamed and so should you for supporting him. I did not create this website, I just try to protect it from nasty attacks like this one. You tell me what more corroberation you need for the original text and I shall supply it, everything is on record. MarkRS53 (talk) 19:29, 22 August 2023 (UTC)[reply]

I'm not going to mush through this SPA's personal attacks, misrepresentations, howling and ranting except to point out that the Jewish Virtual Library article he mentions was a footnoted source for this article for years prior to my arrival a few days ago. I added text from the journal article upon which it was largely based, duly footnoted, which had not been previously cited. Figureofnine (talk • contribs) 23:43, 22 August 2023 (UTC)[reply]

Some of what is written in that article is true, some of it is not true. You are pushing the untruth. There are no references attached to the statements in this article. Wynn's has been corrected and you do not quote the latest version. The original was a misguided anti-semitic entry on the assumption that Goodman was Jewish. He wasn't. Similarly, all the references to "Palestinian" nationality are anti-semitic digs. None of them are proof of ehnicity, nationality or religion. The RAF has corrected it's Roll of Honour, substituting British for Palestinian. What you have written devalues the whole Wiki page. Whatever you write, the truth is still the same, you haven't actually changed Goodman from Christian to Jewish. You are just annoying his family and anyone else with an open mind. By the way, I have absolutely no connection with the family, I am just trying to honour a dead hero's wishes. Can you say the same? MarkRS53 (talk) 04:38, 23 August 2023 (UTC)[reply]

Also I would like to add that your own reference: # "Battle of Britain London Monument - P/O G e Goodman", states that his parents were married in Church, thus proving that he was not Jewish, but of Jewish descent. MarkRS53 (talk) 07:49, 23 August 2023 (UTC)[reply]

For the umpteenth time, and I see we are well into WP:IDIDNTHEARTHAT territory, Wikipedia editors do not draw conclusions from sources per WP:SYNTHESIS. We do not go by primary sources like tombstones and we don't jump to conclusions based on tidbits on websites. I explained on the Talk page of the article how tombstones are not reliable sources. Others have pointed out how they often get the religion wrong in war cemeteries. I explained on the talk page of the article how they even get the year wrong sometimes for even more well-known people (such as Albert Salmi). Re your efforts to discredit the author of the journal article I cited, Sugarman, some of your comments on this page concerning Sugarman, your claims about him supposedly making things up, violate WP:BLP and are defamatory. BLP covers all pages on Wikipedia, talk and article alike. Your behavior here is WP:TENDENTIOUS and I request that you adhere to the policies cited to you and desist. I am not going to waste my time here going over the same territory over and over again. Figureofnine (talk • contribs) 12:24, 23 August 2023 (UTC)[reply]

August 2023[edit]

Please desist from removing content from George Goodman (RAF officer). Your conviction that something in a reliable source is "not true" is insufficient basis for removal. Figureofnine (talk • contribs) 12:29, 22 August 2023 (UTC)[reply]

Your information is completely out of date:

"Goodman was a British subject because he was born during the British administration of Palestine."

Goodman was born in 1920 when Haifa was in occupied Ottoman territory. The Mandate did not come into existance until 1923. He was British because he was born to an expatriate British Civil Servant and registered as such with the British Goverment. He did not qualify for a Mandate Palestinian passport according to the rules at that time.

"In an article in Jewish Historical Studies, citing the work of Battle of Britain historian Kenneth G. Wynn and Royal Air Force Museum researcher John Edwards, historian Martin Sugarman concluded that Goodman was Jewish and "was in fact an Israeli 'sabra' and the only Israeli in the Battle of Britain.""

Mr Sugarman has made a number of specious claims about George Goodman. The original entry in Wynn was decidedly (and wrongly) anti-semitic. If you read the latest version, you will find it completely different, concurring with my statements. The RAF have changed Goodman's natioonality from Palestinian to British with an apology. No Israelis could have fought in the Battle of Britain. Israel did not exist until 1948.

"Goodman was described as Palestinian by R. T. Bickers, an RAF veteran of the war, in a 50th anniversary publication commemorating the Battle of Britain, and by Richard Hough and Denis Richards in The Battle of Britain (London 1965)."

Again, the RAF have appologised.

In 1997, the Israel Air Force Bulletin described him as "our first Ace, born in Israel."<ref>Sugarman, Martin. “More than Just a Few: Jewish Pilots and Aircrew in the Battle of Britain.” Jewish Historical Studies, vol. 38, 2002, pp. 183–204. JSTOR, http://www.jstor.org/stable/29780055.

I would like to see that Bulletin. The first Israeli Ace is defined in Israel as Giora Romm https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Giora_Romm

Israel does not recognise George Goodman as Jewish, Palestinian or Israeli. His birth record is not marked "Jewish" as is the norm in Israel. His grave marker is a cross as can be seen on the war graves web site.

His mother was born Jewish in Palestine. However, she first converted to Islam to marry a Turkish officer and then to Christianity to marry a British Civil Servant after her first husband died. She was Christian before Goodman was born. He was sent to the German school in Haifa and then to public school in England. No Jewish upbringing at all. That makes him British Christian of Jewish descent.

If you wish to see documentation, I shall be happy to show you. Mr Sugarman, I am afraid, tells woppers in order to have things as he wants them, not how they actually are.

So please desist from changing the content in this wiki without proper research. MarkRS53 (talk) 13:18, 22 August 2023 (UTC)[reply]

Mark, the requirements for reliable, verifiable, independent sources do not include sources that you're happy to show on request. Every reader should be able to verify the sources for themself. Cabayi (talk) 13:33, 22 August 2023 (UTC)[reply]

All my sources are available via the internet or by request to the appropriate authorities. I was only offering to show my copies so that you may go to the sources and verify them. I have much more information which is, as you point out, hearsay and unverifiable. I was not going to share that information. MarkRS53 (talk) 13:42, 22 August 2023 (UTC)[reply]

Then please cite the sources you're using. It's insufficient to remove sourced material and say in the edit summary "There is other published work that contradicts all these statements." Cabayi (talk) 13:48, 22 August 2023 (UTC)[reply]

Figureofnine removed material without stating his sources and then used outdated sourses to justify his actions. You are damaging the information it the wiki without justification. I see he has repeated the mistakes again. All I want is that it is back the way it was. These changes invalidate the whole wiki and do not corrolate with any current history of George Goodman. MarkRS53 (talk) 15:05, 22 August 2023 (UTC)[reply]

The sourcing in the article is footnoted. Do not mischaracterize the actions of other editors and do not remove properly sourced material without proper basis. If you feel that sourced text is incorrect, you need to provide sourcing for that claim and not simply claim that it exists. Figureofnine (talk • contribs) 15:13, 22 August 2023 (UTC)[reply]

Your sourcing is Martin Sugarman who is making it up. He has no documentary evidence to support his position. I do. The latest Wynn's, The Battle of Britain Memorial Trust, The National Archive. That should trump Sugarman. MarkRS53 (talk) 15:23, 22 August 2023 (UTC)[reply]

As was explained to you earlier, what's needed here is sourcing, not the location of sourcing (National Archives) and vague references to sourcing not already in the article. It is your responsibility to provide that information if you feel that something in the article is incorrect, not give other editors vague clues as to what you're referring to. Figureofnine (talk • contribs) 16:16, 22 August 2023 (UTC)[reply]

Notice of Conflict of interest noticeboard discussion[edit]

There is currently a discussion at Wikipedia:Conflict of interest/Noticeboard regarding a possible conflict of interest incident with which you may be involved. Thank you. Figureofnine (talk • contribs) 13:08, 22 August 2023 (UTC)[reply]