User talk:Mathglot/Austrian Romance

This page was originally created 2 July 2017 02:41, at Talk:Austrian Romance. That article was deleted 9 August, and the Talk page was undeleted and moved here at my request, to preserve the ongoing discussions about it. Mathglot (talk)

Translation from Sp. Wikipedia[edit]

I have translated from Spanish Wikipedia the article with the name Lengua romance austríaca, using google translator and my own knowledge. Hope it is OK. --Rhaeto (talk) 02:41, 2 July 2017 (UTC)[reply]

Any such thing as Austrian Romance?[edit]

If someone can weigh in that there is an actual topic here (even non-notable), I'd like to hear it. I'm all in favor of anything even on the outskirts of accepted language theory (one of my favorites is Cal-Ugrian theory) but I just don't think Austrian Romance exists or existed in any form at all, not even as a fringe theory. Possibly it's just the title that is the problem, and it's known as something else in English, but I don't know what that might be. To me it seems like a whole bunch of OR, and a way to slap a name on something that's really just an unnamed transition to the various Romance languages we are well familiar with, even minor (but real) ones like Ladin and Rhaeto-Romansh. I think this should be deleted.

What does everyone else think? @Yngvadottir, HyperGaruda, Lectonar, Elinruby, Jac16888, Largoplazo, De728631, AeAnBr, BananaCarrot152, and Icarus of old:? Is there any such thing as "Austrian Romance"? Mathglot (talk) 07:33, 9 August 2017 (UTC)[reply]

Okay, I'm getting further tracking this down. So far, I've tracked this to Spanish user MassimoCanepa who created the article es:Lengua romance austríaca in 2012, and also created es:Lengua romance del Mosela. There's also a similar situation with Moselle Romance (which credits the German and Afrikaans version as its origin.) The German article Moselromanische Sprache was created by Ingh 10 Dec 2004, and spoke of "isolated pockets of roman speakers" who still remained in Gallia Belgica after it was overrun by the Franks following the fall of the Roman empire, and lasted till the 11th century. ("Trotz dieser Sprachüberlagerung überlebten einige romanische Sprachinseln bis ins 11. Jahrhundert.")

To my knowledge, no linguists or language classification system of Romance languages recognizes language names such as "Austrian Romance" or "Moselle Romance". Imho, these are merely descriptive terms, invented here.

So, I think what we have here are at least two, and possibly more articles which were given what amounted to descriptive names by Wikipedia editors, at an early point where policies and guidelines about article titles were weak or did not exist. So, the articles ended up with names that look like language names now, "Moselle Romance" and "Austrian Romance" that were perhaps never meant to be so. I think what should probably happen now, is that these two (and any other such articles) should all be merged into one article with a title that is clearly descriptive, such as Pockets of Roman speakers in post-Roman Europe, and then just have sections named after the geographic areas where there were such pockets.

Am continuing to look into it, but that's my current status on this. Mathglot (talk) 08:52, 9 August 2017 (UTC)[reply]

This is not one of my fields. But I couldn't find sources in the Spanish Wikipedia article justifying the text. The Catholic Encyclopedia article is just about Rupprecht of Salzburg (d. 718) and all I see in it that is possibly relevant is the statement that Juvavum (Salzburg) was "still a place of commerce" when he arrived there. If there's anything about language, I missed it. In any case that's considerably earlier than the 11th century. The reference to the 1904 journal article (also listed in the Bibliography) says clearly that the Roman settlers of north Noriacum were evacuated to Italy by Odoacer in 488. While there is a statement about southern Noriacum continuing Romanized after that point, looking at the borders given in our article (I told you this was not one of my fields) that would appear to refer to areas south of modern Austria. The one potentially important reference is to the Festschrift for Gernot Piccottini, titled Carinthia Romana und die Römische Welt (ISBN 9783854540984). The Spanish article asserts that it is Piccottini's theory that pockets of Latin survived in Austria until the 11th century. I was unable to find anything by searching his name on Google Scholar and the parts of JSTOR to which I have access, and I can't find a list of contents of the Festschrift that might suggest what part of it the Spanish Wikipedia reference refers to, whether the introduction or an article. The most possibly relevant of his publications as listed in his article on German Wikipedia is Die Römer in Kärnten (1989), but my admittedly fast searches turn up no trace of his having put forward such a theory. I think this should be AfDed. Yngvadottir (talk) 14:53, 9 August 2017 (UTC) P.S. See also African Romance. Yngvadottir (talk) 14:55, 9 August 2017 (UTC)[reply]

According to my knowledge and research, there is no such substantiated genre by nationality in this instance. All best. Icarus of old (talk) 15:54, 9 August 2017 (UTC)[reply]

For the record: note the similar discussion at Talk:Moselle Romance. Mathglot (talk) 08:25, 13 August 2017 (UTC)[reply]

Sockpuppetry[edit]

I find the section at the very top by Rhaeto quite similar to the one at Talk:Pannonian Romance by Paul0559 (talk · contribs · count), a globally blocked sockpuppet. Coincidence? Note that there was an Italian version at it:Lingua romanza austriaca, but that one was deleted in 2013 by Vituzzu with a summary stating "Brunodam". Brunodam, as it turns out, is also blocked for sockpuppetry. Perhaps that Vituzzu can elaborate on this ominous edit summary? --HyperGaruda (talk) 15:35, 9 August 2017 (UTC)[reply]

Yep, account locked and article tagged with db-g5. --Vituzzu (talk) 15:51, 9 August 2017 (UTC)[reply]

Courtesy notice of deletion of Austrian Romance:

16:18, 9 August 2017 DoRD (talk · contribs) deleted page Austrian Romance (G5: Created by a banned or blocked user (Brunodam) in violation of ban or block (TW))

Proposed move of userfied page to article Talk space[edit]

Much of the material currently on this page is highly relevant to Talk:Moselle Romance, and I'm thinking it would make more sense as a subpage there, either as an Archive page, or as a non-Archive named subpage, so I'd like to move it there.

As I write, this page is located at User talk:Mathglot/Austrian Romance, after having been userfied at my request from Talk:Austrian Romance in August 2017. I can do the move myself, but just wanted to check with DoRD, to see if you see any problem with such a move. I would likely place it either at Talk:Moselle Romance/Austrian Romance, or Talk:Moselle Romance/Archive 1, and would add an orange box (like the one at the top of this page) to make its provenance clear.

Any objection or other thoughts? Mathglot (talk) 02:10, 5 January 2018 (UTC)[reply]