User talk:Navistheman

Question for administrator

Hello. I am new to Wikipedia and not particularly good with computers and editing scripts, etc., to make automatic functions. I have created a page about the Bhaya language but I can only call it 'Bhaya'. I am unable to move it to 'Bhaya language' as that name is erroneously redirected to another page. Please help me to delete that redirect. Thanks for your help. --Navistheman (talk) 10:50, 10 May 2016 (UTC)

I have moved the article you created to Bhaya language, deleting the redirect. The editor who uses the pseudonym "JamesBWatson" (talk) 20:37, 10 May 2016 (UTC)

Thank you so much for your help. Just one more thing, please, if you can help me. Harauti is erroneously titled as a 'dialect' when it is in fact a seperate language in it's own right. Could you help me to rename/move the page? It says I cannot do so without the assistance of an administrator. Thank you. https://en.m.wikipedia.org/wiki/Harauti_dialect Navistheman (talk) 10:03, 11 May 2016 (UTC)

There is no objective way to separate the concepts "dialect" and "language", and, as you no doubt know better than I do, in India there is often heated and antagonistic argument over which term to use for a particular local speech, frequently motivated less by any linguistic concerns than by the infantile mental disorder variously known by names such as "nationalism", "tribalism", and so on. My searches indicate that Harauti is variously described as either a language or a dialect, with if anything a preponderance for "dialect" in the most reliable sources. (For example, it is referred to as a dialect in "People Of India: Rajasthan" by by K. S. Singh, and in "Land And People of Indian States & Union Territories (Rajasthan)", edited by S. C.Bhatt & Gopal K Bhargava. http://glottolog.org/resource/languoid/id/hara1256 also describes it as a dialect.) In the absence of a clear consensus among reliable sources that the "language" is preferred over "dialect", I can see no justification for changing the title from the present one. The editor who uses the pseudonym "JamesBWatson" (talk) 11:22, 11 May 2016 (UTC)

Thank you for your help, and I appreciate your concerns re: establishing consensus. However, the most reliable language source on the internet by far, Ethnologue, has Harauti as a seperate language: https://www.ethnologue.com/language/hoj

Furthermore, the second source you provided (Glottolog) automatically takes some of it's data from Ethnologue (and vice-versa) - and that also has Harauti as a seperate language under an alternate name (Hadothi/Hadoti) as it is listed in bold. Hadothi/Harauthi/Hadoti, etc., are all interchangeable names, and the position of 'Harauti' in a dialect section is probably a consequence of accidental automatic scripting - or a reference to a standardised variety of the language. (I.E. if you look at some other language entries in Glottolog they may also have repeated entries in the dialect section).

Interestingly enough, what you have said to me actually demonstrates the importance of avoiding Indian sources on this matter. This is because you will often find in Indian sources, especially outdated ones, that the term 'dialect' is erroneously applied to regional languages such as Marwari and Bhojpuri. These are either innocent mistakes (sometimes 'dialect' is misunderstood and wrongly assumed to be synonymous with 'language', or that a series of closely related languages must somehow constitute 'dialects' of some sort) or perhaps indicative of a political agenda, like you mentioned. For example, Rajasthani languages were conflated with Hindi, but this has been empirically invalidated thanks to objective referencing and research from likes of Glottolog and Ethnologue.

Also, this particular page on Wikipedia has an 'infobox', which, as far as I know, are only used for clear-cut languages - not dialects.

Doing this article and Wikipedia justice requires a name change, in accordance with Ethnologue and Glottolog. I really hope you will think about this. Again, please check the Ethnologue and Glottolog entries - Harauti has a seperate language page on the former, and a seperate language entry on the latter (under an alternate name). Other than that, have a nice day and bless you for your help.

Navistheman (talk) 14:53, 11 May 2016 (UTC)

Prompted by your latest post on my talk page, I have looked at the history of this article. I had assumed that the existing title reflected what editors who created and developed the article thought it should be called, and your request was just a single editor's view. However, I have found that that is not the case at all. The original title of the article was Harauti language, and it remained there until one editor, without, as far as I can see, any discussion or consultation, moved it. That editor then proceeded to move it rapidly to a number of different titles, one after another, which resulted in a very confusing article history, and it took me quite a while to trace it back to its original title. It now seems to me that (a) the subject is, as you rightly pointed out, commonly regarded as a language, (b) the treatment as a dialect is due to one Wikipedia editor acting alone, contrary to the consensus view of those who had contributed to the article before that editor decided to take control. I have therefore moved the article back to its original title, Harauti language. Thank you for giving me the further information which prompted me to look into this again, which resulted in this decision. I hope what I have done is satisfactory, but please do contact me again if you have any need to. The editor who uses the pseudonym "JamesBWatson" (talk) 18:46, 11 May 2016 (UTC)

Again, thank you for your diligence. I really appreciate a conscientious and reasonable administrator, such as yourself, taking the time out to assist me on this matter (and several others). How do I award you a barnstar? Do I just copy the script onto your talk page?

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Missing cite in Wadiyara Koli language

The article cites "Masica (1991)" but no such source is listed in bibliography. Can you please add? Also, suggest installing a script to highlight such errors in the future. All you need to do is copy and paste importScript('User:Svick/HarvErrors.js'); // Backlink: [[User:Svick/HarvErrors.js]] to your common.js page. Thanks, Renata (talk) 03:51, 22 October 2020 (UTC)

Thanks, this has now been corrected. I was using another language's phonology-table as a template, and it seems there was a citation accompanying one of the data entries. This has now been located and removed. Thanks for your help. Are there any other cool scripts that you use, or would recommend, if you don't mind me asking? Thanks again. Navistheman (talk) 07:57, 22 October 2020 (UTC)

Powari

Hi! I've restored Powari tongue and I've asked for it to be renamed to Powari language. In the meantime, is there anything you would like to change in the article? – Uanfala (talk) 18:15, 27 October 2020 (UTC)

Thanks for your help. I initially used "tongue" as a sort of interim title for the article while the dispute was ongoing. Now going to work on updating the dialectology for this and other IA languages; some of them are vestigial and/or interchangeable with others, I believe. Navistheman (talk) 09:51, 10 November 2020 (UTC)

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Indic Script

- Please do not add any Indic script, to any of our India related articles, as you did at Gurdas Maan, as this contravenes WP:NOINDICSCRIPT - Thank you - Fylindfotberserk (talk) 15:41, 20 January 2021 (UTC)

Sure, apologies for the transgression. A couple of questions, if I may?

1) How am I able to determine which is an India-related article, and which isn't? 2) Am I permitted to provide the Indic/Brahmic spelling of names for diaspora personages; similar to how the Nastaliq has been added for many of their Pakistani-origin counterparts?

Many thanks Navistheman (talk) 15:48, 20 January 2021 (UTC)

You have to make sure that the supposed diaspora person is not an Indian citizen. For example you can add Indic Script in Vikram Chatwal article, that is WP:NOINDICSCRIPT doesn't apply in that, but you cannot add that in an article of a person who still holds Indian citizenship for example a Permanent Residence holder in Canada that still is an Indian citizen. - Fylindfotberserk (talk) 16:24, 20 January 2021 (UTC)

Thanks for clarifying, will do. Does seem slightly arbitrary, however. What if they're dual-nationals? And what about religious figures, or historical Indian personalities predating 1947? Many thanks, once again Navistheman (talk) 16:33, 20 January 2021 (UTC)

Just clarifying - I can add Gurmukhi for Vikram Chatwal; but not his father, who is an Indian citizen? Navistheman (talk) 17:21, 20 January 2021 (UTC)

(edit conflict) India doesn't allow dual citizenship. As for the ones who died prior to partition, it is OK for people associated with modern Pakistan and Bangladesh, but not for the ones associated with the Indian part of the country. Compare Muhammad Ali Jinnah and Mahatma Gandhi. Also if a person is born in the Pakistani/Bangladeshi part of then India, but died as a citizen of Republic of India, WP:NOINDICSCRIPT applies and we are not suppose to add that. This policy applies to everything India related except religious stuff like temples, holybooks, deities and of course language and script articles. - Fylindfotberserk (talk) 17:24, 20 January 2021 (UTC)

Understood, thank you for clearing it up. Navistheman (talk) 17:35, 20 January 2021 (UTC)

Is Sarbjit Cheema a Canadian citizen? - Fylindfotberserk (talk) 07:45, 19 February 2021 (UTC)

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