User talk:Peleahi

Elizabeth Sumner

You made some changes to Elizabeth Keawepoʻoʻole Sumner recently. Can you please go back and add reference and cite the additions and changes you made? Thank you. KAVEBEAR (talk) 06:01, 23 May 2020 (UTC)

I am new at this and have not figured out exactly how to do everything or what I am supposed to do. I am guessing that this is where I answer you. I am Kapekaʻs great granddaughter, have been doing our genealogy for 40 years and thought it was time to fix some of the incorrect information. I am thinking that you put her photo back on to the page. I donʻt know why it was lost when I made the change to her name and added her death date. If it was you, thank you. I was going to have to figure out how to replace it. I have also been wondering if you are a family member. I am working on more fixes, but I have to be absolutely certain before I make any changes. — Preceding unsigned comment added by Peleahi (talk • contribs) 20:25, 23 May 2020 (UTC)

Thank you for the clarification. Can we keep communication on your talk page? I am not a descendant but have done research on her and other alii family as well. I appreciate your knowledge but would love to discuss where you are getting the information from so we can cross check where the information is from so can source it. Is your information from oral tradition (what was passed down in the family) or primary sources (unpublished letters or documents) or second sources (books and other published materials). KAVEBEAR (talk) 21:47, 23 May 2020 (UTC)

Let’s discuss each changes below:

1. Where did you get the identity of her second husband and his family? Such as he was a painter and who his ancestress is. Based on your additions, we have to change the name of the article to reflect this. You are saying that Keawepoʻoole was her married name not her birth name. I found some obituary of Lapana from 1924 which does confirm he was a turnkey at the city jail but nothing else that you added including that he was a painter KAVEBEAR (talk) 21:43, 23 May 2020 (UTC)

2. Name change. Keawepoʻoole doesn’t make sense because poʻoole is not a word in Hawaiian while poʻoʻole means headless and was a connate for illegitimate in Hawaiian. Keawe is a common royal name meaning standard like a royal standard. Double oo without the okina was not common in the Hawaiian language. The spelling of poʻoʻole and other variants showing the double okina and three os are from Mary Kawena Pukui’s work.

3. Ching to Q’ing. I am a native Cantonese speaker. Spelling of Cantonese names were standardized in the past. Both spelling works but the second one is archaic and not accepted usage anymore. KAVEBEAR (talk) 21:43, 23 May 2020 (UTC)

4. Her burial at King Street Catholic Cemetery? I haven't been able to locate a gravesite and I asked a friend in Honolulu to locate her grave a few years ago but he found nothing nor does Find a Grave list her. Is her grave unmarked?

Also when you add new information in the future. Here is what you can do. Add <ref>''Name of Source''</ref> to the end of the new information for example. You can link the source or write out the source's name if it is not available online. Mahalo nui. KAVEBEAR (talk) 21:46, 23 May 2020 (UTC)

Welina, Thank you for getting back to me. Itʻs taken a long time for me to come to a place where I feel confident about making changes.

1. Lapana is listed as Lizzieʻs husband in the 1900 census with his occupation being a painter. He is also listed in the 1910 census and both times he and Lizzie were living with Lizzieʻs daughters and their husbands and children.

2) For many years we thought that Lapana had taken her middle name because someone, Iʻd rather not say who, had told our family that was her name. However, another of my cousins has letters written by Liliʻu and Likelike to each other and to Lizzie. Nowhere in any documents have we seen the middle name Keawepoʻoole. I recently found Lapanaʻs genealogy and he was born Lapana Keawepoʻoole. His grandmother was High Chiefess Keawepoʻooleinamoku and it states in the genealogy that they shortened the name. Keawe-poʻo-o-lei-na-moku means "He/She who carries the head lei of Keawe" which is why I took the okina out. I was also told by Aunty Edith McKenzie that the longer name was correct. She was the first to bring it to my attention which made me research the name in the first place.

3. The only reason I put Qʻing is because I am a stickler for using the original names of people and places. I also use Kingdom of Hawaiʻi, Territory of Hawaii and USA etc. Itʻs just important to me that it is understood what period of time our ancestors were born in. I was Told that he and his brother were the last of the Qʻing dynasty, but I have no way to research that.

4) I have Lizzieʻs death certificate which states that she is buried at King Street, News articles mention a parade down King Street and my father and his siblings used to go there to take flowers to her grave. Kahaʻi Topolinski, my cousins and I, all believe that all three Tahitian princesses are there along with Lizzie, William and John Sumner. Evidently there was a fire that destroyed all the records for that cemetery. — Preceding unsigned comment added by Peleahi (talk • contribs) 01:02, 24 May 2020 (UTC)

Thank you for the answer. I am moving your response here again to keep things in the same place.

1. I cited the 1900 and 1910 census. I found obituaries for Lapana dated to 1928 showing he remarried to Julia Keawepooole.

2. I see now. The hyphens make it more understandable. Keawe-poʻo-o-lei-na-moku means a lot of sense. Yes, I haven't seen reference to the name for Elizabeth other than her obituaries or when she was in her second marriage while Lapana's obituary does list his surname as Keawepooole. Makes more sense that Elizabeth adopted her husband's surname after her second marriage.

3. Ok I see. Yeah, but original names for the Chinese community in Hawaii were never standardized. I have done a lot of research on Achuck's business partner Chun Afong. Q'ing or Ching would have possibly been an English spelling of the surname Cheng (surname) (程), that is my best guess based on 19th century transliteration of Cantonese. The Qing Dynasty were ruled by Northern nomadic barbarians from the Aisin Gioro family. Achuck's family were commoners from southern China. I think I will work on a separate article for him in the future, but just to let you know the Qing Dynasty angle is probably misleading.

4. Oh I see. Thank you for that. I located the death certificate here. I assume her family didn't pay for a stone marker for her burial and her grave is unmarked at King Street.

5. What do you mean by "Lapanaʻs genealogy"? Is that published information, primary source, or oral tradition passed down by family. Thank you so much. KAVEBEAR (talk) 04:05, 24 May 2020 (UTC)

6. What is the source for the alternative name for her mother as "Haa Maore"?

7. I am going to move the article to correct the mistake in the name. Do you think the article should just be Elizabeth Sumner? KAVEBEAR (talk) 04:05, 24 May 2020 (UTC)

So, I just figured out that this is probably where I answer you.

1. Yes, I found Lapanaʻs grave about 20 years ago and met two of his children by Julia there. They had no idea that he had been married before.

2. It was actually knowing that for many reasons, my great grandfather would not have named his daughter "illegitimate" that got me wondering about her name. I had to research.

3. Thank you, thank you! I have wondered about "Cheng" being the actual name but wasnʻt sure. Bob Dye is married to a cousin of ours and of course I read his books, but also thought them a wee bit biased. The reason for this is that according to family stories he was extremely wealthy when he came to Hawaii and was a very good friend of Kalākaua, who used to borrow money from him. We have also been told that he was the money man when he and Afong became partners. Then, several years ago my sister met a woman who was with the Chinese Historical Society who told her that he and his brother where from the Qʻing Dynasty. It made sense to me because he had money. But then, what you say makes sense too. I believe that he was Hakka and have been told that besides having two wives in China he also had one in San Francisco.

4) None of us remember if we were told there was a tombstone. We believe that the three Tahitian princess, Lizzie and Mauli Keawepoʻoole are in the same tomb as that is where our parents were taken to leave flowers and the family stories.

5. I have found several different families genealogies that have Lapana and his grandmother Keawepoʻoole in them and show his marriage to either Lizzie or Julia, or both.

6. Haa Maore was her birth name, Mauli is Hawaiianized. I have known this my whole life as I am named after her. Also, I have our Tahitian Genealogy written and given to our family by our cousins Princess Genevieve Maiarii Clark and Princess Takau Pomare. I also have the genealogy written by my grandmother Princess Mauli.

At this time I do think it should just be Elizabeth Sumner.