User talk:Phantomsteve/Archives/2009/July

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Economy table[edit]

Thanks for your help with the table. It seems to be the </TR> closing tags that fixed the problem (I did some more experimenting in the sandbox). I seem to recall reading somewhere that a new line automatically closes a <TD> element, so the absence of </TD> tags in this case was probably ok. Indeed, in the sandbox, I took them out and the table was still alright. When I took the </TR>'s out, however, the old problem recurred, although in a different place! I'm still curious as to why the table worked as HTML directly in my browser, but not as wiki markup. Also, if the </TR>'s are necessary, why did the table work at all without them? These are rather technical questions, I don't expect you to beat your brains answering them, I'm just musing. -- Ong saluri (talk) 01:30, 6 July 2009 (UTC)[reply]

Bazedoxifene[edit]

Hi there, thank you for your recent edits to bazedoxifene. I do have one question—the Merck Index notes the CAS number of bazedoxifene as 198481-32-2 (if you don't have access, just do a quick Google search of "CAS 198481-32-2" or check page 3 of this document). Why did you remove it? Best wishes, Fvasconcellos (t·c) 01:49, 8 July 2009 (UTC)[reply]

Hi, I removed it because when I went to CAS using the link, it was showing as not existing. However having found it on a couple of the CAS searching sites, I'll put it back in. PhantomSteve (Contact Me, My Contribs) 02:10, 8 July 2009 (UTC)[reply]
OK, thanks for clearing that up. Best wishes and happy editing! Fvasconcellos (t·c) 01:07, 9 July 2009 (UTC)[reply]

wow.. thanx!!![edit]

thanx alot phantom steve you are a great help!! but eish... ive been reading for hours now, it feels like it will take forever to understand wikipedia!The.blurrz (talk) 18:11, 14 July 2009 (UTC)[reply]

cool beanz..[edit]

i'll keep you posted with my questions(there are many)THANX!!!The.blurrz (talk) 18:29, 14 July 2009 (UTC)[reply]

Sotomayor talk page[edit]

thanks for your reply to what I'd posted on the Sotomayor talk page. I had understood a talk page to be just that: a place to discuss the article. Someone had deleted my words within minutes of my posting. Deleting is assuredly not discussing. I think I will go ahead and seek sources, as you suggest. Some things, such as whether language in the article is biased, cannot be sourced. I suppose I should create an account for this as well. It should be an interesting experience. —Preceding unsigned comment added by 71.181.242.155 (talk) 20:11, 14 July 2009 (UTC)[reply]

Monsters Inside Me[edit]

What cleanup needs to be done to Monsters Inside Me? Iowateen (talk) 20:07, 15 July 2009 (UTC)[reply]

I made the name of the series be in italics and I added [sic] to a reviewer's spelling mistake. I think that is all that I needed to do. Iowateen (talk) 20:20, 15 July 2009 (UTC)[reply]
I looked in the manual of style and I don't see how the article looks wrong. I think that it might just be based on your opinion. Iowateen (talk) 21:26, 15 July 2009 (UTC)[reply]
A bit of rewriting? You removed 99% of what I typed. Iowateen (talk) 22:08, 15 July 2009 (UTC)[reply]
I started combining both of our work into the article. Iowateen (talk) 22:16, 15 July 2009 (UTC)[reply]

help needed![edit]

Hi! Thank you for your help. I am new at Wikipedia and I´m experiencing some newcomers frustration! For example, I´m still not sure how to add an infobox or a picture to the article (I would very much like to do so). I own rights regarding the copyrights of both the text and the photograph I intend to upload.

Regarding the citations you mentioned, doesn´t the "press releases" section work? It has links to official sites where Carlos Lascano´s work has been featured, or pages where he has been interviewed.

(Why is my article now starting with a semicolon?) —Preceding unsigned comment added by NindëFaelivrin (talk • contribs) 23:12, 15 July 2009 (UTC)[reply]

I would very much appreciate your help in achieving a good first article.

Nindë. —Preceding unsigned comment added by NindëFaelivrin (talk • contribs) 23:10, 15 July 2009 (UTC)[reply]

Mainly known as Director...

Thank you so much for your help! Let me know how I can provide you with the picture, or if I can later add it to the infobox —Preceding unsigned comment added by NindëFaelivrin (talk • contribs) 23:24, 15 July 2009 (UTC)[reply]

Speedy Deletion Converted to PROD: Jackobillia[edit]

Hello Phantomsteve, and thanks for your work patrolling new changes. I am just informing you that I have changed a page you tagged (Jackobillia) from being tagged for speedy deletion to being tagged for proposed deletion. The speedy deletion criteria are very narrow to protect the encyclopedia, and do not fit the page in question. Please review the criteria for speedy deletion before tagging further pages. If you have any questions or problems, please let me know. Thanks again! - Jarry1250 [ humorous – discuss ] 15:30, 16 July 2009 (UTC)[reply]

Firstly, the article will get deleted, t'is a certainty. In this case though, A3 doesn't apply; for example, "Worldwide the jackobillia is valued at about $10 billion" is some substantive content (regardless of the quality of it!). Thusly the article falls through the cracks of CSD and must be PRODed. Hope that Bold texthelps, - Jarry1250 [ humorous – discuss ] 15:42, 16 July 2009 (UTC)[reply]
Good question. I would be inclined, if removing the material is not a priority (not a copyvio or anything), to leave it to go when the article does. That being said, 30 seconds tidying would be of loss to no-one - just don't waste time on it would be my advice, I guess. - Jarry1250 [ humorous – discuss ] 16:01, 16 July 2009 (UTC)Bold text[reply]
FYI, "Other artists (such as Elvis Presley, The Beatles, etc) do not have a page about memorabilia..." is not a good line of attack, per WP:OTHERSTUFFEXISTS. - Jarry1250 [ humorous – discuss ] 16:40, 16 July 2009 (UTC)[reply]

Carlos Lascano[edit]

Very nice work cleaning this up -- table code is one of the many things that I need to figure out but you nailed it. Just one suggestion - the subheadings look a little out of place squashed up on the left as table cells. May look better as a regular level 3 heading. Thanks. – ukexpat (talk) 00:51, 17 July 2009 (UTC)[reply]

Article editing[edit]

Hi! Thank you so much for taking the time to check my article, and I´m so so sorry for changing it. I was trying to correct some things that turned out mispelled (like muertos comune´s.... it is "muertos comunes", or "inspiration"), and accidentally erased the whole thing. I am so sorry.

I understand what you mean about being unable to verify the awards. Most of the festivals don´t have websites, and some of the ones that do, don´t keep always track of past years. However, "Marionettes" Worldfest award, for example, is on the Worldfest website, in the archive of past years (1998).

Thank you so much for helping me with the article, and sorry for the inconveniences caused. There´s no such thing as a "Happy editing" for Wikipedia newcomers!

NindëFaelivrin (talk) 14:54, 17 July 2009 (UTC)[reply]

ACC acount creation interface request[edit]

I have requested an account on the ACC account creation interface, and am just awaiting confirmation. Phantomsteve (talk) 09:10, 16 July 2009 (UTC)[reply]

I have receive the account. Thanks PhantomSteve (Contact Me, My Contribs) 17:28, 18 July 2009 (UTC)[reply]

i need to change the title of an article[edit]

hi could you help me how to change the title of an article that I already submitted? Thanks a lot. —Preceding unsigned comment added by Youaregood (talk • contribs) 17:45, 18 July 2009 (UTC)[reply]

Kim[edit]

SD's been declined. Can't really see many people looking him up, anyway..... Ta for your message, but I ain't no expert in the more arcane procedures! If they really want to change the name, they just need to Move it to the new title. Peridon (talk) 21:58, 18 July 2009 (UTC)[reply]

deleting wiki pages[edit]

It was an article on Merchant Equity Partners, and it was completely accurate. it was deleted by Nja 247. —Preceding unsigned comment added by Bobsyeruncle33 (talk • contribs) 15:44, 20 July 2009 (UTC)[reply]

Response left on Help Desk, as that is where Bobsyeruncle's original query was. Also left {{talkback}} on Bobsyeruncle's talk page.PhantomSteve (Contact Me, My Contribs) 16:21, 20 July 2009 (UTC)[reply]

RAK Barnstar[edit]

I agree with the award, I saw the comment and thought it was a nice thing to do, but it didn't occur to me to award a barnstar (I feel I'm too new to be doing that yet, but will). --SPhilbrickT 21:27, 20 July 2009 (UTC)[reply]

Thank you[edit]

Thank you! But I didn´t do it all by myself... it was almost as frustrating as writing the article! But let´s say that I got "a little help from my friends." Thank you so much for all your help and support... I´ll let you know if I ever dare to write another article! NindëFaelivrin (talk) 15:26, 21 July 2009 (UTC)[reply]

oh wow![edit]

hi, I just noticed the barnstar you added to my page. Thanks so much!!!!! Agradman talk/contribs 17:34, 21 July 2009 (UTC)[reply]

Re: Jackobillia.[edit]

Hi Steve; Would be good to have more time to develop the article, but failing that parharps we can merge it into "michael Jackson , as the subject is of great interest to millions both michael jackson's fans worldwide as well to many collectors of jackobillia —Preceding unsigned comment added by Jomoal99 (talk • contribs) 11:06, 22 July 2009 (UTC)[reply]

Message from Palengkero[edit]

g'day Phantomsteve,

hope all is well with you. yes, i am responding regarding your message sir. first let me explain. as soon as i saw your message, i went berserk hahaha. so i went again to your help desk and mentioned my angst and pangs there. if you go to Help Desk, you can read my message there. someone told me that anyone can edit my work so i deleted your message in my article. am so sorry, very sorry i misunderstood everything until i clicked your userpage.

well, let me start. dya know that my article had been edited by a couple of editors in the past since i submitted my artcle to wikipedia. i followed all their messages. Originally, "the Transformation" was long but some editor removed them and footnoted it with (Number 1). i was saddened at the time but i respected that editor because he or she wanted it that way. My article had been edited for a couple of times and replied to all the messages there until they got what they want. my article has never been edited for quite sometime until "ukexpat" help me kindly in inserting the image or logo of my alma mater. i uploaded some images a couple of months ago and forgot all about it. i thought by uploading photos, they go automatically to my artcile but at the time i didnt know about your logo templates. it was ukexpat who inserted that logo for me. it's so nice of him. meantime, the other day i read in the internet news from the philippines that my notable alumnus by the name of Nelson Nario was moved from his post in the Isabela Province to Mindanao in the philippines. hence, i edited his update in a short sentence based from what i had read to update also my article with Wikipedia.

i have never entered anything in the history of my alma mater because i thought all had been resolved from the couple of editors that edited my work in the past. As ya know, i am too frightened to touch the history because it had been edited a couple of times in respect to the editors of wikipideia who helped me and were very helpful. what you have read there were purely edited by your fellow editors. even the references were fixed by your editors because i could not access the "reference page" and asked them for help in your Help Desk.

i dont live in the philippines anymore for some three decades now and everything that was written in my article are referenced and based on current information. it was purely research and from my recent contact with fellow alumni who are also based overseas. i am just also helping my alma mater lift its standard a bit. as you know, i went to a "public market" high school and i feel the need to share something to my poor ole school (tears). i was a pioneer student of the school and i was one of the creator of the school publication there. modesty aside, i am also the first managing editor of the school.

I can be contacted through ************ to discuss further the issues.

Thank for visiting my artcle and my personal regards to you.

sincerely,Palengkero (talk) 07:44, 22 July 2009 (UTC)[reply]

  • Phantomsteve, i read your article overnight titled Thornton Heath, a place in Croydon where you live. is that your contribution? good article. so, you are an educator. i reckoned you should come and teach here (where i live now). Good writers and educators like you are in demand here and they are well-paid too. dya know that we have a place here called Croydon? Palengkero (talk) 00:21, 23 July 2009 (UTC)[reply]

List of Easy COmpany Veterans[edit]

Hi Steve, thank you for answering all of my questions and being kind. If I attempt to nomiinate my article once, and fails, am I eligible for a second try, or one and thats it, succeed or fail? Signed- User:NickOrnstein 00:40, 23 July 2009 (UTC)[reply]

PDF[edit]

Hi Steve. I've responded at my talk page. Could you take another look at it? Thanks a lot, --The Magnificent Clean-keeper (talk) 00:46, 23 July 2009 (UTC)[reply]

Test of Talkback[edit]

If it worked, Magnificent, you should have ended up here! PhantomSteve (Contact Me, My Contribs) 00:53, 23 July 2009 (UTC)[reply]

Account creation tool[edit]

Note that the last request you handled, #33676, should not have been denied as too similar, but should have been created by someone with the account creator right. Please read the instructions for more info, and keep that in mind when handling requests in the future. If you have any questions, feel free to join us on IRC: #wikipedia-en-accounts. Prodego talk 01:33, 23 July 2009 (UTC)[reply]

I'm sure you will! Feel free to join us on IRC if you wish, we would love to have you there. Otherwise, cheers! Prodego talk 01:49, 23 July 2009 (UTC)[reply]

Hello Phantomsteve[edit]

I read your message and thanks. 15 years of teaching? amazing! i think i have to salute you for that. you are most welcome here if you consider returning to the most noble profession. Your description of Thornton Heath in your Croydon there is quite similar to our Croydon here, realtywise our Croydon is "upclass" pretty much unaffordable (for people like me) because it is so close to the CBD and amenities (and rich in history too). i used to live in a suburb beside Croydon where we rented a flat some years ago. anyhow, thanks for welcoming me to editing. i still have to explore the technical guidelines on how to edit wikipedia though. i look forward to reading more of your future contributions here. Palengkero (talk) 07:22, 23 July 2009 (UTC)[reply]

Barnstar[edit]

The Invisible Barnstar
For your tireless work in answering questions, great and small, on the Help desk. — QuantumEleven 12:21, 23 July 2009 (UTC)[reply]

Ismael Mathay Sr. High School article[edit]

I'll probably be able to take a look later, but should I not then I'm not going to be contactable again until Tuesday at least. Oh, and I think you accidentally typed the wrong username for the "creator" of the article in your message. If so, you might like to go back and change that before anyone notices. Cheers, - Jarry1250 [ In the UK? Sign the petition! ] 12:31, 23 July 2009 (UTC)[reply]

Re: Jackobilia[edit]

Hi, steve in disputing the fact that there is only one hit for Jackobilia on google there is actually about 776 hits to jackobilia cheers Jomoal99 (talk) 14:28, 23 July 2009 (UTC)[reply]

Question from Tanyavansoest[edit]

Hi Phantomsteve. I posted a question on the help page asking for clarification on how to take an article draft on my user page that I feel is ready for publication as a real article. I know this sounds trivial, but after hours of research I still can't answer this basic question myself! Please help. Frustrated...

Tanyavansoest (talk) 14:09, 23 July 2009 (UTC)[reply]

Hi Phantomsteve,
I know I don't have an article yet on my talk page, but I'm trying to put together a set of guidelines and when I got to that step, I was stumped! It's not clear to me at all how you migrate a draft into article space. Does it require an editors OK? Is it just better to approach it that way, or is it possible to post it directly? I'd really appreciate your help in clarifying this part of the process. THANK YOU. 00:16, 24 July 2009 (UTC) —Preceding unsigned comment added by Tanyavansoest (talk • contribs)

Christ's Hospital Old Blues[edit]

Move it to Old Blues or Old Blues (Christ's Hospital). Christ's Hospital Old Blues is like saying Eton College Old Etonians. —Preceding unsigned comment added by The Twelfth Doctor (talk • contribs) 18:55, 24 July 2009 (UTC)[reply]

Ismael Mathay Sr. High School article[edit]

I replied to your post on my talk page. Beside that, I am beginning to think that Palengkero is George Prado: The whole http://gsisvhsaa.tripod.com/ site was down yesterday. Today it is back, and the Kids in the Attic page has a more restrictive copyright notice, and the bird animation no longer links to the Wikipedia page. —teb728 t c 23:20, 24 July 2009 (UTC)[reply]

thanks[edit]

thankyou for helping me at the help desk:) —Preceding unsigned comment added by Zthatin (talk • contribs) 10:12, 25 July 2009 (UTC)[reply]

Thanks man, I'm not sure how much editing I will do on here though. All the best! —Preceding unsigned comment added by Zthatin (talk • contribs) 10:19, 25 July 2009 (UTC)[reply]

Colin Franklin issue[edit]

I saw your followup questions - while I could post this there, I thought I'd just make a couple points here. You wondered why Colin isn't directly corresponding. Did you catch that he is 82? While my 90 year old father in law uses email, it isn't "natural" to him, and had he been in the same position (seeing something on the internet about him he didn't like), he would ask me. (In fact he walked in the door as I'm writing this and he confirmed. I am mildly concerned that the WP position is that anything can be in a bio if it can be confirmed. I know I need to address this at some bios project page, but I'd like to see us defer to the subjects wishes in the case of living persons, if the matter involves family fact not relating to notability. I see that these have been removed, but they show up on many websites in many locations - WP is understandably a source for many places, we need to make sure we exercise appropriate responsibility. I'm not really trying to debate you on this topic, I guess I'm just practicing. I was also disappointed to see so many unreferenced claims, some unverifiable, in a bio that has been around so long. I'm still new here, and wary of getting into BLP battles, but may have to wade in. I think we need better processes regarding unsourced claims - if nothing else, we should require a moindex tag on bios without references.--SPhilbrickT 14:26, 26 July 2009 (UTC)[reply]

Thanks for the nice response. I no longer have kids at home, and my work is rather intense, so my WP contribution timing is almost the opposite of yours. Regarding inclusion of family in a bio, I understand it is common, but I feel it should not be done over a subjects objection. I fully understand that this position will be opposed, possibly even vociferously, possibly even by you:) I probably won't pursue it at this time, there are too many more important issues to address. Enjoy your time with your kids, a time will come when you look back on their interference with your WP contributions fondly.--SPhilbrickT 16:03, 26 July 2009 (UTC)[reply]

Colin Franklin[edit]

Hi PhantomSteve, I've actually taken a read through your conversation with Sphilbrick (all very fascinating as a relatively new member to wikipedia), and I completely agree with the age issues that are causing me to be used as a proxy. I've spoken to Mr. Franklin again and he is still insistent on removing the article - I've tried to tell him that he was a notable figure in his field and the entry should be seen as a recognition not as a foul, however, it is his personal opinion. Thereby, could we start the process of emailing in the issue? I could ask him to send the email, he is still a fellow with the Institute of Electrical and Electronics Engineers, so his email would be "@ieee.org". If that is not suitable, I could email you for him, I work at the Communications Research Centre Canada (where he did a lot of his work), it's a government research lab under Industry Canada so my email is "@crc.gc.ca". Thanks for your help, and please advise as you see fit. Anandsrivastava2009 (talk) 15:13, 27 July 2009 (UTC)[reply]

Thanks very much for your response. I completely understand what you are saying regarding the balance between personal information and verifiable factual information (awards etc.). I will definitely ask Mr. Franklin to email the Forum with his cause for concern and hopefully they will be able to resolve the issue.
I sincerely appreciate the time you've taken with this article (my apologies, I was out of town for the weekend, so I missed quite a few comments). Cheera!
Anandsrivastava2009 (talk) 15:35, 27 July 2009 (UTC)[reply]

The Wikipedia SignpostWikipedia Signpost: 27 July 2009[edit]

Delivered by -- Tinu Cherian BOT - 12:17, 28 July 2009 (UTC) [reply]

Gila Almagor[edit]

After some editing & rearranging, I believe the article is no longer violating anyone's copyright.--Gilabrand (talk) 14:12, 28 July 2009 (UTC)[reply]

my first article Marsha Martin[edit]

Dear Phantomsteve, I knew I screwed up the tilde thing. I couldn't remember how many it was and I put too many, and after it was done I didn't know what to do. I assume wikipedia is using Hmtl or whatever it's called (I always thought it looked like heavy metal) and I don't know how to use it. Also I've never done anything with the little numbers in the text and the footnotes on the bottom. I am way out of my depth here, as far as formatting goes. There are a couple other authors I know of who have no entries in wikipedia and if I can struggle through, I will write articles for them, too.

I went back and refound my sources (ancestry.com is HARD to refind stuff on) and pasted the address at the top of the page onto my Marcia Martin page. I didn't go back to abe to find listings for the books. There were nearly 1400 books for sale that were by people named Marcia Martin and it took me hours to go through them. Oh wait, I could just search for each title. Shit. Well, I'll go do that now, that would be one abe listing for each book, is that what you want?


Dzitya (talk) 18:57, 28 July 2009 (UTC)[reply]

List of people executed for homosexuality‎[edit]

Hi, I was wondering why you removed the unsourced category from List of people executed for homosexuality‎ when sources have yet to be added? Note that wp:List does mean that sources need to be referenced on the list rather than pointing to other WP articles.—Ash (talk) 05:53, 29 July 2009 (UTC)[reply]

Marker[edit]

Oops..I guess tha I hit a wrong ky. So simply said. Hello. Have a rewarding life and perhaps we can talk?

- a fellow wonderer/wanderer?

Let me put it this way. I practice yoga successffully and Zen has been with me for many years but I often seek, otherwise why am I awake at 3 am?

So by way of a "hi, this is me" intro, I am curious...but wiki is new to me.

Vballboy60 (talk) 07:54, 29 July 2009 (UTC)vballboy60[reply]

Thank you[edit]

Thanks for your contributions on the World Games 2009 article Steve. Keep up the great job ! Arteyu ? Blame it on me ! 08:31, 29 July 2009 (UTC)[reply]

marcia martin sources[edit]

I am very confused by wikipedia. I'm just not a computer person. I left the message wondering how to move the article before I heard from you before. I figured it was something I had to eventually learn! And if no one ever looked at my page, they certainly would when it got moved out into the fast lane. Cause, you know, so many people are crying to know about Marcia Martin.

I did paste the address on the page where the actual photographs of census records are. The trouble with ancestry.com is that you have to be a paying member of it to use it. The US census records themselves are a matter of public record, easily accessed at research libraries in any good sized US city. I don't live in the US, though, so I'm a paying member of ancestry.com to get to them. I don't know if there's any free way to look at census records on the internet.

I got hints from one of the family trees, yes, but I looked at their sources of information (information on the trees are sourced) and went to the originals. I didn't use any information that I found only on a family tree. There really wasn't that much to begin with, and for the purposes of this, we don't care about the ancestry of the person. I am assuming that you don't pay for ancestry.com, and I'm not sure what records outsiders are allowed to see. I know that before I joined, I would occasionally get links to them, but if I tried to maneuver around the site, I was barred.

My information came from the actual census records. When I lived in the states I used to use Case Western Reserve library to see the census. The census is certainly a reliable source, as far as the limitations of the census taker, himself, and his handwriting, etc. Same thing with the draft registration cards. They are photographs of the actual cards. I don't know where else you can access them, I never used them in research before. Had no idea they were out there, and how helpful they could be.

I'm not sure what you want me to do here.

Dzitya (talk) 18:15, 29 July 2009 (UTC)[reply]

Hans Beckert[edit]

WHO'S argument made you change your mind about the hans beckert thing mine or MichaelQSchmidt —Preceding unsigned comment added by Harold.w.coxly (talk • contribs) 21:07, 29 July 2009 (UTC)[reply]

Thank you for your response[edit]

Thanks for responding to my request earlier. The name of my page is Asset Control. I still do not see it. I checked the deleted items but I did not find my article in there. Any advices? Thanks beforehandAssetControl (talk) 22:51, 29 July 2009 (UTC)[reply]

Thanks from Earthlyreason[edit]

.. for pointing out that my talk page note about 'Unreferenced' tags was showing up in the system, and for being respectful. I've fixed it as you suggest, and learned about the 'nowiki' markup in the process. Cheers!
Earthlyreason (talk) 02:49, 30 July 2009 (UTC)[reply]

Top Gear Test Track[edit]

Hi PhamtomSteve, You said that I could come to you if I needed any help. I would like to take you up on that offer. I have a concern about the drawing of the test track for the uk television show Top Gear found here and here and the raw copy is here. The problem is that it is the old design, by memory they stopped using it in 2005 and changed to a longer track thus removing all times and starting the times all over again. I don't know wheather or not you have Google Earth or not but if you simply type in "top gear" in the google earth search it will direcct you straight to the current design of the test track. I have even gone to the trouble of uploading a screenshot for you here. As you can see for yourself is is much different than the one you guys are currently using. So that's my concern if you don't want anything to do with this can you please direct me to someone who will help out on this matter.--Zthatin (talk) 16:20, 31 July 2009 (UTC)[reply]

Yeah for sure i'd like to wait till you are ready if thats ok. In the mean time I can do a drawing of the current track simply by tracing over the one on Googgle Earth. Good Luck with your home duties, Thankyou very much. and thanks again for welcoming me to Wikipedia i've spent quite abit of time reading articles of my interest over the past week. So is it really true that anyone can edit any article they wish?--Zthatin (talk) 20:16, 31 July 2009 (UTC)[reply]
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