User talk:Soetermans/Archive 2018

Conduct of Mister Wiki editors case closed

This arbitration case, for which you were named as a party, has been closed and the final decision is available at the link above.

Please note that you are named in the following remedies:

6.1) Soetermans is prohibited from reviewing articles for creation drafts, or moving AfC drafts created by other editors into mainspace. This restriction can be appealed in 12 months.

8) Soetermans is warned that further breaches of WP:COI will be grounds for sanctions including blocks, in accordance with community policies and guidelines.

For the Arbitration Committee, Mdann52 (talk) 19:40, 7 January 2018 (UTC)

Stop vandalizing articles

Don't remove entire sections from articles, don't make drastic changes without prior talk page discussion (unless they can be construed as "bold editing" as per Wiki rules) and provide better edit messages than "Nuked" without any further explanation. Reading your user page it's painfully obvious you know all about Wikipedia rules so there's no excuse for you to act this way. Since this is your first obvious malicious edit I won't report you to the vandalism board.

This is concerning this edit in particular, which is unacceptable behavior from a paid community member. 2804:431:F705:AE3E:A62:66FF:FE99:6A71 (talk) 18:45, 20 January 2018 (UTC)

Hi 2804:431:F705:AE3E:A62:66FF:FE99:6A71,

I should've used WP:TNT as an edit summary: blow it up and start over. It was a whopping 10,000 characters long plot description, that's why I "nuked" it. That's not vandalism. Also, I'm not being paid by the community. soetermans. ^{↑↑↓↓←→←→ B A TALK} 19:45, 20 January 2018 (UTC)

That section was very long, yes, but in no way "hopelessly irreparable, damaged beyond fixing" as stated in WP:TNT nor it would take "more effort to fix than to start over". In cases where this is open to interpretation please discuss it first on the article's talk page. You cannot perform borderline-vandalism actions and tell us it's actually a Wikipedia-sanctioned way of working. This is most definitely not the spirit or scenario WP:TNT is meant for. 2804:431:F705:AE3E:A62:66FF:FE99:6A71 (talk) 14:27, 21 January 2018 (UTC)

Nomination for deletion of Template:Untappd

Template:Untappd has been nominated for deletion. You are invited to comment on the discussion at the template's entry on the Templates for discussion page. SilkTork (talk) 19:30, 20 January 2018 (UTC)

Solo: A Star Wars Story

Hi, you changed the italics on an external link from "Solo: A Star Wars Story", and the change resulted in the link no longer working: https://en.wikipedia.org/w/index.php?title=Solo%3A_A_Star_Wars_Story&type=revision&diff=817021182&oldid=816996017

I fixed it, Damiantgordon (talk) 17:21, 14 February 2018 (UTC)

Adventure video games

Hey Soetermans, hope everything's going great!

Just passing through. Please don't remove reviews and other important links from the "External links" sections of adventure video game articles. As they are from the 90's and early 00's, it is very hard to locate sources due to lost websites and such. It took a substantial amount of time to collect all of those sources and I would appreciate for my efforts to not be wasted.

In addition, you have removed many reliable reviews in the "Critical Reception" review templates from some articles that I have worked on. Please don't do that.

Thanks! :D--Coin945 (talk) 01:35, 16 February 2018 (UTC)

Hi @Coin945,

Thanks for your friendly message. I'll try to reply later today, I'm on my phone and looking up diffs in different tabs is a pain. soetermans. ^{↑↑↓↓←→←→ B A TALK} 10:18, 16 February 2018 (UTC)

I look forward to getting your reply soon. :)--Coin945 (talk) 03:17, 21 February 2018 (UTC)

Oh hey @Coin945, I haven't found the time to get behind a PC, sorry about that! I see you've reverted a couple of my edits. If I remember, it was more along the lines of that the links could be used as references, instead of bare external links. So reverting is okay, what I took out wasn't inappropriate or anything. If I come across the articles again in the future, I'll message you. soetermans. ^{↑↑↓↓←→←→ B A TALK} 13:00, 21 February 2018 (UTC)

Alice: Madness Returns production budget

You removed production budget from the Alice: Madness Returns page entirely in 2017. . Why didn't you move this information elsewhere instead? The source was reliable, the director and the franchise creator American McGee's comment on Reddit.

Generally every film page has the production budget in the infobox. — Preceding unsigned comment added by Courtesy-of (talk • contribs)

Hi @Courtesy-of:,

That one line in the lead? Even if it's factual, it's not notable to mention. I'm not sure why you're asking about it now: besides the fact that it was in July 2017, it was reverted two weeks later. That the infobox on film articles has a field for a budget has nothing to do with the lead on video game articles. soetermans. ^{↑↑↓↓←→←→ B A TALK} 15:44, 18 February 2018 (UTC)

References

Killer Queen Locations Removal

Hi Soetermans!

I undid your removal of the Killer Queen locations. I know you had cited WP:NOTGUIDE, which I can understand but I wish you had hit up a talk page to discuss it before removing so much content. I'm happy to work on reworking the information on the page but wish we could have talked it out first before so much information was removed. I'll work on making improvements now to see if there's a way I can work in the info on locations without making it feel like a guide. Thanks! :)

Best, Trellar (talk) 20:31, 1 March 2018 (UTC)

Creation Club references on Doomguy and BFG articles.

You've been removing references to Doomguy and the BFG being in Fallout 4's Creation Club. Just because it's a microtransaction that's not already in the game doesn't mean it's not worth mentioning. So what if it's probably not canon to the Doom or Fallout series? It's not like Brutal Doom, which is an unlicensed third-party mod that anyone could download for free. Canon or not, anything that made it into Creation Club is officially sanctioned by Bethesda Softworks, just like how Final Doom was officially sanctioned by id Software (even though they didn't develop it). If it's notable, officially sanctioned, and had some sort of commercial release (that includes digital), then it deserves a mention on the article. 24.167.247.114 (talk) 21:18, 24 March 2018 (UTC)

I'm not talking about canon or whether or not it's "official". Actually, there are no references, as it's unsourced. Without reliable, third-party coverage it can't be added. That you've noticed there's a BFG or Doomguy DLC, is your own conclusion. So far, it looks like a minor detail, not worth mentioning. But if you want to try to find the sources, go ahead. soetermans. ^{↑↑↓↓←→←→ B A TALK} 08:45, 25 March 2018 (UTC)

Upcoming changes to wikitext parsing

Hello,

There will be some changes to the way wikitext is parsed during the next few weeks. It will affect all namespaces. You can see a list of pages that may display incorrectly at Special:LintErrors. Since most of the easy problems have already been solved at the English Wikipedia, I am specifically contacting tech-savvy editors such as yourself with this one-time message, in the hope that you will be able to investigate the remaining high-priority pages during the next month.

There are approximately 10,000 articles (and many more non-article pages) with high-priority errors. The most important ones are the articles with misnested tags and table problems. Some of these involve templates, such as infoboxes, or the way the template is used in the article. In some cases, the "error" is a minor, unimportant difference in the visual appearance. In other cases, the results are undesirable. You can see a before-and-after comparison of any article by adding ?action=parsermigration-edit to the end of a link, like this: https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Arthur_Foss?action=parsermigration-edit (which shows a difference in how {{infobox ship}} is parsed).

If you are interested in helping with this project, please see Wikipedia:Linter. There are also some basic instructions (and links to even more information) at https://lists.wikimedia.org/pipermail/wikitech-ambassadors/2018-April/001836.html You can also leave a note at WT:Linter if you have questions.

Thank you for all the good things you do for the English Wikipedia. Whatamidoing (WMF) (talk) 21:18, 19 April 2018 (UTC)

Nomination of SnackNation for deletion

A discussion is taking place as to whether the article SnackNation is suitable for inclusion in Wikipedia according to Wikipedia's policies and guidelines or whether it should be deleted.

The article will be discussed at Wikipedia:Articles for deletion/SnackNation until a consensus is reached, and anyone is welcome to contribute to the discussion. The nomination will explain the policies and guidelines which are of concern. The discussion focuses on high-quality evidence and our policies and guidelines.

Users may edit the article during the discussion, including to improve the article to address concerns raised in the discussion. However, do not remove the article-for-deletion notice from the top of the article. SmartSE (talk) 17:08, 17 May 2018 (UTC)

Deathgarden

Hey. So, I don't mind restoring the article for you, but only if you intend on cleaning it up right away. I'm not sure if you saw it before it was deleted, but it wasn't really in very good shape. Personally, if it were me, and I were motivated to edit the article, I'd just start from scratch, which at least you could do knowing that neither I nor Bbb23 were be opposed to. It's written more like a wikia/gameguide type thing. But anyways, let me know your thoughts. Sergecross73 msg me 14:30, 23 May 2018 (UTC)

Hi @Sergecross73,

I thought I edited it a bit before, but perhaps I'm mistaken. I have no intention of putting to much effort in it, no. soetermans. ^{↑↑↓↓←→←→ B A TALK} 14:52, 23 May 2018 (UTC)

It looks like you made a singular edit to it a week or so back. Considering its in bad shape and was made by a sock, I think it should remain deleted for now, without any prejudice towards recreation if a non-sock editor goes for it someday. Sergecross73 msg me 15:08, 23 May 2018 (UTC)

Orphaned non-free image File:SnackNationLogo.png

⚠

Thanks for uploading File:SnackNationLogo.png. The image description page currently specifies that the image is non-free and may only be used on Wikipedia under a claim of fair use. However, the image is currently not used in any articles on Wikipedia. If the image was previously in an article, please go to the article and see why it was removed. You may add it back if you think that that will be useful. However, please note that images for which a replacement could be created are not acceptable for use on Wikipedia (see our policy for non-free media).

Note that any non-free images not used in any articles will be deleted after seven days, as described in section F5 of the criteria for speedy deletion. Thank you. --B-bot (talk) 18:19, 26 May 2018 (UTC)

Disambiguation link notification for May 31

An automated process has detected that when you recently edited Fallout (series), you added a link pointing to the disambiguation page Todd Howard (check to confirm | fix with Dab solver).

(Opt-out instructions.) --DPL bot (talk) 09:18, 31 May 2018 (UTC)

Why did you remove the the Youtube channel for the FLOW entry?

I looked at entries for other groups and they had the group's Youtube channel.

Can you please provide a reference as to why that isn't allowed.

Thank you,

Tjfoth (talk) 01:05, 2 June 2018 (UTC)TJFoth

(talk page watcher) WP:ELNO #10 and WP:ELMINOFFICIAL. When linking to the official webpage, we don't link to other official social media sites that are linked from that official website. -- ferret (talk) 01:09, 2 June 2018 (UTC)

Blade Strangers

Hi there! I know you did some cleanup work on the Blade Strangers page a few weeks ago. I just gave it a heavy overhaul, and I was hoping you could spot-check my sources, make sure they're all verifiable? I know there's at least two I'm not sure of, but with one being an official press release and the other being an interview with the publication, I'm not sure there's a suitable substitute. Also, would you be so kind as to replace the existing cover image with the final box art of the game recently revealed by Nicalis? Thanks very much. -- 136.181.195.25 (talk) 17:11, 22 June 2018 (UTC)

Hi 136.181.195.25,

I'm working right now, but I'll try to go over your edits later tonight or tomorrow (I'm at Central European Time). Kind regards, soetermans. ^{↑↑↓↓←→←→ B A TALK} 18:35, 22 June 2018 (UTC)

Much obliged; I really appreciate it. On that note, I found a video interview with the game's producer that clarifies a number of things not listed in any of the other included sources, such as the game's composer (@ 38:56) and how the Heat Up system works (@ 22:33). Obviously, this video probably doesn't qualify under what we would traditionally consider a reliable source, but seeing as how these statements are from a direct interview with the creator, is it acceptable to leave them as part of the article until a more traditional source can be found, such as the game's credits or a review from a major outlet? -- 136.181.195.25 (talk) 20:24, 22 June 2018 (UTC)

Hi 136.181.195.25, the article and sources used look pretty good to me. To prove notability, we need several reliable third-party sources. With Polygon, Destructoid and Game Informer I'd say that's covered. For additional information, official websites and press releases can be used as well. I'm not too familiar with image policy, so I'm afraid I can't help you out with that. While not a reliable source necessarily, I wouldn't discredit the YouTube interview. Hope this helps. Kind regards, soetermans. ^{↑↑↓↓←→←→ B A TALK} 18:29, 23 June 2018 (UTC)

quick note

On noting the lack of reviews for Fortnite, the game is still in early access, so there are no reviews yet (plus , Fortnite BR sorta overshadowed it when it was just getting up to speed). --Masem (t) 13:19, 3 July 2018 (UTC)

AKAs

When a piece of art is commonly known by a shortened title, it should stay in the lead, like at The Avengers (2012 film). Thanks. — Film Fan 17:20, 19 July 2018 (UTC)

Hi @Film Fan:, can you provide a relevant guideline to back up your claim? WP:BOLDSYN says "Only the first occurrence of the title and significant alternative titles (...) are placed in bold" (bold my emphasis). Is shortening Tom Clancy's Jack Ryan to Jack Ryan a "significant alternative title"? To me, dropping Tom Clancy's is not an alternative title. MOS:TVLEAD doesn't mention an "also known as". The IMDb entry says it's released as Jack Ryan in Spain, Germany and Poland. Is that notable to mention? soetermans. ^{↑↑↓↓←→←→ B A TALK} 18:40, 19 July 2018 (UTC)

Of course it's an alternative title. And imdb lists those as "alternative titles" to "Tom Clancy", albeit they are the same, because the primary entry is "Tom Clancy". — Film Fan 18:56, 19 July 2018 (UTC)

Emphasis on "significant", @Film Fan:. How is that a significant alternative title? And what guideline says we should mention the alternative name in three countries? I'm primarily concerned with video game articles. While the full title is The Elder Scrolls V: Skyrim, the lead does not state that it is commonly referred to as just Skyrim, because when reading Skyrim there's no confusion. Same as The Legend of Zelda: Ocarina of Time, it doesn't mention that is commonly called "just" Ocarina of Time. soetermans. ^{↑↑↓↓←→←→ B A TALK} 19:13, 19 July 2018 (UTC)

It's significant because it is the WP:COMMONNAME. And like I said, it is not the title in three countries. It is the primary title in almost every country. Also, I don't like video games, which are irrelevant to this conversation, but I will add that those titles you mention are not preceded by possessives, such as this one. Possessives are rarely the common names. — Film Fan 19:20, 19 July 2018 (UTC)

WP:COMMONNAME is for article titles, not a guideline for mentioning other names. But sure, I can imagine it being the common name. But why is it important to make the difference between Tom Clancy's Jack Ryan and Jack Ryan? What WP:GUIDELINE says so? Can you cite one? Also, concerning video games, there's Tom Clancy's The Division. And while it is commonly referred to as The Division, the article doesn't have to mention it, because it's the common name. soetermans. ^{↑↑↓↓←→←→ B A TALK} 19:32, 19 July 2018 (UTC)

One Thousand Children The youtube videos cited contain relevant material and should not be deleted

Dear Soetermans, In One Thousand Children you deleted a section called "Videos." I have put it back again, and added additional lead-in text. Several of these videos present personal testimony that demonstrates the psychological impact of the often traumatic OTC experience. Others of the videos present more background facts. Please do not remove these videoosKacser (talk) 23:13, 9 August 2018 (UTC) again. THANK YOU. Kacser (talk) 23:13, 9 August 2018 (UTC)Kacser

Hi @Kacser:,

For an issue or question about a specific article, using its talk page is preferred. Since you've brought it up on my talk page, I haven't edited the article in a while. I see you removed the {{Essay}} template. It is however still not up to Wikipedia's standards. A section is titled "Holocaust Child Survivors and Hidden Children, OTC similarities to Hidden Children, OTC are Child Survivors of the Holocaust" – that's the name of a section, and it's confusing, vague and redundant. Me removing some links to YouTube videos in the external links section should be your least concern. soetermans. ^{↑↑↓↓←→←→ B A TALK} 00:02, 10 August 2018 (UTC)

Wikipedia:Articles for deletion/List of Game Grumps serials

In regard to the IP user's comment at this AfD, "It’s helpful. If you don’t wanna read it just don’t. Why would anyone care about an article? Do you not have anything better to do" and this edit, I don't believe it is appropriate to strike out the comments of other users in an AfD. (See WP:DISCUSSAFD, which refers to striking out one's own comments when one changes one's mind, but does not say that unsubstantiated votes can be struck.) While I agree that this recommendation was not particularly well thought out, it is for the AfD closer to decide how much weight they might want to give that comment, which hopefully would be "not much". I recommend that you remove the strikeout from that comment. If you want to criticize it, that's fine, but don't strike it out. --Metropolitan90 (talk) 17:28, 30 September 2018 (UTC)

Hi @Metropolitan90:, thanks for your message. You're right, I was overzealous. I read too much into "Do you not have anything better to do". Thanks for undoing my striking in the discussion also. I'll try to keep that in mind next time. soetermans. ^{↑↑↓↓←→←→ B A TALK} 06:27, 1 October 2018 (UTC)

User:Lowtrucks

Hi! This user is edit-warring with me and another user on the Bubble Bobble template because he keeps adding games that ain't part of this series. He just insists in reverting without proving his points and name calling us vandals, so we look like wrong-doing things in here. He also reverts the Psychic Force article with no source to sustain his claims that a puzzle game with this game's characters is part of "Puzzle Bubble". I've noticed that you warned'im since January '16 and he's blocked some time after. Can you help me on this one, please? — Preceding unsigned comment added by 146.164.80.49 (talk) 19:26, 3 October 2018 (UTC)

The IP addresses involved in the dispute all geo-locate to the same location and to the same two ISPs (one a University, the other TELEFNICA BRASIL S.A). I've fully protected the template so that all users involved can stop edit warring and take the discussion to the template's talk page. ~Oshwah~^{(talk) (contribs)} 19:28, 3 October 2018 (UTC)

@Oshwah and Sergecross73: Osh, this is blocked user HÊÚL. who has been block evading to continue edit wars across a couple of nav templates. -- ferret (talk) 19:45, 3 October 2018 (UTC)

Ferret - Oh is it now? This information changes things... I'll investigate, remove the full protection, and apply blocks accordingly... thank you for letting me know this. ~Oshwah~^{(talk) (contribs)} 19:46, 3 October 2018 (UTC)

@Oshwah: Or so the behavioral evidence in being involved in edit wars across 3 related templates would suggest, right? -- ferret (talk) 19:48, 3 October 2018 (UTC)

Ferret - I'm investigating and looking into it now. That's what I meant to say with my statement above - sorry if that confused you. ~Oshwah~^{(talk) (contribs)} 19:51, 3 October 2018 (UTC)

@Oshwah: Not at all. Just want to make sure I didn't jump the gun either. There's a history of disruption on these Square Enix related templates from these IPs and Heul, but possibly two separate individuals. -- ferret (talk) 19:52, 3 October 2018 (UTC)

Ferret - The edit summaries between the user account and the IPs involved with editing Template:Square Enix franchises appear similar, and while I'm not seeing exact similarities with revision text between the account and IPs, the dispute is definitely similar and the timeline fits like a glove. As soon as the block is applied to the account for disruptive editing, an IP from that same geo-location begins editing the template not but 12 minutes later, and it wasn't occurring at all during the time that the user account was active. I'd say that the probability is moderate to high that it's the same person or group of people. This aside, we're talking about very wide ranges that would need blocking. I think the better solution as opposed to that would be to semi-protect the templates involved in the edit warring and dispute. I've done so already to Template:Bubble Bobble series and I see that Template:Square Enix franchises is semi'd as well. If there are other pages, I'd say that this is the best solution. ~Oshwah~^{(talk) (contribs)} 19:58, 3 October 2018 (UTC)

Hey! What've this become? I've just awakened the WP CSI!!!!!!! Sorry for the joke, guys! It seems like you're accusing me of being a clone or some kind of hacker, I don't know, but I've been here for a time. I've lost my old account, but I've returned in the middle of last year, just without a login: https://en.wikipedia.org/w/index.php?title=Shade,_the_Changing_Man&oldid=784303754 (see?). I've already recieved a warning for shared IP 'coz I use the University internet conection, since I haven't got a Pc at home. I hope this clears the things. Best wishes to you all! — Preceding unsigned comment added by 146.164.80.49 (talk) 20:37, 3 October 2018 (UTC)

User:Lowtrucks Again

Hi! This user keeps reverting the Psychic Force article without proving his points that a puzzle game with this game's characters is part of "Puzzle Bubble", like I've said above, and name calling me a vandal, because I undo his unsourced claims. You couldn't help me before, but can you now, please? — Preceding unsigned comment added by 146.164.80.48 (talk) 15:42, 9 October 2018 (UTC)

Hi @Ferret and Oshwah:, might one of you look into the matter? I've run into Lowtrucks a while back, very uncommunicative. However, I'm mostly on my phone nowadays and looking up diffs and stuff is a pain. Thanks. soetermans. ^{↑↑↓↓←→←→ B A TALK} 23:21, 9 October 2018 (UTC)

I slapped a NOTHERE block on him. Years of disruptive unsourced edit warring on his pet topic. -- ferret (talk) 23:30, 9 October 2018 (UTC)

Thank you. — Preceding unsigned comment added by 146.164.80.48 (talk) 17:14, 10 October 2018 (UTC)

AfD Nomination

Hi Soetermans; I noticed that you tagged Talk:The Guild (franchise) for deletion. The AfD template should be placed on the actual article, not the talk page. Thanks! Jmertel23 (talk) 14:28, 11 October 2018 (UTC)

Paid Editing & BLP Guidelines

Hi Soetermans - I found a lot of puffery in a bio you wrote about John Shahidi and wanted to remind you that even if you’re being paid to contribute to Wikipedia the bios you write should still adhere to Wikipedia:Biographies of living persons & Wikipedia:PROMOTION guidelines.

I removed some content, like the separate sections for each celebrity he has been associated. Let me know if you disagree with the changes, but please keep in mind that Wikipedia is not meant for promotional purposes.

Aprude51 (talk) 04:11, 19 October 2018 (UTC)

Wikipedia:Articles for deletion/Defend Ukraine

Please explain your decision. Ped4enko ^(talk) 13:03, 1 November 2018 (UTC)

(talk page watcher)@Ped4enko: His vote seems pretty clear to me. You shouldn't be hounding AFD participants. -- ferret (talk) 14:52, 1 November 2018 (UTC)

Thank you, @Ferret:. @Ped4enko:, if you like to discuss the AfD, we can do so over there. soetermans. ^{↑↑↓↓←→←→ B A TALK} 15:24, 1 November 2018 (UTC)

Sorry!Ped4enko ^(talk) 18:01, 8 November 2018 (UTC)

Disambiguation link notification for November 3

An automated process has detected that when you recently edited History of the Jews in India, you added a link pointing to the disambiguation page Telugu (check to confirm | fix with Dab solver).

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ArbCom 2018 election voter message

Hello, Soetermans. Voting in the 2018 Arbitration Committee elections is now open until 23.59 on Sunday, 3 December. All users who registered an account before Sunday, 28 October 2018, made at least 150 mainspace edits before Thursday, 1 November 2018 and are not currently blocked are eligible to vote. Users with alternate accounts may only vote once.

The Arbitration Committee is the panel of editors responsible for conducting the Wikipedia arbitration process. It has the authority to impose binding solutions to disputes between editors, primarily for serious conduct disputes the community has been unable to resolve. This includes the authority to impose site bans, topic bans, editing restrictions, and other measures needed to maintain our editing environment. The arbitration policy describes the Committee's roles and responsibilities in greater detail.

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More LGD Gaming issues

Requesting comments on the AfD for a recreated LGD Gaming article, as you had commented on the PSG.LGD talk page before. ~ Dissident93 ^(talk) 22:06, 27 November 2018 (UTC)

Cristiano Ronaldo

He is Portuguese, not Spanish. — Preceding unsigned comment added by 2804:431:F708:8C7F:3C03:B00A:5BA2:63D6 (talk) 19:36, 1 December 2018 (UTC)

Obrigado! soetermans. ^{↑↑↓↓←→←→ B A TALK} 20:14, 1 December 2018 (UTC)

Season's Greetings!

Merry Christmas and a Prosperous 2019!

Hello Soetermans, may you be surrounded by peace, success and happiness on this seasonal occasion. Spread the WikiLove by wishing another user a Merry Christmas and a Happy New Year, whether it be someone you have had disagreements with in the past, a good friend, or just some random person. Sending you a heartfelt and warm greetings for Christmas and New Year 2019. Happy editing, JOEBRO64 19:41, 24 December 2018 (UTC) Spread the love by adding {{subst:Seasonal Greetings}} to other user talk pages.

Need for Speed: Porsche Unleashed - playstation 1

There seems to be a debate if a game itself can be used as a reliable source. However it's my understanding that a game's manual is considered to be a reliable source, and usually a person can buy a used copy of an old game, including the manual, from an online retailer or fan site. If the platform can also be purchased, then the game itself could be used to verify an article, but this has been debated. On the otherhand, how many readers buy a book (which may be out of print) used as a reliable source for a Wiki article? Another debated reliable source is a video (typically youtube) of actual gameplay. Rcgldr (talk) 17:44, 26 December 2018 (UTC)

Hi @Rcgldr:, I made two edits on the article. This one, with "The game is noted for its extensive information regarding Porsche and its cars" will need a reliable source, independent of the game. Concerning this edit, you can use the game itself for a plot description, but for that section, that would be WP:SYNTH: comparing reliable sources and coming up with our own conclusions. What's definitely not okay is "It is likely that a completely different game engine was used", that's just guessing. soetermans. ^{↑↑↓↓←→←→ B A TALK} 18:27, 26 December 2018 (UTC)

My focus was about "none of the tracks are the same" which could be verified with a game manual. There is/was general community knowledge of the PC game's engines physics (for example the engine and input sampling rate run at 64 hz), and flaws that results in players using unrealistic setups on the cars to exploit the flaws, but I don't anything about the PS1 physics engine. Perhaps the author of that section may notice the edit and respond. Rcgldr (talk) 06:06, 27 December 2018 (UTC)

"The game is noted for its extensive information regarding Porsche and its cars" will need a reliable source, independent of the game. The game includes detailed descriptions including performance stats for 80 Porsche cars from the pre-1950 Porsche 356 to the 2000 Porsche 911 (996) Turbo and some race cars (550, 935, GT1). These could be compared with the actual specs for those cars from various sources, but I don't know if specs could be found for all 80 cars. It's possible that a game review site may have made that statement, but I don't know if that qualifies as a reliable source. However, I don't have an issue with removing that statement. Rcgldr (talk) 06:40, 27 December 2018 (UTC)

Hi @Rcgldr:, "These could be compared with the actual specs for those cars...", that's WP:SYNTH. That guideline says "Do not combine material from multiple sources to reach or imply a conclusion not explicitly stated by any of the sources." A magazine or website (are you familiar with WP:VG/RS? It lists reliable sources for video game articles) that says so can be used. soetermans. ^{↑↑↓↓←→←→ B A TALK} 08:51, 27 December 2018 (UTC)

As mentioned, I don't have an issue with removing that statement. Even if the in game descriptions are 100% accurate, the physics isn't. For example the 935 0 to 60 mph time is stated at 2.8 seconds (which is probably correct), but in game, no car can go 0 to 60 mph in much less than 5 seconds due to flaws or limitations in the games physics (even with modified performance files), and in general. the in game stock performance of the cars don't match the stated specs, the upgrade parts are just made up parts with canned formulas for how they affect performance, and the tuning descriptions don't match how they are implemented, such as what is called toe-in setting instead adjusts understeer / oversteer, or front downforce that does nothing other than slow a car down (increased drag, but no downforce). Rcgldr (talk) 09:25, 27 December 2018 (UTC)

Need For Speed Underground 2 - undo of revision

I noted in my undo that I recommend changing the line "is regarded ..." to "was regarded ...". At the time of release, the key new feature of Underground 2 was free roam. Other new features were more customization options and two more racing modes (street x, underground racing league). I don't know if hydraulics should get a mention, but hydraulics (wheelie) improves launch performance. Underground 1's drag mode also benefited from wheelie setups, but didn't have a hydraulic feature to make a wheelie setup simpler.

Other potential issues - I wouldn't describe optional events as side quests. Each stage has a minimal number of events and includes all event types, and also required visual customization to advance to the next stage (at least one car in a players garage needs to be visually upgraded to advance to next stage). A player doesn't have to run every single event to advance, but there are no "side quests", just the ability to run more of the same type of events that are required to advance to the next stage. Rcgldr (talk) 17:56, 26 December 2018 (UTC)

Hi @Rcgldr:, I don't want to sound rude, but I honestly don't care about NFS. It's just that the article is not okay. "The game is widely regarded as the one of the best games of the series (along with the previous year's Underground) and is remembered for the quality of the gameplay, the length, the endless customization, the interesting side-missions, the graphics and the addition of "Free Roam" is unsourced. Per WP:BURDEN, please find a source that says the game "is widely regarded as the one of the best games of the series" and "is remembered for the quality of the gameplay, the length, the endless customization, the interesting side-missions, the graphics and the addition of "Free Roam"", otherwise just leave it out. soetermans. ^{↑↑↓↓←→←→ B A TALK} 18:40, 26 December 2018 (UTC)

If you don't care about NFS, what prompted your editing of the NFS articles? I agree they do need to be cleaned up, but probably by someone familiar with the specific games. I did a partial clean up on a couple of them, but there doesn't seem to be much interest in the articles, so I haven't spent much time on them, only noticing changes that show up on my watchlist.

As for "widely regarded as one of the best games of the series ... ", wouldn't this be opinion based, even if from a recognized game reviewing web site, much less the EA official forums or other fan forum sites (where you can find a few polls of which games in the NFS series the players thought were best)? Under what circumstances could the phrase "widely regarded as ..." ever be used for a Wiki article? However, the actual features introduced with that game should be included. There are reviews that mention this stuff metacritic , gamespot, ign, and the game manual lists the various event types and describe what's required for career progression. There is also a EA (the developer) approved game guide Prima Official Guide. Rcgldr (talk) 06:25, 27 December 2018 (UTC)

Hi @Rcgldr:,

While I'm no fan of racing games, I like video games quite a bit. And I like editing Wikipedia. Forum polls or user reviews are also not okay (see WP:USERREVIEW). If there's an article on a website that describes the influence of the game years later or if it's consistently ranked high in top [x] video games by reliable sources, then sure, add it. In this case, you could point to Metacritic to say that a particular game in the series has been received better. An official guide can be used to describe a gameplay section, but we like to use sources independent of the subject preferably. Hope this helps. soetermans. ^{↑↑↓↓←→←→ B A TALK} 09:00, 27 December 2018 (UTC)

Example article: thegamer nfs rankings. In that article, Underground 2 placed second, and the article noted that many fans of the NFS series would complain (wanting Underground 2 at the top). However NFS Most Wanted (2005) sold the most copies of any of the NFS series (at least the PC version). NFS World (July 2010 to July 2015), a "free to play" "pay to win" game had the largest player base, millions of player accounts. It was during this time that sales of the NFS series exceeded 100 million copies, so it is or at least was a popular series. For Underground 2, the article does make note of free roam which was introduced in Underground 2 and the improved customization. Apparently that article was used in the Wiki article as it shares some of the same wording, some of which is incorrect. Most Wanted does not have pursuits: some of the factory driver time limited sprint type events that include police cars, but they only try to interfere with the players car to slow it down enough to not reach the end of a sprint within the time limit (you can't get busted as is possible with pursuits in other NFS games). For Underground 2, I don't know what they mean by side quests. Every event type is required to advance, and there is a minimum number of each event type required to advance to the next stage, but a player does not have to run every possible event on the map to advance. Only a few of the events advance the actual story line, so perhaps that is what they mean by side quests, but in this case they're required. Rcgldr (talk) 17:29, 27 December 2018 (UTC)