User talk:Thisismeandhistory
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Ways to improve Michael Oakley[edit]
Hello, Thisismeandhistory,
Thank you for creating Michael Oakley.
I have tagged the page as having some issues to fix, as a part of our page curation process and note that:
Please review WP:NMUSIC.
The tags can be removed by you or another editor once the issues they mention are addressed. If you have questions, leave a comment here and begin it with {{Re|Eagleash}}. Remember to sign your reply with ~~~~. For broader editing help, please visit the Teahouse.
Delivered via the Page Curation tool, on behalf of the reviewer.
Eagleash (talk) 12:09, 18 February 2021 (UTC)
Michael Oakley moved to draftspace[edit]
An article you recently created, Michael Oakley, is not suitable as written to remain published. It appears you may have a COI issue. WP is not an advertising platform, and there is never a requirement for an article to be moved into "main space as new album release is imminent". Please address your possible COI issue, and allow the article to be reviewed through the AfC process. When you feel the article meets Wikipedia's general notability guideline and thus is ready for mainspace, and have addressed the potential COI, please click on the "Submit your draft for review!" button at the top of the page. Onel5969 TT me 14:03, 18 February 2021 (UTC)
@Eagleash: Thanks for your work in ensuring Wikipedia's standards for verifiability and notability in the music space remain high. There is no COI issue here - I do not manage, or am employed by this artist. I appreciate, follow and comment on the music genre Synthwave, in which Michael Oakley is one of the most notable musicians. In all honesty, there couldn't be a more NPOV on this. As for notability, I cited multiple sources to a number of works where the artist has been the subject of non-trivial, published works that are reliable, not self-published, and are independent of the musician himself - The Huffington Post reference being one. Please advise further how you wish for me to improve this draft. Thanks so much! Thisismeandhistory (talk) 13:08, 19 February 2021 (UTC)
- Hello, thank you for your message. It was the editor that moved it back to draft that tagged the page for a possible COI, noy myself. At another point in time I may very well have done that myself. However, you have responded so I think that covers it. Pinging @Onel5969: for courtesy etc. Would point out that there is no 'urgency' as far as Wikipedia is concerned; an album being due for release is not necessarily of import here. The topic is either considered notable — or it isn't! If so, then all well and good, but otherwise it will not be accepted. Eagleash (talk) 13:38, 19 February 2021 (UTC)
- Hi Thisismeandhistory. And thanks for the courtesy ping Eagleash. My only concern regarding COI was the urgency comment, which seemed to indicate that you had a vested interest in seeing the article published. Setting that aside, the issue is with the current sourcing. Right now, most of the sources are only brief mentions, from unreliable sources (NewRetroWaves), or from non-independent sources (Reasonstudios). Interviews, being primary sources also cannot be used to establish notability. That leaves two pieces, the Glasgowlive piece and Huffpo piece. The former while not entirely an interview, is mostly one, and therefore is not a strong candidate to show notability. And the Huffpo article is not by a staff writer, so is not a reliable source. Indeed, it reads like a fan's puff piece. What you need are several in-depth pieces from independent, reliable sources to show he passes either WP:GNG or WP:MUSICBIO. Hope this helps. Onel5969 TT me 14:36, 19 February 2021 (UTC)
- My apologies Eagleash I'm a bit of a newbie and this is my first article, I hope of many so the help is welcomed. It is nice to be chatting with a Master Editor tho! In reply to @Onel5969: there's no real urgency and I understand why that might flag COI. NewRetroWave label is lacking a Wiki page but that's another matter. NRW itself is quite notable and this can be checked running a news search on the label. Be that as it may, the Glasgowlive and Huffpo piece I assumed were good enough, compared to a wealth of other wiki articles with far more dubious citations. I'll go through WP:GNG and WP:MUSICBIO and try to see if I can better this article. Good in-depth and notable press should be easy to find in the coming months. Thanks again. Thisismeandhistory (talk) 17:13, 19 February 2021 (UTC)
- Thisismeandhistory, no worries. When you think you have it cited well enough, feel free to ping me if you want me to take another look. Be aware, the issue with NRW is not notability, but reliability. It's not a reliable source, it's basically an advertising platform. Take care. Onel5969 TT me 17:18, 19 February 2021 (UTC)
- It is probably true to say that music related articles can be a bit of a minefield and that there do exist, several articles which quite possibly shouldn't; but... see WP:OSE. Some sites which should not be relied upon are: MusicBrainz, Facebook, Discogs.com, Spotify, IMDb, Amazon and the like. AllMusic can be considered reliable if the source is a review by a staff writer and not a 'contributor'. The HuffPost has a similar standing but is not considered reliable in respect of politics. More information about reliable sources can be found at WP:RSP. Eagleash (talk) 20:19, 19 February 2021 (UTC)
- @Onel5969: I have been actively improving this article submission and I’ve added a few more citations from reliable sources that are independent of the subject. I would be grateful for some more of your time to take another look. Amongst the additions, I have included an interview and album review from the Senior Entertainment Editor at Daily Express. While WP:RSP states that Daily Express is a generally unreliable source and should normally not be used, the source may still be used for uncontroversial self-descriptions, and self-published or user-generated content authored by established subject-matter experts, which is also acceptable. I have also read through WP:OSE and understand I cannot use this as an argument to support Oakley’s article going live. That said I agree there does exist several music articles which shouldn’t – I’ve uncovered numerous music related articles that are in the live Wiki space which use personal Twitter posts and Bandcamp listings as references. While the genre of synthwave music remains niche, Oakley is still an extremely notable artist within this music genre. I hope that this article and it's references are adequate, so that I may submit it for a speedy review. I will take any advice you can provide. Thanks Thisismeandhistory (talk) 13:04, 21 June 2021 (UTC)
- @Revirvlkodlaku: Hi David, I hope you don't mind me pinging you and thank you for correcting the update on another article I worked on today. Since you work with creation of music, film, and television-related content and articles, I wondered whether you had the time to take a look at Michael Oakley and advise whether I can now submit this for review. Please refer to the above.Thisismeandhistory (talk) 15:13, 22 June 2021 (UTC)
- Hi Thisismeandhistory, I don't mind at all. Thanks for not reverting the edits I made at Dana Jean Phoenix and accepting my changes in good grace. I'd be happy to look at the Michael Oakley page asap, though this may take me a few hours as I'm just off to work. Talk to you soon. Revirvlkodlaku (talk) 16:20, 22 June 2021 (UTC)
- Hi Thisismeandhistory, I've gone ahead and made a few edits to the draft. Most of them are cosmetic, though I did remove some content that I considered either not directly relevant to the topic or poorly sourced. As far as I'm concerned, the article is ready for mainspace. I've published articles on topics that had less not ability than Michael Oakley does, so I have no objections to its publication. Revirvlkodlaku (talk) 01:46, 23 June 2021 (UTC)
- Hello Revirvlkodlaku, thank you very much appreciated. One step closer to my first creation! I shall move this to the live space and continue to improve it as time goes along. Thisismeandhistory (talk) 08:12, 23 June 2021 (UTC)
- Hello again Revirvlkodlaku, after moving the article to mainspace it has been moved back to draft by Onel5969 'over a redirect without leaving a redirect (Segregate UPE - Must be reviewed and moved into mainspace by someone other than the UPE editor'. To both, sorry about this but could you point me in the direction of what I have done wrong here? Thisismeandhistory (talk) 15:03, 23 June 2021 (UTC)
- Thisismeandhistory, even though you mentioned that another editor had reviewed it, I couldn't find the discussion on the article talk page. Duh, since it was here. That being said, I'm still having an issue with enough in-depth coverage from reliable sources. Interviews are primary sources, so don't go to notability, we've already discussed the NRW issue. The Huffpo piece is by a "contributor", and those are not considered reliable. Before I would move it back into mainspace, I would like one more question answered, you say you have no association with the artist, how then did you create the image which is used in the article? Onel5969 TT me 15:17, 23 June 2021 (UTC)
- Onel5969, in my ping to yourself above I have explained the additional work completed on this article over the last five months, including the new primary source and interview in Daily Express and why it should still be an acceptable source. This work has been ratified by Revirvlkodlaku. I also provide further thoughts around the WP:OSE point you made. I have also addressed previously there is no COI issue here and I am not a UPE. I attended many music concerts (pre-Covid), some of which included synthwave artists. The image was taken with my mobile phone at one such concert, as I do at many other concerts and sporting events. If Wiki regards attending concerts of artists as having a personal association with those artists, then please advise. If not, I would very much appreciate it if this article could be moved back to mainspace, so that I can continue my education towards being a better editor both in the music space and other areas of Wikipedia. Thanks. Thisismeandhistory (talk) 15:40, 23 June 2021 (UTC)
- Hi Thisismeandhistory, I'm just piping up to mention that though I "ratified" the work you've done on the article, or the article's admissibility to Wikipedia mainspace, I am hardly an authority in this area. I'm neither an admin nor am I aware of the intricacies of topic admissibility. I often fly by the seat of my pants when it comes to these things, so my seal of approval on your work hardly constitutes ratification in the eyes of Wikipedia protocol. I just wanted to clarify that. Also, another small point I wanted to touch on is your question about attending concerts constituting a personal association with an artist. This, of course, is not the case. Btw, feel free to email me if you would like to discuss this further, a link to my email is included at the top of my user page. Ciao! Revirvlkodlaku (talk) 20:11, 23 June 2021 (UTC)
- Onel5969, in my ping to yourself above I have explained the additional work completed on this article over the last five months, including the new primary source and interview in Daily Express and why it should still be an acceptable source. This work has been ratified by Revirvlkodlaku. I also provide further thoughts around the WP:OSE point you made. I have also addressed previously there is no COI issue here and I am not a UPE. I attended many music concerts (pre-Covid), some of which included synthwave artists. The image was taken with my mobile phone at one such concert, as I do at many other concerts and sporting events. If Wiki regards attending concerts of artists as having a personal association with those artists, then please advise. If not, I would very much appreciate it if this article could be moved back to mainspace, so that I can continue my education towards being a better editor both in the music space and other areas of Wikipedia. Thanks. Thisismeandhistory (talk) 15:40, 23 June 2021 (UTC)
- Thisismeandhistory, even though you mentioned that another editor had reviewed it, I couldn't find the discussion on the article talk page. Duh, since it was here. That being said, I'm still having an issue with enough in-depth coverage from reliable sources. Interviews are primary sources, so don't go to notability, we've already discussed the NRW issue. The Huffpo piece is by a "contributor", and those are not considered reliable. Before I would move it back into mainspace, I would like one more question answered, you say you have no association with the artist, how then did you create the image which is used in the article? Onel5969 TT me 15:17, 23 June 2021 (UTC)
- Hello again Revirvlkodlaku, after moving the article to mainspace it has been moved back to draft by Onel5969 'over a redirect without leaving a redirect (Segregate UPE - Must be reviewed and moved into mainspace by someone other than the UPE editor'. To both, sorry about this but could you point me in the direction of what I have done wrong here? Thisismeandhistory (talk) 15:03, 23 June 2021 (UTC)
- Hello Revirvlkodlaku, thank you very much appreciated. One step closer to my first creation! I shall move this to the live space and continue to improve it as time goes along. Thisismeandhistory (talk) 08:12, 23 June 2021 (UTC)
- Hi Thisismeandhistory, I've gone ahead and made a few edits to the draft. Most of them are cosmetic, though I did remove some content that I considered either not directly relevant to the topic or poorly sourced. As far as I'm concerned, the article is ready for mainspace. I've published articles on topics that had less not ability than Michael Oakley does, so I have no objections to its publication. Revirvlkodlaku (talk) 01:46, 23 June 2021 (UTC)
- Hi Thisismeandhistory, I don't mind at all. Thanks for not reverting the edits I made at Dana Jean Phoenix and accepting my changes in good grace. I'd be happy to look at the Michael Oakley page asap, though this may take me a few hours as I'm just off to work. Talk to you soon. Revirvlkodlaku (talk) 16:20, 22 June 2021 (UTC)
- @Revirvlkodlaku: Hi David, I hope you don't mind me pinging you and thank you for correcting the update on another article I worked on today. Since you work with creation of music, film, and television-related content and articles, I wondered whether you had the time to take a look at Michael Oakley and advise whether I can now submit this for review. Please refer to the above.Thisismeandhistory (talk) 15:13, 22 June 2021 (UTC)
- @Onel5969: I have been actively improving this article submission and I’ve added a few more citations from reliable sources that are independent of the subject. I would be grateful for some more of your time to take another look. Amongst the additions, I have included an interview and album review from the Senior Entertainment Editor at Daily Express. While WP:RSP states that Daily Express is a generally unreliable source and should normally not be used, the source may still be used for uncontroversial self-descriptions, and self-published or user-generated content authored by established subject-matter experts, which is also acceptable. I have also read through WP:OSE and understand I cannot use this as an argument to support Oakley’s article going live. That said I agree there does exist several music articles which shouldn’t – I’ve uncovered numerous music related articles that are in the live Wiki space which use personal Twitter posts and Bandcamp listings as references. While the genre of synthwave music remains niche, Oakley is still an extremely notable artist within this music genre. I hope that this article and it's references are adequate, so that I may submit it for a speedy review. I will take any advice you can provide. Thanks Thisismeandhistory (talk) 13:04, 21 June 2021 (UTC)
- My apologies Eagleash I'm a bit of a newbie and this is my first article, I hope of many so the help is welcomed. It is nice to be chatting with a Master Editor tho! In reply to @Onel5969: there's no real urgency and I understand why that might flag COI. NewRetroWave label is lacking a Wiki page but that's another matter. NRW itself is quite notable and this can be checked running a news search on the label. Be that as it may, the Glasgowlive and Huffpo piece I assumed were good enough, compared to a wealth of other wiki articles with far more dubious citations. I'll go through WP:GNG and WP:MUSICBIO and try to see if I can better this article. Good in-depth and notable press should be easy to find in the coming months. Thanks again. Thisismeandhistory (talk) 17:13, 19 February 2021 (UTC)
- Hi Thisismeandhistory. And thanks for the courtesy ping Eagleash. My only concern regarding COI was the urgency comment, which seemed to indicate that you had a vested interest in seeing the article published. Setting that aside, the issue is with the current sourcing. Right now, most of the sources are only brief mentions, from unreliable sources (NewRetroWaves), or from non-independent sources (Reasonstudios). Interviews, being primary sources also cannot be used to establish notability. That leaves two pieces, the Glasgowlive piece and Huffpo piece. The former while not entirely an interview, is mostly one, and therefore is not a strong candidate to show notability. And the Huffpo article is not by a staff writer, so is not a reliable source. Indeed, it reads like a fan's puff piece. What you need are several in-depth pieces from independent, reliable sources to show he passes either WP:GNG or WP:MUSICBIO. Hope this helps. Onel5969 TT me 14:36, 19 February 2021 (UTC)