Wikipedia:Featured article candidates/Diary of a Camper

Diary of a Camper[edit]

Self-nomination. This is WikiProject Machinima's first FAC, although a good number of its members worked on Red vs Blue (which was promoted to FA in early March) before the WikiProject was formed. Although the article is short (only a bit more than 10KB, including notes and references), there is precedent for the promotion of short articles as FAs. I feel that the length is appropriate, given that the article is about a very short (under 2 minutes) video responsible for the concept of machinima, the use of 3-D video game engines to render films in real-time. I've tried to touch on the video from all angles: from the reviews that were posted on the major Quake movie websites back in 1997–98, to the academic interest in the transition from player to performer and its perception among modern machinima authors. The article has been copyedited a couple times over, and I believe that it meets the featured article criteria. — TKD::Talk 03:38, 24 August 2006 (UTC)[reply]

Comment. Consider submitting it for good article instead, which is intended for short articles.--enano ^(Talk) 14:46, 24 August 2006 (UTC)[reply]
- I disagree. The concept of good article hasn't yet been concretely established, and this article can become FA as long as it meets criteria. I've not yet read it to make that determination for myself, but I think I should make this comment before anyone misunderstands what can and can't become FA. I'll give the article a read now and get back with a support or object soon. Ryu Kaze 18:02, 24 August 2006 (UTC)[reply]

I had considered GA, but the problem is, as Ryu hinted, that some people view GA as a FA for short articles, while to others it is a less stringent form of recognition for any article. If I had felt that the article was good, but didn't quite meet FA standards yet, I might have considered submitting to GA. There has been precedent for short, well-written articles (such as Hurricane Irene (2005)) to be promoted to FA. Now, I'm not saying that a 100-second film is as notable as a hurricane, but it singularly changed the way some people thought about video games, animation, and filmmaking. — TKD::Talk 02:28, 25 August 2006 (UTC)[reply]

Comment — I'm a little torn on this one. I think it meets all criteria except for maybe the issue of comprehensiveness (I'm not saying that it doesn't; I'm just a little unsure at the moment, to be honest, and am looking for clarification). I want to add support, but given that the other Ranger films articles are all so short, it seems like it would be possible — perhaps best — to combine them all into a single article (perhaps the United Ranger Films article?). Like I say, it's good, and I'd like to support, but it seems like it would be most efficient to simply combine all of this information into a single article. I admit that I'm not well versed on the subject of machinama, and that this film might be notable enough in that category to warrant its own article, so I can't say it doesn't deserve to be an FA without more knowledge of the subject. TKD, could you give me a better idea of the subject's relevance to the medium, and tell me if you'd considered merging it with the other articles at any point, and why that might not have been done? That will help me decide between staying neutral and supporting. It might also clarify things for anyone else who would want to ask the same question. Ryu Kaze 18:16, 24 August 2006 (UTC)[reply]

Thanks fror the feedback, Ryu. I'm delighted that the only issue that you found was the one that I had forseen might have been a sticking point. I'm mostly a mergist myself, and I'll agree that at least three of the other four videos could probably be merged (possibly all four), but I don't believe that it would be beneficial to merge Diary of a Camper. I had indeed considered doing so, but, if anything, I would have created a new article on the history of machinima. However, given that scope, it probably would not have reasonably allowed me to go into as much depth on the actual content of the film or how it was received. The fact that it succeeded in creating a medium despite its simplicity is worth detailing.

As for merging to URF, well, I'd rather not do that because Diary is far more well-known in and of itself than United Ranger Films. (Google +"Diary of a Camper" (1,100 hits) versus +"United Ranger Films" (44 hits).) Unlike the other four films by URF, Diary established an entire filmmaking medium through the idea that the FPS perspective can become an independent camera. The other films did introduce some innovations, but Diary has received the most credit by a significant margin.

I've expanded the article a bit to hopefully clarify the film's role in this important transition from player to director. Would you mind taking another look? — TKD::Talk 01:24, 25 August 2006 (UTC)[reply]

Alright, your explanation makes more sense than I could have asked for. After taking another look, my concerns are completely satisfied. Full support from me. Great job with the article. Ryu Kaze 03:04, 25 August 2006 (UTC)[reply]

Support — Concerns satisfied. While not a behemoth in size, its scope is comprehensively addressed, and the prose is crisp. I am also now convinced that the subject warrants its own article. This is a well crafted piece of work. Ryu Kaze 03:04, 25 August 2006 (UTC)[reply]
Comment - I agree with Ryu Kaze idea, I think the articles should be merged. I think all the movies basically have pretty similar concept and merging them together would be quite simple. Instead of summarizing one you can just give a basic summary of the series and compare them. By the way, what media were this films released on? If they were distributed via internet (which I have no idea if they were) then that would make me want to see this articles merged even more. If this videos were actually retail sold then I disregard my comment about merging. - Tutmosis 20:09, 24 August 2006 (UTC)[reply]

I've clarified that the video was in fact released over the Internet. The five films don't really form a series; the storyline of Diary of a Camer isn't really related to those of Ranger Gone Bad and Torn Apart. I wouldn't oppose merging the other four, and might actually do it myself if I have the time, but, as I noted to Ryu above, Diary of a Camper is different in that it actually made the transition from gameplay to filmmaking, and attracted serious attention from various angles in doing so. Would you mind taking a look at the recent expansion/clarification edits that I've made? — TKD::Talk 01:24, 25 August 2006 (UTC)[reply]

Support - I feel it satisfies the criteria so I think it deserves to be fa. I can see now that the video was likely the first of its kind but that brings out the other issue, the other films articles. Are they notable to merit their own article? Is wikipedia now going to have an article on every single video released on youtube or similar sites that has gained some following? - Tutmosis 15:38, 25 August 2006 (UTC)[reply]

Thanks for your support. As for your concern, the other four URF productions would probably benefit from a merge up to URF. All of them did get independent coverage from the major Quake movie websites of the day, though, so it's not as if we're lacking secondary sources, as the typical YouTube video does. They could be expanded, but not to the length of even this article. So, yes, a merge would probably be a good idea for the other four. Just as a note, we've kept an extensive archive of past machinima-related deletion discussions, prods, and speedies; the vast majority of anything whose notability is contested does end up deleted. So I don't think that you have to worry about a deluge of stub articles, at least not from this WikiProject. — TKD::Talk 01:30, 26 August 2006 (UTC)[reply]

Support - I find it to be quite comprehensive for such a short article. Great work as per usual, TKD.--Drat (Talk) 08:23, 25 August 2006 (UTC)[reply]

Thanks! — TKD::Talk 10:19, 25 August 2006 (UTC)[reply]

I came very skeptical to this article but found it surprisingly solid, well-cited and interesting even for those who don't know the first thing about machinima :) My only gripe is that I dislike the use of parentheses for definitions in the lead: "the first example of machinima (the art of using real-time, virtual 3-D environments, often game engines, to create animated films)." I would prefer using commas or dashes. Once the article is featured it will be read by a lot of people who don't know about machinima so this information is essential, not parenthetical. Haukur 09:41, 25 August 2006 (UTC)[reply]

Thanks. I've changed the punctuation. — TKD::Talk 10:19, 25 August 2006 (UTC)[reply]

Support Haukur 10:20, 25 August 2006 (UTC)[reply]

Comment. While film articles usually contain long Production and Synopsis sections, I understand that a 100 sec one won't have much information. Anyway, could you upload a better picture? I haven't seen the film, but if there's a scene where protagonists appear clearly from a close prespective, it would be better than the one in the lead. CG 13:23, 26 August 2006 (UTC)[reply]

I've changed the image and used a slightly brighter gamma setting. Does it look better? (Note: You probably will have to bypass your cache in order to pick up the new image.) — TKD::Talk 19:42, 26 August 2006 (UTC)[reply]

While not perfect, but it's better. Thank you. CG 04:50, 27 August 2006 (UTC)[reply]

Comment. I would like to know more about the production of this machinima. How was it done? Where did the production take place? Over the internet or in some building? Who were the people involved in it and who did what? I need names or at least aliases. Saying that it was done by United Ranger Films is like saying that Life of Brian was done by Monty Python and not mentioning Graham Chapman, John Cleese, Terry Gilliam, Eric Idle, Terry Jones and Michael Palin. --Maitch 10:44, 27 August 2006 (UTC)[reply]

Fair point. Give me a day or so; I'll see what I can dig up. — TKD::Talk 16:41, 27 August 2006 (UTC)[reply]

Is this edit sufficient to satisfy your request? I found real names for a good number of people involved in the film and defined roles more clearly. As for where it was done, I assume that it was created over the Internet, but it'd be OR to state that. Quake is inherently client-server, but that could mean either a local network or the Internet. — TKD::Talk 09:41, 28 August 2006 (UTC)[reply]

I am satisfied with the edit and I will support now. --Maitch 12:16, 28 August 2006 (UTC)[reply]

Support. The article is short, but it is very limited what you can say about a thing that lasts 100 seconds. I don't think this article should be merged given that it is very notable within machinima. --Maitch 12:16, 28 August 2006 (UTC)[reply]
Comment - I'm not a big fan of that lead paragraph. A lot of it seems redundant, explaining what machinima is might be helpful, but is there any need to explain what deathmatch and camping is? If you take a look at meta:Wiki is not paper, you'll see the difference between paper publishing style and wiki style, and one of those differences is wikilinks. Being familiar with Machinima, Quake movies and deathmatch in general, I'm not the best to comment on this, but maybe get some none-gamer's input on the intro. - Hahnch e n 01:35, 29 August 2006 (UTC)[reply]

I understand what you're saying, and I prefer concision where possible, but not at the expense of clarity. My experience has been that making the lead as clear to non-specialists as is feasible is the best route. With machinima in particular, appositions help people to understand the boundaries between the real world, the fictional universe established by the underlying game, and the universe established by the machinima work. The lead of Red vs Blue has been reworked many times in response to various requests for additional clarity (even well after the FAC passed). So I've learned to err on the side of providing a little extra information, even if it's covered in a wikilink. m:Wiki is not paper suggests that one need not spell out DEC as Digital Equipment Corporation, but our Manual of Style states: "Do not assume that your reader is familiar with the acronym or abbreviation you are using. The standard writing style is to spell out the acronym or abbreviation on the first reference (wikilinked if appropriate) and then show the acronym or abbreviation after it." Also consider Haukur's comment above, where this information is deemed essential.

Obviously, it's possible to take this overboard, but generally I've found that the single explanatory phrase works well as a middle ground. Wikilinks are definitely advantageous, but we shouldn't have to force a reader to follow a bunch of them just to understand the lead. — TKD::Talk 04:54, 29 August 2006 (UTC)[reply]

TKD's exactly right, and it's because a little of the extra mile was put into making this understandable to non-specialists (like me) that I supported it. If I had no idea what it was trying to say in the lead, I sure as heck wouldn't expect to understand the rest. Ryu Kaze 10:53, 29 August 2006 (UTC)[reply]