Wikipedia:Featured article review/Darjeeling/archive2

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The following is an archived discussion of a featured article review. Please do not modify it. Further comments should be made on the article's talk page or at Wikipedia talk:Featured article review. No further edits should be made to this page.

The article was kept by Nikkimaria via FACBot (talk) 1:42, 8 August 2022 (UTC) [1].

Darjeeling[edit]

Notified: Dwaipayanc, SBC-YPR, Yashthepunisher, Chandan Guha, Ssbbplayer, Antoshurel, WP India, WP Cities, WP Nepal, noticed in March

As noted by RetiredDuke, the article has some issues with source-text integrity, spots tagged as needing citations, and some datedness, as well as significant MOS:SANDWICH issues and a generally excessive number of images. Hog Farm Talk 06:30, 18 December 2021 (UTC)[reply]

  • Move to FARC no/minimal progress (t · c) buidhe 05:25, 25 December 2021 (UTC)[reply]
  • @Kautilya3 and Fowler&fowler: - I see some work has been done here, does it look like this one can be rescued in the course of a FAR? Hog Farm Talk 16:26, 29 December 2021 (UTC)[reply]
No, I don't think so. Unless there is an active group of editors maintaining the page, it is impossible to maintain the FA status, even if it was well-deserved once upon a time. -- Kautilya3 (talk) 16:41, 29 December 2021 (UTC)[reply]
Well, I had never really edited the article before I edited the lead a few weeks ago for coherence. What are the issues? Are they mainly citations? It looks like a nice, informative article. I don't see why it can't retain its bronze star. Are you willing to grant me the month of January? I don't know anything about the topic but I can fix the sourcing and the source-text integrity. Can I interpret the last to be poor paraphrasing of the cited text? Fowler&fowler«Talk» 16:59, 29 December 2021 (UTC)[reply]
@Fowler&fowler: - the main issues are a few citations needed, some spots where the citations don't fully support the text, and some spots where it looks like the material does not fully reflect recent stuff, such as the tourism section containing nothing after 2015. At least on my web browser, there's some layout issues in one spot, with almost an entire screen's view of whitespace between the climate subheading and the table. And yes, this can stay open as long as work is actively occurring. Hog Farm Talk 17:05, 29 December 2021 (UTC)[reply]
OK, I'll take a stab at it. Fowler&fowler«Talk» 17:33, 29 December 2021 (UTC)[reply]
Hold in FAR, per User:Fowler&fowler. SandyGeorgia (Talk) 20:50, 31 December 2021 (UTC)[reply]
About half of the images need to go. SandyGeorgia (Talk) 03:09, 3 January 2022 (UTC)[reply]
@Fowler&fowler:, no progress since before your comment, shall we proceed to FARC? SandyGeorgia (Talk) 21:16, 12 January 2022 (UTC)[reply]
user:SandyGeorgia Please allow me until the end of the month, i.e. January. It's true I haven't thus far demonstrated the kind of energy I may have implied, but I do want to get around to fixing this article. It's just that I was waylaid by some others. Thanks. Fowler&fowler«Talk» 00:23, 13 January 2022 (UTC)[reply]
No prob, just going down the list and checking. SandyGeorgia (Talk) 02:22, 13 January 2022 (UTC)[reply]
Thanks @Fowler&fowler:, for taking the initiative. I am extremely short of time, but will try to help in the process. I do have the book mentioned below (Darjeeling Reconsidered: Histories, Politics, Environments), but don't have the time to read and use it :( Thanks again, --Dwaipayan (talk) 20:05, 18 January 2022 (UTC)[reply]
  • This has been on my watch but about the remarkable depth of scholarship on the subject, lacking any mention in our article, consult Middleton, Townsend; Shneiderman, Sara, eds. (2018). Darjeeling Reconsidered: Histories, Politics, Environments. Oxford: Oxford University Press. ISBN 978-0-19-948355-6. I am acquainted with scholarship on the region to some extent - ping me, if you need help on something. TrangaBellam (talk) 16:13, 16 January 2022 (UTC)[reply]
  • Could we get an update on status here? Nikkimaria (talk) 04:14, 5 February 2022 (UTC)[reply]
Providing references, inline citations. Sections towards the end of the article (culture, education) not done yet. Certainly needs more time.--Dwaipayan (talk) 15:13, 5 February 2022 (UTC)[reply]
Dwaipayanc, happy to see you on this! Time is allowed at FAR as long as progress is being made. Best regards, SandyGeorgia (Talk) 18:33, 8 February 2022 (UTC)[reply]
OK, I've begun to work on the article. Sorry, it has taken longer than I had thought, but I'm improving the pictures while I read the history and will start rewriting the history sections in a few days. Fowler&fowler«Talk» 22:52, 13 February 2022 (UTC)[reply]

There is MOS:SANDWICHing pushed down into the third section of the article, caused by the excess of images in the infobox; perhaps lose a row of images in the infobox. SandyGeorgia (Talk) 23:06, 13 February 2022 (UTC) Fixed, SandyGeorgia (Talk) 23:21, 13 February 2022 (UTC)[reply]

Done. Fowler&fowler«Talk» 23:24, 13 February 2022 (UTC)[reply]

One edit in ten days; shall we Proceed to FARC? SandyGeorgia (Talk) 02:59, 27 February 2022 (UTC)[reply]

Hello Sandy. Thanks for the timely reminder. I'm reading and making notes. I will start editing again in a day or two, starting with the history section. PS Please note that this is a vital topic. It is also viewed a lot. The article receives an average of 1100 page views a day. The recent TFAs on the other hand, have received an average of 50 (outside of the TFA day itself). If TFAs are a sample of what is coming into WP:FA, and if an article exists to the extent it has readers (some version of Schroedinger's cat), it means it takes three weeks of the inflow to match Darjeeling, and were it to constitute the outflow, something substantial would be lost (though I am by no means conflating popularity and vitality). To my way of thinking, this article is worth saving. My style of working is not linear. I don't know what else to say. Please allow more time. But please keep reminding us. Fowler&fowler«Talk» 12:08, 27 February 2022 (UTC)[reply]
Per my analysis, we are in violent agreement, but please keep the work progressing here. SandyGeorgia (Talk) 17:42, 27 February 2022 (UTC)[reply]
:) Amazing, how similar. Will do. Thank you. Fowler&fowler«Talk» 04:09, 28 February 2022 (UTC)[reply]

There were some edits today. SandyGeorgia (Talk) 19:59, 4 March 2022 (UTC)[reply]

Active improvements still happening. SandyGeorgia (Talk) 02:01, 12 March 2022 (UTC)[reply]

Yes, I'm updating the history with more modern sources. Thanks. Fowler&fowler«Talk» 02:42, 12 March 2022 (UTC)[reply]
  • Update? Three months in, and the images in the article are at an alarming state of MOS:SANDWICH, making the article hard to read. Demographics (at least) are still outdated (I haven't checked other sections). And maintenance tags are still in place. Much more than History needs to be addressed here; F&f are you sure this is salvageable? Is there a plan for how/who/when to finish up? SandyGeorgia (Talk) 11:04, 28 March 2022 (UTC)[reply]
    Yes it very much is. Very sorry, but I was caught up with major POV issues arising from the Kashmir Files. Sorted out just this morning. All my attention will belong to that page. As for the plan, it should be done before the end of April, probably earlier. What if we revisit this April 15? If it is still in the doldrums, I will be the first one to propose the boot. Fowler&fowler«Talk» 19:25, 28 March 2022 (UTC)[reply]
    OK, thanks (it's depressing to view the FAR page weekly and find a growing number of unaddressed nominations; at least having a timeline helps know which are abandoned). SandyGeorgia (Talk) 22:31, 28 March 2022 (UTC)[reply]
    @SandyGeorgia: I am not attending the History section or images (that is F&f's department); however, I am trying to take care of many other sections. As for demography, the data is actually not really outdated. The data from 2021 census is not available yet (census 2021 has been delayed due to the pandemic). So, the data there is the most recent reliable data, from 2011 Census of India. There is some data from 2001 census as well in that section, to give a comparative view. Once census 2021 data is available (perhaps in next 18 months), the 2001 data would be removed, 2021 data will be added, and 2011 data will remain (in a modified form) for comparison.
Also, I have tried to take care of most citation needed tags, updated sections such as civic administration, civil utilities, culture. . Thanks!--Dwaipayan (talk) 15:26, 31 March 2022 (UTC)[reply]
That makes me feel better as I know precious little about the demography or civic utilities ... and have only recently boned up on the history. Thank you @Dwaipayanc: ! Fowler&fowler«Talk» 16:39, 31 March 2022 (UTC)[reply]
Also I will replace the maps I have added in the history section with fewer but more focused maps Fowler&fowler«Talk» 16:41, 31 March 2022 (UTC)[reply]
  • Now April 15, could we get an update on status? Nikkimaria (talk) 01:36, 16 April 2022 (UTC)[reply]
    Thanks Nikkimaria. The maps are done, which for me was the hardest part. The history section is moving along. And I have quite a few notes ready to transferred to the article. We not in the doldrums. We'll be done by April 30, and maybe before. Fowler&fowler«Talk» 01:56, 16 April 2022 (UTC)[reply]

There is still a distressing amount of image clutter, and a gynormous infobox pushing well into the article, that contains lengthy text, a large map, and multiple photos. I haven't looked at content because of the visual assault effect from the infobox plus images. I assume this is still being addressed? SandyGeorgia (Talk) 17:59, 25 April 2022 (UTC)[reply]

On my screen, it's awful with a giant amount of empty whitespace in the seismology section. As a note, there only seems to be freedom of panorama for sculpture, not 2D work, in India, so File:Proposed map of Gorkhaland, 2009, Singamari, Darjeeling.jpg may not be freely licensable. Hog Farm Talk 18:04, 25 April 2022 (UTC)[reply]
The lead will increase in size, so the infobox will loom less large, relatively speaking. I'm using the local big boy for the model. Its lead is 400 words, compared to 250 for Darj. Part of the problem is that West Bengal, the Indian state in which Darj lies is thin and tall. I don't mind showing only part of the state but don't have a good feel for how others will react. Boston barely shows the Cape. Please give me something to model on. The image sizes are large only because it is easier for me to see them; they will be reduced to standard, thumbnails. The proposed map I'm happy to remove. In five minutes. Fowler&fowler«Talk» 18:43, 25 April 2022 (UTC)[reply]
I'd take a multi-factorial approach; lose the map in the infobox, lose one row of the images, and lose some of the content (postal codes, really, Wikipedia is not a phone book). We can't have it all, and don't need it all ... there is just way too much happening in the infobox. SandyGeorgia (Talk) 18:54, 25 April 2022 (UTC)[reply]
:) I have no feeling (nor sympathy for the phone book). Just didn't want to step on toes. Will do Fowler&fowler«Talk» 19:14, 25 April 2022 (UTC)[reply]
Reduced image sizes in History. How do they look? The Geography bit I'm clueless about. I mean in the mechanics of displaying. Not sure why the year-round temperatures are needed, but they seem to be a common feature of city articles. Please advise. Fowler&fowler«Talk» 19:17, 25 April 2022 (UTC)[reply]
I'm almost done with the British Raj section of history; the last two parags are not mine and will change. I have texts line up for the postcolonial history section which should be done in a couple of days. Eventually, once the text is in place, I'll make it a little less discursive, more encyclopedically deadpan. Beyond history, I have sources and some text lined up for the modern tea-industry in economy; flora and fauna; and food (the picture with the little obligate carnivore bottom left is my addition) I've never been to Darjeeling, though I have to some other parts of the mountain ranges South Asia is blessed with. Have to run now, but these comments are very useful, and welcome! Fowler&fowler«Talk» 19:27, 25 April 2022 (UTC)[reply]
  • Could we get an update on status here? Nikkimaria (talk) 19:22, 21 May 2022 (UTC)[reply]
    • @Fowler&fowler: - I see you're still actively working on this - what's the status? It looks like, among other things, the referencing has improved and the layout is much better, although the school children image is making the references do weird things on my screen. Hog Farm Talk 21:02, 21 May 2022 (UTC)[reply]
      Yes, I am back. I will give it that one last spurt to restore the article's shine, including fixing the picture in the last section. Thanks for your understanding and patience. Fowler&fowler«Talk» 21:48, 21 May 2022 (UTC)[reply]
      How does it look? If it looks reasonable, I can do the spot checks rigorously and rewrite the lead to reflect the revised article content. Fowler&fowler«Talk» 20:07, 27 May 2022 (UTC)[reply]
      I will also read through the article for prose issues (coherence especially) and fix them. Fowler&fowler«Talk» 20:18, 27 May 2022 (UTC)[reply]
      That was for @Hog Farm: Fowler&fowler«Talk» 01:44, 28 May 2022 (UTC)[reply]
      F&f, I'll try to look at this at some point over the next couple days - I just got back from a rough work trip to the armpit of Missouri and need to get caught up on some stuff both on wiki and some more stuff for work. Hog Farm Talk 01:51, 28 May 2022 (UTC)[reply]
      No problemo Amigo. I have fond memories of St Louis, from many years ago, but from a vacation. Fowler&fowler«Talk» 02:38, 28 May 2022 (UTC)[reply]
      I'm a native Missourian and for the most part love the state, but works always seems to drag me to some of the less-pleasant areas of it (although I have gotten to spend some time in the Table Rock Lake area, which is beautiful). Anyway, I've finally gotten around to leave some comments at Wikipedia talk:Featured article review/Darjeeling/archive2#HF. The history section looks much improved, although some of the other sections need a bit of work (including a few source-text integrity issues). Hog Farm Talk 03:54, 2 June 2022 (UTC)[reply]
      Apologies @Hog Farm:, I didn't see this earlier. First, thank you very much for the fine and very relevant comments. I have just taken a look and will get busy fixing them. Second, and to @SandyGeorgia and Nikkimaria: as well, further apologies for my capricious and self-willed ways, but may I request the month of June? It has taken six months to accomplish what some psychoanalysts might call a transformation of narcissism, for the vanity that I can save something I know nothing about (beyond its supermarket tea bags) to give way to the better vanity that (beyond the tea and the tourism) this is interesting in its own right and I better make sure it is said. I promise this will not be a bottomless excavation. Fowler&fowler«Talk» 15:33, 5 June 2022 (UTC)[reply]
      Update for FAR coordinators - active work is still ongoing here. Hog Farm Talk 13:34, 28 June 2022 (UTC)[reply]
      Hi @Hog Farm: I'll be done on the 30th of June. Thanks. Fowler&fowler«Talk» 15:50, 28 June 2022 (UTC)[reply]
      Apologies I forgot @Nikkimaria: Fowler&fowler«Talk» 02:06, 1 July 2022 (UTC)[reply]
      OK, I'm not sure who the coords are, but replying to @Hog Farm, SandyGeorgia, Casliber, DrKay, and Ealdgyth:,
      I'm done. It was a pleasure. I learned a few things about a topic
      I knew very little about. I hope the article has improved. I will now be taking three months off from WP, returning on October 1. If the India FAR could be held off until then, I'd be grateful. Best regards, Fowler&fowler«Talk» 02:04, 1 July 2022 (UTC)[reply]
      It's the 30th here. Fowler&fowler«Talk» 02:05, 1 July 2022 (UTC)[reply]
      Also, thanking @Dwaipayanc:, my main collaborator and the original creator of this page. Fowler&fowler«Talk» 02:09, 1 July 2022 (UTC)[reply]
      I'll try to give it another read-through this weekend. Hog Farm Talk 03:59, 1 July 2022 (UTC)[reply]
      Thank you Hog Farm. @Dwaipayanc: could you address any issues raised by HF? I will not be logging in for the next three months, or at least holding out the prospect. Best wishes everyone. Fowler&fowler«Talk» 03:05, 2 July 2022 (UTC)[reply]
      Another batch posted at Wikipedia talk:Featured article review/Darjeeling/archive2. @Dwaipayanc: - any way you'd be able to look at this since Fowler is out? I just don't have the ability to do a good assessment of Indian web sources through lack of familiarity. Hog Farm Talk 23:22, 6 July 2022 (UTC)[reply]
      @Hog Farm: I just started to address the issues listed by you. Thanks for your effort. --Dwaipayan (talk) 02:44, 7 July 2022 (UTC)[reply]

@Hog Farm and Dwaipayanc:, see here re August 15. I am swamped at Palladian architecture re August 13. Is this on track? I can try to get here after I finish up at Palladian; have not heard yet if Gog the Mild is considering the switch. We can ping in Buidhe or Z1720 if/when Hog Farm is satisfied. SandyGeorgia (Talk) 19:27, 11 July 2022 (UTC)[reply]

Re Political history of medieval Karnataka: currently, no, they aren't. Gog the Mild (talk) 19:45, 11 July 2022 (UTC)[reply]
See HogFarm's final comment in Wikipedia_talk:Featured_article_review/Darjeeling/archive2
I'm in the process of rewriting Municipality and Utilities. A saving grace or should I say blessing in disguise—but may even those are cruel characterizations—of the pandemic has been that some academics have been busy publishing like no tomorrow. Who would have thought Springer would be publishing articles on water shortage in the Darjeeling municipality? Fowler&fowler«Talk» 20:01, 11 July 2022 (UTC)[reply]
Fowler & Dwaipayan, once you get through all of these, I'll take another look. Hog Farm Talk 23:46, 11 July 2022 (UTC)[reply]
Does anyone know if MATLAB plots are OK on WP? I have made a plot for the demography section using Matlab on which I am ramping up. The plot will get better in the next few days, but I just wanted to make sure. Fowler&fowler«Talk» 00:21, 12 July 2022 (UTC)[reply]
Will do HF Fowler&fowler«Talk» 01:30, 12 July 2022 (UTC)[reply]
Noting F&f's progress in the further revision:
  1. Lead done}}
  2. History done}}
  3. Geography done}}
  4. Climate, done}} now "Climate and environment," and a labor of love. 04:56, 18 July 2022 (UTC)
  5. Flora and fauna
  6. Civic administration done}} 03:55, 22 July 2022 (UTC)
  7. Demographics done}}
  8. Civil utilities done}} 01:19, 13 July 2022 (UTC)
  9. Economy
  10. Transport done}} 23:26, 13 July 2022 (UTC)
  11. Culture
  12. Education done}} 02:51, 15 July 2022 (UTC)

Fowler&fowler«Talk» 22:17, 12 July 2022 (UTC)[reply]

@Fowler&fowler: I noticed your TFA nomination. Is this ready for additional comments from reviewers? Z1720 (talk) 00:12, 20 July 2022 (UTC)[reply]
It should be ready for comments Friday evening (US time). Thanks. But I'd like to first have Hog Farm on board as they've been the one I've been working with. Once that happens, other comments will be most welcome. Fowler&fowler«Talk» 01:39, 20 July 2022 (UTC)[reply]
Fowler, I've got a major exam on Saturday morning and might not be able to look at it for a few days. Hog Farm Talk 04:01, 21 July 2022 (UTC)[reply]
That's fine. I'll aim for Monday, the 25th Fowler&fowler«Talk» 04:13, 21 July 2022 (UTC)[reply]
All the best HF in your exam! Fowler&fowler«Talk» 04:14, 21 July 2022 (UTC)[reply]
Apologies SG! Fowler&fowler«Talk» 16:07, 21 July 2022 (UTC)[reply]
Fowler, please ping me when you're ready for me to take a look. Hog Farm Talk 23:32, 25 July 2022 (UTC)[reply]
Hi @Hog Farm: I'm done with what I'd I had set out to do. The only thing that remains is the culture section which is a long list, it seems.
I can't find a reliable high-level treatment of the culture in Darjeeling. And I'm congenitally not suited for writing about things for which the sources are light weight (newspapers and so forth). Is a culture section needed? Alternatively, if we can reduce it to its cuisine section, I can expand that a little while you take a look at the the other sections. Let me know what you think. Fowler&fowler«Talk» 00:51, 26 July 2022 (UTC)[reply]
The culture section consists of description on festivities (rather listy), cuisine, and tourism destinations. Since Darjeeling is notable as a tourism destination, mention of popular destination is appropriate, I think. Festivals include events that are slightly different from rest of West Bengal (the state in which Darjeeling is located) and India (although several pan-India or pan-West Bengal are also observed in darjeeling). I feel culture is an important aspect of a town, especially if it has a palpable difference from rest of the state/country. Hope the references are appropriate. As Fowler has mentioned, there is relative lack of high-level references cited for culture section, but there is low-level sources cited.--Dwaipayan (talk) 03:10, 26 July 2022 (UTC)[reply]
OK @Dwaipayanc: So @Hog Farm: we are done and will await your comments. Fowler&fowler«Talk» 15:02, 26 July 2022 (UTC)[reply]
I will do my best to get through this tonight. Hog Farm Talk 15:04, 26 July 2022 (UTC)[reply]

What's going on with date formatting? It's been templated as dmy for a long time, but there is now mdy in the article. Shall I run the script to convert back to dmy? SandyGeorgia (Talk) 18:57, 26 July 2022 (UTC)[reply]

Please do SG Fowler&fowler«Talk» 19:27, 26 July 2022 (UTC)[reply]
Done, SandyGeorgia (Talk) 19:29, 26 July 2022 (UTC)[reply]

You can install user:Evad37/duplinks-alt to examine duplicate wikilinks; a number of them can be justified, but some may be excessive. SandyGeorgia (Talk) 19:01, 26 July 2022 (UTC)[reply]

I just did. Thanks. Fowler&fowler«Talk» 19:58, 26 July 2022 (UTC)[reply]
Struck SandyGeorgia (Talk) 20:36, 26 July 2022 (UTC)[reply]
Except for some links to unfamiliar names occurring long after they were first introduced I've removed the duplicate links Fowler&fowler«Talk» 21:26, 26 July 2022 (UTC)[reply]

Many of the uses of the word also seem redundant; pls review. SandyGeorgia (Talk) 19:03, 26 July 2022 (UTC)[reply]

Yeah. :) Could be me, trying to be over precise. That next. Fowler&fowler«Talk» 21:27, 26 July 2022 (UTC)[reply]
Not a single one was needed. All gone. ty SG Fowler&fowler«Talk» 21:38, 26 July 2022 (UTC)[reply]
Struck, SandyGeorgia (Talk) 00:08, 27 July 2022 (UTC)[reply]

See MOS:PAGERANGE, chk throughout, sample: pp. 158–9. SandyGeorgia (Talk) 19:06, 26 July 2022 (UTC)[reply]

Done, ty SG Fowler&fowler«Talk» 21:52, 26 July 2022 (UTC)[reply]
Struck, SandyGeorgia (Talk) 00:08, 27 July 2022 (UTC)[reply]

Please ping me after Hog Farm is satisfied and I will do a full read-through (I am not tickled pink about how close we are cutting this to the TFA deadline of 15 August, after it being here at FAR since December ... it kind of forces us all to scramble after wait wait waiting. :) SandyGeorgia (Talk) 19:10, 26 July 2022 (UTC)[reply]

  • "In the last census, the main religions practiced" ... presumably the 2011 census? Please reiterate here so text will endure, SandyGeorgia (Talk) 19:37, 26 July 2022 (UTC)[reply]
    Addressed, struck, SandyGeorgia (Talk) 20:38, 26 July 2022 (UTC)[reply]
    Fixed and added a source stating there was no census in 2021 and next one an e-survey is not planned until 2024 Fowler&fowler«Talk» 20:39, 26 July 2022 (UTC)[reply]
Will do, thanks for the review thus far. Very helpful Fowler&fowler«Talk» 21:54, 26 July 2022 (UTC)[reply]

I am not seeing how these two thoughts are related? "Although their lingua franca, the Nepali language, was declared an official language of the state of West Bengal in 1961 and of the Republic of India in 1992, their economic condition has not improved as much as that of other ethnic groups in the town." SandyGeorgia (Talk) 19:40, 26 July 2022 (UTC)[reply]

I've just clarified. Tell me if it makes more sense. Fowler&fowler«Talk» 20:04, 26 July 2022 (UTC)[reply]
Struck, SandyGeorgia (Talk) 20:38, 26 July 2022 (UTC)[reply]
Fowler, Sandy, I'm sorry I haven't been able to get to this but I've been fighting migraines the last day and a half. Hopefully I can get to this soon. Hog Farm Talk 03:59, 27 July 2022 (UTC)[reply]
Sorry to hear. Those are terrible. Hope you feel better very soon, for your sake. Fowler&fowler«Talk» 11:40, 27 July 2022 (UTC)[reply]
Hog Farm I will prioritize this then ... hope you feel better soon ... but my sleep cycles are still a mess, and post-COVID fatigue. May not get through until tomorrow. SandyGeorgia (Talk) 16:19, 27 July 2022 (UTC)[reply]
Sorry to hear SG The whole world is going crazy. I hope you feel better soon. Don't worry about this article. It will get done. Your health is more important. Fowler&fowler«Talk» 17:04, 27 July 2022 (UTC)[reply]
I'm better, just tired a lot, so have been poking around at WP:CCI since I can do some mindless checking there. For some reason, more tired than usual today, so won't try to focus on this just yet. SandyGeorgia (Talk) 17:08, 27 July 2022 (UTC)[reply]
Feeling better today, hopefully the 4.5 hours of staring at a screen this afternoon for work doesn't make it recur. Hoping to at least start tonight ... Hog Farm Talk 17:28, 27 July 2022 (UTC)[reply]
You may get there before me then; I have a social gathering tonight (which I may skip pending re-take of COVID swab). SandyGeorgia (Talk) 18:04, 27 July 2022 (UTC)[reply]
  • In the history section, there is a sentence with quotation: Bhutia and Lepcha men worked as "rickshaw riders and coolies...". @Fowler&fowler:, can you please make sure the quotation actually mention rickshaw "rider". I thought rickshaw "puller" would be a more appropriate description.--Dwaipayan (talk) 13:12, 27 July 2022 (UTC)[reply]
    Will fix this pronto. Yes you can see it in File:Chittaranjan Das 1925.jpg this picture of Gandhi and CR Das. The Lepcha or Bhutia guy is the puller. Fowler&fowler«Talk» 17:20, 27 July 2022 (UTC)[reply]
    done. Fowler&fowler«Talk» 03:39, 28 July 2022 (UTC)[reply]
  • Towards the end of the lead: " at the bottom of Darjeeling's hills, some of India's cheapest teas are grown. These upon being marketed domestically in "instant" versions in the 1950s, transformed India into a nation of tea drinkers". This needs to be mentioned somewhere in the body of the article. This is currently mentioned only in the lead. @Fowler&fowler:, i was not sure where to accommodate this. Perhaps in the post-independence history section? Thanks!--Dwaipayan (talk) 15:56, 27 July 2022 (UTC)[reply]
    I had meant to write the tea bit in the economy section, but forgot. Thanks for noticing the lack of coherence. I will now add it. Fowler&fowler«Talk» 17:16, 27 July 2022 (UTC)[reply]

Remaining I'm back to be able to look at this but I'm on a work trip and the internet isn't the best here so I won't be able to do much in the way of source digging.

  • "The rivers that drain the Darjeeling hills today are ancededent drainage streams" - is "ancededent" a typo? Yes, typo. Corrected.--Dwaipayan (talk) 02:36, 28 July 2022 (UTC)[reply]
  • " continues to be among the world's most expensive, but at the bottom of Darjeeling's hills, some of India's cheapest teas are grown. These upon being marketed domestically in "instant" versions in the 1950s, transformed India into a nation of tea drinkers" - not finding this in the body, recommend adding it to the paragraph in the economy section discussing tea
Will do it tomorrow AM, Hog Farm. Thanks for your comments. I will do a rigorous source and paraphrasing check later this week. Fowler&fowler«Talk» 03:42, 28 July 2022 (UTC)[reply]

Didn't see much still outstanding; it looks a lot better than it did even a month ago. I'm satisfied if Sandy is; I unfortunately couldn't dig into the sources heavily due to the internet situation on my work trip. Hog Farm Talk 00:56, 28 July 2022 (UTC)[reply]

I have started on talk. SandyGeorgia (Talk) 16:26, 28 July 2022 (UTC)[reply]

Very close now to Close without FARC/Keep; there are a few image quibbles from Nikkimaria that are still being worked out on the FAR talk, and we need fresh eyes to look over the whole thing. I have no more issues. @Buidhe, Hog Farm, Z1720, Aza24, and Wtfiv:; this is scheduled for TFA in 10 days, so a quick appraisal would be most appreciated. SandyGeorgia (Talk) 02:59, 5 August 2022 (UTC)[reply]
PS, Hog Farm, to the best of my understanding, everything you raised on talk (and more) has been addressed or answered. SandyGeorgia (Talk) 03:04, 5 August 2022 (UTC)[reply]
I'll try to get to this again tomorrow or Saturday, running so far behind ... Hog Farm Talk 03:07, 5 August 2022 (UTC)[reply]
Kautilya3 would you be able to revisit now? SandyGeorgia (Talk) 03:54, 5 August 2022 (UTC)[reply]
Dwaipayanc your declaration is also welcome, SandyGeorgia (Talk) 04:28, 5 August 2022 (UTC)[reply]

Quick look from Aza24

  • Many of the quotes in refs have a space after the quotation mark, not sure if this is intentional. One "Workers were needed to meet..." does not have quotes at all
    The ps= parameter used on sfns needs an nbsp to force a space; the quote parameter with ref tags does not. I've removed most of them; will finish History section when it is not in use. I believe Booth p. 10 is not a quote, but F&f should check. SandyGeorgia (Talk) 11:51, 5 August 2022 (UTC)[reply]
    Fixed History as well; F&f needs to verify whether Booth p. 10 is a quote. SandyGeorgia (Talk) 12:50, 5 August 2022 (UTC)[reply]
    Booth is a quote. I've fixed the cite. Fowler&fowler«Talk» 14:25, 5 August 2022 (UTC)[reply]
  • Perhaps not pressing but the Culture scarcely contains any information on music or the visual arts (albeit a little on architecture) and I suppose dance
  • The section title 'Early history: up to 1835' is a bit odd, as the other history section titles are formatted 'Year: Event'
    Fixeed, SandyGeorgia (Talk) 13:00, 5 August 2022 (UTC)[reply]
  • The orders of 'Figure' labeling numbers in the images is a bit erratic, and not chronological with the article (when I assume it should be?)
    I think the only problem remaining is that there is no longer a Figure 2, but I strongly suggest that Fowler&fowler wait for everything else to settle before adjusting those numbers. SandyGeorgia (Talk) 14:01, 5 August 2022 (UTC)[reply]
    I also suggest that this brings up one of the reasons that "See figure" is discouraged; images get deleted. Fowler&fowler when you rejig the numbers, please have a look at removing any non-essential references to figures from the text, for avoidance of this very problem in the future. Some of these are needed; not all are. SandyGeorgia (Talk) 14:03, 5 August 2022 (UTC)[reply]
    Oops, not the only problem ... the numbers get out of whack afer 7. Again, remove any that are not necessary so this issue doesn't recur when text is juggled or images are removed. SandyGeorgia (Talk) 14:09, 5 August 2022 (UTC)[reply]
    Good point. Will do. Fowler&fowler«Talk» 14:27, 5 August 2022 (UTC)[reply]
    Fowler&fowler at the point in the article development that I said that it was OK to use the "See Figure", I think there were only three (or maybe five) of them; they grew and got out of control, and now you can see where/how/when/why they become problematic. Reduce them to only the essential or they will always be a maintenance problem, just like now, where they need to be re-juggled. SandyGeorgia (Talk) 14:47, 5 August 2022 (UTC)[reply]
    Aza24 Figures reduced to only 4; pls have a look now. SandyGeorgia (Talk) 21:51, 5 August 2022 (UTC)[reply]
  • The Flora and fauna images are far into the demographics section on my screen, being pushed by the images in the Environment section. I suggest one of the images in the smaller Environment section be removed, presumably the second.
    That happened late yesterday when most of the images were stacked along the right, which created this problem; I have changed the two graphs in Environment back to horizontal alignment, rather than vertical, to stop this pushing down. Fowler&fowler we are much too close to the TFA deadline to keep adding and fiddling with images; the vertical stacking late yesterday introduced problems. Let's focus on getting content finished and leave the images alone so we can finish this FAR on time, pls. History could benefit by returning images to a select few, horizontally aligned where needed; the overall is offputting now with so images running down the right-hand side. SandyGeorgia (Talk) 12:03, 5 August 2022 (UTC)[reply]
    Done, all horizontally aligned. The only extra image I added was in Tourism which I'm happy to take out. The two new ones in history as simply replacements which are old enough to satisfy Nikkimaria's quieries Fowler&fowler«Talk» 13:04, 5 August 2022 (UTC)[reply]
    I think we're good now ... the problem was the vertical stacking. SandyGeorgia (Talk) 13:05, 5 August 2022 (UTC)[reply]
  • The Wikivoyage ext link can probably be put in the sister projects template—in fact, I would recommend all of the sister project links be put in the horizontal {{Subject bar}}, so that the white space in that section can be greatly reduced
    Done, SandyGeorgia (Talk) 12:22, 5 August 2022 (UTC)[reply]
  • There is far too many images in the History section, none of them (besides the first two) even line up remotely close to their relevant text on my laptop, and only barely so on my desktop. Being generous, at least three almost certainly need to be removed
    I agree with Aza24 on the image issues-- these were introduced yesterday (there are too many images, and a few days ago there were smaller pairs of multiple images horizontally aligned). About a third of the images can probably go, as they are now overwhelming the article. SandyGeorgia (Talk) 11:35, 5 August 2022 (UTC)[reply]
    I have repaired now all but the History section, which is In use; the extreme vertical stacking of too many images in History has led to this problem. SandyGeorgia (Talk) 12:10, 5 August 2022 (UTC)[reply]
    Aza24 have a look now? SandyGeorgia (Talk) 13:00, 5 August 2022 (UTC)[reply]
    See my reply above Fowler&fowler«Talk» 13:05, 5 August 2022 (UTC)[reply]
  • That's it for a quick pass, impressive and thorough work otherwise. Aza24 (talk) 07:09, 5 August 2022 (UTC)[reply]
    Thank you Aza24 for you fine comments. I've added some music in culture; some history, that is. Will look for some more. The caution about images, both yours and SGs, is clearly understood. Will address the image explosion and figure mis-numbering after I've addressed some outstanding content issues in Economy and Culture. Fowler&fowler«Talk» 18:48, 5 August 2022 (UTC)[reply]
    Looks much better, especially the images, thanks F&F and Sandy. I can appreciate that music information is not always as quickly available as other forms of culture (though certainly no less important), since part of its appeal is that it often transcends written analysis :) Aza24 (talk) 19:34, 5 August 2022 (UTC)[reply]
    Aza24, I think that's everything on your list now? SandyGeorgia (Talk) 21:53, 5 August 2022 (UTC)[reply]
    Yes, I believe so—brilliant work. Close without FARC. Aza24 (talk) 21:59, 5 August 2022 (UTC)[reply]
    Thank you. I've added some more on music. We're now up to Bon Jovi. For the last 20 years, I will keep looking ... Fowler&fowler«Talk» 23:16, 5 August 2022 (UTC)[reply]
Observations on the History section by wtfiv

In my quick once over, it looks very good. Definitely something worth sharing for TFA. Here's my "take it or leave it" suggestions. I certainly won't jump in myself, as this article is too close to finish and an FTA deadline to have a someone new to it just jump in:

  • Early history: up to 1835, para 1: Tthe first sentence could be broken into two at the comma. Then, the third sentence starting with "It's native population...}} should be the second sentence. The third sentence would become It is in a larger geopolitical....ambitions.... All subsequent sentences about Sikkim, Gurkha and Butan are amplifications of this third statement. It's a clearer organization, but the downside is that it breaks the continuity of the citation, but that could be fixed easily if the suggestion is taken.

Done Very good points. Hadn't seen this. I did quick prose edits earlier and some of your suggestions were anticipated and adopted though not always precisely in your formulation. (A few days ago the History was drastically reduced and parts had become incoherent). Now to the individual suggestions.

  • 1835–1857: East India Company rule, para 4: "a dormant hostility" seems akward. I'm assuming, there's not outright aggression, but consider removing "a dormant" and just leaving hostility. or replacing "dormant hostility" with something like "friction", "rancor", or "latent".

Done changed to "a burgeoning hostility," and later to "came to a head."

  • 1835–1857: East India Company rule, para 5": Move sentence "It later became the summer capital..." to the end of the paragraph. This puts the sentences about "Hill Stations" together.
    :) Excellent! Done
  • 1858–1947: British Raj, para 1: Consider "when necessary" over "if necessary". The latter implies possible action; the former denotes irregular temporal application.
    Very good. Done
  • 1858–1947: British Raj, para 2: "significant stopping" seems a bit awkward. Consider just "stopping" or "frequent stopping" or "frequent stops".
    I think lengthy or protracted was meant, but it is not needed. Removed. Done
  • 1858–1947: British Raj, para 3: "Earlier after" seems a bit awkard. Also there seems no earlier, as this paragraph starts at 1833, and the previous ended in 1881. Consider deleting "Earlier"
    Good. Done
  • 1858–1947: British Raj, para 3: "Hill stations were" works, but the previous sentence is an imperfect tense, and "were", which logically links to the preceding sentence implies a perfect tense. Consider "Hill stations became"
    Yes. Done. I think the chopping down of last week might have caused it. Thanks for noticing.
  • 1858–1947: British Raj, para 3: "Just about prohibited" seems a bit awkward. Wouldn't it be prohibited or not prohibited? Consider possibilities like "almost all Indians were prohibited", "the majority of Indians prohibited", "the vast majority of Indians were prohibited" or "Indians were almost always prohibited"
    Preferred the last. Your best point. Thank you.
  • 1858–1947: British Raj, para 4: I think a comma after "Nepal and Sikkim" would be useful . It would trigger the reader that the following statement on migrants is a dependent clause adding description and not specifying a subset of Nepal and Sikkim. (Context makes it clear upon thinking about it, but I felt I had to do a double-take on reading the sentence.) Also, it may be useful to say "Nepal and Kingdom of Sikkim, to differentiate the kingdom from the Indian state founded in 1975..
    Done
  • 1858–1947: British Raj, para 4: For "Earlier, in the 1941 census of India," consider substituting. "The 1941 census of India.
    Done
  • 1858–1947: British Raj, para 4: Paragraph 4 could use restructuring. There is a contrastive structure here that is sequentially mixed up: Negative issue (Gorka lack rights; British reluctant to grant them for political reasons; positive reason to give rights (Gorka are a large part of the population; Gorka were recruited; Gorka make up 86%); negative issue (Ghorka suffer discrimination). I'd suggest reworking this. Here's one situation, but it opens the sentence with the dreaded conjuction "but". I offer this only to show the contrast:
    As the British Raj drew to a close in 1945, the Nepalese-speaking Indian Gorkha residents of Darjeeling had not been granted rights as British Indian subjects. These residents were at the bottom of the economic ladder, and their physical appearance was now the occasional object of racism by Indians from the plains. The 1941 census had shown that the Gorkha in Darjeeling constituted 86% of the population. They made up 96% of the labour force in the tea gardens. Many had been recruited to fight for the British in Second World War. But the British had been reluctant to displease the governments of Nepal and the Kingdom of Sikkim whose feudal labour regimes many original migrants had sought to escape.
    Implemented in full. Very good. Ty Fowler&fowler«Talk» 13:42, 5 August 2022 (UTC)[reply]
  • 1947 onwards: independent India, para 1: consider adding an adjective preceding "cottages". For example "vacated cottages", as I think- but am not sure- that the referent is cottages vacated by the British exodus.
    Yes. Changed to ... the British cottage were snapped up by the ... (if you think it is too informal, I'll change it to bought quickly. Done
  • 1947 onwards: independent India, para 1: The role of the last two sentences is unclear. The first three lead to further marginailization of the Gorka. Then the last two suddently talk about recognition that was accepted. Was the demand for recognition of Nepali a result of marginalization? If so, how did a marginalized group get enough power to gain acceptance of a fairly strong demand? Or was this two separate issues evolving at the same time but independently? Because I'm unsure fo the context, I can't suggest an alternative.
  • 1947 onwards: independent India, para 2: Consider rewording this sentence "as porters, their fitness eliciting". Here's a suggestion "physical abilities and their fitness", eliciting..." This makes the Sherpas, exceptional physical ability, and fitness the topic of the dependent clause. The original just makes fitness in general the topic.
    Very good suggestion. Done
  • 1947 onwards: independent India, para 2: Consider rewording sentence beginning "The Himalayan Mountaineering" Tenzing has been the topic of the preceding three sentences, so culminating sentence could make him subject. Consider Tenzing became the first field director of the Himilayan Mountaineering Institute after it was established in Darjeeling in Novemeber 1954
    Again, excellent suggestion. Implemented.
  • 1947 onwards: independent India, para 4: The first sentence is unclear. The creation of Sikkim brought the Gorkhaland movement to the forefront. But why? Is it the creation of a threat to Ghorkas? Perhaps it can be inferred from mention of the (Kingdom of) Sikkhim in 1858–1947: British Raj, para 4, but it is not clear. Also, the status of Nepali is unclear. I think I can puzzle it out: It was accepted as a state language in 1961 (1947 onwards: independent India, para 1), but not a national language. But I think figuring this out puts a notable cognitive load on the reader. I can't offer a suggestion because it seems unclear to me.
    "The creation of Sikkim brought Gorkhaland movement to the forefront" I personally have some doubt over this sentence, don't know whether reference exist to support this. The sentence states the scenario simplistically. In reality, it was complicated and multi-layered. Sikkim, which was previously not a part of India, became a state in India through 1975 Sikkimese monarchy referendum. The relationship between India and Sikkim prior to that was also complicated (not in a negative sense). Anyway, with a not-so-large part of the neighboring eastern Himalayan hills becoming a full-fledged state, perhaps the pro-Gorkhaland movement got inspired (that the Gorka-predominant Darjeeling hills region can also become a state, a la Sikkim). I think that's the theme this sentence tries to convey. --Dwaipayan (talk) 01:49, 6 August 2022 (UTC)[reply]
    Thanks Dwaipayan for the insightful comment. I didn't see this earlier, but I did expand the history section in light of Wftiv's remarks. I hope I have addresses some of the issues you raised. Fowler&fowler«Talk» 20:14, 6 August 2022 (UTC)[reply]
    Wow! The gorkhaland movement description is so good now! It nicely describes the grievances, historical neglect, as well as the fact that granting statehood to other agitating/non-agitating movements (in other parts of India) provided impetus to Gorkhlanad movement over the years. This article, as the experienced SandyGeorgia said, is truly a masterpiece, thanks to Fowler&fowler.--00:48, 7 August 2022 (UTC)[reply]
  • 1947 onwards: independent India, para 4: "fighting between different groups" is not clear. Gorka vs. Indian Government; Gorka vs. Gorka? Class struggles between lower income Gorkas and wealthier Indians? Sikkim vs. Gorka? I think a bit of clarification here, if just general, would help a reader.

I'm through the history section, so I'll stop here. I'm not even sure how useful this is but I'll post it. Again, these are only suggestions. I think this article would fly proudly in the TFA without addressing any of these. Wtfiv (talk) 07:50, 5 August 2022 (UTC)[reply]

  • @Wtfiv: Thanks for the excellent comments. I've implemented them all in one way or other. The last bit from "Creation of Sikkim", I did not write. I was already in the article, and I might have added some citations. But let me figure out how to fix that para. Thanks again. Fowler&fowler«Talk» 14:04, 5 August 2022 (UTC)[reply]
Wtfiv we can't use colored templates at FAC and FAR, as they cause problems with the template limits in archives. The few you have added here will be OK, no need to change them, but please don't add any more (if you need to use a lot of coloring, you can use the talk page of this FAR, because templates on talk pages don't figure in to the overall template limit once the FAR is archived. SandyGeorgia (Talk) 13:04, 5 August 2022 (UTC)[reply]
user:Wtfiv I don't know who you are or where you came from but your comments on grammar and meaning are some of the finest I've read on WP. So thank you. Might I importune you some more? If you have the time could you go through: Geography, Climate, Governance, Utilities, Transport, and Education? I have to pare down Economy and address some outstanding issues in Flora and Fauna and Culture. Fowler&fowler«Talk» 18:40, 5 August 2022 (UTC)[reply]
Wtfiv came from James Joyce, Joan of Arc, and other very serious hard work FARs :) I pinged Wtfiv to here for these very skills. SandyGeorgia (Talk) 18:48, 5 August 2022 (UTC) [reply]
I see. Excellent. Fowler&fowler«Talk» 18:52, 5 August 2022 (UTC)[reply]
Thanks Sandy and Fowler&Fowler. Fowler&Fowler, I'll reply to your request for further copy editing on your talk page. (My preferred style of supportive editing is a bit different than the FA reviewer style I used here to minimize misunderstandings in a novel configuration of editor interactions.) I have to agree with the review team: All of you who worked on this, and in particular Fowler&Fowler have done an outstanding job with this! It wasn't a topic I had thought much about, but its one whose global relevance I really appreciate now. Wtfiv (talk) 21:01, 5 August 2022 (UTC)[reply]
FAR break
  • Close without FARC/Keep featured. Now that two sets of fresh eyes have been through, I am ready to declare that this article is at Featured status. There are still some straggling issues to be fixed, but I am confident they will be fixed, quickly please. These stragglers include sorting the extraneous references to Figures, addressing requests to add some topics to Culture (cuisine from modern sources, and "any information on music or the visual arts"), and the need to standardize the Roman numerals vs digits for school grades in Education.
    Relative to other "place/Geography" Featured articles, this is a masterpiece. It avoids NEW-sy RECENTISM and sourcing (which yields text that requires frequent updating, causing most Geography place articles to lose FA status), focuses on scholarly sources, and rather than being the typical sleep-inducing list of items one finds at most "place" articles (so-and-so is the mayor as of such-and-such date, the main companies are, and the like), it provides rich history, context and nuance in a wonderful read.
    The tendency towards over-illustration should be avoided. SandyGeorgia (Talk) 14:59, 5 August 2022 (UTC)[reply]
    Thank you SandyGeorgia. If it has improved at all from the shambling read it was last week, it owes no more to any person than you. I am working you your other points. Fowler&fowler«Talk» 18:25, 5 August 2022 (UTC)[reply]
    SG, I think the outstanding issues in Education are resolved. Not everything about a 3 square mile municipality is there, but enough for readers to get an idea. The business about the mid-day meals was removed by Dwaipayan because the number were for the district. The August 3, 2022 article by Bishal Chhetri uses only the Arabic numerals for the grades, and she/he teaches in a college in Darjeeling. Fowler&fowler«Talk» 23:22, 5 August 2022 (UTC)[reply]
    Good on education, struck several above, SandyGeorgia (Talk) 23:29, 5 August 2022 (UTC)[reply]
    Good morning, SG. What else is left for me to do? Fowler&fowler«Talk» 11:57, 6 August 2022 (UTC)[reply]
    I think I've reduced Economy as much as I could. Your edits earlier did much to improve the prose. Fowler&fowler«Talk» 11:59, 6 August 2022 (UTC)[reply]
    And I've reduced the Western Music in Culture, sent the Kathmandu concert to efn. Fowler&fowler«Talk» 12:00, 6 August 2022 (UTC)[reply]
    I forgot to mention that there are two things I have to do:
    • Fix some errors in the map (see the article's talk page)
    • Rewrite the last paragraph of History in light of Wtfiv's observations. I have a source that pithily summarizes it, so I don't need to hunt. Fowler&fowler«Talk» 12:12, 6 August 2022 (UTC)[reply]
    Looking good; I just added a new note about Deuchar (master's thesis) on the talk page here. SandyGeorgia (Talk) 15:18, 6 August 2022 (UTC)[reply]
    The history rewrite is done. Fowler&fowler«Talk» 20:11, 6 August 2022 (UTC)[reply]
  • Noting for Coords that Aza24 has registered a Close without FARC declaration above. SandyGeorgia (Talk) 23:30, 5 August 2022 (UTC)[reply]
  • @Hog Farm:? Nikkimaria (talk) 02:33, 6 August 2022 (UTC)[reply]
The above discussion is preserved as an archive. Please do not modify it. No further edits should be made to this page.
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