Wikipedia:Featured article review/Just My Imagination (Running Away with Me)/archive1

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The following is an archived discussion of a featured article review. Please do not modify it. Further comments should be made on the article's talk page or at Wikipedia talk:Featured article review). No further edits should be made to this page.

The article was removed by User:Joelr31 16:36, 21 December 2008 [1].

Just My Imagination (Running Away with Me)[edit]

Review commentary[edit]

I noticed someone tried this on the 9th but it was too soon. It's now been 3 days since this was on the main page, so here goes. I think this one is pretty obvious: The section about the song's content is totally unreferenced, there're only eight refs total, and a {{refimprove}} tag, so 1c and 2c apply. Obviously this was promoted ages ago, before the FA criteria were so strict. Ten Pound Hammer and his otters • (Broken clamshells • Otter chirps • HELP) 03:56, 11 November 2008 (UTC)[reply]

  • Comment. I spent some time with this article while it was on the main page. I think it would help if we could be specific about what needs referencing, and where (if) those references could be found. If more references can be found, then I'd be all for it. But I'm no fan of references for the sake of it, and my feeling is that there's not much (I'm not saying not anything) that needs further referencing here. Admittedly, however, I've never worked on this kind of article before. --jbmurray (talk • contribs) 04:01, 11 November 2008 (UTC)[reply]
  • The sections on composition, origins, and covers are almost entirely unreferenced, and there seem to be problems with OR as a result. I would imagine that professional writers have dedicated plenty of pages to The Temptations, so there's probably something in print. Ten Pound Hammer and his otters • (Broken clamshells • Otter chirps • HELP) 20:40, 11 November 2008 (UTC)[reply]
  • I'm aware of that, but you haven't answered the question: what needs referencing? In the "Composition" section, I don't see anything that does, for instance. The information is either purely descriptive ("a full orchestral arrangement with strings and French horns adorning a bluesy rhythm track and guitar line provides the instrumentals") or is fully cited. Where would you require further citation in this section? --jbmurray (talk • contribs) 19:18, 12 November 2008 (UTC)[reply]
  • In all probability, you are correct in that the article would not pass today's FAC. However, I agree with Jbmurray; it's not the worst article, and with some referencing and slight expansion, the article has a shot at being kept featured. –Juliancolton Tropical Cyclone 20:46, 11 November 2008 (UTC)[reply]
  • Okay, there, it's no longer linked from the main page. Also, you'd have to really, really work hard at sourcing and do some more copy editing to fix this up. Ten Pound Hammer and his otters • (Broken clamshells • Otter chirps • HELP) 01:02, 12 November 2008 (UTC)[reply]
I agree with TenPoundHammer that this article needs work on sources to be considered a FA. Further, I would argue that there should be no grandfather clause for FA. Either an article meets the (current) requirements, or it doesn't (and so isn't a FA). --Falcorian (talk) 18:21, 12 November 2008 (UTC)[reply]
I agree. Ten Pound Hammer and his otters • (Broken clamshells • Otter chirps • HELP) 19:21, 12 November 2008 (UTC)[reply]

By the way, here're some lines I have issues with:

  • "and constantly pressured Whitfield to produce something"
    • This, for instance, is explained (with citation) in the very next sentence. No additional citation needed, and to add one would be clumsy. --jbmurray (talk • contribs) 19:30, 12 November 2008 (UTC)[reply]
  • "'Just My Imagination' is primarily a showcase for Eddie Kendricks"
    • This seems to me to be purely descriptive. No citation needed. --jbmurray (talk • contribs) 19:30, 12 November 2008 (UTC)[reply]
  • "The song was recorded in the midst of a bitter feud"
    • Obviously, this is a topic sentence, and doesn't require a citation. To add a note here would again be clumsy. Another citation in this paragraph, however, might clarify things... --jbmurray (talk • contribs) 19:30, 12 November 2008 (UTC)[reply]
  • "were no longer on friendly speaking terms. Nevertheless,"
    • ...here, for instance. But it seems clear that this paragraph draws on the one source, as cited at the end. --jbmurray (talk • contribs) 19:30, 12 November 2008 (UTC)[reply]

Ten Pound Hammer and his otters • (Broken clamshells • Otter chirps • HELP) 19:21, 12 November 2008 (UTC)[reply]

  • I thought they were examples of 1c concerns. Can you give examples of prose (1a) concerns? --jbmurray (talk • contribs) 19:18, 13 November 2008 (UTC)[reply]
  • Verifiability. The lack of comprehensive referencing to reliable sources is a serious concern. Just to take one example, the following paragraph is unreferenced:
During the late 1960s and early 1970s, producer/composer Norman Whitfield and lyricist Barrett Strong crafted a string of "psychedelic soul" tracks for the Temptations. After the success of Sly & the Family Stone's fusions of psychedelic rock and soul music, particularly their 1968 hit single "Dance to the Music", several soul acts, including the Temptations, The Isley Brothers, and The Four Tops, began releasing similar records. By 1970, the Temptations had released three albums of psychedelic soul material (Cloud Nine, Puzzle People, and Psychedelic Shack), which also showed heavy influence from rock acts such as The Beatles, The Rolling Stones, and Jimi Hendrix. During this period, the Temptations released psychedelic-based hits such as "I Can't Get Next to You", "Psychedelic Shack", "Ball of Confusion (That's What the World Is Today)", and the Grammy Award-winning "Cloud Nine".

It it isn't possible to get a citation for the claim that Norman Whitfield and Barrett Strong produced several "psychedelic soul" tracks for the Temptations then it should go. If it is possible, then it needs to be done. The same could be repeated for every sentence above. Then there are all the other unreferenced or partially referenced parargraphs.

OK, as I'm sure you know, WP:CITE says that "Sources should be cited when adding material that is challenged or likely to be challenged, when quoting someone, when adding material to the biography of a living person, when checking content added by others, and when uploading an image."
Perhaps you can explain which of these conditions applies in each sentence of the paragraph you quote?
To me, it seems quite uncontentious and descriptive. --jbmurray (talk • contribs) 21:14, 12 November 2008 (UTC)[reply]
Whilst I don't think that it is particularly contentious, I still challenge the material (ipso facto the first condition applies). It is not unknown for editors, writing with the best of intentions, to misinterpret sources or just make plain and simple errors. Verifiability is hugely important. Greenshed (talk) 18:52, 13 November 2008 (UTC)[reply]
Which material are you challenging? All of it? --jbmurray (talk • contribs) 19:17, 13 November 2008 (UTC)[reply]
Having recently taken an article through the good article process I was required to cite everything and rightly so. Soul music is not a topic that particularly interests me and so I do not intend to work line by line through this article and so I shall just give one example. I am not trying to be contentious but every time I read uncited material in the WP, I think to myself that there is a markedly greater chance that it may turn out to be wrong that material from a reliable published source. To answer your question, I am challenging the claim that Norman Whitfield and Barrett Strong produced several "psychedelic soul" tracks for the Temptations. I suspect that there are reliable sources which could be cited. If this is to be WP's best work then we should have them. Greenshed (talk) 21:53, 13 November 2008 (UTC)[reply]

As it stands, this article is way below the featured article standard. Greenshed (talk) 20:02, 12 November 2008 (UTC)[reply]

  • Comment. Seriously, guys, I think that this is a case where people counted the citations rather than reading the prose. Again, I suspect that someone armed with the Otis Williams book might be able to judiciously add another citation or two, or perhaps rephrase to clarify the that the same source covers multiple claims. But this article is not significantly uncited. Moreover, people are saying things along the lines that "someone must have written about this stuff." But people don't usually publish books about the obvious.
  • If, however, we can point to a significant source that has been overlooked, presumably one that's been published in the past few years since this article was featured, then of course it should be consulted. But I don't see anyone saying that. (Though I do think that this is quite possible.) --jbmurray (talk • contribs) 21:14, 12 November 2008 (UTC)[reply]
  • Comment: I just added refs for cover versions and removed the unverifiable Prince and whatever odd Texas Band covers. Still, needing citations are: The instrumental process and background info.--Andrewlp1991 (talk) 21:22, 13 November 2008 (UTC)[reply]
  • Comments The prose is globally satisfying (though I am not competent on that part), and the recent edits by Andrewlp1991 have been greatly helpful on the verifiability issue for the 'Cover versions' section. A lot of unsourced material has been removed since the passage on the Main Page, but there are still entire paragraphs without citations and all sections except the aforementioned one lack citations, to which we can add the photo's description.
  • The only citation of the section 'Composition' is [2], it covers only the last three sentences of the first paragraph. This being an interpretation of the lyrics by one critics, other analysis are needed, in order to be comprehensive and not to rely entirely upon a single source, as required by our policies on verifiability and neutral point of view. Recent FAs I have read on songs, films or video games have multiple sources for analysis of lyrics and plot. The second paragraph is unreferenced and has been objected as probable original research.
  • The section 'Recording the song' has only two citations, to Williams & Romanows, again, it cannot be verified that it covers the entire section and even so, multiple sources should be used for this kind of sections where almost each sentence is challengeable.
  • I may comment later on the two other sections. Cenarium Talk 02:16, 14 November 2008 (UTC)[reply]
  • Question Thing is: Where can we find sources that analyze this song? I've searched Google Books and found only the Bronson article, beyond that no luck. Could the Temptations biographical book by Williams & Romanowski cited have any more info that anyone missed? Google Books lacks a preview for that. I also searched the New York Times archive from the early '70s, no coverage from that time. Rolling Stone website has only a three-sentence summary from their "500 Greatest Songs" list.--Andrewlp1991 (talk) 22:12, 14 November 2008 (UTC)[reply]
  • Hmm. There could be other print sources available, but if this is really all we have, I'd say there's probably no chance of this ever staying FA. I still strongly believe it should be delisted. Ten Pound Hammer and his otters • (Broken clamshells • Otter chirps • HELP) 00:29, 16 November 2008 (UTC)[reply]
  • Why? It's as thorough an article as it could be, given the sources. There's nothing likely to be challenged that's unsourced.
  • Anyhow, you misunderstand FAR. This isn't a vote. Yet you're treating it as such. The point is not to say that you want it delisted, but for us to discuss how it could be improved. Until and unless you can point concretely to ways in which it could be improved, then there's no progress here. --jbmurray (talk • contribs) 01:19, 16 November 2008 (UTC)[reply]
While voting for delisting is jumping the gun, I would support submitting this article as a Featured Article Removal Candidate. As regards the discussion above, the onus is on the contributor to provide sources and a lack of such sources does not eliminate the burden on the contributor. Rather, it points to verifiability and original research concerns. Greenshed (talk) 17:34, 16 November 2008 (UTC)[reply]
Yeah, you're right I kind of jumped the gun. I still think that this article needs a lot of improvement, and have been doing a serach but found nothing that isn't already available. The problems of original research I'm not sure how to fix other than by simply removing them. Ten Pound Hammer and his otters • (Broken clamshells • Otter chirps • HELP) 18:25, 18 November 2008 (UTC)[reply]

FARC commentary[edit]

Suggested FA criteria concern is citations. Joelito (talk) 23:57, 7 December 2008 (UTC)[reply]
  • Remove as nom, per 1c and 2c. Ten Pound Hammer and his otters • (Broken clamshells • Otter chirps • HELP) 05:54, 9 December 2008 (UTC)[reply]
  • Remove Agree with assessment by TenPoundHammer (talk · contribs). Cirt (talk) 20:42, 10 December 2008 (UTC)[reply]
  • Remove I do not agree with jbmurray (talk · contribs) that information that is "purely descriptive" does not need citations. A featured article has to live up to higher standards, and this one does not currently pass that standards set for a featured article (1C and 2C). Further, no work has been done on the article in almost a month, so it is unlikely to be improved soon. --Falcorian (talk) 20:52, 10 December 2008 (UTC)[reply]
  • Remove As above, per 1c and 2c, and to a lesser extent 1b/1d since only one opinion of a critic on composition/lyrics has been given in the article, while there certainly exist other reviews of this song. Cenarium (Talk) 15:43, 13 December 2008 (UTC)[reply]
The above discussion is preserved as an archive. Please do not modify it. No further edits should be made to this page.
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