Wikipedia:Featured list candidates/Laurence Olivier on stage and screen/archive1

Add links
From Wikipedia, the free encyclopedia
The following is an archived discussion of a featured list nomination. Please do not modify it. Subsequent comments should be made on the article's talk page or in Wikipedia talk:Featured list candidates. No further edits should be made to this page.

The list was promoted by Crisco 1492 14:37, 8 March 2015 [1].

Laurence Olivier on stage and screen[edit]

Laurence Olivier on stage and screen (edit | talk | history | protect | delete | links | watch | logs | views)

Toolbox
Nominator(s): SchroCat (talk) 16:18, 25 February 2015 (UTC)[reply]

Laurence Olivier was a superlative actor who was—alongside Ralph Richardson and John Gielgud—one of the finest of his generation. He was a huge presence on the stage, in film and in theatrical management – and he was active in radio and on television too. This list has had a major makeover recently, in line with the Olivier article itself, which is now FA-rated. All thoughts and comments are welcome. Cheers – SchroCat (talk) 16:18, 25 February 2015 (UTC)[reply]

Support – I worked with SchroCat on the Olivier biographical article, but he has laboured alone on this list. (I forged a note from my mother asking for me to be let off.) I am filled with admiration for the comprehensiveness of the coverage and the precision of the detail. I've learned a bit from this fine page (e.g. that LO returned to the role of Stanhope in 1934, which I didn't know.) Three passing quibbles, barely visible with the naked eye:

  • I think, on a second reading, I might re-examine the 8 June 1970 – 1 August 1971 entry for The Merchant. Other NT productions at the Vic and round the country are not shown as "National Theatre (Xxxxx Theatre)", and I'd be inclined to blitz the "National Theatre" and the brackets. And ditto for the Long Day's Journey three rows lower down.
  • I believe I read somewhere while we were working on the biog that Akash was not technically a hologram but some species of film projection onto something or other.
  • We have "Co-Director" ("As director", 16 September 1968) and "Co-director" ("TV" 19 December 1976).

That's my lot. Thank you for a top-notch page, SchroCat. Tim riley talk 15:06, 26 February 2015 (UTC)[reply]

Dr. Blofeld comments[edit]

  • " In 1946 he produced, directed and appeared as Henry V of England in Henry V" —1946? I'm very good with film years and could have sworn it was 1944! Timothy Dalton has the same problem!♦ Dr. Blofeld 20:41, 1 March 2015 (UTC)[reply]
  • "He also won the Best Actor award for Hamlet", -can you state the year?
  • I think you might add a bit on some of his most prominent stage roles in the lede and the years he did them and a bit more on his later film roles from 1950s onwards, Sleuth and Boys in Brazil spring to mind in the 70s. Just something to ensure there's a basic balance I think. Perhaps something like "He later received Oscar nominations for roles in Richard III (1955), The Entertainer (1960), Othello (1965), Sleuth (1972), Marathon Man (1976) and Boys in Brazil (1978)". I don't think that would bloat it too much with mentioning that and would give a good balance and make it more comprehensive to read without looking at the list. Just a suggestion.♦ Dr. Blofeld 20:49, 1 March 2015 (UTC)[reply]
  • "Throughout his career Olivier appeared in radio dramas and, from 1956, appeared on television, in both acting roles, and as an interviewee." -seems like there's some unnecessary punctuation here, perhaps reword to "Throughout his career Olivier appeared in radio dramas, and he made his television debut in 1956" - I think that should suffice. I don't think I'd mention in acting roles and as an interviewee.
  • "with an Honorary Award honorary award " -how many honorary awards is that!
  • Who is Hall? I see no previous link of the full name.
  • Not essential but it might be more informative if you stated the actual channels in the television section in the notes section to make it more resourceful. In the United States rather than just "First shown on US television", if I was an American reader I'd probably want to know if it was NBC or ABC or whatever for reference purposes. If it's too much trouble don't worry.
  • Ref 97- What is Genome?
  • It's a BBC project name/website name. - SchroCat (talk) 21:35, 1 March 2015 (UTC)[reply]
  • Refs 98 and 99. "Today's Special". The Argus. 3 January 1969. p. 16." -you state the author in ref 99, do you have the author for 98? "Willey, George (15 March 1970). "Majr Dramatic Event Due". The Argus. p. 39." -is that a typo of major? There's also an inconsistency there with dates with one in brackets, you'd expect the sources to be identical in formatting and content given it's the same publisher.
  • Yes, it was a (now corrected) spelling mistake, no there is no journo name given on the second one, and no, there is no inconsistency. For some unknown reason, the formatting of the date field changes depending on whether the journalist's name is known or not. Yes, it's bizzare, but there you go! - SchroCat (talk) 21:35, 1 March 2015 (UTC)[reply]

Cheers Doc, I think I've covered all these points - many thanks for your time and thoughts here. - SchroCat (talk) 09:54, 2 March 2015 (UTC)[reply]

Support — Good job, will make a nice supplement to the main FA. And I'll be using it within the next few weeks as there's a few of his films I've been meaning to see!♦ Dr. Blofeld 11:19, 2 March 2015 (UTC)[reply]

Ssilvers comments[edit]

Just a few comments from me:

  • Instead of talking about his Awards in the narrative introduction, I think you should only mention his most important (enduringly famous/admired) performaces on stage, radio and screen (whether they won awards or not), the way you do in the intro to the main article, beginning with "In 1930...." Also mention the most important broadcasts, since that is a section of this list article. Then, just note the awards and noms in the Notes section of the tables (but give the totals numbers in the narrative intro).
  • I think others (like Dr. Blofeld above) would expect the awards to be mentioned up top - SchroCat (talk) 09:49, 2 March 2015 (UTC)[reply]
  • Fine, but I was suggesting two items of greater importance: (1) When people look at a List of performances article, they are usually looking at the tables for more information on particular performances than is given in the person's main article. So I think you should add the nominations and awards to the Notes column. (2) In the intro, you need to have some information about which of these broadcasts listed are of particular importance or were particularly well-received. Once you have done (1) above, I think that Dr. B. might agree that repeating the awards in the intro (except for the total number of Oscars, Emmys, etc.) is redundant and is not why people would come to this article. But, as I said, removing these redundancies is the least important part of my comment above. -- Ssilvers (talk) 20:45, 2 March 2015 (UTC)[reply]
  • There's a long-standing consensus against including the awards as part of the notes column. Ordinarily there is a table (or set of tables) covering the awards on these pages unless, like Olivier, they have a page of their own. Re. your point 2, is that about the radio bradio broadcasts? If so, there is very little information about the radio broadcasts at all, so I'm going to struggle to come up with any detail to add I'm afraid. - SchroCat (talk) 21:06, 2 March 2015 (UTC)[reply]
  • OK, although I'd feel more comfortable about it if you would link me to somewhere that it was discussed, or an example or two that convinced you that it is a long-standing consensus, because the Notes column seems to me like an obvious place to look for this info, and generally more helpful than the bloated awards tables in awards sub-articles (which, I know, are customary, even if stupid). -- Ssilvers (talk) 21:15, 2 March 2015 (UTC)[reply]
  • I'll dig some strings out where similar lists have had his point discussed. - SchroCat (talk) 21:47, 2 March 2015 (UTC)[reply]
  • If a production played nightly, and you know both the opening and closing dates, you can give an estimated number of performances. If the production had Wednesday and Saturday matinees, that is 8 performances per week, except that London th eatres were usually dark on Christmas Day.
  • That's OR - any reviewer following would oppose on that basis. We cannot guess that all the runs had 8 performances, or that Olivier appeared in all eight. The sources are happy to leave gaps in their presentation of the figures if they don't know, and that is where I would feel more comfortable. - SchroCat (talk) 21:47, 2 March 2015 (UTC)[reply]
  • I think that steps into WP:OR a little too much. In a 3-month run, we don't kno how many performances he missed, or whether he did all the matinees, etc. If it wasn't clear enough for the sources to identify the number, I don't think we should try and do it by guesswork. - SchroCat (talk) 09:49, 2 March 2015 (UTC)[reply]
  • I think you should remove the amateur theatre productions at the top of the table, and just put in a footnote that he performed in more than half a dozen productions at school, mostly Shakespeare, playing Brutus, Puck and also female roles, including Kate.
  • Yep, although I've left the note in the text above the table, rather than as a footnote: I think it's OK there, but happy to move if you think otherwise. - SchroCat (talk) 09:49, 2 March 2015 (UTC)[reply]
  • Looks good. I made a copy edit to conform the style of the sentence to the previous two sentences. -- Ssilvers (talk) 20:45, 2 March 2015 (UTC)[reply]
  • I think you should say a little more about his radio career in the intro, since that is a whole section of this article.
  • A little more added, but there really isn't too much in the sources on this - somethong of a forgotten medium! - SchroCat (talk) 09:49, 2 March 2015 (UTC)[reply]
  • As I said above, what I think is missing is some qualitative description about the broadcasts (why did he choose these subjects, or choose to broadcast at all) and which of these broadcasts were of the greatest importance or were best-received. For example, were the WW2-era broadcasts supposed to be morale-boosting, while the others were commercial sponsor-driven, and so forth. -- Ssilvers (talk) 20:45, 2 March 2015 (UTC)[reply]
  • Why he chose a particular subject etc is outside the scope of any filmog I've seen, and this is a list of what he did professionally and when. Even in the main biogs of Olivier, his radio work is shoved into a distant third or fourth place, as he wasn't a radio performer: he was a stage performer who moved into films, and then TV, (oh and he appeared on radio too from time to time). It's a very much forgotten part of his career, but quite a minor too, when one looks at the bigger picture. This is also how we have previously covered Ralph Richardson and John Gielgud. - SchroCat (talk) 15:03, 4 March 2015 (UTC)[reply]
  • Shouldn't the radio broadcast table show what role(s) he read?
  • Not provided in the sources, unfortunately - SchroCat (talk) 09:49, 2 March 2015 (UTC)[reply]
  • Does that information appear, perhaps, in some kind of BBC listing? What source does Tanitch give? I'm only asking because this is a FLC, and so I just want to confirm that all reasonable sources have been pursued. -- Ssilvers (talk) 20:45, 2 March 2015 (UTC)[reply]
  • Tanitch gives no sources, he just provides the list. I've looked at newspaper and BBC listings for the time and they show the programme name only too, unfortunately. This is how we've previously covered similar performers such as Richardson and Gielgud. - SchroCat (talk) 15:03, 4 March 2015 (UTC)[reply]

Ssilvers (talk) 22:39, 1 March 2015 (UTC)[reply]

  • Many thanks Ssilvers - much appreciated! I hope I've done justice to your suggestions. Cheers - SchroCat (talk) 09:49, 2 March 2015 (UTC)[reply]

Support – Thanks for the explanations. -- Ssilvers (talk) 16:20, 4 March 2015 (UTC)[reply]

  • Many thanks, Ssilvers - your time and thoughts are much appreciated. Cheers - SchroCat (talk) 16:36, 4 March 2015 (UTC)[reply]

Support Really good list you have produced here, SchroCat. After getting Olivier's article to FA status, this sure looks like its on its way to FL as well. — Ssven2 Speak 2 me 13:26, 2 March 2015 (UTC)[reply]

  • Many thanks Ssven2 - much appreciated. - SchroCat (talk) 21:08, 4 March 2015 (UTC)[reply]


Comments from A Thousand Doors[edit]

Resolved comments from A Thousand Doors (talk | contribs) 23:48, 5 March 2015 (UTC)[reply]
Looks good overall. These are my edits. I haven't had a chance to look over the lead yet, but I've got some comments regarding the tables.
  • Was he in Oedipus, The Critic AND Uncle Vanya all on 1 May 1946?
  • The opening dates for the second run of Antony & Cleopatra look like they might be wrong.
  • Why is Henry VII italicised in All Star RADA Jubilee Matinée?
  • The date for the 1954 production of Night of a Hundred Stars looks wrong; could be a copy-paste error.
  • How come the 1958 production of Night of 100 Stars has no role specified?
  • There's nothing shown in the sources, unfortunately. - SchroCat (talk) 15:12, 4 March 2015 (UTC)[reply]
  • Assuming that the dates are correct, the Brighton run of Three Sisters needs to be below the 1970 run of The Merchant of Venice.
  • Similarly, Sybil needs to be below Saturday, Sunday, Monday.
  • The Chances, The Crucible, The Proposal and The Tumbler need to sort under C, P and T.
  • In the Actor table, roles such as Henry V and Richard III aren't wikilinked, but in the Filmography they are. Personally, I think wikilinking is the way to go.
  • I'd put the "All the productions were for BBC radio." note at the top, personally.
  • The radio broadcasts that begin with quotation marks all bunch together at the top of the table when sorted.
  • I'm not sure that "Filmography of Olivier" is the right caption for the Television table, given how there's another table with almost the exact same caption at the top of the page. Similar lists go with "Television appearances of [whoever]".
  • Was "Laurence Olivier: A Life a one-off programme or an episode of a series?
  • I think my main problem is the fifth column in the Actor table. With so many cells empty or with just single numbers in, it just doesn't look that pleasing aesthetically. Similar lists (such as the Terry-Thomas, David Niven, Hattie Jacques and Stanley Holloway ones) have Notes columns instead, and spell out "109 performances" in full, rather than just "109". Personally, I think this looks much neater. You could put the "Also director" info in there as well.
  • The other filmogs don't have as complete a list of number of performances to add, which is why this one has been split out (as we did with John Barrymore on stage, screen and radio). Its a judgement call when it comes to whether there is enough information to justify dedicated column, and in this case I think we can, as it stands. - SchroCat (talk) 16:10, 4 March 2015 (UTC)[reply]
  • I'm also seeing title case in a few places where I would normally expect to see sentence case. "Birthday Gala", for example, doesn't strike me as a proper noun, but if "Bob Hope Birthday Gala" was the name of the production, then obviously it needs to be in italics. Similarly, "A Celebration in memory of Michel Saint-Denis" seems to me that it should either be "A Celebration in Memory of Michel Saint-Denis" or "A celebration in memory of Michel Saint-Denis".
  • I'm not sure whether those are formal titles or not. I've gone for not, and italicised accordingly - SchroCat (talk) 08:37, 5 March 2015 (UTC)[reply]

Hopefully I'll find some time tomorrow to look over the prose. I doubt that I'll have much to say. A Thousand Doors (talk | contribs) 00:06, 3 March 2015 (UTC)[reply]

All done which require no return to the sources to check: I will do the remainder shortly, once I am back with the material. Thank you for your thoughts and sharp eye. - SchroCat (talk) 16:15, 4 March 2015 (UTC)[reply]

All now sorted. Thank you - SchroCat (talk) 08:37, 5 March 2015 (UTC)[reply]
  • I'm not that familiar with Oedipus Tyrannus – is "Suppliant, Guard and Servant" one role or three?
  • Three minor parts, often covered by one actor - SchroCat (talk) 15:12, 4 March 2015 (UTC)[reply]
  • The reason I ask is that there is a bit of inconsistency within the table with regards how multiple roles are presented. Sometimes it's with an ampersand (e.g. "Romeo & Henry V" and "Oedipus & Mr Puff", other times with a slashes (e.g. "Presenter/speaker" and "Speaker/prologue"), and on one occasion with an "and" (i.e. "Suppliant, Guard and Servant"). I think it would be best just to stick with one format. I'd go with the "and"s myself. A Thousand Doors (talk | contribs) 23:48, 5 March 2015 (UTC)[reply]
  • "Host/Performer White Tie and Tails" – I wasn't entirely sure what this meant. He hosted the evening overall, and he was also a performer in White Tie and Tails?
  • "Dr Astrov" or "Dr. Astrov"? I'd go with the latter.
  • I've gone with the former, which is standard in BrEng. - SchroCat (talk) 16:15, 4 March 2015 (UTC)[reply]
  • In that case, "Dr. Ivan Chebutikin", "Dr. Christian Szell", "Dr. Jan Spaander", "Dr. Anthony Wainwright", "Dr. Totenkopf" and (presumably) "Supt. Newhouse" also need to be changed. A Thousand Doors (talk | contribs) 23:48, 5 March 2015 (UTC)[reply]
  • "Also Director" or "Also director"? I'd go with the latter. A Thousand Doors (talk | contribs) 23:48, 5 March 2015 (UTC)[reply]
  • The lead looks good. You use the word "important" twice in quite quick succession, so it might be worth changing one of them. I also think it might be worth stressing that the Special Award for Henry V specifically – the way it reads at the moment, it would be easy to assume that the award was for Olivier himself. A Thousand Doors (talk | contribs) 23:48, 5 March 2015 (UTC)[reply]
  • All tweaked and sorted, I think. Many thanks for your thoughts. - SchroCat (talk) 16:17, 6 March 2015 (UTC)[reply]

Support Two final comments:

  • WP:DATERANGE suggests using unspaced en dashes for ranges of days within the same month, i.e. "7–12 August 1944" rather than "7 – 12 August 1944".
  • If Oedipus and The Critic began in October 1946, then it needs to be between the two King Lears.

Great work! A Thousand Doors (talk | contribs) 13:47, 8 March 2015 (UTC)[reply]

The above discussion is preserved as an archive. Please do not modify it. No further edits should be made to this page.
Retrieved from "https://en.wikipedia.org/w/index.php?title=Wikipedia:Featured_list_candidates/Laurence_Olivier_on_stage_and_screen/archive1&oldid=1138480911"