Wikipedia:Featured list candidates/List of Bonanza episodes/archive2

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The following is an archived discussion of a featured list nomination. Please do not modify it. Subsequent comments should be made on the article's talk page or in Wikipedia talk:Featured list candidates. No further edits should be made to this page.

The list was not promoted by Dabomb87 23:08, 23 November 2010 [1].

List of Bonanza episodes[edit]

List of Bonanza episodes (edit | talk | history | protect | delete | links | watch | logs | views)

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Nominator(s): Jimknut (talk) 22:08, 2 November 2010 (UTC)[reply]

I am nominating this for featured list because Bonanza was a long-running television series and generally regarded as a classic. I have addressed all suggestions in the peer review which is now archived. I believe that the article has met the criteria to become a featured list.

Two items of note:

  • Bonanza aired on American television on NBC before the days of cable TV, internet, and home video. Thus, unless the tuned in to a local independent broadcast, people in America who were watching televison back then had only the three networks to choose from (NBC, CBS, or ABC). Because of this I have chosen to lsit in the overview section all the shows that aired opposite Bonanza during its 14-year run. It has been suggested to me that only people in the United States would be interested in this. I disagree and think that people in other countries might be interested as well, thus getting a fuller spectrum of American television in the years 1959–73.
  • In the past the web site All-movie has been used as a reliable reference source for featured list. All-movie documents every episode of Bonanza individually. Rather than have an individual reference for each of Bonanza's 430 episodes (which would make for a ref list so long that it would almost justify its on page) I have used an alternate site called Bonanza World which has the episodes listed in a season-by-season format. I've check the information on both sites (Airdates, episode titles, names of directors and writers) and they both correspond with one another. Thus I think Bonanza World can be offered up as a reliable source.

I'm now opened to suggestions. Jimknut (talk) 22:08, 2 November 2010 (UTC)[reply]

Comments

Resolved comments from Matthewedwards :  Chat  05:55, 8 November 2010 (UTC)[reply]
* "The entire run of the series' 430 hour-long episodes were photographed and aired in color." -- photographed seems an odd word choice here. TV shows are shot on to film or tape usually, so recorded might be better. -- Is there a reference that all episodes, even the ones from 1959 were broadcast in color? Esp since most TV sets at that time didn't get color reception.
    • I disagree on this. For televison programs that are filmed the person operating the camera is usually refered to as the "Director of Photography" so I think "photographed" is a perfectly adequate term. The series was indeed aired in color from the very beginning. If added a ref for this statement.
  • "In its initial season Bonanza aired on Saturday evenings and placed only at number 45 in the Nielsen ratings." -- avoid using only -- in this context it's a WP:WEASEL word.
    • Removed "only"
  • "Beginning in the third season" -- does this mean sometime in the third season, or at the start of the third season?
    • I've reworded this so I hope it's a little clearer now.
  • "Bonanza was moved to Sunday nights were the ratings soared as the series become second only to Wagon Train as the most popular program on American prime time television." -- Check for typos, and recast so it's not a run-on sentence.
    • Typos checked and broken into two sentences.
  • "Canada, Brazil, Yugoslavia, Great Britain, France, Saudi Arabia, Thailand, Australia, and Japan." Don't link common words, names or phrases. These don't need linking. Everybody who speaks the English language has heard of these countries, and you shouldn't want your readers to navigate away from this article to one that has no relevance to the subject -- United Kingdom, not GB
    • Unlinked countries.
  • "thrice" is a bit of an odd word choice. Wikt:thrice says it's archaic, too.
    • removed
  • "Despite a move to Tuesday nights and an ambitious two-hour season premiere, the series slipped badly in the ratings" -- Why use despite here? Were shows airing on Tuesday nights supposed to get better viewing figures than those on Sundays? Don't use WP:PEACOCK (ambitious) or WP:EUPHEMISMs (slipped badly)
    • reworded
  • "The film was slated as a pilot for a new series which never materialized." so the series never materialized, or the film never did?
    • removed
  • Why are you linking to subsections of Bonanza, like Bonanza#Lorne Greene – Ben Cartwright and Bonanza#Pernell Roberts - Adam Cartwright when they have their own articles at Ben Cartwright (character) and Adam Cartwright?
    • Changed to links of the main articles about the characters.
  • In the schedule box, clarify that it's the schedule for US TV, and not every country it aired because almost certainly, it wasn't.
  • Whoever said that only Americans would be interested in seeing what aired opposite Bonanza, I tend to agree. In the peer review you said you thought it was relevant, but you're not showing any relevance. This list is for an international audience, is should be of interest to all, not just "Americans that would be quite a large group of readers". And as time goes on, and the series gets older, the age of the readers will get younger until listing what other shows aired at the same time becomes less relevant. If people really do want to know, point them to 1959–60 United States network television schedule et al. Right now there's no relevance or context. It might be better information if you said how well all the other shows performed against Bonanza, or something, but right now it means nothing.
    • I've removed this section
  • The cast box is suitable for a character page or main page for the TV show, but not a list of episodes.
    • Removed
  • The lede is too interested in who played who when. Out of the four paragraphs, three are devoted to this. If this was List of Bonanza characters, it might be okay, but it's not. You need to focus on introducing the episodes, which is the actual scope of the article. Also, per WP:LEDE, it's supposed to touch upon all aspects of the article, at least each section. There's no mention of DVD releases for one thing.
    • I tighted this up. There is a mention of the DVD releases.
  • "In 1988 NBC revived Bonanza by way of a television film entitled Bonanza: The Next Generation." -- replace with "with", don't use sprinkle salt-and-pepper weasle words
  • " Michael Landon Jr. ... Michael Landon Jr. ... Michael Landon Jr. ... Michael Landon Jr. ..." Stick to "Landon Jr." after you give his name in full the first time. Same with other actors names throughout the Lede
  • The section titled "TV movies and prequels", change "TV" to "television". In the prose, "television film" vs "TV movie" vs "TV-movie" be consistent with choice of phrases
  • "(Landon, Sr., was not involved in the production)." Unnecessary comma. Why is it important to note this?
  • "Michael Landon, Jr., again played Benjamin Cartwright in a second TV-movie entitled Bonanza: The Return."

corrected

Media files (WP:FL?#5(b))

  • File:Bonanza title screen.jpg is being used without a Fair Use Rationale. I doubt a valid one could be written because a title card does not meet WP:NFCC#8 ("Contextual significance. Non-free content is used only if its presence would significantly increase readers' understanding of the topic, and its omission would be detrimental to that understanding.") A title card does not significantly increase the readers' understanding of a list of episodes about the show.
    • Now replaced with an image of the four original cast members
      • The new image is still a copyrighted image. There is still no Fair use rationale for its inclusion on List of Bonanza episodes, and I doubt a valid one could be written because a photo of four characters does not significantly increase the readers' understanding of a list of episodes about the show. Matthewedwards :  Chat  05:55, 8 November 2010 (UTC)[reply]

Prose (WP:FL?#1)

  • In that section, fix the "played" and "starred" to present tense
    • I think it should remain in the past tense as production on this films has been completed.
      • Per MOS:TV, part of the WP:MOS, "References to the show should be in the present tense since shows no longer airing still exist, including in the lead" Matthewedwards :  Chat  05:55, 8 November 2010 (UTC)[reply]

Lede (WP:FL?#2)

  • For the DVD section, looking at Amazon, it appears that there's more DVD and VHS releases other than Season 1 and 2. Also, there's no mention of new media (Drelbcom channel has full Bonanza episodes, Retrovision and Project Free TV does too (I haven't checked out the legalities of any of these). There may be more, Amazon, iTunes, TV Guide, etc.
    • The copyright of several Bonanza episodes have apparently lapsed into the public domain, which acounts for DVD releases other than what I have listed. I don't know about the legality of the sites you mentioned so, for the moment, I think it's best not to mention them.
      • So why not say that the copyright of some episodes has lapsed? This is encyclopedic information. I've read the legals of the sites, and it looks like only Project Free TV is dodgy. You should mention these per the comprehensive FL criterion. Matthewedwards :  Chat  05:55, 8 November 2010 (UTC)[reply]
        • FYI, I was glancing through my copy of 5000 Episodes and No Commercials by David Hofstede (ISBN:0823084566) today, and on page 42 he reviews some of the older Bonanza DVD releases. Matthewedwards :  Chat  03:15, 15 November 2010 (UTC)[reply]
  • Per a precedence of previous FLCs, you need either episode summaries or season pages with summaries. See Wikipedia:Featured list candidates/List of 7th Heaven episodes/archive1 for a previous discussion. (There are a couple of others, but I remember this one because it was my nomination)
    • There may be a precedence but I don't think there's a set rule yet. Since Bonanza ran for 430 episodes a summary for each would make this page extremely long, so it's better just to have the episode titles here. Links to season pages can be added once those pages are created. However, let's do one thing at a time, such as getting this page in shape.
      • Well, there's MOS:TV#Episode listing that mentions that episodes such have a 100-200 word summary per episode. And there's MOS:TV#Multiple pages, which says that for shows with 80+ episodes, they should be split off into season pages. Summaries then appear on those pages, and the main list, while still keeping airdates, titles, directors, etc, should not have plot details. And there's WP:SS that applies as well Matthewedwards :  Chat  06:09, 8 November 2010 (UTC)[reply]

Style (WP:FL?5(a))

  • The use of colours is a bit haphazzard, some are a bit glaring. Do you need them at all?
  • WP:ELNO. There's too many unofficial websites linked in the EL section

WP:V

  • Article appears to be verified by unreliable sources.
  • Regarding http://bonanzaworld.net/ as a reference. Even though you might have checked that all information on this site corresponds with the information at AMG, we don't know that, and you can't expect someone go verify 430 pages at AMG with 430 pages at this site. That's 860 pages you're expecting us to go through. It's obviously a fansite, it's not very professional because I've spend 5 minutes going through it and already found typos. See WP:FANSITE#11. "Links to ... most fansites, except those written by a recognized authority." Who writes and maintains this site? What authority do they have in the world of Bonanza? What other than your say-so makes it a WP:RS? To determine the reliablity of the site, we need to know what sort of fact checking they do. You can establish this by showing news articles that say the site is reliable/noteworthy/etc. or you can show a page on the site that gives their rules for submissions/etc. or you can show they are backed by a media company/university/institute, or you can show that the website gives its sources and methods, or there are some other ways that would work too. It's their reputation for reliabilty that needs to be demonstrated. Please see Wikipedia:Wikipedia Signpost/2008-06-26/Dispatches for further detailed information. I noticed in the references, you say Bonanza Ventures, Inc., and NBC, Inc. are the publishers of this site, but reading the website, they clearly aren't.
  • The link you're using for Ref 4: A Bonanzaworld website reader appears to have typed it up and stuck in on their site. How do we know it's typed up correctly for one thing? Second, if it is, it's a copyright violation. If you do think of a way to use the reference legitimately, the ref needs formatting correctly. Magazine title should be in italics, and with a magazine this old, you should give the publisher and location, issue # etc, so that if someone does want to verify it, they have a chance of finding the magazine
  • What makes http://www.tvhistory.tv/ a reliable source? It looks like http://www.tvhistory.tv/1959-PrimeTime.jpg et al are copyright violations
  • What makes http://ponderosascenery.homestead.com/scenes3.html a RS?
  • There are plenty of published books about Bonanza listed at Amazon, why don't you use those instead of unreliable websites? Same for books about ratings and schedules. Look at the books used as references at articles like 1959–60 United States network television schedule#References

I don't think this article is anywhere near FL-ready, so I must oppose at this time. Matthewedwards :  Chat  02:29, 4 November 2010 (UTC)[reply]

  • Oppose - On sources alone I'll oppose, none of them seem to be verifiable. There seems to be no indication of where TVHistory retrieves their content. On Bonanza World the only FAQ or about I can find is on their forum. Regarding TVShowsonDVD it doesn't state where they get their information from. Afro (Talk) 06:55, 4 November 2010 (UTC)[reply]
  • If thats the case then I have no problem with it, what threw me off about it was on the FAQ "The site is owned and maintained by BlueFrog Studios.", if its owned by TV Guide, I guess I have no problem with it. Afro (Talk) 07:33, 4 November 2010 (UTC)[reply]
  • I've ordered one of the books about Bonanza and will use that as a reference once I get it. This may take a few weeks so I'll have to put the ref chances on hold until then. Can we hold the page in FLC "limbo" until then? Jimknut (talk) 03:33, 8 November 2010 (UTC)[reply]


The above discussion is preserved as an archive. Please do not modify it. No further edits should be made to this page.
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