Wikipedia:Featured list candidates/List of FC Barcelona presidents/archive1

The following is an archived discussion of a featured list nomination. Please do not modify it. Subsequent comments should be made on the article's talk page or in Wikipedia talk:Featured list candidates. No further edits should be made to this page.

The list was promoted by The Rambling Man 15:49, 6 July 2010 [1].

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List of FC Barcelona presidents

List of FC Barcelona presidents (edit | talk | history | protect | delete | links | watch | logs | views)

• Featured list candidates/List of FC Barcelona presidents/archive1

Nominator(s): Sandman888 (talk) 13:19, 13 June 2010 (UTC)

I am nominating this exciting list of Presidents of Barcelona to FL. It's been through PR and obtained two copy-edits by other editors. Sources should be a-okay. I have another list here, which has two supports and is a month old now. Sandman888 (talk) 13:19, 13 June 2010 (UTC)

• Disclosure: I have informed all reviewers of the previous article I've had here, to garnish reviews. Sandman888 (talk) 06:51, 26 June 2010 (UTC)

Resolved comments from The Rambling Man (talk) 18:23, 28 June 2010 (UTC)

Comments (sorry it's taken a while to get to this...) I think five paragraphs of lead is a little too much for a list of this size. Deleted some text. Consider a translation for the lead image, this is English Wikipedia and our target audience probably doesn't speak fluent Spanish. translation is in alt text, thought that was a neat solution. Do you think it should go under the picture? Maybe a little text box in the lead with the most relevant part of the advert would be neat? I like the alt text too though. The Rambling Man (talk) 10:46, 26 June 2010 (UTC) I put in a box, it's not very pretty, but okay. I would feel cheated as a reader if some parts where missing, so I think it shd include the whole translation. Sandman888 (talk) 12:55, 26 June 2010 (UTC) "Spain's first truly national league" what do you mean by "truly"? There where some attempts before 1929, but not all of Spain was included (but included more teams than in a strictly regional league). I've removed truly, as this is the first official league. advert->advertisement. Done "players of the standing of Josep Escolà," this is POV. Part of del. text "In 1978 Josep Lluís Núñez became the first elected president of FC Barcelona, and since then members of the club have elected the club president." was Nunez elected by members? If so then the subsequent sentence isn't strictly correct. "ever since", is that better? " longest serving" hyphenate. Done Be consistent with the diacritics on Nunez. fixed 1 instance two and a half or two-and-a-half... Both with hyphens. Worth mentioning Rosell in the lead as the "president-elect" Wrote a line. The Rambling Man (talk) 10:22, 26 June 2010 (UTC)

• Thank you very much for the thorough review (and any pending). Sandman888 (talk) 20:49, 28 June 2010 (UTC)

Resolved comments from Giants2008 (27 and counting) 22:07, 4 July 2010 (UTC)

Comments – "taking over the presidency in order to save the club from extinction. Done "The process of electing a president of FC Barcelona was closely tied to Spain's transition to democracy in 1974 and the end of Franco's dictatorship." It would be nice if Franco was linked here. Linked Spain under Franco Few concerns regarding the last paragraph. First, what is Rosell's first name? Done This is the only place in the lead where Presidents is capitalized. Judging by the rest of the page, it shouldn't be. Done "and he will formally take over the presidency on June 1, 2010." That was almost four weeks ago. my mistake, is July, 1. This entire paragraph is only one sentence, which is not overly long. How about merging it with the prior paragraph? Doesn't really fit in. I wanted to wait to July 1 to make changes to it, didn't expect the FLC to take this long (nom. before election). Looked at as a whole, the lead is very long (currently seven paragraphs). In addition to the merge suggested above, the fourth and fifth paragraphs aren't long and seem like viable candidates for combining. That would leave five paragraphs, which is still long but not overwhelming. I am a bit confused, usually a long lead is a good thing. I've merged 4&5, but they are about different topics, hope none will mind that tho. Again, why is Presidents capitalized in the List of Presidents section heading? This should be consistent throughout, one way or the other. Yep, fixed. What makes Bleacher Report (reference 6) a reliable source? Giants2008 (27 and counting) 22:34, 26 June 2010 (UTC) Replaced with cnn ref. Thank you very much for the review, hopefully all concerns have been addressed. Sandman888 (talk) 20:49, 28 June 2010 (UTC)

• Support – Meets FL standards. Giants2008 (27 and counting) 22:07, 4 July 2010 (UTC)

• I have no problems with this becoming a featured list, although i have never edited in anything similar (club presidents, club owners, etc). However, it is definitely WP material. I am neutral. - --Vasco Amaral (talk) 01:54, 28 June 2010 (UTC)

• • Thank you for the review, if there's something you could see improved, please do advice :) Sandman888 (talk) 19:24, 28 June 2010 (UTC)
• I support the featured list nomination. However, I would suggest we remove the "Managing Commission" ones. I think it is better to see Joan Laporta listed as one single line instead of 2 lines. Jordiferrer (talk) 08:19, 28 June 2010 (UTC)

• • Thank you for the support, I can perhaps have both managing commissions included as notes rather than separate entries. Would that be better? Sandman888 (talk) 19:24, 28 June 2010 (UTC)

Resolved comments from Struway2 (talk) 14:14, 30 June 2010 (UTC)

Comments haven't looked at the prose *Honours column. No need for microscopic font. full sized Nationality. I'm not totally comfortable with "nationality" at the head of a column of countries and present-day flags. In sportsperson lists, the nationality is the country for which they played or were eligible to play sport. What does it mean in context of this list? it's not nationality in the FIFA sense, but in the wp:names sense. Wd you rather do w/o the column? I've had little to do with non-sporting lists, so had a look at various FLs that use a country or nationality column, and there's quite a difference in approach. List of Nobel laureates in Chemistry has a note at the top of the country column which explains the meaning of "country" in that list, and the FLC had a lengthy discussion on the matter. The lead of Rumford Medal implies that the nationality column refers to citizenship, but there are few sources. And Freedom Award's nationality column doesn't appear to have any rationale at all: David Dubinsky (born in what was then Russia and is now Belarus, lived in Poland from age 3 and went to the States as a teenager) is listed as Russian, David Sarnoff (born in what was then Russia and is now Belarus, went to the States age 9) is listed as American, and Prince Sadruddin Aga Khan is listed as all sorts of things. I have no issue with a column for nationality, even if it just means how the people concerned were described at the time (like English isn't really a nationality, but people were referred to as English whether technically they were or not). But, in my opinion, they do need sources, and they do need a note clarifying what "nationality" refers to. The flags should go, though. They add nothing apart from decoration, it's anachronistic to use modern-day flags, and we get into all sorts of complications about whether to use the historically-appropriate flag for when the person was born, when they were president, or what. I believe the Spanish flag changed on a regular basis during the 20th century. No flags now. If flags where used, they should be for when they became notable, i.e. were presidents (just like nationality). Of course that period can coincidence with flag-changes, but that is just the same problem with nationality. However I do think the use of historical flags (which is used all the time on es.wiki) wd add some nice historical information to the list. Sandman888 (talk) 12:01, 30 June 2010 (UTC) *What's the source for Otto Gmelin(g) being German? His FCB page doesn't give a nationality, and also spells him without the final 'g'. this Austrian site has him as German, http://www.laola1.at/911+M5fbf8538dcb.html, with extra G. There is a trend in Catalonia to 'localize' foreign names. References. Please give the actual titles of the pages as the reference titles. e.g. the page cited at ref#5 is entitled From the 75th Anniversary to the European Cup (1974-1992), ref#12 is Managing Commission (2006), etc... Done Ref#1: the English for Athletic Club is Athletic Bilbao, so for clarity, that's what I'd use as the publisher (either instead of Athletic Club, or in brackets after it) the team is known as Athletic Bilbao, but the publishing entity is Athletic Club, since the other doesn't exist. I do not believe we use common name for publishers. Ref#3: needs a publication date done Ref#5: the page cited doesn't have a publication date, and if it did, I don't think it'd be 1992 done *Ref#9 has lost its year retrieved done *Ref#6: I'd also question the reliability of Bleacher Report. Need to see some evidence of editorial control, fact-checking, etc. this gives 240 results for Bleacher Report reports at cnn.com - see also http://bleacherreport.com/about I'm aware that some of the articles first published on Bleacher Report are syndicated to other publications. But it's still a community where anyone can write an article, and from the FAQs I can't tell whether the editorial process concentrates on libel and literacy or whether it goes deeper than that. However, even if that writer's view of that part of the club's history is a reliable source, I can't find where it actually verifies "After the departure of Núñez in 2000 came some initial instability when Joan Gaspart took over the club in 2000." (hadn't noticed the repeated "in 2000" til I c&p'd that sentence :-) Uhh, rmvd second 2000. Have replaced source with cnn ref, and re-written to reflect that. Sandman888 (talk) 12:01, 30 June 2010 (UTC) In the lead, you use both the Spanish and Catalan names for the Catalan championship. One or the other, presumably the Catalan, would be best. And you only need to link it on the first mention. Done Your general reference, and even the Catalan-language version, uses Hans rather than Joan Gamper. Joan Gamper is the common one (123.000 on google vs 12.000 for "Hans Gamper") Tomàs Rosés should have a grave accent not an acute My mistake. Done But I'd definitely expect Montals father and son to sort under 'M' rather than 'C' and 'G' respectively? oh yes, certainly. For information, the link=off parameter in the date sort template isn't needed and advice is to remove it. date-script introduced it for some reason. Removed. Presume in the names, you've chosen to use just the one surname apart from to distinguish the Montals, but was wondering why Joaquim de Vargas rather than Joaquim Peris de Vargas? I don't understand that sentence. Sorry, I often fail to make myself clear. The Barca website lists him as Joaquim Peris de Vargas, and that's also the name of his WP page. If Vargas is his paternal surname, and Peris a forename, it seemed inconsistent to omit Peris when you included a second forename in Josep Lluís Núñez. Yes of course. Fixed. I'm sure you'd know this better than me, but is it right that Narcís de Carreras etc should sort under 'd'? see Spanish naming customs At both the Spanish and Catalan WPs, Narcís de Carreras is sorted under 'C'. Also, Enric Martí Carreto is listed as Martí i Carreto, sorted under 'M', which looks to me like Martí is his paternal surname rather than a second forename. Good call on Martí. Hmm. Sometimes people include the de/De. I'm not sure whether they shd sort one way or the other, but I've changed to the catalan convention you presented. One thing you may want to consider in future, if you have what appears too much information for the lead section, is separating the detail into a history section, leaving a basic lead, as was done at List of Manchester City F.C. managers. made it as such. Now the lead is a presentation to what FC Barcelona is, which, I must remind you, is often requested by a non-football editor at PR. Indeed. Though as this article deals with the club's presidents, a brief presentation of the president's role and how he is chosen should also appear in the lead. wrote a bit more. If you think a more formal presentation of the presidency is in order I have the statues kicking about somewhere. Content's fine by me, maybe the new stuff in the prose could do with a look-over by a friendly native-speaker, if such exist Struway2 (talk) 19:11, 30 June 2010 (UTC) Thank you vmi for the review. Hopefully all concerns have been addressed. Sandman888 (talk) 20:49, 28 June 2010 (UTC) More comments:

• There are 16 redlinks, and 23 blue. If all the redlinked persons are notable, then I wonder whether 16 out of 39 presidents i.e. 40+% satisfies Criterion 5a: "a minimal proportion of items are redlinked". I'm not a fan of the mass creation of unsourced uncategorised stubs "Fred Smith is a footballer who played 120 times for Template FC." like used to happen when redlinks weren't allowed at all, but I've opposed at other FLCs on this point and will probably do so here. The directors and other reviewers may well take a different view of the interpretation of "minimal".
  • Tbh, I'm unsure if the first couple of presidents can be said to be notable. Barcelona wasn't the same back then as it is now and several of the redlinks have only been there for a very short time. They are not covered by WP:ATHLETE, so wd like some input on this Sandman888 (talk) 11:02, 30 June 2010 (UTC)
    • It comes down to whether the president of FC Barcelona is inherently notable. If they're not, which is probably the view I'd take, then those names currently redlinked should be de-linked and the minimal proportion problem disappears. See what other people think. cheers, Struway2 (talk) 14:14, 30 June 2010 (UTC)
      • I doubt we can say that without overriding regular guidelines. I think it wd be dubious at best, to make the presidency of FCB a sufficient criteria of notability. Sandman888 (talk) 15:00, 30 June 2010 (UTC)
    • Now you're down to 6 redlinks out of 34 definitely-and-or-possibly notable presidents, I won't oppose on 5a. Struway2 (talk) 16:54, 4 July 2010 (UTC)

Support on everything but prose quality, I haven't reviewed the prose and will leave it to others to decide on that. After a considerable amount of work, I think the list now satisfies the remaining criteria. cheers, Struway2 (talk) 16:54, 4 July 2010 (UTC)

Resolved comments from Wizardman Operation Big Bear 22:02, 5 July 2010 (UTC)

*Comment: "the club has changed president a total of 44 times." changes presidents sounds better to me. Would it not be easier and more direct to just say "The club has had [insert number of presidents] presidents"? Dabomb87 (talk) 03:47, 3 July 2010 (UTC) "the club has had 39 different presidents." is inserted. Sandman888 (talk) 06:32, 3 July 2010 (UTC) "The club is owned by the members of FC Barcelona," the link goes to the supports of FC Barcelona; when I hear member, I think of the players and managers on the team, which doesn't seem to be the case. Maybe just have the link show as Supporters of FC Barcelona? well if you (right now) became a supporter of FCB, in the ordinary sense, that wd not make you a member. how about "club-members" ? That sounds better, yes. Wizardman Operation Big Bear "Núñez' main objective was to develop Barça into a world-class club" Núñez's you mean? Changed it. "During his two-and-a-half years with the club, the club won no trophies and, after three years Gaspart resigned his position immediately on February 12, 2003" Two things here. First, was it 2.5 or 3 years? Needs consistency. Second, immediately's probably not needed, since it brings a reader to a halt halfway through a sentence, if that makes sense. yeah makes some sense. now is "During his presidency of the club, the team won no trophies and, after two-and-a-half years Gaspart resigned his position on February 12, 2003" Put periods at the end of captions. If it feels like a fragment then expand it slightly. Wizardman Operation Big Bear 03:17, 3 July 2010 (UTC) added one period. Thanks for the review, hope everything is in order! Btw do you have a comment on whether the redlinked presidents are really notable (see struways cmt above) Sandman888 (talk) 06:32, 3 July 2010 (UTC) As for the presidents, I would think the president of a major club is notable. Wizardman Operation Big Bear 15:23, 3 July 2010 (UTC) Yes on that we agree, as a rule of thumb a president of a major club is notable (as there isn't a policy for this). But does that also mean that previous presidents who were in charge when the club wasn't well known, as a rule of thumb, will probably meet the general notability guidelines? Sandman888 (talk) 19:29, 3 July 2010 (UTC)

• Support. Wizardman _{Operation Big Bear} 22:02, 5 July 2010 (UTC)

• (OD) I've created some stubs and delinked some who where presidents < 6 months and no honours. There are 6 redlinks left, and all of them have been president for more or less a year and won no honours. Shd they be delinked? Sandman888 (talk) 16:05, 4 July 2010 (UTC)
  • It doesn't matter to me either way personally. They can stay linked, that's fine. Wizardman _{Operation Big Bear} 22:02, 5 July 2010 (UTC)

The above discussion is preserved as an archive. Please do not modify it. No further edits should be made to this page.