Wikipedia:Featured list candidates/List of FIFA World Cup winning managers/archive1

The following is an archived discussion of a featured list nomination. Please do not modify it. Subsequent comments should be made on the article's talk page or in Wikipedia talk:Featured list candidates. No further edits should be made to this page.

The list was unsuccessful by The Rambling Man via FACBot (talk) 00:25, 1 September 2020 (UTC) [1].[reply]

List of FIFA World Cup winning managers[edit]

Nominator(s): Emyil (talk) 15:11, 19 May 2020 (UTC)[reply]

I am nominating this for featured list because meets the criteria like other similar featured lists. Emyil (talk) 15:11, 19 May 2020 (UTC)[reply]

The lede could use expanding, if possible. ~ HAL 333 22:51, 19 May 2020 (UTC)[reply]

As the article has since been improved, I Support ~ HAL333 01:51, 15 June 2020 (UTC)[reply]

Resolved comments from ChrisTheDude (talk) 07:31, 2 June 2020 (UTC)[reply]

;Drive-by comment

The lead is far too short, contains unsourced information (notably the bit about those who won as a player and a manager) and reads very much as if it was written by a non-English speaker ("only manager to have succeeded winning two times" is not good English at all). More in-depth comments to come later...... -- ChrisTheDude (talk) 07:26, 20 May 2020 (UTC)[reply]

Further comments

"FIFA World Cup is" => "The FIFA World Cup is"
"the most prestigious association football tournament in the world" - source?
"Brazil have won five times, Germany and Italy with four titles each; Argentina, France, and Uruguay, with two titles each; and England and Spain, with one title each." - this doesn't make grammatical sense. Maybe "Brazil have won five times, followed by Germany and Italy with four titles each; Argentina, France, and Uruguay, with two titles each; and England and Spain, with one title each."
"Uruguayan manager Alberto Suppici led victory with Uruguay national team in the inaugural tournament in 1930." - this is horribly mangled English. I think what you mean is "Uruguayan manager Alberto Suppici led the Uruguay national team to victory in the inaugural tournament in 1930."
.....but is there a way to avoid saying "Uruguay" twice in the same sentence?
"20 different managers have won the World Cup" - don't start a sentence with a numeral
"all winning managers have been natives of the country they were in charge of" - don't end a sentence with a preposition. They also weren't in charge of the country, they were in charge of its football team.
"3 men have won the tournament" - again, don't start a sentence with a numeral.
As noted above, this sentence is unsourced
As mentioned earlier, the lead is far far too short. I would expect it to be around twice this long. There must be more to say, surely...........?
Photo caption: "Vittorio Pozzo is the only manager to have succeeded winning two times." - not good English at all. "Vittorio Pozzo is the only manager to have won the World Cup twice" would be better.
Not sure how I feel about having the nationality column before the name or the fact that the two nationality columns are identical. I will see what other people think about that.........
Ref => Ref.
Any reason why FIFA.com is linked in the refs but no other publisher is?
Also, the publisher is simply FIFA, not FIFA.com
Refs should have access dates
The Guardian ref should credit the author
Think that's it -- ChrisTheDude (talk) 12:56, 20 May 2020 (UTC)[reply]

Changed, added, changed, changed, done, done, changed, done, added, is lead too short? see: List of UEFA club competition winning managers, List of European Cup and UEFA Champions League winning managers, List of England national football team hat-tricks, List of FIFA World Cup hat-tricks, List of UEFA Cup Winners' Cup winning managers, List of UEFA Intertoto Cup winners, List of UEFA Intertoto Cup winning managers , List of UEFA Super Cup winning managers, changed, same format like similar lists, done, World Cup is FIFA’s organisation. I think FIFA’s sources are enough, done, done, done.--Emyil (talk) 14:47, 20 May 2020 (UTC)[reply]

Further comments

Photo caption: "Vittorio Pozzo is only manager to have winning the World Cup more than once." - this is not coherent English. Change it to what I actually put above.
"Suppici is the youngest manager to win the World Cup, only 31 years old in 1930" => "Suppici is the youngest manager to win the World Cup, being aged 31 in 1930"
"Zagallo and Menotti" - show their full names, as you have not mentioned them before this
"....are other winning managers in their 30s." -=> ".....were also in their 30s when they won the World Cup"
"Zagallo is 38 years old in 1970 and Menotti is 39 years old in 1978" => "Zagallo was 38 years old in 1970 and Menotti was 39 years old in 1978"
"del Bosque is the oldest coach to win the World Cup, 59 years old in 2010" => "Vicente del Bosque is the oldest coach to win the World Cup, being aged 59 in 2010"
You now have some sources where the publisher is FIFA and others where it is FIFA.com. It should be simply FIFA in every case.
You still have only linked FIFA in the refs. You should also link CNN and The Guardian.
Ref 3 has no publisher
All the best, ChrisTheDude (talk) 19:24, 20 May 2020 (UTC)[reply]

Changed, changed, done, done, changed, changed, done, List of UEFA club competition winning managers, List of European Cup and UEFA Champions League winning managers, List of European Cup and UEFA Champions League finals, List of UEFA Cup and Europa League finals, List of UEFA Cup Winners' Cup finals, List of UEFA Intertoto Cup winners, List of UEFA Super Cup matches (All of them have just UEFA sources.), done. Thank you for your comments.--Emyil (talk) 11:45, 21 May 2020 (UTC)[reply]

You don't seem to be understanding my comment "You still have only linked FIFA in the refs. You should also link CNN and The Guardian." I don't care where the sources come from, but if you re going to wikilink one publisher (FIFA) then you should wikilink them all. -- ChrisTheDude (talk) 12:17, 21 May 2020 (UTC)[reply]

You also haven't added a publisher to ref 3, even though you say you have...... -- ChrisTheDude (talk) 12:18, 21 May 2020 (UTC)[reply]

For that matter, ref 2 needs a publisher as well -- ChrisTheDude (talk) 12:18, 21 May 2020 (UTC)[reply]

Done.--Emyil (talk) 13:23, 21 May 2020 (UTC)[reply]

I made some fixes to your recent additions and am now happy to support -- ChrisTheDude (talk) 07:31, 2 June 2020 (UTC)[reply]
I don't know if this article meets the criteria for a featured list, but it is essentially a modified repetition of the "By manager" section of "List of FIFA World Cup winners", and can very easily be merged into it. Either that, or that section should be removed from the other article and its title should be changed from "winners" to "winning players". --Theurgist (talk) 23:11, 13 June 2020 (UTC)[reply]

Comment

I see Theurgist's comment above, I'm relatively content that this meets 3b as List of FIFA World Cup winners is a terrible lengthy article. It would be well served to add to that article a {{main}} template pointing at this list.
Shouldn't the title of this list contain a hyphen, i.e. "Cup-winning"?
I think, tipping a further nod to Theurgist's concerns, as there are few entries, you could expand the discussion over each manager, perhaps going through each one chronologically to enhance the value of this article.
"is the most prestigious" maybe "is considered" because Wikipedia shouldn't be making such claims.
Plenty of duplicated links in the lead, only link each tournament once, and on the first instance.
" prior professional football career. " as a player, manager or either?
I think the winning manager should be the second column, not the winning manager's nationality.
You have Sepp Herberger as being West German, but he was born in the German Empire...
Likewise Helmut Schön.
And Beckenbauer was born in Allied-occupied Germany!
Interesting to note (West German thoughts above aside), each winning manager was from the same country he led to victory, i.e. no "foreign" manager has ever won the World Cup.
Spaced hyphens in the refs should be en-dashes per MOS.
Ref 34, year range should use en-dash.
Refs 13, 14, those are "works" not publishers, and the "The" should be inside the links.
Compare ref 6 and 9, RSSSF in italics or not? I'd say no.

That's it for a quick pass. The Rambling Man (Stay indoors, stay safe!!!!) 09:45, 9 July 2020 (UTC)[reply]

Personally I would be content with removing the managers (and the Teams section) from List of FIFA World Cup winners so as to make it a list of winning players only. I'm pinging that list's original contributor User:Løken, with whom I had something of a content dispute a couple of years ago.

And regarding the nationalities, don't we use the individuals' contemporary countries as of the time of the events? Joachim Löw is not West German now, nor are teams still being managed by Soviet and Yugoslav coaches. --Theurgist (talk) 15:22, 9 July 2020 (UTC)[reply]

Quick comments –

"He managed the Uruguay national team in the 1950 to victory." This would read much better as "He managed the Uruguay national team to victory in 1950."
Minor point, but I've always found the section name List to be plain and generic, as we already knew the page in question was a list from the title. How about using Managers instead? Giants2008 (Talk) 22:36, 29 July 2020 (UTC)[reply]

Source review[edit]

Doing now. Aza24 (talk) 01:48, 17 August 2020 (UTC)[reply]

Can I get something for ref 1, issn, link, doi? (page number?)
Ref 2 needs ISBN 13 rather than 10 (use the converter)
Ref 3 missing publishing year/date (go to "cite" on the page and it should be there)
Link for ref 5 is broken
Ref 9 could maybe use the "last updated" date at the bottom of the page? Not sure about this one.
Everything else looks good, fix these and easy pass Aza24 (talk) 01:57, 17 August 2020 (UTC)[reply]

Emyil are you intending to return to this? The Rambling Man (Hands! Face! Space!!!!) 14:14, 19 August 2020 (UTC)[reply]

Oppose from Harrias[edit]

Seeing that the nominator had not edited for some time, I thought I would see if I could help push this over the line. But looking through some of The Rambling Man's points above, and trying to rationalise them with the article, I came to realise that a lot of the content is completely unreferenced. There is no general reference, so one would expect the references provided in each row to source that entire row. They do not: the Suppici reference does not discuss his nationality; Juan López Fontana is barely even mentioned in his one. I can't see what is supporting "Juan López Fontana was the first manager to manage a national team to World Cup victory without having had a prior professional football career. He managed the Uruguay national team in the 1950 to victory; Vicente Feola and Carlos Alberto Parreira, who both managed Brazil also achieved this feat." at all. The table is missing a table caption. I concur with reviewers above that there could be more discussion of the manager to help justify this as a standalone list. There is no doubt that with some work, this could make Featured status, but without an active nominator, this is best failing the FL process right now, and coming back when overhauled. Harrias ^talk 08:39, 27 August 2020 (UTC)[reply]

Closing note: This candidate has been unsuccessful, but there may be a delay in bot processing of the close. Please see WP:FLC/ar, and leave the {{featured list candidates}} template in place on the talk page until the bot goes through. The Rambling Man (Hands! Face! Space!!!!) 09:33, 31 August 2020 (UTC)[reply]

The above discussion is preserved as an archive. Please do not modify it. No further edits should be made to this page.