Wikipedia:Featured list candidates/List of Formula One fatal accidents/archive2

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The following is an archived discussion of a featured list nomination. Please do not modify it. Subsequent comments should be made on the article's talk page or in Wikipedia talk:Featured list candidates. No further edits should be made to this page.

The list was promoted by Giants2008 17:11, 4 September 2012 [1].

List of Formula One fatal accidents[edit]

List of Formula One fatal accidents (edit | talk | history | protect | delete | links | watch | logs | views)

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Nominator(s): NapHit (talk) 14:56, 19 August 2012 (UTC)[reply]

I am nominating this for featured list because after some extensive work over the past day and a bit the list now meets the criteria. I've revamped the references which seemed to be the main issue regarding the lists demotion. Thanks in advance for taking the time to review the list. NapHit (talk) 14:56, 19 August 2012 (UTC)[reply]

  • "Formula One, abbreviated to F1" —> "Formula One, abbreviated as F1" Thine Antique Pen 15:02, 19 August 2012 (UTC)[reply]
I've stuck it brackets instead. NapHit (talk) 15:09, 19 August 2012 (UTC)[reply]
Resolved comments from TBrandley (talk) 22:25, 19 August 2012‎ (UTC)[reply]
Comments
  • Ayrton Senna, the last man to die at the wheel of a Formula One car. → Ayrton Senna was the last man to die at the wheel of a Formula One car.
The sentence is fine as it is. NapHit (talk) 18:29, 19 August 2012 (UTC)[reply]
  • Remove flags from the table, as per MOS:ICON
I don't see any issue with including flags as the name of the country is accompanied with the the flag, which is the main concern of MOS:FLAG. I see no guideline there which prohibits the use of flags in the table. NapHit (talk) 18:29, 19 August 2012 (UTC)[reply]
  • "Ref" is missing a dot. "Ref." is what is should be.
added NapHit (talk) 18:29, 19 August 2012 (UTC)[reply]
  • Many linking problems in references. Please see WP:REPEATLINK, which states that links should be repeated in references. And, all linked.
That guideline says links MAY be repeated, so they don't have to be, which was what I thought the guideline was anyway, so I'm not going to link them. NapHit (talk) 18:29, 19 August 2012 (UTC)[reply]
  • Categories should be in alphabetical order
They are. NapHit (talk) 18:29, 19 August 2012 (UTC)[reply]

TBrandley 17:35, 19 August 2012 (UTC)[reply]

Thanks for the comments, I've replied above. NapHit (talk) 18:29, 19 August 2012 (UTC)[reply]
Ayrton Senna, the last man to die at the wheel of a Formula One car.
Untrue. Firstly, he technically died whilst out of the car receiving medical attention, but more importantly, two drivers have died in F1 cars since 1994, in non-Championship events. The sentence above the table List of people who died during a FIA World Championship race weekend, or elsewhere while driving a Formula One car means that they should be included. They both used to be on this list but were removed for some reason. Either they should be re-added or the wording changed to exclude deaths outside World Championship events. This would involve the removal of 14 drivers currently on the list. The two drivers were John Dawson-Damer, killed in a Lotus during a hillclimb at the Goodwood Festival of Speed in 2000, and Fritz Glatz, killed driving a Footwork FA17 in a EuroBoss race in the Czech Republic in 2002. Bretonbanquet (talk) 21:23, 19 August 2012 (UTC)[reply]
I see those two have been re-added - there may be some objections to that, as there were previously. The discussion is still on the talk page. My point is that either they should be included or the criteria should be worded to explain clearly who is included and who is excluded. I don't mind either way, so long as the list matches the criteria. Some people wanted the two later deaths excluded as the cars involved did not conform to the F1 regulations as they were written at the time of the accidents. But that would also exclude the Indy cars of the 1950s (which never conformed to any F1 regulations) and any modified cars used in testing. It's a complicated subject. Bretonbanquet (talk) 21:42, 19 August 2012 (UTC)[reply]
I've added them back as you've noticed. Yes I read the discussion page, there seemed to be a preference for what having the list in its current guise. I think the way it is now the best way to do it, I think its clarified in the text, the list refers to people driving an F1 car regardless of where it is etc. I'll try and make it clearer. It certainly is a complicated issue, but I think this is the right way to go. NapHit (talk) 21:47, 19 August 2012 (UTC)[reply]
I agree with you. Hopefully if someone objects, we can figure out an easy way to keep everyone happy. Bretonbanquet (talk) 21:52, 19 August 2012 (UTC)[reply]
  • Support. Great work. Sure is one of Wikipedia's best lists. TBrandley 01:52, 20 August 2012 (UTC)[reply]
  • Support. Look nice and ready to me! --Yerevanci (talk) 22:33, 20 August 2012 (UTC)[reply]
  • Support— Good work! Zia Khan 05:42, 22 August 2012 (UTC)[reply]
  • Support. Is excellent. I believe it is ready. TollHRT52 (talk) 13:55, 26 August 2012 (AEST)


Resolved comments from The Rambling Man (talk) 13:31, 23 August 2012 (UTC)[reply]
Comments
  • 1950 season is overlinked in the lead.
  • "or safety net" nets? Not mentioned afterwards....
  • "Twenty-four of the drivers died during a World Championship Grand Prix race weekend, nine during a test session and six during a non-championship Formula One event" adds up to 39, previously you said 49 had died.
  • "Despite there being no fatalities since 1994" then "driver has suffered a fatal accident since 1994" bit repetitive, plus you link the 1994 season on the second occasion, not the first.
  • Miller has a [a] note, while a number of others have a [A} note...
  • Maybe worth noting the first driver, Earl, to be killed, in the lead.
  • Ref. -> Ref(s).
  • Ref 12 needs a pp. Check others.
  • Ref 34, isn't Autosport a work?

The Rambling Man (talk) 11:15, 23 August 2012 (UTC)[reply]

Thanks for the comments TRM, think I've addressed them all. NapHit (talk) 13:29, 23 August 2012 (UTC)[reply]
  • Oppose for now: needs a bit more copyediting:
    • "It was not until the 1960s these were first introduced. Helmets and overalls became mandatory and the FIA assumed responsibility for safety at the circuits.[2] Steps were taken to improve the safety of the Formula One car in the 1970s. The cockpit opening was enlarged allowing the driver to escape quicker in the event of an accident and outside mirrors became mandatory.[" I think these four sentences need to be merged into two, to clearly explain that #2 refers to the 60s, and #4 to the 70s.
done NapHit (talk) 13:47, 24 August 2012 (UTC)[reply]
    • "49 drivers have died..."
You haven't specified your issue with this. NapHit (talk) 13:47, 24 August 2012 (UTC)[reply]
    • "This list includes drivers who have during a FIA World Championship race weekend, and those who have died while driving a Formula One car outside of the World Championship. " this is a bit confusing. you mean the list includes BOTH drivers who died during the weekend and those who died outside of them but driving a F1 car?
Yes, the list contains drivers who died during a Formula One race weekend and those who have died elsewhere while driving a formula one car, the sentence seems clear to me not sure how it could be clearer. NapHit (talk) 13:47, 24 August 2012 (UTC)[reply]
    • "Track marshals and other race attendees, who have died as a result of these accidents are not included in the list. " is there an estimate on how many people died during accidents but were not the drivers?
Don't think so, had a look around, couldn't find any reliable estimates. NapHit (talk) 13:47, 24 August 2012 (UTC)[reply]
    • "(there have been two fatalities outside of World Championship Grands Prix) " perhaps change this into a footnote and clearly explain who are the two
done NapHit (talk) 13:47, 24 August 2012 (UTC)[reply]
    • mention that two drivers died in the 1960 Belgian Grand Prix and 1994 San Marino Grand Prix.
Not sure, i don't what the lead to start reading like a list of facts. NapHit (talk) 13:47, 24 August 2012 (UTC)[reply]
    • mention that '58 is the year with most fatalities (4)
Don't think it's necessary, lead already states fatalities by decade, don't think we need to elaborate further. NapHit (talk) 13:47, 24 August 2012 (UTC)[reply]
    • By circuit needs to include also the number of times the circuit has been used. Fatalities by constructor needs to have columns with how many seasons the constructors were active
Not sure this is necessary, the tables are there to state the number of times fatalities have occurred at the circuit, don't think we need to overload either table with more information. NapHit (talk) 13:47, 24 August 2012 (UTC)[reply]
    • I think there should be an age column also
Again, not sure about this either, not sure its necessary, I think it would be adding too much information to the table. The reader can click the link to the article if they want to know their age. NapHit (talk) 13:47, 24 August 2012 (UTC)[reply]

Nergaal (talk) 00:47, 24 August 2012 (UTC)[reply]

Thanks for the comments Nergaal, I've addressed them all. NapHit (talk) 13:47, 24 August 2012 (UTC)[reply]
You adressed some of them, but mostly discarded them. Nergaal (talk) 23:37, 26 August 2012 (UTC)[reply]
I think discarded is a bit harsh, whether I disagreed with them or not, I addressed them one way or the other. I just don't think there is a need to flood tables and the lead with loads of information. Wikipedia is not a statistics site adding more information to the lead is unnecessary as it adequately summarises the table. Listing more would not make the prose flow. With the tables, I'm not sure an age column is necessary, the reader can click the person's article to find out, it would be information overload, likewise with the other suggestions for the other tables. I know you're comments were well-intentioned I just don't think it would be practical or necessary to include the suggestions I've highlighted. NapHit (talk) 23:50, 26 August 2012 (UTC)[reply]
Resolved comments from Bloom6132 (talk) 14:15, 27 August 2012 (UTC)[reply]
Comments –
  • "as Helmets and overalls" – de-capitalize helmets.
  • "This list includes drivers who have during a FIA World Championship race" – There's a word missing between "have" and "during" (I'm guessing it's "died")

—Bloom6132 (talk) 09:23, 26 August 2012 (UTC)[reply]

Thanks for the comments Bloom, I've addressed them both. NapHit (talk) 14:10, 26 August 2012 (UTC)[reply]
Final comment – the "Notes" section could include a {{refbegin}} and {{refend}} at the start and finish, in order to shrink the text to make it look more like footnotes. I understand you cannot utilize the {{#tag:ref|TEXT|group=lower-alpha}}, due to the fact that Note B encompasses more than one section of the list. —Bloom6132 (talk) 14:36, 26 August 2012 (UTC)[reply]
done NapHit (talk) 17:41, 26 August 2012 (UTC)[reply]
  • Support – meets all 6 criteria. Great work. —Bloom6132 (talk) 03:49, 27 August 2012 (UTC)[reply]

Comments – Don't think I've ever had a list I nominated for delisting come back to FLC before. Interesting occurance, and the sourcing certainly looks much better than it did when the list was at FLRC.

  • Comma after "Track marshals and other race attendees" probably shouldn't be there.
  • The number starting the sentence "49 drivers have died..." would be better off spelled out. I've never thought that numbers starting sentences are a good thing, and I think that is why Nergaal commented on it. Giants2008 (Talk) 23:23, 26 August 2012 (UTC)[reply]
Thanks for the comments Giants, I've addressed them both. NapHit (talk) 23:29, 26 August 2012 (UTC)[reply]

quickie something I missed earlier, the 2002 EuroBOSS Series season (although red) would be a more accurate link than just EuroBOSS Series wouldn't it? Even if you had to create a stub which remarked upon the fact that a driver was killed in an F1 car during the season? The Rambling Man (talk) 14:31, 27 August 2012 (UTC)[reply]

Yep, I agree changed to a redlink. NapHit (talk) 15:18, 27 August 2012 (UTC)[reply]
  • Support I don't agree with many of Nergaal's points in the opposition. I'm very happy indeed with the standard of this list, definitely FL quality. The Rambling Man (talk) 11:40, 28 August 2012 (UTC)[reply]
The above discussion is preserved as an archive. Please do not modify it. No further edits should be made to this page.
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