Wikipedia:Featured list candidates/List of Golden Martín Fierro Award winners/archive1

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The following is an archived discussion of a featured list nomination. Please do not modify it. Subsequent comments should be made on the article's talk page or in Wikipedia talk:Featured list candidates. No further edits should be made to this page.

The list was not promoted by Crisco 1492 23:01, 31 October 2013 [1].

List of Golden Martín Fierro Award winners[edit]

List of Golden Martín Fierro Award winners (edit | talk | history | protect | delete | links | watch | logs | views)

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Nominator(s): Cambalachero (talk) 18:23, 6 September 2013 (UTC)[reply]

I am nominating this for featured list because I think it has a similar quality to other lists of awards recipients, recently approved as featured lists. Cambalachero (talk) 18:23, 6 September 2013 (UTC)[reply]

Resolved comments from  — SoapFan12 (talk, contribs) 00:23, 21 September 2013 (UTC)[reply]
;Comments:
  • The first sentence is missing a source.
  • Add a ″Multiple wins″ since as I can see there are multiple winners (optional).

Overall, great job! Just few minor issues!  — SoapFan12 (talk, contribs) 23:08, 10 September 2013 (UTC)[reply]

I have reused a reference for the first sentence. However, as I pointed in the lead, there are no actual "multiple wins" of the award, so far it has always been given to different recipients. If an award is given to miniseries A, and later to miniseries B, and actor that worked in both ones is not a multiple winner because the award was not given to him but to each miniseries. I think it is something worth mentioning, but not justified to include in a new table. Cambalachero (talk) 23:47, 20 September 2013 (UTC
  • Support – Just add the something worth mentioning. However, overall great job on meeting the criteria! Do not see further problems.  — SoapFan12 (talk, contribs) 00:23, 21 September 2013 (UTC)[reply]
  • Support – Although I would maybe suggest using a photo of one of the winners with a caption. Other than that it looks fine.
---Birdienest81 (talk) 17:06, 23 September 2013 (UTC)[reply]
  • Comments, leaning Oppose
  • Although the organization that awards has Argentina in the name, you never actually say that the award is for shows/people in Argentina
  • "is given to honor an individual with an outstanding trajectory" - a trajectory in what? Being shot out of a cannon?
  • "It was first awarded at the Martín Fierro Awards ceremony for 1991, held in 1992 and is" - grammatically suspect; perhaps "It was first awarded... in 1992 for works from 1991.", and stick the description of what the award is for in a sentence by itself beforehand.
  • In the infobox you say it was first awarded in 1991, but it was actually first awarded in 1992, for contributions in 1991.
  • "APTRA described the rationale as "the best among the best"" - the rationale for what? Maybe "According to the APTRA, the purpose of the award is to honor "the best among the best"".
  • "No recipient received the award twice" - wrong tense
  • "Nicolás Repetto, TV host of Fax, received a personal one in the 1999 ceremony" - but he didn't, he got it in the 2000 ceremony.
  • Fax is a redirect link everywhere you use it.
  • The sorting is off for the winners column- should sort people by their last name, not first name - see the sortname template
  • Not sure for Spanish, but for English "The Thirteen" would sort under Thirteen, not The, so I think El Trece should sort under Trece, not El.
  • The references column shouldn't be sortable.
  • Given its small size and connection to these awards, I feel that the Platinum awards should also be on this page, not on a separate one.
  • Since this is just one category of the Fierro awards, I would expect at least a sentence or two saying what the Martín Fierro Awards are, and mentioning that there are other categories. The lead is making it sound like this is the only award given at the ceremony by APTRA, and that's not true at all.

--PresN 17:56, 25 September 2013 (UTC)[reply]

All done Cambalachero (talk) 18:54, 29 September 2013 (UTC)[reply]
  • As promised, I will take a look at this list today. — ΛΧΣ21 17:27, 6 October 2013 (UTC)[reply]
    • I have taken a look at the list and apart from TRM's comments below, nothing seems to be in the way of its promotion. I will go ahead and support taking Rambling's comments as resolved. — ΛΧΣ21 03:43, 23 October 2013 (UTC)[reply]

Strong oppose and really disappointed to see supports from those above. From a quick look:

  • Is it "Golden Martín Fierro award" or "Golden Martín Fierro Award"?
  • Why isn't Martín Fierro Awards linked in the lead?
  • What is an "outstanding trajectory"? A missile may have this. I'm not sure about a human.
  • "described the rationale as" no, the rationale was, not described as. Needs a copyedit.
  • "but there was no Platinum award for the 2013 ceremony" why not?
  • What's a "telenovela"?
  • "and the telenovela Graduados is the latest one, for the 2012 productions" ->"and, as of 2013, the telenovela Graduados is the most recent."
  • "but Nicolás Repetto, TV host" why do you need TV here?
  • "No recipient received" -> "Nobody has received"
  • "lead actors of different works of fiction" is this important?
  • "The ceremonies have no nominees for the Golden award, which is announced at the end, once all the regular awards have been received" needs copyedit work.
  • References col could just be Ref and should be centrally aligned.
  • Table doesn't meet WP:ACCESS requirements for row and col scopes.
  • "Production or person" column doesn't sort correctly.
  • "Susana Giménez " has a diacritic.
  • Any English language sources?

The Rambling Man (talk) 16:52, 7 October 2013 (UTC)[reply]

Most of them done, but I skip several ones. Martín Fierro Awards is linked in the lead. Nobody ever said why there was no platinum award this year, but neither it was mentioned to be cancelled; the only info available is that there wasn't such award, and so says here. A Telenovela is a television genre, perhaps you are not familiar with it because it's a Latin American thing. Nicolás Repetto is describd as a TV host because the awards are not only for TV. Similarily, I use "no recipient" instead of "nobody" because the award can be for either a person or a production. "Ref" may be acceptable wiki slang, but article content should have actual words. The "Production or person" does sort correctly: have in mind that people are sorted by their last name. And yes, Susana Giménez and several others have diacritics, their names are written that way. Cambalachero (talk) 22:40, 7 October 2013 (UTC)[reply]
You should link the Awards on the first instance. The point of me asking what a Telenovela is means that you should link it, it's a term many English speakers will not be familiar with. "No recipient received" is repetitive prose and should be adjusted. If Gimenez has a diacritic, make sure it's used every time. Please implement MOS:DTT. The Rambling Man (talk) 07:09, 8 October 2013 (UTC)[reply]
I have linked all the genres, but which is the problem with DTT? The tables have captions, there are no headers inside the tables, they don't use images or color, there are no nested tables... Cambalachero (talk) 18:53, 8 October 2013 (UTC)[reply]
Row and col scopes are required. The Rambling Man (talk) 06:22, 9 October 2013 (UTC)[reply]
Done Cambalachero (talk) 14:34, 10 October 2013 (UTC)[reply]
Telenovela still not linked, "Networks with most awards" table is incorrect, image captions which are complete sentences need a full stop, what's a "Rotating cast"? And as this is English Wikipedia, why not use some English language sources, like Reuters, Buenos Aires Herald etc.... The Rambling Man (talk) 07:12, 24 October 2013 (UTC)[reply]
Telenovela is already linked at the most natural place, the "genre or occupation" field. A "rotating cast" means that there was no steady cast, each episode was made with a new cast; neither the peer review nor the previous reviews saw a problem with it. See here, "Rotate" means "to replace (a person, troops, etc.) by another or others, usually according to a schedule or plan". Apply that meaning to a cast, and you get the idea. As for sources, let me quote Wikipedia:Verifiability#Non-English sources: "Citations to non-English sources are allowed. However, because this is the English-language Wikipedia, English-language sources are preferred over non-English ones, whenever English sources of equal quality and relevance are available" (bolded parts by me). The mere use of non-English sources is not in itself a problem, and most sources come from La Nación, which is a newspaper of record. As far as I know, Reuters and Buenos Aires Herald are not newspapers of record; I don't think I should switch to a lower-quality source only because of the language. Do you have any concern about the actual content of the sources? Cambalachero (talk) 12:56, 24 October 2013 (UTC)[reply]
Telenovela should be linked in the lead so non-Spanish TV fans understand what it means. I've never heard of a "rotating cast", I have no comment on other reviews. You don't believe Reuters to be of record? How odd. As for the existing sources, I couldn't comment as I don't speak Spanish well enough. You do vary the way you present "La Nación" though, sometimes italics, sometimes not. I have no idea of the reliability of a source simply called "Página", nor "Clarín" nor "Los Andes". The Rambling Man (talk) 14:27, 24 October 2013 (UTC)[reply]
This discussion seems a bit pointless. None of the edits I make seem to suit you well, each time I fix something you simply ignore the fixes and made up something else to continue opposing. The "on it goes" edit summary seems to confirm the hostile attitude. If I answer about the newspapers of records, then "on and on it will go", and I'm not interested in never-ending discussions Cambalachero (talk) 16:55, 24 October 2013 (UTC)[reply]
Well, I'm incredibly disappointed by the supports that seemed to fly in with the list being in such a poor state. It needed (and perhaps still needs) a serious copyedit from a native English speaker. It needs to address concerns over terms that aren't common to English speakers. It needs to address the fact that few of the sources are commonly known to English speakers. Sorry if you consider my comments to be "never-ending discussions". Perhaps FLC isn't the right place for you if you don't want to receive critiques of "your" work. The Rambling Man (talk) 19:07, 24 October 2013 (UTC)[reply]

Comments, leaning Oppose This needs a damned good copy edit to get it into shape

  • "an Argentine individual" -> an Argentinian
  • I'm not sure I agree with the essay, especially given that the Oxford English Dictionary list both "Argentine" and "Argentinian" as being a native or inhabitant of Argentina. "an Argentine individual" is an inelegantly phrased piece of writing and jars.
  • "unrelated to the regular ones, distributed in categories": -> which are distributed…
  • "telenovela". Never heard of this before: needs either an explanation, a wikilink, or a link to the wiktionary
  • "Graduados": needs to be italicised
  • "No recipient received the award twice": -> No recipient has received
  • "TV host of Fax": doesn't need the "TV"
  • "received a personal one in the ceremony for works from 1999": needs re-working to flow better
  • Not sure why we need the list of winners in the lead
  • "an outstanding trajectory": a missile or career may have one of these: people do not.
  • "References" can be "Refs", or {{Tooltip|Refs.|Reference}}, if you want to be flash
  • Sorting on the table doesn't work properly: it should sort on the surname of the first listed person
  • You need to be consistent on listing format: "Carla Peterson and Luciano Castro" and "Enrique Macaya Márquez, Marcelo Araujo" are different.

May be best if you ask a third party for a good copy edit on this. - SchroCat (talk) 09:50, 25 October 2013 (UTC)[reply]

    • Done, with a few exceptions: For the demonym, see WP:NOTARGENTINIAN. If I make reference to Repetto simply as a "host", I'm sure I will be frowned upon the multiple possible meanings of the word: TV host, radio host, someone with visitors at home, a landlord, a victim of a parasite... The list of selected winners in the lead simply follows the standard I have seen in similar lists promoted recently. The sorting of the table has been mentioned before, and I have already said that it works: have in mind that it is a table with both names of people and TV programs (and, if this causes the confusion, "Santo" is indeed the name and "Biasatti" the surname, not the other way, despite the existence of other people with "Santo" or "Santos" as a surname). For references, my preferred style is to use actual words. Cambalachero (talk) 13:15, 25 October 2013 (UTC)[reply]
  • Re. Repetto: not really: you've already said Fax is a television programme, so listing him as "host" makes perfect sense, especially in a list abaout a television award. "TV host of Fax" is just bad English and suggests that there are other formats of Fax - a radio version and a stage version, for example.
  • I am confused by the sorting in the "Starring" column and don't know why you won't sort on the surname, which is the common practice at FLC
  • "Refs" is entirely valid - the Oxford English Dictionary both use the term throughout and list it as an acceptable term
  • One more: 1997 Tinelli's occupation needs to be formatted in the same way as the other. - SchroCat (talk) 13:55, 25 October 2013 (UTC)[reply]
The above discussion is preserved as an archive. Please do not modify it. No further edits should be made to this page.
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