Wikipedia:Featured list candidates/List of Luton Town F.C. statistics and records/archive1

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The following is an archived discussion of a featured list nomination. Please do not modify it. Subsequent comments should be made on the article's talk page or in Wikipedia talk:Featured list candidates. No further edits should be made to this page.

The list was promoted by Matthewedwards 15:25, 30 June 2009 [1].

List of Luton Town F.C. statistics and records[edit]

Nominator(s): Cliftonian (Talk • Contibs) 17:05, 18 June 2009 (UTC)[reply]
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I am nominating this for featured list because I believe it meets the criteria. Cliftonian (Talk • Contibs) 17:05, 18 June 2009 (UTC)[reply]

Comments

  • You use both "Luton Town have" and "Luton Town has" in the lead. Which one should be used?
Have. Cliftonian (Talk • Contibs) 10:37, 22 June 2009 (UTC)[reply]
  • In "Managerial records", two parentheses are used directly after each other in the David Pleat sentence.
OK. Cliftonian (Talk • Contibs) 10:37, 22 June 2009 (UTC)[reply]
  • Periods should be used after full sentences in image captions such as "Curtis Davies was transferred from Luton Town to West Bromwich Albion for £3,000,000 on 31 August 2005"
OK. Cliftonian (Talk • Contibs) 10:37, 22 June 2009 (UTC)[reply]
  • There seems to be a problem with footnote C.
OK. Cliftonian (Talk • Contibs) 10:37, 22 June 2009 (UTC)[reply]
  • A date in reference 26 needs to be unlinked.
OK. Cliftonian (Talk • Contibs) 10:37, 22 June 2009 (UTC)[reply]

TheLeftorium 17:39, 18 June 2009 (UTC)[reply]

Resolved comments from Truco

Weak Oppose

General
  • Fix the dead external link found in ref 32; dab links check out fine.
OK. Cliftonian (Talk • Contibs) 10:37, 22 June 2009 (UTC)[reply]
Lead
  • In addition to Theleftorium's comments...
  • 'Luton have played at all professional levels of English football, and will play in the fifth tier (the Conference National) for the first time during the 2009–10 season. Luton Town has competed in the Football League for 92 seasons – from 1897 to 1900, and then again from 1920 to 2009.' -- 1)Since its a pronoun, the 'the' in The Football Club should be capitalized. 2)The dash should be an emdash
I don't understand the first comment... the second is a difference between AmE and BrE Cliftonian (Talk • Contibs) 10:37, 22 June 2009 (UTC)[reply]
As in, shouldn't it be "The Football League" as opposed to "the Football League"?--Truco 503 00:29, 25 June 2009 (UTC)[reply]
Oh, ok. You had a typo there. Cliftonian (Talk • Contibs) 06:16, 25 June 2009 (UTC)[reply]
  • Can the list not be expanded a bit to summarize their records, i.e. a brief summary of how bad/good they have done, or if they have gone to any finals, won championships, etc.
See List of Luton Town F.C. seasons. Cliftonian (Talk • Contibs) 10:37, 22 June 2009 (UTC)[reply]
That's no reason not to have a brief summary in the prose.--Truco 503 00:29, 25 June 2009 (UTC)[reply]
There is one in the Honours and achievements section, isn't there? Cliftonian (Talk • Contibs) 06:16, 25 June 2009 (UTC)[reply]
List
  • There is an inconsistency with the references and their positions, they should all either be on the name of the cup or all positioned after the years.
OK. Cliftonian (Talk • Contibs) 10:37, 22 June 2009 (UTC)[reply]
Award winners
  • Why are they bolded? No need for it.
OK. Cliftonian (Talk • Contibs) 10:37, 22 June 2009 (UTC)[reply]
  • Those are not brackets, they are parenthesis.
OK. Cliftonian (Talk • Contibs) 10:37, 22 June 2009 (UTC)[reply]
  • This is a bit confusing 'Competitive, professional matches only, appearances including substitutes appear in brackets.' -- I don't really understand, can it be reworded a bit.
OK. Cliftonian (Talk • Contibs) 10:37, 22 June 2009 (UTC)[reply]
Images
  • 'Steve Howard was the club's top goalscorer for five seasons in a row – 2001–02 to 2005–06' --> Steve Howard was the club's top goalscorer for five consecutive seasons—2001–02 to 2005–06.
OK. Cliftonian (Talk • Contibs) 10:37, 22 June 2009 (UTC)[reply]
  • 'Curtis Davies was transferred from Luton Town to West Bromwich Albion for £3,000,000 on 31 August 2005' -- Needs a period
OK. Cliftonian (Talk • Contibs) 10:37, 22 June 2009 (UTC)[reply]
  • 'Joe Kinnear, an Irishman, is the only Luton Town manager to have come from outside the United Kingdom' -- Remove the links to the countries, per WP:OVERLINK
OK. Cliftonian (Talk • Contibs) 10:37, 22 June 2009 (UTC)[reply]
Transfers
  • Why arent the tables sortable?
  • The currency could use a link.
  • No need for the bold
OK to all. Cliftonian (Talk • Contibs) 10:37, 22 June 2009 (UTC)[reply]
European statistics
  • 'Luton Town have also qualified for the UEFA Cup, as winners of the Football League Cup in 1987–88; however they were unable to compete due to the ban of English clubs from European competitions following the Heysel Stadium Disaster.' -- Comma after however
OK Cliftonian (Talk • Contibs) 10:37, 22 June 2009 (UTC)[reply]
  • In the table, it would help to have the name or abbr. of the country next to the flag in the country column.
OK Cliftonian (Talk • Contibs) 10:37, 22 June 2009 (UTC)[reply]
Footnotes
  • Error with the formatting of note C.
OK Cliftonian (Talk • Contibs) 10:37, 22 June 2009 (UTC)[reply]
  • 'Joe Kinnear was the club's first manager from outside the United Kingdom to manage the club in a match – Terry Mancini, another Irishman, had a spell as the club's caretaker manager (3–11 January 1990) but did not manage the club in a match.' -- 1)Remove the link to the UK 2)Use a emdash instead of a endash
OK Cliftonian (Talk • Contibs) 10:37, 22 June 2009 (UTC)[reply]
  • 'The lowest total not including point deductions is 37, in 1990-91.' -- Comma after 'total' and after 'deductions'
OK Cliftonian (Talk • Contibs) 10:37, 22 June 2009 (UTC)[reply]
  • There is no need to link Luton Town so many times, or other terms that have been linked previously. Use only 1 link.
OK Cliftonian (Talk • Contibs) 10:37, 22 June 2009 (UTC)[reply]
References
  • For the Soccerbase refs, the work is from Soccerbase but the publisher is either the Racing Post or the copyright company located at the bottom of the page.
OK, cheers Cliftonian (Talk • Contibs) 10:37, 22 June 2009 (UTC) --Truco 503 23:30, 18 June 2009 (UTC)[reply]
  • Weak Support -- The lead still needs expansion (brief summary of records) but otherwise Previous issues resolved/clarified; list meets WP:WIAFL.--Truco 503 15:53, 26 June 2009 (UTC)[reply]

Support, all issues resolved. Dabomb87 (talk) 16:10, 30 June 2009 (UTC)[reply]

Resolved issues, Dabomb87 (talk)
Comments from Dabomb87 (talk · contribs)
  • No need to link England.
  • "and then again from 1920 to 2009."
  • There seems to be little summary of the list itself. Expansion would be nice.
  • You need to use symbols (e.g. * ^ #) in addition to color in the tables. In addition, you need a key for the flags.
  • Don't use bold unless absolutely necessary per MOS:BOLD.
  • Explain the equal signs, even if their meaning is obvious. Dabomb87 (talk) 21:58, 22 June 2009 (UTC)[reply]

Sources look good. Dabomb87 (talk) 21:58, 22 June 2009 (UTC)[reply]

OK, all sorted. Cliftonian (Talk • Contibs) 06:44, 23 June 2009 (UTC)[reply]
Resolved comments from The Rambling Man (talk) 10:58, 25 June 2009 (UTC)[reply]
*WP:MOSFLAG suggests that the name of the country should appear next to the flag for accessibility. It also says you don't have to repeat it. I note you've got it in the key at the top but since the icons are so very similar, perhaps you'd consider putting the nation name into the table as well.
  • "appear in brackets" those are parentheses actually. Check others.
  • "appearances including substitutes appear in brackets" and in italics.
  • Transfer fees table - Nat doesn't sort for me.
  • Find a suitable link for "caps" for the first time you use it.
  • Be consistent with ordering of references and notes - you have [27][E] and [F][45].
  • Move note [G] after comma.
  • "Record by opposition nationality" table goes mad when sorted because of the rowspan. Look at Rumford Prize for a way round this.
  • Suddenly link Luton in [G]. Why?
  • Same thing re:Collings book refs per other two FLCs. Same for Hayes and Bailey.
  • What makes englandfootballonline, statto.com and englandstats WP:RS? Soccerbase and the FA website may cover what these refs are citing?
  • You link BBC as a publisher but not FIFA?

The Rambling Man (talk) 09:42, 25 June 2009 (UTC)[reply]

OK, all sorted now. On the Refs, Statto's data comes from Tony Brown, whose Soccerdata company published "The Definitive Luton Town F.C." along with more than 100 similar books. I'd say that his data's reliable, but if you have a problem with it I'll look elsewhere. England Football Online and England Stats can be confirmed as reliable here and here. Cliftonian (Talk • Contibs) 10:30, 25 June 2009 (UTC)[reply]
  • Note G refers to club simply as Luton, I think this is the only place it happens.
  • Why is Wash's name repeated in ref 10? Is he his own publisher or something?
  • Ref 70, work=Time (magazine) isn't it?

The Rambling Man (talk) 10:43, 25 June 2009 (UTC)[reply]

Wash (Luton Town F.C.'s official historian) published the book himself in 2008. I'll take the "publisher" name off. I've fixed the note G and the Time thing. Cliftonian (Talk • Contibs) 10:48, 25 June 2009 (UTC)[reply]
Resolved comments from Struway2 (talk) 08:06, 26 June 2009 (UTC)[reply]
  • Lead. Catalogue is spelt with a "ue" in BritEng.
  • Honours and achievements. Are you sure Luton have won "several major honours in English football"? Don't think our Villa-supporting colleague who used to review these lists would have let me claim 1 League Cup, 4 Second Divisions, 1 Third and 2 Football League Trophies as "several major honours", and yours are on a similar level :-)
  • Reference should come after any punctuation, not before their comma.
  • Is there any reason for referencing each honour individually to various pages from Collings or FCHD or one BBC match report, rather than just referencing the whole section to FCHD?
  • Flags. Need accompanying with country names, per MOS:ICON#Accompany with country names.
  • Images. Per MOS:IMAGES, use the thumb parameter default, i.e. don't specify a width, unless there's good reason not to. At 1024x768 screen resolution, I'm seeing lots of white space where images push tables out of their way.
  • Don't think decorating a list is enough to justify fair-use on the Morton and Turner images. They're not "historically significant photo[s] of a famous individual", they're just photos.
  • Top goalscorers. Number column doesn't sort properly (if the 6= cell is at the top, it isn't recognised as numeric, so the column sorts as alpha rather than numeric).
  • Transfers. Don't really see the point of making a five-line table sortable. Doesn't do any harm, obviously, but for information, if you've got any more lists to come, the criteria say "includes, where helpful, ... table sort facilities" (my highlighting), they don't require all tables to be sortable.
  • International. First capped (Hawkes) and first int'l goalscorer (Payne). Sources don't verify facts.
  • First int'l goalscorer. International has a spurious capital I.
  • Linking England 3 times in 4 lines is probably twice too many (WP:OVERLINK#Link density).
  • Club records. Be consistent about whether you're using Second Division or Division Two format.
  • Again, once per section is enough for linking xxx Division.
  • Record defeats. Wouldn't have been Leicester City in 1899.
  • European statistics. The words might read better if you merged the never progressing past the group stage bit into the AngloIt sentence, along the lines of "As of 2009, the only European competition the club have taken part in is the Anglo-Italian Cup, but they never progressed past the group stage.", so you finish with what they have taken part in before starting to talk about them not being able to enter the UEFA cup.
  • Suggest you let the tables have a bit more width, so the columns don't wrap.
  • Footnotes. Note C needs another backlink. Though you could always get round the problem by putting notes which attach to column headings of small tables immediately below the table they attach to, without any complex mechanisms, as per HERE.
  • Note G. Per WP:MOSNUM#Numbers as figures or words, comparable quantities should be all words or all numbers, so "thirty" should be written 30.
  • References. #28 (Barnett) is missing a publisher.
  • Ref #70 (Time) needs a publication date.
  • Ref #77 (Guardian Weekly) needs a letter p before the page number, for consistency. cheers, Struway2 (talk) 15:09, 25 June 2009 (UTC)[reply]
All sorted except the "Reference should come after any punctuation, not before their comma." Not before their comma? I can't see any references done incorrectly – can you be more specific? Cliftonian (Talk • Contibs) 15:47, 25 June 2009 (UTC)[reply]
That's because I fixed them :) Dabomb87 (talk) 15:53, 25 June 2009 (UTC)[reply]
They seek him here, they seek him there… them coppers seek 'im everywhere… is he in heaven, or is he in hell? That damned … elusive … Dabomb87. Cliftonian (Talk • Contibs) 15:55, 25 June 2009 (UTC)[reply]
They'd have gone anyway, when you changed the honours section to just use the one reference. cheers, Struway2 (talk) 15:57, 25 June 2009 (UTC)[reply]

I've capped the resolved ones, which leaves these.

  • Flags. Need accompanying with country names, per MOS:ICON#Accompany with country names.
  • Top goalscorers. Number column doesn't sort properly (if the 6= cell is at the top, it isn't recognised as numeric, so the column sorts as alpha rather than numeric).
I fixed that by using {{nts}} and put the equals signs back, please take them back out if you don't want them.
  • Club records. Be consistent about whether you're using Second Division or Division Two format.
  • Again, once per section is enough for linking xxx Division.
  • Europe. Suggest you let the tables have a bit more width, so the columns don't wrap. To explain what I'm seeing at 1024x768 resolution, in the main table, dates are wrapping to 3 lines, flags are breaking from their country, but there's 4cm of unused white space to the right of the table.
  • Note I also needs a source for Luton Town qualifying for the UEFA Cup but not being able to enter, which I should have made clear. cheers, Struway2 (talk) 17:16, 25 June 2009 (UTC)[reply]
OK, all done now. :) Cliftonian (Talk • Contibs) 06:49, 26 June 2009 (UTC)[reply]
  • Support seems to meet the criteria now. One slight omission: please could you add a sentence at the end of the lead, or anywhere else suitable, which says something like "All records are correct as at the end of the 2008-09 season", or as at today's date, or whatever the case is. cheers, Struway2 (talk) 11:32, 27 June 2009 (UTC)[reply]

Comments –

  • The Robert Hawkes photo has a problem with the public domain tag. It claims "life of author plus 70 years", but the given author is the nominator. Given his recent activity at FAC and FLC, I'm confident that he's still alive. :-) If the author can't be found, it's no problem because it was clearly published in 1909. However, the tag may need switching.
  • Spell out some abbreviations in the references—namely FIFA and RSSSF.
  • Remove all caps from reference 65.
  • American people is a disambiguation link. The article intended to be linked is apparently at People of the United States.
  • Several Statto links are showing up as dead. Giants2008 (17-14) 21:25, 28 June 2009 (UTC)[reply]
All fixed – the Statto links were never broken, if you use them they go through fine. – Cliftonianthe orangey bit 04:36, 29 June 2009 (UTC)[reply]

CommentsSupport from Hassocks5489

Resolved comments from Hassocks5489
Looks good again. Just some minor style points and one small error (the "Record defeat"):
  • Might be worth pointing out in the lead that the Conference National is a non-league division. (It's suggested but not explicitly mentioned.)
  • Try to reword "...record goalscorer, scoring 276 goals..." and "...international caps gained as a Luton Town player, having made 58 appearances..." to avoid the "noun + ing" construction.
  • The sentence "The first major final reached was the FA Cup Final in 1958–59, and the first major cup victory was the Football League Cup win in 1987–88." includes use of the passive voice; perhaps "Luton Town's first major final was the FA Cup Final in 1958–59, and their first major cup victory was the Football League Cup win in 1987–88." (note "the" → "their" in the second clause if you do that.)
  • For consistency: because you used "tier" in the lead to describe the levels of the football pyramid, use the term again (instead of "level") in the "The Football League" paragraph.
  • There is also inconsistency in the use of footnotes after jointly-held positions in the tables: "Top goalscorers" has note [D] accompanying the 6=, whereas "Record transfer fees received" has no note next to the 1=.
  • Managerial records: "...between June 1947 to October 1958" → "...between June 1947 and October 1958", or for consistency with the others, "...from June 1947 to October 1958".
  • "Record defeat: Small Heath 0–9 Luton Town". Should be "9–0", I presume.
  • "FA Cup sixth Round Replay": capitalisation looks inconsistent. Not sure whether "Sixth Round" or "sixth round" is better, though. Hassocks5489 (tickets please!) 11:51, 29 June 2009 (UTC)[reply]
Some good spots there. Thanks fella. – Cliftonianthe orangey bit 12:02, 29 June 2009 (UTC)[reply]
Thanks for the quick turnaround. The passive voice of "The first major final reached..." is still bothering me; and in the new sentence in the lead, "outside of" should be "outside"; but all the above is resolved apart from those. Hassocks5489 (tickets please!) 21:51, 29 June 2009 (UTC)[reply]
Better? – Cliftonianthe orangey bit 04:42, 30 June 2009 (UTC)[reply]

Supporting as above; all of mine dealt with. Good stuff. Hassocks5489 (tickets please!) 11:35, 30 June 2009 (UTC)[reply]

The above discussion is preserved as an archive. Please do not modify it. No further edits should be made to this page.
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