Wikipedia:Featured list candidates/List of Real Madrid C.F. seasons/archive1

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The following is an archived discussion of a featured list nomination. Please do not modify it. Subsequent comments should be made on the article's talk page or in Wikipedia talk:Featured list candidates. No further edits should be made to this page.

The list was promoted by Giants2008 21:12, 21 October 2011 [1].

List of Real Madrid C.F. seasons[edit]

List of Real Madrid C.F. seasons (edit | talk | history | protect | delete | links | watch | logs | views)

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Nominator(s): AdrianRO talk 15:24, 2 September 2011 (UTC)[reply]

I am nominating this for featured list because I think it respects the criteria needed for promotion. AdrianRO talk 15:24, 2 September 2011 (UTC)[reply]

Resolved comments from NapHit (talk) 22:36, 25 September 2011 (UTC)[reply]
Comments
  • "Spain's first truly national league" truly is redundant remove it
  • "Real Madrid enjoyed a successful start" enjoyed isn't particularly encyclopedic I would change it to had
  • "Real Madrid enjoyed a successful start in La Liga, finishing second in the competition's first season." I would move this to after the bit about the copa del rey
  • "In the 1947-48 season" you need to use an en dash instead of a hyphen and is there no link to an article?
  • "Real Madrid had finished" remove had its not needed
  • "Real Madrid went on to win" this could be shortened to "Real Madrid won"
  • "club in terms of domestic titles is the 1960s" its past tense so it should be was
  • "managed to win" again won would be better
  • "having achieved this performance" change to which it has done twice
  • the 1955-56 link needs an en dash
  • "being also the first ever winners of this tournament" change to and were the first winners of the competition
  • "It also managed to win the first five editions of the European Cup, and as of today it is the most successful team of the competition, with nine titles (the last of them being won in 2002)" sentence doesn't read well change to Real Madrid won the European Cup five years in succession since its inception, it won the competition a further four times, the last of which was in 2002. Its nine victories is the record number of victories by any club.
  • The links to the seasons redirect to the current page this needs fixing
    • Please be explicit. I don't know what you mean here.AdrianRO talk 07:45, 3 September 2011 (UTC)[reply]
Basically the links to any seasons articles should have the years at the start not at the end like they currently are, as at the moment they don't link directly to the page. NapHit (talk) 12:58, 3 September 2011 (UTC)[reply]
Done.AdrianRO talk 15:31, 3 September 2011 (UTC)[reply]
Sorry, but this has not been done, the La Liga links still have the years the wrong way round. The champions league ones need en dashes instead of dashes between the years. NapHit (talk) 18:06, 13 September 2011 (UTC)[reply]
Done. AdrianRO talk 09:51, 14 September 2011 (UTC)[reply]
  • Real Madrid is the team with more European trophies than any other football team (12). That defenitely needs referencing as this list suggests otherwise
  • Generally numbers over 10 need to be indicated in figures
  • The Super Cup and Intercontinental Cup need linking in the lead

That's alot of comments to deal with and that's just the lead, the table also needs alot of work to get it up to scratch. Here's my comments for the table

  • Firstly I would merge the two tables and just put dashes in the areas that are not affected by the early regional championships
  • The referencing is a major problem for me is there not a book that covers the majority of Real's history which can be used.
  • The top scorer columns are unreferenced as far as I can see
  • You don't need the RSSSF refs for every UEFA competition is there not a ref that covers Real's participation in competitions season by season?
  • The table fails WP:ACCESS see MOS:DTT for more info
  • Using Template:Football season start would solve the pint mentioned above and make the table sortable which is a must in my opinion
    • Any idea how to make it sortable without using this template? Cause using this template means starting out from zero with the table, and that's hard job to do. And, as you can see, I am for a while the only one editing this article. AdrianRO talk 08:02, 12 September 2011 (UTC)[reply]
If I were you I'd just use the template its easier, look at the Watford list and the Liverpool one to see how. Yes its a lot but all your doing essentially is translating the information over so it won't take that long. NapHit (talk) 18:02, 13 September 2011 (UTC)[reply]
  • If your using colours there needs to be a symbol used alongside as well
    • C and 1st are perfectly readable for the colourblind. Sandman888 (talk) 23:13, 6 September 2011 (UTC)[reply]
  • Points total should not be bolded
  • The first general ref should be removed it inly plots league position and doesn't provide any other information so its usually useless as a general ref
Done. AdrianRO talk 15:35, 3 September 2011 (UTC)[reply]

As a guide I would look at List of Watford F.C. seasons and List of Liverpool F.C. seasons for help on the table which is a major problem at the moment. The lead is not great either but it can be fixed fairly easily. As there are a number of problems I'm going to oppose for now but if the problems are cleared up I'll be happy to revise that. Cheers NapHit (talk) 23:39, 2 September 2011 (UTC)[reply]

The Barcelona list was promoted a while ago and since then guidelines have moved on, as lists such as this now use sortable tables then future lists that are up for candidacy must follow suit. Its WP:POINT to say this list is featured list while mine is exactly the same. The fact is it was promoted a whil ago and the guidelines have moved on, there is nothing more to it. There was an issue about this sort of thing fairly recently see here where you can see the debate about the tables. NapHit (talk) 12:58, 3 September 2011 (UTC)[reply]

Nearly there a few more comments:

  • The position column should be after the points column, this is standard practice in seasons lists in wikipedia, it looks weird having that column first, it should come after the results to represent how the season progressed
  • You need to use † instead of using † per WP:ACCESS
  • Also move the symbols next to the letter and superscript, an example would be: W*
    • Are you sure about this? Maybe just the symbol needs to be superscript, not together with the "W". AdrianRO talk 13:59, 26 September 2011 (UTC)[reply]
  • You use C and F to represent champions and Finalists I would go for W and RU to instead. F makes it ambiguous in my opinion and as use Runner-up in the Key you should use the abbreviation, and as most lists concerning trophies refer to them as winner, I think you should use this.

NapHit (talk) 22:36, 25 September 2011 (UTC)[reply]

  • Support I feel the list now meets the criteria after the nominator put in some great work to get it there, great work. NapHit (talk) 19:50, 2 October 2011 (UTC)[reply]
comment sortability is not as clear cut as naphit make it out to be. E.g. Wikipedia:Featured_list_candidates/List_of_Watford_F.C._seasons/archive1 in the FLC of watford it was very much a debated point. Also naphit you misquote wp:point. wp:point wd be nominating the list of fcb seasons to flrc due to sore feelings after getting this rm list rejected. wp:point is not otherstuffexists. Also the reason the santos list failed seems more to be about the nominator being dishonest than anything else. just 2 pennies. Sandman888 (talk) 23:07, 6 September 2011 (UTC)[reply]
I think the debate at the Santos FLC makes it clear that sortability is clear cut. Its been proven that it is beneficial and I would like to see it implemented, as it is useful to the reader. NapHit (talk) 16:33, 13 September 2011 (UTC)[reply]
Resolved comments from The Rambling Man (talk) 17:32, 12 September 2011 (UTC)[reply]
Oppose lead only, copyedit required.
  • Say "association" football club just to be sure to our US/Aus friends etc.
  • "when it entered the semi-final" what? You mean it played that match, right? And against whom? And what happened?
  • "Initially Real Madrid .." so after playing someone with some unknown result in the Copa del Rey, the club started playing local clubs etc?

Confused. Perhaps you need to put that cup appearance into context.

  • "In the period from 1902 to 1929" don't need "In the period".
  • "Real Madrid had a successful start in La Liga, finishing second in the competition's first season. The club did not win the league until 1932." reads poorly to me. Merge this and remove the feeling that they should have won it sooner (i.e. you say, they didn't win it until..., big deal... why should they have?)
  • "which it has done twice " -> " a feat which it has achieved on two occasions..."
  • "in European competition during the 1954–55 season" what season? European season? Spanish season?
  • "when they played in the Latin Cup. It won" plural/singular reference to Real Madrid. Be consistent.
  • "It won its first European trophy, the European Cup, during the 1955–56 season, and were the first winners of the competition." horrendous. Perhaps something like "Real Madrid won their first European title, and the inaugural European Cup, during the...".
  • "Real Madrid won the European Cup five years in succession since its inception, it won the competition a further four times, the last of which was in 2002. " do you mean they won the first five editions of the European Cup? this English is a little difficult for me.
  • " Its nine victories is the record number of victories by any club" repetitive - victories, victories.
  • "first double of league championship and Cup in 1962." you link La Liga for 1962 but no link for "Cup"...
    • Eliminated the La Liga link because the 1962 Cup link redirects nowhere. AdrianRO talk 05:54, 12 September 2011 (UTC)[reply]
  • "are the second most successful club in UEFA competitions winning 15.[5]" - ref 5 doesn't back up the claim of second most successful club as far as I can see.
    • The 15 trophies are depicted in the right of the page, where it says "Trophy cabinet". AdrianRO talk 05:54, 12 September 2011 (UTC)[reply]

Fix/copyedit lead, and I may be tempted back to review the remaining part of the article. The Rambling Man (talk) 18:47, 11 September 2011 (UTC)[reply]

Resolved comments from Giants2008 (27 and counting) 23:06, 20 September 2011 (UTC)[reply]
Comments –
  • "when it lost with 3-1 the semi-final of the Campeonato de Copa de S.M. Alfonso XIII against FC Barcelona." First part of this sounds better as "when it lost 3–1 in the semi-final...". Don't forget that the score needs an en dash, like the one I put in here.
  • No need for a second FC Barcelona link in the first paragraph.
  • Also don't need two European Cup links in the lead.
  • "It won its first double of league championship and Cup in 1962." The Cup is the Copa del Rey, correct? Maybe make that word "Copa" in the sentence to make it clearer. Otherwise you could be referring to the European Cup.
  • "Real Madrid is the second most successful club in UEFA competitions winning 15." Comma needed before "winning".
  • The licensing of the lead image is rather suspect. It says it's the uploader's own work, but is from 1905. It's awfully convenient for them to have a 100-year-old photo lying around. Also, the license depends on the author having been dead for 70 years, but the author isn't listed here.
  • Seasons: First sentence doesn't make sense on its own. What period is it referring to?
  • Not sure if the second word of "Spanish League" needs the capitalization.
  • In the table headings, decapitalize "Top" in "La Liga Top Scorer".
  • The colors for champions and runners-up need matching symbols per WP:ACCESS, just like the ones included for leading scorers.
  • In note 4, is "fusioned" meant to be "merged"? I'd go with the latter, as it's simpler to understand.
  • The publisher in the general reference has a double period.
  • Refs 1, 2, 3, 5, 20, and 23 have hyphens in the titles that should instead be en dashes. Giants2008 (27 and counting) 15:30, 16 September 2011 (UTC)[reply]
  • Is there a cite for Real Madrid being the only Spanish team to win five straight titles?
    • No, there is not. It will be good a site with a table of all Spanish league champions? There it can be noticed this fact. AdrianRO talk 05:10, 21 September 2011 (UTC)[reply]
  • Note 5 needs heavy copy-editing or re-writing. The other notes are spotty prose-wise as well.
    • Details for each note would work, as I'm not a native English speaker. AdrianRO talk 21:58, 1 October 2011 (UTC)[reply]
      • Note 5: "The first match against Club Espanol de Madrid finished 5–5, the captain's of both teams opposed extra time." The comma should be a semi-colon, and the apostrophe needs to be removed from "captain's".
      • In note 9, the external link should be made into a citation. Maybe put it at the end of the note with the other cite?
      • Note 14: Remove en dash from "each–other".
      • Note 18 doesn't have an en dash in "Campeonato Regional Mancomunado Centre-Sur" like note 17 has.
      • Notes 16, 17, 18, and 20 could all use periods at the end.
      • Note 24 could use a cite since the similar note 23 has one. Giants2008 (27 and counting) 21:10, 8 October 2011 (UTC)[reply]

Comment: I suggest a sortable table, following the example of List of Manchester United F.C. seasons, which recently been modified to add sortability. A lot of work to be done, but I think the result would be worthwhile. — MT (talk) 05:26, 21 September 2011 (UTC)[reply]

Support This current trend of sortability (as if that adds anything but a nifty functionality. More focus on content wd be preferred) notwithstanding I find the list satisfactory. Would perhaps have preferred a split between la liga and non-la liga era, but that is a minor point. Regarding MT's comment about Manu I can only note that the list has sorted R2 in 93-94 together with R2 in 03-04. These R2's are of course not comparable as CL changes format. Sandman888 (talk) 22:22, 22 September 2011 (UTC)[reply]

Well, my above comments about sortability is just a suggestion, not diminishing anything from the quality of the list which is already great and satisfy FL criteria. I just think sortability would be a good thing to have. Perhaps, a split between La Liga and non-La Liga era is needed for proper sorting to work because rowspan does not work with sorting. But it's up to the nominator whether to implement sorting or not. About Man Utd list, I'm not the one making the changes and sortkey in there, I just happen to watch that page during its recent FLRC, where sortability is suggested. User:HonorTheKing and User:RexxS are the editors doing the hard work in that list and they are probably the editors to ask for help if the nominator need any help to make this list sortable. — MT (talk) 05:52, 23 September 2011 (UTC)[reply]
If you check the history of this list, you'll see that there was a split between Pre-La Liga and La Liga eras just like in List of FC Barcelona seasons article. But it was suggested by NapHit to merge the two tables. AdrianRO talk 06:52, 23 September 2011 (UTC)[reply]
I see, but I just realize that split or not it does not really matter. In the split version, there are still rowspans in the La Liga table. It would be impossible to use sortable table because of the rowspans in multiple "League" competitions from 1928–29 until 1939–40 would not allow proper sorting. The other rowspans in multiple "Other competitions" such as in 2002–03 season could be substituted with Template:Unbulleted list / {{ubl}} (example: ManUtd's 1999–2000 season in List of Manchester United F.C. seasons). Well, I have no other idea how to implement sorting on multiple "League" competitions and their statistics, an expert help is needed if you want to try for sortable table. — MT (talk) 07:33, 23 September 2011 (UTC)[reply]
If Template:Football season start is used there is no issue with sortability being hampered by rowspans as it works fine see the Watford and Liverpool lists. Per the pre La-Liga and La Liga bit, there is no issue again as it will sort fine. Look at the above lists to see how it works. It isn't hard to implement and in all honesty should have been done weeks ago, as I reviewed the list at the start of September. NapHit (talk) 16:16, 23 September 2011 (UTC)[reply]

Comment by nominator and editor

  • I made the table sortable. However there is a problem I don't know to solve: when sorting certain columns, the 1936-39 line appears at the top of the table. For example, when sorting Pos column ascending, the "1st" should appear at the top, not the 1936-39 row. AdrianRO talk 11:05, 25 September 2011 (UTC)[reply]
Don't worry about its supposed to that, it still sorts properly so its no problem. NapHit (talk) 22:36, 25 September 2011 (UTC)[reply]
First of all, great job on sortable table. I've made a minor change to allow 1936–39 row always placed at the bottom when sorting. However, it involved removing the colspan and the text "No competitive football was played.." has to be moved to the Notes. Feel free to revert this if you like, because there is nothing wrong with the sorting in the previous version anyway. In my opinion, it's just annoying to see the 1936–39 row always at the top, but it shouldn't matter much.
I'm sorry if this has been discussed before, but shouldn't 2010–11 be linked to 2010–11 Real Madrid C.F. season, while the La Liga entry next to 2010–11 be linked to 2010–11 La Liga instead? — MT (talk) 15:17, 26 September 2011 (UTC)[reply]
I agree with MT in the above, better to link the seasons to Real Madrid seasons better than La Liga.
  – HonorTheKing (talk) 00:53, 16 October 2011 (UTC)[reply]
No, I don't wanna do that. Doing that means a lot of red links, cause there are few articles about each Real Madrid season. Let it this way, for now, until it passes FL. AdrianRO talk 08:19, 16 October 2011 (UTC)[reply]
Support, the list it self is good, just one thing, maybe change the eye killing Yellow bgcolor to some other color? Hex calm color maybe? In addition, should change the ♦ to one, like {{double dagger}} (‡) or something like that, for WP:ACCESS.
  – HonorTheKing (talk) 17:04, 16 October 2011 (UTC)[reply]
Done. AdrianRO talk 18:52, 16 October 2011 (UTC)[reply]
The above discussion is preserved as an archive. Please do not modify it. No further edits should be made to this page.
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