Wikipedia:Featured list candidates/List of Scotland international footballers/archive1

The following is an archived discussion of a featured list nomination. Please do not modify it. Subsequent comments should be made on the article's talk page or in Wikipedia talk:Featured list candidates. No further edits should be made to this page.

The list was not promoted by Matthewedwards 06:57, 3 March 2009 [1].

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List of Scotland international footballers

Nominator(s): Jmorrison230582 (talk)

• Featured list candidates/List of Scotland international footballers/archive1

I am nominating this for featured list because I believe it meets the criteria. In particular, it is comprehensive and well sourced. There are no red link articles, and the article is illustrated with pictures of some of the players on the list, an image that illustrates the rich history of the team, and an action photo from one of the more recent major tournaments the team has participated in. It should be a stable list, as there had only been one edit for two months before I attempted to improve it this week. There will be no additional members until players reach the milestones, or the team qualifies for a tournament, neither of which can happen more frequently than once every few months. I have based this article on the FL List of Germany international footballers. Jmorrison230582 (talk) 22:01, 17 February 2009 (UTC)

Comments by Eddie6705

A few comments:

• First of all, all references need to be properly laid out using the {{cite web}} or {{cite news}} templates found here. They would need to include at least the web address, title, publisher and accessdate.
• Also in the references, RSSSF and SFA should be spelt out in full.
• They should also only be linked on their first mentions.
• [[long standing rivalry with England]] - long standing doesn't need to be linked.
• This statistic is remarkable - remarkable is a bit POV, i'd replace it with something like surprising.
• was the only Scotland player named in the FIFA 100 and is the only Scotland player to have won the European - replace Scotland with Scottish as there are two many mentions of Scotland in those two sentances.
• In the caption for the Netherlands match at Euro 96, don't need to include UEFA.
• Also i was wondering why you have chosen 20 apps and 10 goals as the cut off point, is there any particular reason? Eddie6705 (talk) 22:49, 17 February 2009 (UTC)

Responses:

• I will deal with the citation formats last, because it is more time consuming, repetitive but reasonably easy to follow. The second and third points follow from this.
• "Long-standing" has been removed from the link, as suggested.
• The phrase has been reworked as per ChrisTheDude's suggestion below.
• I have reworded the latter two mentions of Scotland to Scottish, which is also more accurate. It is (theoretically at least) possible that a player without international caps could win those awards.
• Renamed to "Euro 96", which was the common name at the time.
• I was following the template of List of Germany international footballers, really. I think it has to be as low as 20 caps, because nobody won more than Alan Morton's 31 caps until the Second World War. This is because Scotland only normally played three matches a year before then. The list would have been very unrepresentative of this period if there was not an allowance for players with 20 caps, or more than 10 goals. Some of the early players scored a remarkable number of goals in a short space of time. Hughie Gallacher is still the third top scorer in the team's history, despite only playing 20 times. Jmorrison230582 (talk) 20:31, 18 February 2009 (UTC)

I have striked through the comments which have been addressed so far. Eddie6705 (talk) 16:37, 26 February 2009 (UTC)

Good work Chris, Support. Eddie6705 (talk) 18:01, 3 March 2009 (UTC)

Comments by Truco

Resolved comments from Truco

Oppose/Comments from Truco (talk · contribs) - issues in all areas. Lead Since then, the national side has established a long-standing rivalry with England, particularly in the annual British Home Championship, which Scotland won 24 times outright and shared a further 17 times. -- Reword to Since then, the team has established a long-standing rivalry with England, particularly in the annual British Home Championship, which Scotland has individually won 24 times and shared 17 times. Not involved with the article in any way, but just for info nobody in a million years would refer to a national football team as a "franchise"..... -- ChrisTheDude (talk) 08:46, 18 February 2009 (UTC) Eh. Okay, changed to team =P--TRUCO 23:10, 19 February 2009 (UTC) This statistic is remarkable when it is considered that Scotland has participated in eight FIFA World Cup and two UEFA European Championship final tournaments. -- Like Eddie stated above reword remarkable to make it sound less POV-ish Kenny Dalglish, the only man to have won more than 100 caps for Scotland, was the only Scotland player named in the FIFA 100. -- Was should be Is since it is a record still standing today. Denis Law, who is the joint top scorer for Scotland with 30 goals, is the only Scotland player to have won the European Footballer of the Year award -- Add a dash in between joint and top and scorer The Scottish Football Association maintains a roll of honour for all players who have won 50 caps or more. -- Reword to The Scottish Football Association maintains a roll of honour for all players who have won at least 50 caps. Merge the 2nd and 3rd paragraphs, they are too short to stand alone. Key Still active for the national team. Statistics are correct as of 14 February 2009. -- The period should be a semicolon List of players Empty entries should have an emdash that is center aligned instead of a blank entry. I would rename the Notes section into Other roles since that is what it is mainly being used for. If this is done, it should also be made sortable. See also Remove the category, that's why they are used at the bottom of each article. References Use proper formatting of the references, filling out as much as you can in {{cite web}}, or other respective cite templates.--TRUCO 01:53, 18 February 2009 (UTC) Responses: I have changed national side to team. The rest of the suggested rewording is unnecessary because the BHC stopped in the mid-1980s. The pov comment has been removed and replaced with the suggestion below. The FIFA 100 list was compiled at one moment in time, to mark FIFA's centenary. I think the past tense is correct because it is an historic list, not an ongoing honour that is being updated. Kenny Dalglish will be the only Scottish player in the FIFA 100, whereas another Scottish player may win the Ballon d'Or (highly unlikely I know!). I have added a dash between joint and top. Reworded roll of honour sentence, as suggested. Short paragraphs have been merged, as suggested. Full stop replaced by semi-colon, as suggested. Major dashes added to blank entries, as suggested. "Notes" section renamed and made sortable, as suggested. I have removed the category from the see also section. Citation format is addressed above. Jmorrison230582 (talk) 20:37, 20 February 2009 (UTC)

• Support -- Previous issues resolved to meet WP:WIAFL standards.--₮RUCӨ 01:04, 4 March 2009 (UTC)

Comments by ChrisTheDude

Quick comment

Maybe the issue with the wording "remarkable"/"surprising" could be resolved by simply rewriting the appropriate bit of text to: "The team has enjoyed less success in continental and global competition. Even though Scotland has participated in eight FIFA World Cup and two UEFA European Championship final tournaments, the team has never progressed beyond the group stage of any major tournament". Just a thought...... -- ChrisTheDude (talk) 08:50, 18 February 2009 (UTC)

• I have used this wording, it scans better and has less pov. Jmorrison230582 (talk) 20:37, 20 February 2009 (UTC)

Comments by Struway2

Comments

• Lead image: it's licensed as public domain because its copyright has expired, but there are no details of where the uploader got it from, or where and when it was first published, which would confirm its status.
• Key: You've included an asterisk as an alternative to the cell colouring for active players, but you haven't actually used it in the table.
• Table: The numeric columns would look much better centred rather than left-aligned. Probably the position abbreviations would as well.
• Image captions: Caption should only have a full-stop if it's a whole sentence (see MOS:CAPTIONS)

cheers, Struway2 (talk) 13:35, 18 February 2009 (UTC)

Replies:

• At first glance it appears to be a contemporary illustration, which would surely fall under fair use (life of author + 70 years), given that the match was played > 136 years ago. I will remove the picture if it is a problem, as it doesn't add that much value.

Unfortunately, appearing to be a contemporary illustration and actually being one aren't the same thing. I've no reason to assume it wasn't uploaded in good faith, it's just a pity the uploader didn't add any details. I'm not an image expert, perhaps someone who knows more than me might express an opinion.

• Asterisk removed.

Sorry, should have made myself clear. You do need to use the asterisk in the table: WP:COLOUR says "Ensure that colour is not the only way used to convey important information". Struway2 (talk) 13:28, 26 February 2009 (UTC)

• Changed alignments of all columns to centre except the names.
• Removed full stops from captions. Jmorrison230582 (talk) 20:37, 20 February 2009 (UTC)

• • Summary: I believe that just leaves the citation template. Jmorrison230582 (talk) 20:37, 20 February 2009 (UTC)
    • Are the citations going to be fixed? I'll be happy to support once that's been fixed, but it's been a week now with no movement on that front...... -- ChrisTheDude (talk) 08:44, 27 February 2009 (UTC)

Comments from Dabomb87 (talk · contribs)

• "first ever official international match"
• "joint–top scorer " Hyphen, not en dash.
• File:Craig Gordon.jpg needs an author.
• File:Jim Baxter in Scotland shirt.png needs an author.
• Many of the image captions could use with more description instead of just the player's name.
• You need more than color to represent the color, use an asterisk. Dabomb87 (talk) 14:59, 28 February 2009 (UTC)

Sources

• The sources need major cleanup. Every web citation needs a URL, web page title, publisher (in italics if it is a magazine or newspaper), and last access date. Abbreviations in publishers need to be spelled in full. Use {{cite web}} to make your job easier. Dabomb87 (talk) 14:59, 28 February 2009 (UTC)

Comments from ArtVandelay13 (talk · contribs)

• "the team has never progressed beyond the group stage of any major tournament." - what you really mean here is the first round of any major tournament; there can be groups at any stage of a tournament.
• Do you really need to reference every player's SFA page individually? Isn't there an index that you can cite?
• You should probably expand the captions on the player images, to indicate why those players have been singled out. ArtVandelay13 (talk) 13:30, 1 March 2009 (UTC)

Comments

As this FLC appears to have stagnated a bit, and the original nominator seems to have stopped addressing comments, I have decided to step in. I have:

1. Replaced the lead image which had unclear provenance
2. Removed player images with missing source info
3. Written proper captions for all the photos
4. Correctly formatted all the references
5. Changed subheadings
6. Addressed all the prose points raised by Art
7. Put the asterisk back in to add to the pink

Hopefully this addresses all the outstanding issues. I will contact everyone who has commented to date (in case they aren't watching this page) and request that they re-review.... -- ChrisTheDude (talk) 12:06, 3 March 2009 (UTC)

The above discussion is preserved as an archive. Please do not modify it. No further edits should be made to this page.