Wikipedia:Featured list candidates/List of Spanish football champions/archive1

The following is an archived discussion of a featured list nomination. Please do not modify it. Subsequent comments should be made on the article's talk page or in Wikipedia talk:Featured list candidates. No further edits should be made to this page.

The list was promoted by The Rambling Man 18:18, 12 September 2009 [1].

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List of Spanish football champions

Nominator(s): NapHit (talk) 19:46, 23 August 2009 (UTC)

• Featured list candidates/List of Spanish football champions/archive1

I am nominating this for featured list because I feel it meets the criteria necessary to become a featured list. Thanks NapHit (talk) 19:46, 23 August 2009 (UTC)

Resolved comments from Cheetah (talk)

Quick comment Fix the external links(2 dead, one redirect) and add the alt text for the main image.--Cheetah (talk) 21:02, 23 August 2009 (UTC) Done all requests NapHit (talk) 21:36, 23 August 2009 (UTC) Oppose I think you need to mention first that the league was established in 1929 before talking about Copa del Rey. If you could substitute the book with an ebook or a website, that would be great! "It is contested..." - What do you mean by "it"? It's easy to assume you mean Copa del Rey. "...clubs winning..." - avoid noun + -ing I didn't find in the ref #4 any info about Barcelona's treble, more specifically, any info on Barca's Champion's league title. La Liga was established in 1929, yet the first season mentions 1928...why? Just to be safe, avoid redirects in the "seasons" column Add the current ref#2 next to the "Champions" header. All of the refs from RSSSF are outdated Where did you get the info on runner-ups and Third place teams from? I don't see them listed in any of the refs I can see up to 2000, how about more recent runner ups?--Cheetah (talk) 03:24, 26 August 2009 (UTC) Barcelona or FC Barcelona? Be consistent FC Barcelona should be sorted as "B", not as "F" "None" should not be sorted as "N" as if it's a club. When I sort the "goals" column, it gives me 4 different ways, needs to be just 2 ways What club the top scorers were representing in those years? The heading should be more specific.--Cheetah (talk) 03:24, 26 August 2009 (UTC) The Rob Hughes' article is published in the New York Times, not in International Herald Tribune, as this page states. I much rather see this link.--Cheetah (talk) 03:24, 26 August 2009 (UTC) --Cheetah (talk) 03:42, 24 August 2009 (UTC) Done all requests I think, apart from the book one which I think doesn't need to be done a book is a more reliable source than the web. NapHit (talk) 19:55, 24 August 2009 (UTC) In the lead, you have "FC Barcelona", that is linked twice. "FC Barcelona is only Spanish team "→ "Barcelona is the only Spanish team" Update the retrieval date for the "Spain - List of topscorers" reference. The reference you're using to cite the runner-ups and teams in the third place is showing only teams up to the 1999-2000 season. A new reference is needed that shows who the runner-ups for the 2000-present are. --Cheetah (talk) 04:50, 27 August 2009 (UTC) Got the reference now NapHit (talk) 15:22, 29 August 2009 (UTC)

• Support--Cheetah (talk) 19:11, 30 August 2009 (UTC)

Resolved comments from KV5

Comments from KV5 "Of the ten clubs that founded the league" - comma after league "Before La Liga was set up, a regionalised cup competition, the Copa del Rey was regarded as the national championship." - there needs to be a comma after Copa del Rey because it's parenthetical, but that would be a lot of commas, so I suggest the following: Before La Liga's organization, the Copa del Rey—a regionalised cup competition—was regarded as the national championship. This also corrects an issue of informal language. "three lowest placed teams" - lowest-placed "they have won 31 and 19 titles respectively as of 2009" - respectively should be set off by commas, and consider using {{As of}} for "as of 2009". "No other club has won the title on more than nine occasions," - replace the comma with a semicolon "the most recent club outside of Real Madrid and Barcelona" - informal language, change to "the most recent club other than Real Madrid and Barcelona" If you are going to capitalize The Double, then you should also capitalize The Treble. "having won the league and cup five times in its history." - having won the league and cup in the same year five times in its history. for clarity Link Real Madrid in infobox. "Runner Up" - Runner-up "Third Place" - Third place You have "Top scorer" in one column when there can be more than one, but "Clubs" in the other. Change to "Top scorers" or "Club" - one or the other. It's not clear to a reader who's not familiar with the terminology what goals means. Either enumerate in the key or add a footnote sing {{ref label}} and {{note label}}. 1980–81 season is missing a piece of info, there's a blank cell. Blank cells should have em-dashes, not en-dashes. I might also change the "none"s to em-dashes. What is referencing the table? The references in the column. NapHit (talk) 22:22, 25 August 2009 (UTC) Hope these comments help. KV5 (Talk • Phils) 23:22, 24 August 2009 (UTC) Done all requests and left a few comments. NapHit (talk) 22:22, 25 August 2009 (UTC) I don't believe that the bold on "Spanish football champions" is necessary; the wording of the first sentence seems forced. See WP:BOLDTITLE. I guess it does match other champions lists at the moment. Well I think it's fine to be honest, describes what the champions are, and bold is correct I think. NapHit (talk) 22:22, 25 August 2009 (UTC) I'm really not concerned about it matching; I am more concerned about the forced language. KV5 (Talk • Phils) 13:17, 26 August 2009 (UTC) Another paragraph in the lead should be added. It's quite short as is. I would add another paragraph but I do not have many sources and I am unsure what to add. NapHit (talk) 22:22, 25 August 2009 (UTC) "Key" should be its own section above the table Unnecessary, I personally think it is fine the way it is, and previous list nominations this is what I have been told to do. NapHit (talk) 22:22, 25 August 2009 (UTC) Without it, there is no option to link to the "key" section. KV5 (Talk • Phils) 13:17, 26 August 2009 (UTC) Symbols should not be separated from their entries by a space. To alleviate crowding with the daggers, I would suggest superscripting them. Not the asterisks, though. Again I think this is unnecessary is there a guideline on this, because this has never been brought up before, I personally think it looks neater and better with a space. NapHit (talk) 22:22, 25 August 2009 (UTC) There is no written guideline; however, it is common publishing practice and there is precedent throughout a variety of recently featured lists. KV5 (Talk • Phils) 13:17, 26 August 2009 (UTC) Done all apart from extra paragraph, which as I explained above will be unable to be referenced and not sure what to include. NapHit (talk) 22:05, 28 August 2009 (UTC)

Conditional support – I still believe the lead to be a bit short, but won't hold up my support over it. KV5 (Talk • Phils) 13:39, 8 September 2009 (UTC)

• Comments
  • "Top scorers clubs" is missing an apostrophe
  • If the winners of the Copa Del Rey were regarded as the champions of Spanish football prior to 1929, as you assert, why are they not included on a list of the champions of Spanish football?
  • No need for capital A on "As of 2009" in the lead#
  • "FC Barcelona is only Spanish team whom have won The Treble" should be "FC Barcelona is the only Spanish team to have won The Treble"
  • If you are going to separate out the book into a bibliography, then it should come before the refs, as currently you have "Cresswell p489" as a ref but at this point the reader has no idea what "Cresswell" is........
• Hope this helps -- ChrisTheDude (talk) 08:22, 27 August 2009 (UTC)

Done all requests, and turns out Copa del Rey was not properly regarded as national championship so not going to include them. NapHit (talk) 22:05, 28 August 2009 (UTC)

Comments –

• No need for two Copa del Rey links in the lead.
• In the table, Cesar Rodriguez Alvarez is sorting as the final player, below the Zs. Is this the intention?
  • No it's because of the A having the mark above it confuses the sortname template, there is a way to fix it but i can't figure it out NapHit (talk) 22:06, 28 August 2009 (UTC)
    • It's sorting properly now.--Cheetah (talk) 03:43, 29 August 2009 (UTC)
• No italics for publisher in reference 5, since UEFA is not a printed publication (assuming this doesn't come from a publication of theirs). Giants2008 (17–14) 20:14, 27 August 2009 (UTC)

Done all requests NapHit (talk) 21:59, 28 August 2009 (UTC)

Support – Good list overall. Giants2008 (17–14) 23:29, 3 September 2009 (UTC)

Support, all issues resolved. Dabomb87 (talk) 23:37, 3 September 2009 (UTC)

Resolved issues, Dabomb87 (talk)

Comments from Dabomb87 (talk · contribs) "The Spanish football champions are the winners of the primary football competition in Spain: La Liga. " The colon is too abrupt. Use a comma. "The league, first established in 1929, originally contained ten teams. Of the ten clubs that founded the league, only Real Madrid, Barcelona and Athletic Bilbao have not been relegated."-->The league, first established in 1929, originally contained ten teams, of which Real Madrid, Barcelona and Athletic Bilbao have not been relegated. "La Liga is contested by 20 teams, with the three lowest-placed teams relegated to the Segunda División and replaced by the top three teams in that division."-->La Liga is contested in by 20 teams; the three lowest-placed teams are relegated to the Segunda División and replaced by the top three teams in that division. Alt text is present, thanks, but could you be more descriptive of what the trophies look like? Also, can you make an image caption for the picture? "won the Spanish version of The Double the most, having won the league" A brief explanation of what The Double is would be nice. "Barcelona is the only Spanish team whom have won The Treble"-->Barcelona is the only Spanish team that has won The Treble "which includes the UEFA Champions League as well as the league and Copa del Rey. " Doesn't make sense: "the UEFA Champions League as well as the league"? What is the "Goals" column referring to? The amount of goals scored by the top scorer in the league for that season NapHit (talk) 18:17, 30 August 2009 (UTC) OK, but that's not clear to the casual reader. Dabomb87 (talk) 21:40, 30 August 2009 (UTC) No third-place totals? added a description to the key NapHit (talk) 12:37, 1 September 2009 (UTC) You should probably add a note to the table itself noting the seasons that were cancelled because of civil war. Don't think it's necessary seeing as this is mentioned in the lead. NapHit (talk) 18:17, 30 August 2009 (UTC) You might note that Atlético Madrid was known at a time as Atlético Aviación. Dabomb87 (talk) 17:25, 29 August 2009 (UTC) Done this NapHit (talk) 13:25, 1 September 2009 (UTC)

Sources look good. Dabomb87 (talk) 17:25, 29 August 2009 (UTC)

Done all requests and left a few comments. NapHit (talk) 18:17, 30 August 2009 (UTC)

• Support with one minor quibble - I would move the bit about three clubs never having been relegated to after the sentence that introduces the concept of relegation....... -- ChrisTheDude (talk) 08:27, 1 September 2009 (UTC)
  • Done. Dabomb87 (talk) 13:10, 1 September 2009 (UTC)

• Comments
• Possible discrepancies, according to the source...
  • Unamono scored 20 goals in 1939/40.
  • 1943/44 top scorer was Edmundo Suárez with 27 goals.
  • Telmo Zarra scored 19 goals in 1944/45.
  • Hans Krankl scored 26 goals in 1978/79.
  • Ronaldo scored 25 goals in 2003/04.

The only of these that was right is Edmundo Suarez, and Zarra, the rest are not correct and the info currently in the table is fine, out of interest where did you get your information. NapHit (talk) 16:29, 6 September 2009 (UTC)

I used the goalscorer source on the page, as the list differs from the source you'll need to add additional sources for Unamono, Krankl and Ronaldo. --Jpeeling (talk) 17:49, 6 September 2009 (UTC)

• Not sure about the second section, it's titled Total titles won but has runners-up/third place details which doesn't seem quite right. Also there's teams who've come second and third who aren't listed because they never won the title, could the title be changed to Results by team, like some other football FLs, and the teams who've finished only second/third be included? --Jpeeling (talk) 22:09, 5 September 2009 (UTC)

I hink it's fine the way it is personally, and should not include teams who have not won the league so it is the same as other league champion lists. NapHit (talk) 16:36, 6 September 2009 (UTC)

Well Scotland does include those that only finished runners-up. To have a table that includes second and third for some teams but not others doesn't seem right to me. --Jpeeling (talk) 17:49, 6 September 2009 (UTC)

Comments from -- SRE.K.A.L.24_[c]

• The article looks like an article about Spanish football playoff seasons, instead of champions, since it is also showing the third place winners, and the top scorer, both of which does not relate to the Spanish football champions. I think you should use the format in List of Super Bowl champions.
  • That format would not be appropriate, as the championship is not contested via play-offs. The champions are the team that finished top of the division at the end of the season, simple as that -- ChrisTheDude (talk) 08:35, 7 September 2009 (UTC)
    • Then shouldn't the article be called List of La Liga seasons? Since right now, that title fits perfectly with the article. -- [[SRE.K.A.L.|L.A.K.ERS]] 08:41, 7 September 2009 (UTC)
• "The Spanish football champions are the winners of the primary football competition in Spain, La Liga." So can only La Liga teams play for the championship?
  • It's not a case of "teams who can play for the championship", the team that finishes top of La Liga at the end of the season wins the championship..... -- ChrisTheDude (talk) 08:35, 7 September 2009 (UTC)
    • So why is this called the "Spanish football champions"? Why not "La Liga champions"?
      • Dunno, just to match equivalent articles on England, Scotland, etc, I guess...... -- ChrisTheDude (talk) 08:48, 7 September 2009 (UTC)
• I think the "Total titles won by town or city" section is redundant, as you can just put the cities into the "Total titles won" section.
• Overall, the article is pretty confusing for people who don't know how soccer playoffs work.

-- [[SRE.K.A.L.|L.A.K.ERS]] 22:50, 6 September 2009 (UTC)

Simply put, there are no play-offs in soccer....... -- ChrisTheDude (talk) 08:32, 7 September 2009 (UTC)

That should be clarified in the article IMO, since I never knew that. -- [[SRE.K.A.L.|L.A.K.ERS]] 08:41, 7 September 2009 (UTC)

So, all articles on championships in sports which don't use a play-off system (ie pretty much all of them outside the USA) need to specifically state "the championship is not decided by play-offs" in case Americans assume it is? Seems a bit unnecessary........ -- ChrisTheDude (talk) 08:43, 7 September 2009 (UTC)

Sorry, that was a bit snippy. Bad morning..... -- ChrisTheDude (talk) 08:50, 7 September 2009 (UTC)

Laugh out loud. It's 2:00am here, which is even worst. I do get what you're saying, but really was confused at first. And considering the fact that around 50% of Wikipedia users are American, at least one sentence would be nice, like for example "The winner is determined by seasonal play", or something similar. -- [[SRE.K.A.L.|L.A.K.ERS]] 08:54, 7 September 2009 (UTC)

Have added a sentence to this effect -- ChrisTheDude (talk) 08:55, 7 September 2009 (UTC)

I appreciate it! -- [[SRE.K.A.L.|L.A.K.ERS]] 08:56, 7 September 2009 (UTC)

The above discussion is preserved as an archive. Please do not modify it. No further edits should be made to this page.