Wikipedia:Featured list candidates/List of Toronto Blue Jays managers/archive2

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The following is an archived discussion of a featured list nomination. Please do not modify it. Subsequent comments should be made on the article's talk page or in Wikipedia talk:Featured list candidates. No further edits should be made to this page.

The list was not promoted by User:The Rambling Man 20:17, 30 July 2008 [1].

List of Toronto Blue Jays managers[edit]

previous FLC (08:36, 17 July 2008)

I am re-nominating this article because I believe it actually deserves to be promoted to featured list material. Annoyomous24 20:38, 17 July 2008 (UTC)[reply]

Resolved comments from Crzycheetah 23:08, 25 July 2008 (UTC)[reply]
  • Comment I can't verify any info in the "playoffs" column. Needs sources. DONE! --Crzycheetah 21:25, 17 July 2008 (UTC)[reply]
Not done! I still can't find it.--Crzycheetah 02:03, 18 July 2008 (UTC)[reply]
I hope this way would work. Annoyomous24 00:48, 20 July 2008 (UTC)[reply]
It would, but I think listing just one link would be even better. It took me 5 mins to find it.;) Put it as an in-line citation in the "playoffs" column.--Crzycheetah 01:48, 20 July 2008 (UTC)[reply]
DONE! Annoyomous2403:54, 20 July 2008 (UTC)[reply]
"Number of coaches" is ambiguous and should be changed to maybe terms of coaches(?)
GC should be changed to GM (games managed)
Crzycheetah 03:15, 21 July 2008 (UTC)[reply]
Done the second bullet. I don't think it's ambigous since almost all sports list related to coaching use it so I don't think it is going to be a problem. Annoyomous24 20:19, 21 July 2008 (UTC)[reply]
  • Comments
    • They are the first and only team.. - the second part of this sentence is redundant.
    • With the fellow Canadian franchise ... - this sentence should be reworded better.
    • He is followed by Bobby Cox with in both categories with 648 games and 355 wins - Should be reworded
    • Gaston is the only... and Cox is the only... - either these two sentences should be reworded better.
    • The fact that Cox won 1985 AL Manager of the Year is not sourced.
    • Whenever I click on the "c" footnote, nothing happens because there is no 'c" note in the notes section.
    • 2008–Present → 2008–present
    • The "Playoffs Information" reference should be cited from the "playoffs" column instead.

--Crzycheetah 23:08, 25 July 2008 (UTC)[reply]

Done all but I don't get what you mean by The "Playoffs Information" reference should be cited from the "playoffs" column instead. -- K. Annoyomous24 23:32, 25 July 2008 (UTC)[reply]
  • SupportOppose--Crzycheetah 23:58, 25 July 2008 (UTC)[reply]
    • I oppose because the sorting does not work properly. Try sorting playoffs stats, plus the seasons should be linked and that coach who is listed 3 times should be linked and the # should be next to his name.--Crzycheetah 01:47, 29 July 2008 (UTC)[reply]
I just fixed the sorting. The seasons are linked at their first appearance and do not need to be linked again in sch close proximity; same policies as the lead section. Same goes for Cito Gaston; the reason for no numbers there is explained in the footnote. KV5 • Squawk box • Fight on! 01:53, 29 July 2008 (UTC)[reply]
Guess what, the seasons are not linked at their first appearance when one sorts. And Gaston is not linked at its first appearance when one sorts. When I sort, I see an emdash next to Gasyon's name and I have no idea what the footnote means in this instance.--Crzycheetah 03:56, 29 July 2008 (UTC)[reply]
The linking is based on the default code, not the sorted code. Not knowing what the em-dash means is because no one thought to link the footnote. I've fixed that. Cito Gaston is always first when sorting, I just checked it because that is the way I set up the sortkey. The default sorting is in chronological order, and though you are correct that the codes are not linked in order when the table is resorted into reverse chronological order, the links are close enough together that it certainly works. The sorting's fixed now, and criterion 4 says that the table should be "easy to navigate, and includes—where helpful—section headings and table sort facilities." (from WP:WIAFL).
Thanks for bringing up the criterion 4, this list is currently failing it. It's hard to navigate now that Gaston still comes up unlinked when I sort and so are the unlinked seasons.--Crzycheetah 05:38, 29 July 2008 (UTC)[reply]
  • Object. The list says Bobby Cox has 293 losses but the reference says 292. The list says Jimy Williams has 522 games coached but the reference says 523. maclean 00:52, 18 July 2008 (UTC)[reply]
They must have miswrote it. I fixed it on the table. Annoyomous24 01:32, 18 July 2008 (UTC)[reply]
The mantra at Wikipedia:Verifiability is "verifiability, not truth" which is why we insist on Wikipedia:Reliable sources. I understand that Baseball-Reference.com has been accepted in previous FLs as reliable, however, we will require a better source here to verify this list. maclean 02:26, 18 July 2008 (UTC)[reply]
I actually added up the wins and losses and it adds up to what is on the table. Also, there is a second reference which backs up baseball-reference.com. The second reference is more reliable from the stats stand point. Annoyomous24 02:44, 18 July 2008 (UTC)[reply]
It's considered WP:OR. You need to change current references #5 and 6.--Crzycheetah 07:54, 25 July 2008 (UTC)[reply]
CHANGED REFERENCES FOR BOBBY COX AND JIMY WILLIAMS! -- K. Annoyomous24 20:38, 25 July 2008 (UTC)[reply]
Thanks. I corrected the one inconsistency.[2] The list looks good, but I find the introduction does not demonstrate a command of the subject, specifically why/how managers of the Blue Jays changed over time. --maclean 03:59, 26 July 2008 (UTC)[reply]
To be honest, I'm not good at copyediting and I seriously do not know how to explain it. -- K. Annoyomous24 GO LAKERS! 02:06, 29 July 2008 (UTC)[reply]
Resolved comments from Killervogel5

Comments from Killervogel5

  • Some of the grammar in the lead strikes me as a little stunted.
    • "The Blue Jays have never went into the playoffs since their last World Series win." should be "The Blue Jays have not gone to the playoffs since their last World Series win" or something similar.
DONE! -- K. Annoyomous24 20:19, 28 July 2008 (UTC)[reply]
    • The first paragraph jumps around. It talks about the Blue Jays, then about what a manager is, then back to the Blue Jays again, then the last sentence goes back and touches on the first sentence again. It needs a copyedit.
Can you just tell me what to do? I don't know how to copyedit. -- K. Annoyomous24 23:10, 28 July 2008 (UTC)[reply]
Basically, the paragraph should flow in a logical order, which it doesn't at the moment. For example, if you are going to define "manager," it should be before you state that how many managers there were. You also wrote that they are the only Canadian baseball franchise and that they are the only team outside the United States. One or the other should suffice. To be honest with you, I wouldn't use MLB in your writing either. I like that you've defined the abbreviation, but I still think that it should only be used when an abbreviation is necessary (in a reference or footnote; in an area where space is at a premium, like the key). I don't think I've ever heard a baseball manager called a field manager, though I know the term is properly correct. It's just little things that would lead me to remain neutral or oppose because criterion 1 of FLC states that the article "features professional standards of writing." If I were to look at that professionally, as an educator, I would not be pleased with the organization of the information. KV5 • Squawk box • Fight on!
I don't know if I'm done the copyediting but tell me if I am. If I'm not, tell me what to do. -- K. Annoyomous24 00:07, 29 July 2008 (UTC)[reply]
I've made the last changes I think are necessary on this point. Let me know what you think. KV5 • Squawk box • Fight on!
Thanks!
  • The key states that managers who are marked spent their "entire MLB coaching career with the Blue Jays". It should be managing career, unless you know for a fact and can provide references that show that they only coached for the Blue Jays as well as managing them, since baseball makes a distinction between the two terms.
DONE! -- K. Annoyomous24 20:19, 28 July 2008 (UTC)[reply]
  • Footnote B is a big run-on sentence; it needs commas. My recommendation for better prose: "Gene Tenace coached until the end of the 1991 Toronto Blue Jays season; however, he did not coach in the playoffs, as he was only a interim manager for Cito Gaston."
DONE! -- K. Annoyomous24 20:19, 28 July 2008 (UTC)[reply]
  • If you are going to use the Toronto Blue Jays navbox on the page, you need to change the link in the navbox so that it matches the title of this article.
DONE! -- K. Annoyomous24 20:19, 28 July 2008 (UTC)[reply]
  • "He is followed by Bobby Cox in both categories with 648 games and 355 wins." needs a reference.
DONE! -- K. Annoyomous24 20:19, 28 July 2008 (UTC)[reply]
  • "Cito Gaston, the current manager of the Blue Jays, managed the most games and wins of any Blue Jays manager with 1334 games and 690 wins." needs a reference.
DONE!
  • Once you link a year for the first time in the list, it should not be linked again (i.e., 1989, 1991, 1997, 2002, 2004, and 2008).
If you look at all the other baseball manager-related lists, youll see that most of them also relink their years so I currently want to see what people think about that.
Every article I've worked on has had the first year linked in the section and then not again until the next section, especially here, where the years are so close together.
DONE! -- K. Annoyomous24 23:03, 28 July 2008 (UTC)[reply]
Review by KV5 • Squawk box • Fight on!
  • Why isn't the table sortable?
In one of my previous FLCs, someone told me that you shouldn't sort the table for sports-coach related lists.
I don't know who told you that, but I'm in an FLC right now for the Phillies managers, and I had to sort that one. The FLC criteria state that the table... "is easy to navigate, and includes—where helpful—section headings and table sort facilities." (from WP:WIAFL).
Your FLC has a different format than mine. if I sort my table, it'll look messed up. Check for yourself. -- K. Annoyomous24
I'm aware that our FLCs are certainly different, but the table is still able to be sorted. Click here for more info.
DONE! but I have a problem that I've been trying to fix all day. That problem is that I can't put the first row back to its original position. -- K. Annoyomous24 00:47, 29 July 2008 (UTC)[reply]
It was the rowspan parameter. I removed it, and added an unsortable parameter to the reference column. KV5 • Squawk box • Fight on! 01:40, 29 July 2008 (UTC)[reply]

Support! I give this list my conditional support, based on the outcome of the comment below. I am now prepared to put my full support behind this list. Congratulations! KV5 • Squawk box • Fight on! 00:45, 29 July 2008 (UTC) Now withholding support until the issue below is resolved. KV5 • Squawk box • Fight on![reply]

I now have a concern (again) that the list does not conform to MOS:LINK, but per WP:IAR will not withhold my support because of it. KV5 • Squawk box • Fight on! 12:46, 29 July 2008 (UTC)[reply]
Sortable tables need all potential links to be wikilinked. But fear not, the list will shortly receive its star - I'd like to see if maclean needs further work on it. The Rambling Man (talk) 12:52, 29 July 2008 (UTC)[reply]
I'm working on an addition to the intro: [3] maclean 04:32, 30 July 2008 (UTC)[reply]
Then I guess I should go fix that at List of Philadelphia Phillies managers because no one said that to me after the table got sorted. KV5 • Squawk box • Fight on! 13:01, 29 July 2008 (UTC)[reply]
Hmm, you are absolutely right. Baseball-Reference.com doesn't list them either, that's very unusual. These managers who were listed on the Jays website aren't listed anywhere on Baseball-Reference as having managed the Jays. Let me take a quick look at something and I'll get back to you. KV5 • Squawk box • Fight on! 19:43, 30 July 2008 (UTC)[reply]
I'm guessing that those two managers were only interims and their records were counted in the regular managers record. -- K. Annoyomous24 GO LAKERS! 19:53, 30 July 2008 (UTC)[reply]
I don't know about that. They were both coaches at the time they were supposed to have been managing, but if we can't prove anything, then I don't know what we do about sourcing it. The 3 games Rojas supposedly managed would have made sense if Martinez were suspended at any point, as he was Martinez' bench coach, but I can't find any confirmation of a suspension. In addition, there is NO information that I can find about a Harry Warner related to baseball. We don't have an article on him; the only Harry Warners are a science fiction guy and the movie guy. One's a recluse, and the other was dead before the Blue Jays existed. If this can't be fixed, I can't in good conscience support what may very well be an incomplete list. KV5 • Squawk box • Fight on! 19:58, 30 July 2008 (UTC)[reply]
"O my gosh...I really hate this. Des this mean there is no way we can make this into a featured list or is there any way he can fix this problem? -- K. Annoyomous24 GO LAKERS! 20:00, 30 July 2008 (UTC)[reply]
It just means that some explanation needs to be found for why Cookie Rojas and Harry Warner are listed as managers on the official website and not on Baseball-Reference. A reason has to be found for why the sources don't agree, and essentially it has to be proven which one is correct. KV5 • Squawk box • Fight on! 20:03, 30 July 2008 (UTC)[reply]

Not 100% commensurate with the issues here but it appears that there are some pretty significant issues that must be resolved. I'd suggest this list is withdrawn and these issues sorted out outside the FLC process (after all, this isn't WP:PR). The Rambling Man (talk) 20:06, 30 July 2008 (UTC)[reply]

I concur, especially considering that this list didn't go through a peer review before its two FLC noms. KV5 • Squawk box • Fight on! 20:08, 30 July 2008 (UTC)[reply]

After 23 days of trying to get this article into a FL status, you finally tell me to PR this article. Seriously? I just want this over with. -- K. Annoyomous24 GO LAKERS! 20:18, 30 July 2008 (UTC)[reply]

  • I can confirm that Harry Warner took over for about 2 weeks as Hartsfield was assisting his ailing wife in hospital. -maclean 20:22, 30 July 2008 (UTC)[reply]
    • Closing note - this list needed a peer review but good editors helped out. Despite that it still lingers in the realms of uncertainty so I'm archiving this discussion and would encourage both reviewers and nominators to work offline on it to bring it to FL standard before re-submitting it at WP:FLC. The Rambling Man (talk) 20:27, 30 July 2008 (UTC)[reply]
      • I will continue this final discussion at the talk page of the list. Reviewers, come join it. KV5 • Squawk box • Fight on! 21:01, 30 July 2008 (UTC)[reply]
The above discussion is preserved as an archive. Please do not modify it. No further edits should be made to this page.
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