Wikipedia:Featured list candidates/List of Valve Corporation video games/archive1

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The following is an archived discussion of a featured list nomination. Please do not modify it. Subsequent comments should be made on the article's talk page or in Wikipedia talk:Featured list candidates. No further edits should be made to this page.

The list was promoted by PresN via FACBot (talk) 00:31, 1 July 2017 (UTC) [1].[reply]

List of Valve Corporation video games[edit]

List of Valve Corporation video games (edit | talk | history | protect | delete | links | watch | logs | views)

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Nominator(s): The1337gamer (talk) 20:23, 15 May 2017 (UTC)[reply]

Valve is one of the most the distinguished developers in the gaming industry. After rewriting this list from scratch, it has gone from 1 reference to 134. The list is now comprehensive, covering all the games they have released to date along with information on a number of cancelled projects. --The1337gamer (talk) 20:23, 15 May 2017 (UTC)[reply]

Comments by Golbez
  • A few notes:
    • Does the first entry in a list need a note saying it's the first entry? :)
Removed this. --The1337gamer (talk) 17:24, 18 May 2017 (UTC)[reply]
    • TFC is noted as a remake of a mod whose devs were hired by Valve. But CS just says "mod." I know it wasn't a remake, but were its devs hired by Valve? How did this mod, which originally came out before 2000, end up as a Valve product released in 2000? Likewise, Day of Defeat.
Added that DoD and CS devs were hired by Valve. --The1337gamer (talk) 17:24, 18 May 2017 (UTC)[reply]
    • A lot of games lack genre. For example, Counter-Strike Neo is a blacklinked arcade game, so there's no indication as to what kind of game it is. I mean, based on my concept of arcade games it would seem to not be an online multiplayer first-person shooter, so what is it?
It is an online multiplayer first-person shooter that's available in Japaneses arcades. I didn't feel like it was necessary to restate genres for spin-offs/sequels if they were the same as the original game. Do you want me to state it? Which other games should I do that for? --The1337gamer (talk) 17:24, 18 May 2017 (UTC)[reply]
Hmm. That one's tough, because I would say an online first-person shooter *arcade* game is pretty rare, and since it's a blacklink there's nowhere to go for more info on the gameplay except the source. But... since it's Counter-Strike, we can assume in the absence of other notes that it's the same type of gameplay.
    • Likewise, "multiplayer game" is a bit lacking in detail for Ricochet.
I'll write a description on this later. There's not a whole lot of coverage on Ricochet. --The1337gamer (talk) 17:24, 18 May 2017 (UTC)[reply]
I think what you put works.
    • So this might just be me, but I'm curious about "Arcade". Is that a platform? Or should we be more specific and say, for Counter-Strike Neo, that it's on the Namco System N2, and for Left 4 Dead Survivors, it's apparently the Taito Type X3 but this is stupidly difficult for me to source. I dunno if this is needed, but as an arcade geek it would make me happy. :P Especially since they're blacklinks so there's no further place to find info on them on Wikipedia. This isn't needed, since it may be a style change, but I wanted to bring it up. --Golbez (talk) 17:26, 26 May 2017 (UTC)[reply]
Typically we list "Arcade" as a platform in video game infoboxes rather than which particular board/system it is. So I think that convention should carry over to lists. I would add the system/board information to the notes but just like you I'm unable to source L4D Survivors system. --The1337gamer (talk) 06:29, 2 June 2017 (UTC)[reply]
  • That's all for now. --Golbez (talk) 12:52, 18 May 2017 (UTC)[reply]
    • Sorry for the delay in responding, and a few extra notes above. Thanks! And btw Support since my new request is optional. --Golbez (talk) 17:26, 26 May 2017 (UTC)[reply]
Thanks. --The1337gamer (talk) 06:29, 2 June 2017 (UTC)[reply]
Comments by Cognissonance
  • Isn't it a wiki-rule that all images be reduced in size? File:Valve logo.svg is pretty big.
Only non-free images have to be low resolution to comply with WP:NFCC. Images from Wikimedia Commons can be high resolution. --The1337gamer (talk) 21:53, 3 June 2017 (UTC)[reply]
  • "Valve Corporation is an American video game developer and publisher founded in 1996 by Gabe Newell and Mike Harrington and is currently based in Bellevue, Washington." – The sentence might flow better with the first "is" covering the entire sentence's verb use, making "and is" obsolete.
  • intellectual properties – Link to Intellectual property.
  • The list itself is interesting and comprehensive.
  • "as the latter gained traction" – Was confused when I read it about which of them was the latter. Perhaps clarify that it was Half-Life.
  • "Untitled RPG – A fantasy, action role-playing game" – For simple continuity, I would have written the genre with "Untitled role-playing game (RPG)" before using the abbreviation.
  • If there is more information at all about the cancelled games, I suggest adding it. No stone left unturned.
  • Overall:
  1. Prose. It features professional standards of writing.
    2. checkY
  2. Lead. It has an engaging lead that introduces the subject and defines the scope and inclusion criteria.
    3. checkY
  3. Comprehensiveness.
    • (a) It comprehensively covers the defined scope, providing at least all of the major items and, where practical, a complete set of items; where appropriate, it has annotations that provide useful and appropriate information about the items.checkY
    • (b) In length and/or topic, it meets all of the requirements for stand-alone lists; does not violate the content-forking guideline, does not largely duplicate material from another article, and could not reasonably be included as part of a related article.checkY
  4. Structure. It is easy to navigate and includes, where helpful, section headings and table sort facilities.
    5. checkY
  5. Style. It complies with the Manual of Style and its supplementary pages.
  6. Stability. It is not the subject of ongoing edit wars and its content does not change significantly from day to day, except in response to the featured list process.
    7. checkY
Thanks. Made the suggested changes. The1337gamer (talk) 21:53, 3 June 2017 (UTC)[reply]
Resolved comments from The Rambling Man (talk) 07:06, 12 June 2017 (UTC)[reply]
Comments
 Done --The1337gamer (talk) 06:44, 12 June 2017 (UTC)[reply]
  • Lead image has no caption or alt text.
Added alt text. Does it need a caption? It's seems kind of self-explanatory what the image is showing. --The1337gamer (talk) 06:44, 12 June 2017 (UTC)[reply]

The Rambling Man (talk) 06:31, 12 June 2017 (UTC)[reply]

I'm not sure, I've objected to these frameless, captionless images in the past, so I'm just being consistent, I think it's obvious to most of us, but I also don't see any harm in having a caption in there. The Rambling Man (talk) 06:51, 12 June 2017 (UTC)[reply]
Alright, added. Let me know if there are any other issues to address. --The1337gamer (talk) 06:58, 12 June 2017 (UTC)[reply]
Resolved comments from A Thousand Doors (talk | contribs) 09:39, 15 June 2017 (UTC)[reply]
;Comments by A Thousand Doors

Oppose (for now) Clearly a lot of work has gone into this list, but I'm not convinced that it is FL standard just yet.

  • My main problem is the lead, which quite brief. 1,461 characters wouldn't be enough to meet the DYK requirements, and is far fewer than I would expect to see in a FL. My overall feeling after reading the lead is "Is that it?" Is there really nothing else that you can say about Valve Corporation's games? For example, which games have sold the most? At 9m sales, is Half-Life Valve's best-selling game? Is Half-Life their most successful franchise? Why are Valve's games so critically acclaimed? What about them is so innovative and influential? Is it a particular gameplay mechanic? Is there anything else that you can say about Steam? You spend all of ten words on it. How do their multiplayer games of the 2010s compare to their earlier works? Have they been as successful, commercially or critically?
    I think it's fair to ask for a little more, but I would have expected to see this kind of thing in the main Valve Corporation article. The Rambling Man (talk) 10:54, 12 June 2017 (UTC)[reply]
    Sure, but it's relevant here too, isn't it? I'm not saying that the information I suggested must be included, it's just an example of info that would be well within the article's scope. A Thousand Doors (talk | contribs) 11:11, 12 June 2017 (UTC)[reply]
    That's why I said "I think it's fair to ask for a little more". The Rambling Man (talk) 11:16, 12 June 2017 (UTC)[reply]
  • Strings of citations make the text look cluttered. Can you find one or more reliable sources that say that Valve's games have "received widespread praise for their innovation and influence on the industry", rather than just cherry-picking sources that support your point? Your sources to support the statement that Valve's games "are considered to be among the best PC games and the best first-person shooters of all time" are one list by Rock, Paper, Shotgun and a single issue of PC Gamer.
  • Personally, I think the last sentence of the lead can go – this is a list about Valve's games, so information about comics or animated shorts would be, in my opinion, beyond its scope. But that's just me.
  • For what it's worth, I agree that the lead image always looked better without the caption.
  • I'll come back and see if I have anymore comments soon.

A Thousand Doors (talk | contribs) 10:20, 12 June 2017 (UTC)[reply]

I've expanded the lead a bit, so tell me what you think about it now. However I'm not really sure how you expect me to address some of your comments.
  • At 9m sales, is Half-Life Valve's best-selling game? – No way of knowing. Valve has never published digital sales figures of games sold through Steam.
  • Is Half-Life their most successful franchise? – How are you defining "success" here? If it's by sales, then there is no way of knowing as explained above. If it's by critical reception or legacy then that is really subjective. Opinions vary among sources about what is Valve's best game/franchise.
  • Why are Valve's games so critically acclaimed? What about them is so innovative and influential? Is it a particular gameplay mechanic? – They have many games that play differently and are thus praised for different aspects. I can't write a short reception section about every single game in the lead because at that point it stops being a list. Going in depth about specific mechanics for each game seems like excessive detail for a general list of all their products.
  • Is there anything else that you can say about Steam? – I've explained that it is a digital service that they sell their games through. I don't know what more you want me to say here as it's not a game and thus it really doesn't fall under the scope of this list.
--The1337gamer (talk) 13:00, 12 June 2017 (UTC)[reply]
Resolved comments from DarthBotto
  • My only criticism is that the placement of Counter-Strike Online 2, Counter-Strike Nexon: Zombies and Left 4 Dead: Survivors seem out of place. Not only is the release order of Counter-Strike Online 2 odd, (2008?), but these are licensed games, correct? Do you feel it would be better to have a separated list below the first party games, with The Lab being the last? I'd like to hear your thoughts before anything, however.
@DarthBotto: That Counter-Strike Online 2 2008 date was a typo. Should be 2013. Corrected. Thanks for pointing that out. Yes, those games are licensed but reliable sources still considered them collaborations of Valve even if they are not the primary developer, so I think they should stay on this page. I understand your point for separating them, but I think that would just make things confusing and the presentation of the page awkward. Also an argument could be made for moving other games out of the first party list, like: the original Counter-Strike developed by modders initially, not Valve; Counter-Strike: Condition Zero which was primarily developed outside Valve; Left 4 Dead which was developed primarily by Turtle Rock Studios before takeover; Counter-Strike: Global Offensive was developed primarily by Hidden Path for its initial release. And then it becomes messy and unclear about why we are separating them. I think the current format with one list for released products and one for unreleased products works best for clarity. --The1337gamer (talk) 09:54, 25 June 2017 (UTC)[reply]
  • I have been visiting this page ever since I added Dota 2 to it in 2010-- I have had the privilege of watching it slowly alter, without much to be said. However, I came back after quite some time to see a Featured List nomination and when I see why it would be deserving? I am astounded to see an amazing list article of top quality. I am so pleased to see this list get the attention it deserves. DARTHBOTTO talk•cont 06:07, 25 June 2017 (UTC)[reply]
  • Support: With that, I am endorsing Featured List status for this page. DARTHBOTTO talk•cont 10:32, 25 June 2017 (UTC)[reply]
Resolved comments from Giants2008 (Talk) 21:12, 29 June 2017 (UTC)[reply]
Comments –
  • "Recently, Valve has been investing in virtual reality is currently developing a number of games that make use of the technology." Needs "and" before "is currently". Also, "currently" isn't really needed and just serves to leave an element in the lead that could easily become outdated.
  • "along with the creation Steam". Needs "of" before Steam.
  • All caps in ref 82 need to be fixed. Giants2008 (Talk) 22:13, 28 June 2017 (UTC)[reply]
@Giants2008: Fixed. Thanks for pointing those out. --The1337gamer (talk) 06:23, 29 June 2017 (UTC)[reply]

I gave some pointers on this list back in February, so I've stayed away from this nomination... and now I'm the only closer left available. C'est la vie. Anyways, this has fulfilled all the potential that was there 4 months ago in userspace, and the source review passes, so promoting! Congrats, you're the first editor of a Video game FL since October 2016! --PresN 03:26, 30 June 2017 (UTC)[reply]

  • Closing note: This candidate has been promoted, but there may be a delay in bot processing of the close. Please see WP:FLC/ar, and leave the {{featured list candidates}} template in place on the talk page until the bot goes through.
The above discussion is preserved as an archive. Please do not modify it. No further edits should be made to this page.
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