Wikipedia:Featured list candidates/List of currencies in Europe/archive1

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The following is an archived discussion of a featured list nomination. Please do not modify it. Subsequent comments should be made on the article's talk page or in Wikipedia talk:Featured list candidates. No further edits should be made to this page.

The list was not promoted by SchroCat 19:30, 23 November 2013 [1].

List of currencies in Europe[edit]

List of currencies in Europe (edit | talk | history | protect | delete | links | watch | logs | views)

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Nominator(s): Matty.007 17:38, 10 October 2013 (UTC)[reply]

I am nominating this for featured list because I have been working on this for some time in my sandbox, having felt that a FL would be an interesting place to aspire to, and thought that this article was as good a place as any to start. Thank you in advance for any constructive criticism. Matty.007 17:38, 10 October 2013 (UTC)[reply]

  • The work is nice, but you really need a longer intro. Nergaal (talk) 15:43, 11 October 2013 (UTC)[reply]
checkY Fixed lead size (I hope). Was that your only problem, Nergaal? Thanks, Matty.007 11:16, 12 October 2013 (UTC)[reply]
  • Oppose per intro and really bare URLs. — Crisco 1492 (talk) 04:14, 12 October 2013 (UTC)[reply]
      • OK, I'll fix the intro in a few hours. Crisco 1492, by bare URLs, are you referring to the bank websites? Thanks, Matty.007 08:30, 12 October 2013 (UTC)[reply]
        • The references are also rather bare (publisher? date published? accessdate?) — Crisco 1492 (talk) 11:24, 12 October 2013 (UTC)[reply]
          • There isn't always that much information on the pages. Do the banks need to have the URLs covered? Thanks, Matty.007 11:54, 12 October 2013 (UTC)[reply]
            • Then not for all of them. But some of those BBC sources (random example) have more. The URL dates this to 2001, for instance. — Crisco 1492 (talk) 12:18, 12 October 2013 (UTC)[reply]
              • I fixed the references that I could see, I hadn't thought of getting the dates from the URLs, so thank you for the idea. Is it OK now? Matty.007 13:34, 12 October 2013 (UTC)[reply]
                • Enough for me to strike my oppose, although the lede could use some development. It needs to let us know important aspects of the topic (I'm shocked that the Euro isn't even mentioned in the lede right now, for example). Compare such featured lists as List of works by Amir Hamzah, in which the works are put in context, allowing for the list to be used for general reference as well. — Crisco 1492 (talk) 13:41, 12 October 2013 (UTC)[reply]
                  • I wasn't sure what to put in the lede, seeing as the only other FL which is currency related is 7 years old, and policies have moved on. Do you think that describing what currency is in more detail would be OK? Thanks, Matty.007 13:47, 12 October 2013 (UTC)[reply]
                    • Most commonly used currency, shift towards Euro, most dominant non-Euro currencies, perhaps? — Crisco 1492 (talk) 13:55, 12 October 2013 (UTC)[reply]
                      • Thanks, that's useful to know. I will start trying to integrate it into the article (although to me, the section on the Euro at the bottom covers some of that). Thanks, Matty.007 13:56, 12 October 2013 (UTC)[reply]
                        • Quite a big expansion of the lead, is that OK now? Thanks, Matty.007 15:08, 12 October 2013 (UTC)[reply]
                          • Looks a bit better. Will have to have some restructuring and copyediting, but I can't give feedback on that until tomorrow (already rather late here) — Crisco 1492 (talk) 15:21, 12 October 2013 (UTC)[reply]
                            • After that, is it all OK? Thanks, Matty.007 15:41, 12 October 2013 (UTC)[reply]
                              • We'll see.

Oppose from Crisco 1492

  • Are any of these units of currency free to use image-wise?

checkY: Euro image moved to top

  • This list of currencies in Europe is a complete list of all de facto present currencies in Europe, but an incomplete list of the preceding currency, and the currency introduction dates. - We should not start with "this is a list". We know it's a list. Go straight to the subject. "There are (number) currencies currently used in Europe."

checkY: wording fixed

  • The UN is not an observer, the Vatican is. Check the grammar.

checkY: wording fixed

  • What's the point of having the information about the UN anyways?

Defining the terms of the list, and a bit of background information

  • Overall the prose is a big mess and looks like it needs a complete overhaul. — Crisco 1492 (talk) 01:51, 13 October 2013 (UTC)[reply]

I tried to fix the order a little. Is the article OK now, or is there something else? Thanks, Matty.007 10:38, 13 October 2013 (UTC)[reply]

    • You still have a "this list", the ISO code seems to have no connection to anything, etc. My oppose stands. — Crisco 1492 (talk) 10:51, 13 October 2013 (UTC)[reply]
      • Paragraph removed, re-phrased that sentence. Matty.007 11:01, 13 October 2013 (UTC)[reply]
        • Crisco 1492 So that I know what I'm dealing with, is the sentence and the ISO paragraph OK? And by overhaul of text, is that just the intro? Thanks, Matty.007 16:43, 17 October 2013 (UTC)[reply]

Comments from Dudley Miles

  • To deal with the bare urls you could look at Template:Cite web. Alternatively, show them as [http://www.bankofalbania.org/ Bank of Albania] which shows as Bank of Albania.
    • checkYI wasn't sure whether to leave them, or format them as you said, but I have changed the format
  • It is not strictly correct that any country which enters the European Union (EU) is expected to join the Euro. A country which joins the EU is required to join eventually when it meets the critieria. It is worth mentioning that Sweden has not yet joined although it has not opted out.
    • I will look into this
      • Done
  • The dates for the pound sterling are wrong. The UK did not adopt the pound in 1971 - it just adopted a decimal division of the pound. The date of 1914 for the 'old' pound also looks odd. It is based on a commercial website and the date is not given in any other source I can find. The pound as a unit of account goes back to Anglo-Saxon times. According to my 1973 Encyclopedia Britannica, the main coin in the 18th century was the gold guinea, but in the nineteenth it was the sovereign and half-sovereign. I do not think there is any fixed date when the pound was introduced which can be cited, and perhaps other editors can suggest the best way to deal with this.
    • I will look into this
      • Fixed
  • The opinion of the Telegraph that it is "foolish" for Latvia to adopt the Euro is POV.
    • ☒NThat is also the view of the PM, but I gave the statistic that they based that on.
      • checkY: someone removed it
  • A picture of each coin would be more relevant than the ISO code. Dudley Miles (talk) 19:57, 14 October 2013 (UTC)[reply]
    • ☒NI agree with Crisco here, the page would also take ages to load.
    • I will probably work on this in a few days, due to limited editing activity (thanks for the points: there is not time limit, is there?). Thanks, Matty.007 20:06, 14 October 2013 (UTC)[reply]
      • One to two months. A lot of the coins are copyrighted, so I don't think you should try using pictures in the table (free stuff will not be available for many of them). — Crisco 1492 (talk) 00:24, 15 October 2013 (UTC)[reply]
        • Added replies to Dudley Miles (Crisco: did you see my reply?). Thanks, Matty.007 19:12, 15 October 2013 (UTC)[reply]


Quick/Initial Comments from Godot13-

  • Currency sign column does not sort following an organizing principle. Perhaps it would be better to include the currency sign in the present currency column following the name of the currency.
    • checkY You have not done this. You have done part of this.
  • I don’t think ISO codes are necessary (or even helpful).
    • I think that they are used in trading of currencies, and are a useful inclusion
      • When three active reviewers (me,Crisco 1492, and Dudley Miles) question the relevance of the ISO codes for this list, you might want to take that into consideration...
        • Removed (against my best wishes, but it is three to one)
  • All the bank websites do exist in English, but are not linked to the English version (I fixed this, if the English version site provided a translation of the bank title it was used, otherwise the native-language title was used). All links should now be to English-language versions of the websites.
    • Thanks
  • Country bank column does not need to be sortable (it can rely on the Country sort to avoid using hidden key for each of the bank names).
    • checkY
  • Map colors are confusing: blue (traditionally representing water) is used to represent land.
    • I didn't make the map, so unfortunately have no idea how to change the colours
      • Also, most (if not all) of the 'Country and the euro' articles use the image
        • Not trying to be difficult, but I still find the color scheme confusing.
          • Not much I can do about this though
  • More to follow...-Godot13 (talk) 23:57, 16 October 2013 (UTC)[reply]
  • Previous currency column – the following are missing currency and date (or date only): Albania, Azerbaijan (date only), Bulgaria, Denmark (date only), Kazakhstan (date only), Lichtenstein (date only), Monaco, Montenegro (date only), Norway, Poland, San Marino (date only), Sweden (date only), Turkey (date only), Ukraine (date only).
    • I left out things where there weren't reliable sources backing things up
      • This creates issue with consistency of data. Have you tried Google Books for World Paper Money Catalogs?
  • I like the idea of adding an image column to illustrate a specimen from either the introduction year, or of the previous currency (if the it would fill at least 75% of the cells in such a column). Just a personal opinion, not a requirement.-Godot13 (talk) 00:12, 17 October 2013 (UTC)[reply]
    • The idea was raised above, but see Crisco's (and my) responses. I have tried to address your concerns. Did I do it adequately? Thanks, Matty.007 16:12, 17 October 2013 (UTC)[reply]
      • You have started to address the issues. With great respect for Crisco, I must disagree about loading time if images were included. I have a current FLC on Fractional Currency with images for each note and there is no issue with load time-Godot13 (talk) 19:54, 17 October 2013 (UTC)[reply]
        • I never said anything about load times. Please do not put words in my mouth. I said a lot of the currencies will not be public domain or freely licensed, so there will be a lot of holes. — Crisco 1492 (talk) 22:36, 17 October 2013 (UTC)[reply]
My apologies, I must have misinterpreted what was said a few lines above. I did not mean to put words in your mouth.-Godot13 (talk) 23:59, 17 October 2013 (UTC)[reply]
Sorry, that was me who made that point. Matty.007 17:57, 18 October 2013 (UTC)[reply]
I think I will leave images out unless there is more opinion for the inclusion; it is two to one at present
  • I have started going through the references and realize there may be some issues with the quality and reliability of "Oanda". While I have only just started going through the table in detail (re: the missing data I referred to above), for example:
The Albanian Lek - It was first introduced in 1926 (not 1991). Granted there have been 3 issues, but the 3rd issue was introduced in 1995.
The Austrian Schilling - First schilling (1925-1938), then the German Reichsmark during WWII, then the Second schilling (1945-1999). I don't know if Austria printing anything other than the Schilling, but if you put 1945 for the introduction date of the schilling, you need to state it was the second schilling, and why.
Both Azerbaijan and Belarus has a First and Second Manat and Ruble (respectively)...
Bosnia and Herzegovina – Convertible Mark established by agreement in 1995 but did not replace the existing currency until 1998...
I removed dates, which is the only area in which Oanda weren't so good. Matty.007
This is where I'm stopping for now. I will go through the rest of the table. I'm very sorry, but for now, unfortunately, I have to Temporarily Oppose based on a lack of detail and possible factual inaccuracies, which I am willing to collaborate to resolve.-Godot13 (talk) 00:06, 24 October 2013 (UTC)[reply]
Having a look, I don't think that they do past currencies, so I have only five gaps (which personally I think is acceptable). Are you willing to review your !vote, or have I addressed the issues unsatisfactorily? Thanks, Matty.007 17:22, 30 October 2013 (UTC)[reply]
Will re-review this weekend.-Godot13 (talk) 19:37, 31 October 2013 (UTC)[reply]
  • I have removed the temporary oppose based on the changes that have been made since I left that comment. The second reference I provided above covers currency from 1368 to 1960

Minor point

  • There is no need to say twice that the 2 Euro coin is pictured top right. Dudley Miles (talk) 16:36, 17 October 2013 (UTC)[reply]

I have fixed some more issues, but Crisco 1492; I am not sure that you have seen my comment above? Thanks, Matty.007 17:27, 23 October 2013 (UTC)[reply]

  • I've seen. Why do you need a section on Euro all on its own? Wouldn't a map of the currencies used in Europe work better? — Crisco 1492 (talk) 21:31, 23 October 2013 (UTC)[reply]
    • How would that work? A colour code? I think that the current map adequately illustrates the point made in the above paragraphs. I moved the Euro section into the intro. Matty.007
  • I still do not think the dates for the UK are right. It is now given as 1849, but this was just when the florin was introduced. I have found an academic source at [2] which states that the pound coin was first struck in 1489, and this seems to me the best date. Dudley Miles (talk) 23:01, 23 October 2013 (UTC)[reply]
Great Britain paper 1694 and coin (shilling and sovereign) 1489.
I think the main coin before 1489 was the penny, but I cannot find a good source for this. Dudley Miles (talk) 09:43, 24 October 2013 (UTC)[reply]
OK, I will change it if a source is found
I removed dates per suggestion below, so this is now not relevant. Matty.007

*Question - Hi, is the general consensus that this is not suitable for FL yet; and cannot be fixed quickly; or is it possible for me to get some support !votes as well? Thanks, Matty.007 16:02, 24 October 2013 (UTC)[reply]

Comments
  • First, I'm not entirely sure why there should be a separate article from the FL List of circulating currencies for this, but you've done a good job and that article could use some improvement (promoted back in 2006) so I'll let it slide for now.
    • I saw that it was a poor standard, and though about doing one for each continent. Matty.007
  • That list includes the names of fractional units, which should be included here as well.
    • Will I need to reference it? Thanks, Matty.007
      • Done, but unreferenced per your comment about the country banks backing up currencies
  • I know citations are good, but you don't really need one for the number of countries in Europe.
  • The first paragraph seems choppy, with the third sentence not connecting to the first two.
    • Attempted fix. Matty.007
      • Yeah, I like that better.
  • You can simply say that the Euro is used by 332 million people; the source doesn't need to be included in text, and "said to be used" is unnecessary.
  • The third paragrah isn't bad, but isn't about Europe's currencies in general. There should be more overview to balance it out.
  • Again I know shouldn't be complaining about too many sources, but I feel that they're cluttering up the table, and particularly in the Present currency column it shouldn't just link to Xe or a forex site. The link to the Bank site will have it covered, and this isn't material that will be challenged by anyone. The Euro symbol doesn't really need a [13] footnote next to it every time either.
    • Euro ref removed. So I should remove all referencing to present currency? Matty.007
    • OK. Does the same go for the introduction date? Matty.007
      • If you want. Dates are more challengeable material; just no need to use the same citation for both columns either. Maybe consider a separate source column. Reywas92Talk 16:14, 28 October 2013 (UTC)[reply]
        • OK, given that Godot13 found that Oanda may not be a reliable source, I have removed the dates. Matty.007
  • Good work though! Reywas92Talk 15:10, 28 October 2013 (UTC)[reply]
  • Liechtenstein has the former currency in the symbol box.

Further comments I think you are nearly there - just a few points which still need fixing.

  • There is a limit of 4 paragraphs of introduction for FLs, but you have 6. You could fix this by merging 2 and 5, which are on the same subject, and deleting para 6, which is on a topical matter which does not really belong in the list. The comment on Sweden could be shortened to something like "Sweden has not joined the Euro, although it has not formally opted out, but it has not yet become a member of ERM II, which is one of the preconditions for joining the Euro."
  • Note 11 is mis-spelled and it is not really relevant as it is about Denmark, not Sweden.
    • Sorry, I don't understand. Reference 11? Matty.007
      • Yes. "11. ^ "ERM II". Minestary of Finance. 11 November 2011. Retrieved 17 October 2013." It is a ref on Sweden but the website is the Danish ministry. Dudley Miles (talk) 17:12, 28 October 2013 (UTC)[reply]
        • Oh, that is ERM ii, which got me confused. I backs up the sentence at the very bottom. Matty.007
          • And I was previewing it, which is why it wasn't #11 for me. Matty.007
  • UK dates are still wrong. There is no correct solution, but you could use the 1489 date I suggested above unless you can find a better one. Dudley Miles (talk) 16:26, 28 October 2013 (UTC)[reply]
Resolved comments from The Rambling Man (talk) 16:53, 15 December 2013 (UTC)[reply]
Oppose
  • "all of which are members of the United Nations" this reads as if it applies to the currencies not the countries.
  • All linked elements in a table should be linked every time if the table is sortable.
  • Why aren't all sub-units linked, e.g. Öre?
  • What are blanks meant to represent in Previous currency column?
  • Why is First Ruble so capitalised?
  • "Oesterreichische Nationalbank" surely "Austrian National Bank" unless you're going to use official native names for all banks.
    • That is what the banks call themselves in English, e.g. if they call themselves the 'National Bank of Belgium' in the English site, then that's what they're down as. If they call themselves 'Danmarks Nationalbank', then that is what they are called. Matty.007
  • Remove SHOUTING from ref titles.
    • I copied and pasted the titles (although I fixed the one shouting). Matty.007
  • Check ref titles for WP:DASH compliance.
    • Sorry, I didn't quite understand that. So refs with '-' in them need {{spaced ndash}}? Thanks, Matty.007
      • Attempted fix, sorry if wrong. Matty.007
  • Table does not comply with MOS:DTT for row and col scopes.
    • I have asked Rambling Man on his talk; I have partially fixed this. Thanks, Matty.007
      • You could easily add row scopes in front of the name of each country. The Rambling Man (talk) 18:29, 3 November 2013 (UTC)[reply]

The Rambling Man (talk) 11:28, 31 October 2013 (UTC)[reply]


Comments by Arsenikk (talk)

  • Quite frankly I don't see what this article offers which isn't or could not easily be included in List of circulating currencies.
    • A splitting into continent size chunks of a large list. Matty.007
  • Any reason currency codes are left out? It would be a very useful thing to include.
  • I find it odd that the article provides external links to the national banks rather than a wikilink to out article on them.
    • I think external links are OK; they provide a use for the article. Matty.007
      • I agree that they look odd as those grim in-line links. The Rambling Man (talk) 18:32, 3 November 2013 (UTC)[reply]
        • OK, that's two to one. I will change this in a few days if there are no comments otherwise. Matty.007
  • Any reason Norwegian speciedaler is not listed as a former currency of Norway?
    • Because I couldn't find any sources which said this. (I have found one, and added the info.). Matty.007
  • "Øre" is spelled "Öre" in Swedish.
  • Avoid contractions, such as "doesn’t".

Arsenikk (talk) 13:58, 3 November 2013 (UTC)[reply]

  • Why are the fractional units capitalized? Nergaal (talk) 10:11, 12 November 2013 (UTC)[reply]
    • I thought that they needed to be. Do they not need to be? Thanks, Matty.007 19:22, 12 November 2013 (UTC)[reply]
  • I pointed out earlier that citation 5 on Sweden is both on the wrong country (Denmark) and mis-spelled, but this has not been corrected. I would suggest deleting it. Also "but in addition, Sweden does not use the Euro, but Sweden has not yet met the ERM II, the Exchange Rate Mechanism, which has the result of them not using the Euro." is confusing. ERM is just one of the technical hoops Sweden would have to go through if it decided to join. I think all you need is something like "Sweden has also not adopted the Euro, although unlike Denmark and the UK it has not formally opted out." Dudley Miles (talk) 20:18, 12 November 2013 (UTC)[reply]
    • Sorry, I missed that bit. Now fixed, and attempted sentence fixed. Matty.007 20:23, 12 November 2013 (UTC)[reply]
Resolved comments from The Rambling Man (talk) 21:07, 27 December 2013 (UTC)[reply]
Additional comments
  • Haléř, when googled, links to Heller (money) which could be used as it does discuss the Czech currency unit in passing. I would "czech" the others.... (my bad).
  • What is that odd line in the table "Recongnised countries in Europe"? If that's a note to the reader, then make it a note, not an odd row with a single column, badly formatted...
  • "Icelandic króna:first króna" vs "Icelandic króna: second króna" consistent spacing post-colon please.
  • Still struggling to understand what N/A means for previous currency when "None" exists as well. Are these "Not applicable" referenced?
    • N/A refers to when no RS could be found to back up the currency, none means that we are definite that it never existed. Matty.007
  • Sortable table, so link every linked item each time (e.g. Deutsche Mark).
  • "on 2007-12-19." looks like everywhere else you stick to dmy date format, be consistent.
  • Non-English references should state which language in which they are presented, e.g. ref 56.
  • Is it "Xe" or "Xe"?
    • Not sure. I put 'Xe' for all, but ProveIt GT seems to have italicised some, and not other things. Matty.007
  • What would make a website like "http://wwp.greenwichmeantime.com/time-zone/europe/liechtenstein/currency/" meet our WP:RS guidelines?
    • The site uses specialists, such as the US Time Agency, Royal Greenwich Observatory, HM Navy, etc.. Matty.007
  • The Telegraph article has a publication date included so should be included.
    • I got my formatting in a muddle, now fixed. Matty.007
  • You link Royal Mint as if it's a work not a publisher, and then don't link The Telegraph, what's the linking strategy for publishers and works in the references? No matter what, it should be consistent.

The Rambling Man (talk) 16:53, 15 December 2013 (UTC)[reply]

The above discussion is preserved as an archive. Please do not modify it. No further edits should be made to this page.
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