Wikipedia:Featured list candidates/List of defunct and relocated National Hockey League teams/archive1

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The following is an archived discussion of a featured list nomination. Please do not modify it. Subsequent comments should be made on the article's talk page or in Wikipedia talk:Featured list candidates. No further edits should be made to this page.

The list was promoted by Dabomb87 21:32, 9 June 2011 [1].

List of defunct and relocated National Hockey League teams[edit]

List of defunct and relocated National Hockey League teams (edit | talk | history | protect | delete | links | watch | logs | views)

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Nominator(s): --K.Annoyomous (talk) 20:26, 5 May 2011 (UTC)[reply]

Ahh, glad to be back on FLC. During April, I noticed how I haven't had an FLC nomination since October, which made me want to make an FL. I believe this list meets WP:FL?, and was why I nominated this. There may be some grammar mistakes, so just point them out or DIY if you like. Thanks! --K.Annoyomous (talk) 20:26, 5 May 2011 (UTC)[reply]


Couple of quick drive-by comments: you have at least two uses of the verb "to defunct", which, in British English at least, does not exist, it should be "to become defunct" - I haven't changed this myself in case it is a legitimate usage in American English. Oh, and the key shows yellow colour and an asterisk for the active teams, but the asterisk is not used in the table -- ChrisTheDude (talk) 18:51, 6 May 2011 (UTC)[reply]

I've searched the word defunct online, and looking at most of the websites, they do say "to become defunct", so I fixed the usage, plus I added asterisks in the table. --K.Annoyomous (talk) 00:34, 7 May 2011 (UTC)[reply]
Resolved comments from Arsenikk (talk) 22:17, 19 May 2011 (UTC)[reply]
;Comments:
  • Statements like "The Barons are the only NHL franchise to merge operations with another franchise." and the entire last paragraph of the lead lack references. Also the current number of teams needs a reference (the statement that NHL is a professional hockey league is about the only fact that can be left unreferenced). Generally, the entire lead is underreferenced.
The Barons sentence is referenced from NHL history via the book references on the References section. The last paragraph is partly referenced from the "Team" link from the NHL. The locations of former franchises is purely referenced from the whole history of the NHL, also via the books. --K.Annoyomous (talk) 00:53, 9 May 2011 (UTC)[reply]
If parts of the lead are referenced from a particular page, it would be nice if this was noted with a inline reference. Arsenikk (talk) 22:32, 14 May 2011 (UTC)[reply]
Done. --K.Annoyomous (talk) 02:04, 16 May 2011 (UTC)[reply]
  • Ref 3 says "Is the oldest trophy competed for by professional athletes" while the article says "the oldest professional sports trophy in North America". The rest of the sentence also needs a ref.
Fixed. --K.Annoyomous (talk) 00:53, 9 May 2011 (UTC)[reply]
  • The third paragraph has two refs, but these pages of the book talk about completely different issues than that paragraph, similarly ref 8
Funny how they were all referenced by the wrong book. Haha. My apologies. Fixed. --K.Annoyomous (talk) 00:53, 9 May 2011 (UTC)[reply]
  • The table needs an introduction and a key (preferably in prose form). While tooltips are nice add-ons, they cannot replace a written explanation. Articles are used in many different ways, including on paper and instances where moving a mouse over an area is not possible or tedious. It is also a lot more time-consuming to move a mouse over multiple points than to read straight prose.
Most featured lists have their lead also as their prose. I prefer it to stay like that just because it gives a better flow to the lead, plus lists have small proses, so having everything altogether IMO is better. This list is my first list where I used Template:abbr, so I thought I'd give it a try. Changed it to key form. --K.Annoyomous (talk) 00:53, 9 May 2011 (UTC)[reply]
Perhaps you slightly misunderstood me, but the key is fine now. Arsenikk (talk) 22:32, 14 May 2011 (UTC)[reply]
  • Center-alignment, particularly of text, makes a table significantly harder to read. The reader's eye is forced to re-align for every line, and it is much more difficult to get an overview of multiple rows.
I actually think center-aligning makes the table easier to read, because there are spaces to the left and the right of the word/phrase. I'd prefer to keep it the same. --K.Annoyomous (talk) 00:53, 9 May 2011 (UTC)[reply]
I completely disagree on this issue; after searching far and wide in professionally set books and publications, I still haven't seen any tables set with center-aligned text. Center-alignment can work for text where all cells have the same length, for instance it looks fine in the Win% column or for years, but causes problems in text and varied-length digit cells. As stated above, the center-aligning causes unnecessary "reading power" to be used aligning the eyes rather than reading, which slows down the process and moves efforts away from comprehending the contents. I will leave the issue for now, because a large number, particularly of sports-related FLs follow this mishap, but it is still detrimental for readability. Arsenikk (talk) 22:32, 14 May 2011 (UTC)[reply]
I made the list to align left, and after looking at it, I truly think centre-aligning the text is more visually appealing, and in no way makes me use my eyes more. I think some people like the text to align left, while others like it centred. Personal preference I believe. --K.Annoyomous (talk) 02:04, 16 May 2011 (UTC)[reply]
  • Despite the huge space occupied by the map, it is nearly impossible to read the names of the teams. If a larger font was used, it would make it much more user-friendly.
Made the font bigger to 11px. --K.Annoyomous (talk) 00:53, 9 May 2011 (UTC)[reply]
Much easier to read. Arsenikk (talk) 22:32, 14 May 2011 (UTC)[reply]
  • Tables are not subject to the ban on repeated links, particularly in sortable tables. Linked terms, such as 'Great Depression' should therefore be re-linked for every row.
Done. --K.Annoyomous (talk) 00:53, 9 May 2011 (UTC)"[reply]
  • The Americans are referred to both as 'Brooklyn' and 'New York'.
Stated renaming's with notes. --K.Annoyomous (talk) 00:53, 9 May 2011 (UTC)[reply]
Fixed. --K.Annoyomous (talk) 00:53, 9 May 2011 (UTC)[reply]
  • The layout within the references section is confusing. Of the top five unnumbered refs, the bottom three are fine, but what do the top two links actually reference in the article, or are they simply external links?
The first one references all the statistics on the table, while the second one, which I just realized, only references the location of current franchises. --K.Annoyomous (talk) 00:53, 9 May 2011 (UTC)[reply]

Arsenikk (talk) 08:31, 8 May 2011 (UTC)[reply]

Resolved comments from The Rambling Man (talk) 21:40, 13 May 2011 (UTC)[reply]
Comments
  • Don't think the Calder lead image has enough resolution to meet the size you're forcing it to. Looks blocky and JPEGy to me.
This is because it was edited. The image resolution is 260px, while the thumbnail is 220px. --K.Annoyomous (talk) 04:34, 10 May 2011 (UTC)[reply]
So make the lead image smaller so I can't see the blockiness. The Rambling Man (talk) 17:11, 11 May 2011 (UTC)[reply]
Changed the lead image. I like the lead images to be thumbnail length, so changing the lead image was a better choice for me. Hopefully, the Bleacher Report is a reliable source. --K.Annoyomous (talk) 21:03, 11 May 2011 (UTC)[reply]
  • "The NHL was .." Could probably just say "It was founded..."
Done. --K.Annoyomous (talk) 04:34, 10 May 2011 (UTC)[reply]
  • "There have been 18 defunct ..." you mean "There are 18 ..."? And is it worth quantifying "relocated"? For instance, in English football, clubs relocate from stadium to stadium, usually only a mile or two, of course there are exceptions (e.g. MK Dons) but the concept to Brits is very odd.
The relocations were included before I revamped the article, so I decided to keep it. I think readers would like to see relocated teams also. --K.Annoyomous (talk) 04:34, 10 May 2011 (UTC)[reply]
Just keen for you to explain the extent of the relocations. The Rambling Man (talk) 17:11, 11 May 2011 (UTC)[reply]
I don't get what you are trying to say... --K.Annoyomous (talk) 21:03, 11 May 2011 (UTC)[reply]
How far did they relocate? The Rambling Man (talk) 07:03, 12 May 2011 (UTC)[reply]
I added a note above the table to tell readers what a considered a relocation. Telling readers how far the relocation was feels like a random thing to do, and isn't really important, so I decided not to include those statistics. --K.Annoyomous (talk) 22:25, 12 May 2011 (UTC)[reply]
  • Two dab pages (Quakers, Barons, in the lead).
Fixed. --K.Annoyomous (talk) 04:34, 10 May 2011 (UTC)[reply]
  • Would be better if the map was clickable, it's not particular accessible in my opinion.
I don't have the time to do that, so it would be nice if you would request it for me. :) --K.Annoyomous (talk) 04:34, 10 May 2011 (UTC)[reply]
I don't have time at all and it isn't really my problem. I'm not even sure I know what you mean by "request it for me". The point is, a map of that size really should be clickable. The Rambling Man (talk) 17:11, 11 May 2011 (UTC)[reply]
User:Maxim was very kind enough to make the image clickable, so I truly thank him for that. Hopefully he can see this. --K.Annoyomous (talk) 21:03, 11 May 2011 (UTC)[reply]

The Rambling Man (talk) 15:55, 9 May 2011 (UTC)[reply]

hidden comments
{{{2}}}
  • Object. I'm checking from mostly a hockey perspective, and I don't feel the article is complete. I think that possible to write a section about the history of franchise troubles in the NHL. There's more stuff on this in the History of the National Hockey League articles. For example, the Wanderers didn't fold just because there weren't enough players... it was triggered by their arena burning down (and their owner had a history of his arenas burning down, too). The Hamilton Tigers part implies the league responded to a strike by removing the franchise (which wasn't exactly like that). You should look through the series of the articles on NHL history... the 67-92 mentions how St Louis was almost moved to Saskatoon. These are just examples of what could be added: other, broader, ideas would be the money troubles that teams had, commentary on the Original Six era... Finally, there's nothing about recent events (troubles for Phoenix and Atlanta). I think that mentioning them would make the article more comprehensive. Maxim(talk) 21:50, 17 May 2011 (UTC)[reply]
For the Reasons column on the table, I only listed the main reason because it is a table, and I don't think having a prose in a table is good for the table. I believe that the history of franchise troubles should be on the History of organizational changes in the NHL article, since having a huge prose for the history would make the list into a true article. I renamed the column into "Main reason for disbandment/relocation" so that readers can interpret that as there are more reasons for the relocation. Readers can read more about the potential NHL expansions at the Potential NHL expansion article. --K.Annoyomous (talk) 22:43, 17 May 2011 (UTC)[reply]
That works for me. Just make sure to keep a close eye on the article given this Winnipeg Thrashers speculation. Maxim(talk) 23:19, 25 May 2011 (UTC)[reply]
Resolved comments from Giants2008 (27 and counting) 23:09, 25 May 2011 (UTC)[reply]
Comments –
  • "During their time in the NHL, the Senators and Maroon have both won the Stanley Cup championship multiple times". First, Maroon should be including an s at the end. Second, this implies that they're both still in the league; to fix this, remove "have".
Done. --K.Annoyomous (talk) 00:06, 19 May 2011 (UTC)[reply]
  • Remove hyphen in "current-Ottawa Senators" toward the end of the lead?
Done. --K.Annoyomous (talk) 00:06, 19 May 2011 (UTC)[reply]
  • Photo caption in the lead needs a period at the end.
Done. --K.Annoyomous (talk) 00:06, 19 May 2011 (UTC)[reply]
  • Key: In the PA explanation, make the spacing after the slash consistent (regarding whether there is a space or not).
Don't really know what you mean. That's the only slash in the article... --K.Annoyomous (talk) 00:06, 19 May 2011 (UTC)[reply]
What I mean is that the slash there is unspaced on one side and spaced on the other. It should either be fully spaced or fully unspaced, shouldn't it? Not sure what MoS dictates for slashes, to be honest. Giants2008 (27 and counting) 23:09, 25 May 2011 (UTC)[reply]
I've always done no space before and a space after. Added a space before. --K.Annoyomous (talk) 23:18, 25 May 2011 (UTC)[reply]
  • Table: Some notes have periods and some don't, even for notes similar in nature. Again, there should be some consistency.
Done. --K.Annoyomous (talk) 00:06, 19 May 2011 (UTC)[reply]
  • California Golden Seals: "Cleveland is the hometown of minority owners George Gund". And? There's only one owner given.

Fixed. --K.Annoyomous (talk)

  • Note e: Remove "the" before MLB.
I think it flows better when it's "the MLB". I'm pretty sure it's correct grammar. --K.Annoyomous (talk) 00:06, 19 May 2011 (UTC)[reply]
I've never personally seen any sportswriters refer to it as "the MLB". Also, note a doesn't make any sense if it's correct grammar. That says "the Pittsburgh Pirates of Major League Baseball", which I think is correct. It wouldn't be called "the Major League Baseball", and MLB is just an abbreviation. Giants2008 (27 and counting) 23:09, 25 May 2011 (UTC)[reply]
I know for sure that they say the NHL and the NBA, which is why I thought it was the MLB. Fixed. --K.Annoyomous (talk) 23:18, 25 May 2011 (UTC)[reply]
  • Numerous references from newspapers and magazines need publishers italicized.
I really don't know what's the difference between work and publisher, but I changed publisher to work on all newspapers and magazines. --K.Annoyomous (talk) 00:06, 19 May 2011 (UTC)[reply]
  • If page numbers are available for refs 14 and 26, they would be nice.
They aren't available. --K.Annoyomous (talk) 00:06, 19 May 2011 (UTC)[reply]
I got the source from the FA Calgary Flames. Changed reference. --K.Annoyomous (talk) 00:06, 19 May 2011 (UTC)[reply]

Giants2008 (27 and counting) 21:27, 18 May 2011 (UTC)[reply]

Resolved comments from WFC
Comments from WFCforLife

A few small things:

  • The use of yellow (excellent choice, by the way) is confusing. The colour dominates the bottom half of the table, and the asterisks are not where they should be. As an example, the Minnesota North Stars have the asterisk, even though Dallas are the current franchise. Perhaps a better solution would be to only use colour and asterisks in the specific cells of the current franchises?
I like that idea. Done. --K.Annoyomous (talk) 03:01, 5 June 2011 (UTC)[reply]
  • In the third paragraph "franchise relocations" should be singular.
Fixed. --K.Annoyomous (talk) 03:01, 5 June 2011 (UTC)[reply]
  • In the key, OT should be explained.
Done. --K.Annoyomous (talk) 03:01, 5 June 2011 (UTC)[reply]
  • The information between refs 16 and 17 isn't all covered by ref 17. If the first bit is covered by 16, the ref should be moved to make this clearer.
The specified information is referenced by the main reference "Team Index". --K.Annoyomous (talk) 03:01, 5 June 2011 (UTC)[reply]
  • The map is an excellent touch.
Would like to thank User:Maxim again for making the map clickable! --K.Annoyomous (talk) 03:01, 5 June 2011 (UTC)[reply]

That'll do for now. Regards, —WFC— 22:37, 4 June 2011 (UTC)[reply]

Support. Although if the relocation of the Thrashers isn't going to be added to the table until a decision is taken, note h can presumably be removed. —WFC— 14:54, 7 June 2011 (UTC)[reply]

Done. --K.Annoyomous (talk) 16:26, 7 June 2011 (UTC)[reply]


The above discussion is preserved as an archive. Please do not modify it. No further edits should be made to this page.
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