Wikipedia:Featured list candidates/List of heads of governments of special municipalities, counties and provincial cities in Taiwan/archive1
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- The following is an archived discussion of a featured list nomination. Please do not modify it. Subsequent comments should be made on the article's talk page or in Wikipedia talk:Featured list candidates. No further edits should be made to this page.
The list was withdrawn by SchroCat 07:35, 17 May 2015 [1].
List of heads of governments of special municipalities, counties and provincial cities in Taiwan[edit]
List of heads of governments of special municipalities, counties and provincial cities in Taiwan (edit | talk | history | protect | delete | links | watch | logs | views)
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I am nominating this for featured list because I believe it already meets the featured list criteria and is written with the list of current Indian chief ministers as a model. I am the main contributor to this list as well as its corresponding Chinese Wikipedia article, also undergoing FL candidacy. Feel free to list your opinions on this nomination page and I will gladly try my best to address all of them. HYH.124 (talk) 14:39, 10 May 2015 (UTC)[reply]
- Comment: The length of this article's title is too long. Not concise at all. How about simply List of mayors and magistrates in the Republic of China? Hwy43 (talk) 01:38, 11 May 2015 (UTC)[reply]
- Comment I agree the name should be shortened. It's slightly confusing to use Republic of China instead of Taiwan in the title, as Taiwan is used in the main wiki page. Mentioning that the Republic of China is the official name can be done in the first sentence of the article? Mattximus (talk) 03:24, 11 May 2015 (UTC)[reply]
- @Hwy43 and Mattximus: I moved it to a shorter and more concise name. As for the use of "Taiwan" as part of the article name, consensus among the Wikipedia community is required, as the official name is not only accurate, precise and that it is neutral. There are two provinces (namely Taiwan Province and Fujian Province) in the Republic of China, but Taiwan is a province itself. Everyone is welcome to continue discussing on the article name length issue. HYH.124 (talk) 05:20, 11 May 2015 (UTC)[reply]
- Why is there a need for "current" in this article title (or the other FLs with the same)? It is superfluous disambiguation. By default, the scope of List of heads of local governments in the Republic of China should only be "current" heads anyway. The only time this disambiguation should be considered is if there was a List of former heads of local governments in the Republic of China, and I would argue that should be a disambiguated child of the main undisambiguated article, List of heads of local governments in the Republic of China. See List of municipalities of Norway and List of former municipalities of Norway. I also still think "heads of local governments" is too wordy compared to "mayors and magistrates". As you said here, "local" may be vague, so using "mayors and magistrates" would address that. Hwy43 (talk) 07:56, 11 May 2015 (UTC)[reply]
- Taiwanese Wikipedian User:Wildcursive raised his concern that the term "local" may be vague, which was why I moved to a more accurate title, but English and Chinese Wikipedias are different; English Wikipedia asks for conciseness, and I already think that the name I moved to is very accurate and precise already. Currently, I personally think that "local government" is also already correct because only the administrative divisions which I mentioned are "local governments" and there are no other sub-divisions with "governments". (I just need to have a lead that "defines the scope and inclusion criteria" as in the FL criteria). However, "mayors and magistrates" is definitely, absolutely incorrect. Anyone with a grasp of the Chinese language would know that "mayor" is a direct translation for the administrative head of a city. There are cities controlled by a county in the Republic of China, apart from special municipalities and provincial cities. I'll make a compromise here. I can't move the page, and you may request an administrator to move the page to List of heads of local governments in the Republic of China. HYH.124 (talk) 10:58, 11 May 2015 (UTC)[reply]
- I appreciate there may be differences between Wikipedias of different languages, but I would like to explore this a little further before moving onto other details within the nomination. I do like "local governments", yet this article has since been moved again back to a more verbose title. I am catching up on all that I missed. I'll reply with more in a bit. Cheers, Hwy43 (talk) 05:46, 16 May 2015 (UTC)[reply]
- Taiwanese Wikipedian User:Wildcursive raised his concern that the term "local" may be vague, which was why I moved to a more accurate title, but English and Chinese Wikipedias are different; English Wikipedia asks for conciseness, and I already think that the name I moved to is very accurate and precise already. Currently, I personally think that "local government" is also already correct because only the administrative divisions which I mentioned are "local governments" and there are no other sub-divisions with "governments". (I just need to have a lead that "defines the scope and inclusion criteria" as in the FL criteria). However, "mayors and magistrates" is definitely, absolutely incorrect. Anyone with a grasp of the Chinese language would know that "mayor" is a direct translation for the administrative head of a city. There are cities controlled by a county in the Republic of China, apart from special municipalities and provincial cities. I'll make a compromise here. I can't move the page, and you may request an administrator to move the page to List of heads of local governments in the Republic of China. HYH.124 (talk) 10:58, 11 May 2015 (UTC)[reply]
- Why is there a need for "current" in this article title (or the other FLs with the same)? It is superfluous disambiguation. By default, the scope of List of heads of local governments in the Republic of China should only be "current" heads anyway. The only time this disambiguation should be considered is if there was a List of former heads of local governments in the Republic of China, and I would argue that should be a disambiguated child of the main undisambiguated article, List of heads of local governments in the Republic of China. See List of municipalities of Norway and List of former municipalities of Norway. I also still think "heads of local governments" is too wordy compared to "mayors and magistrates". As you said here, "local" may be vague, so using "mayors and magistrates" would address that. Hwy43 (talk) 07:56, 11 May 2015 (UTC)[reply]
- @Hwy43 and Mattximus: I moved it to a shorter and more concise name. As for the use of "Taiwan" as part of the article name, consensus among the Wikipedia community is required, as the official name is not only accurate, precise and that it is neutral. There are two provinces (namely Taiwan Province and Fujian Province) in the Republic of China, but Taiwan is a province itself. Everyone is welcome to continue discussing on the article name length issue. HYH.124 (talk) 05:20, 11 May 2015 (UTC)[reply]
- Comment: I also don't see the need for a "Sex" column. Haven't seen that before (it is not in the FL it is modeled after). More than anything,
a brief sentence in the lead stating, "Two of the local government heads are female while the remaining are male." would bethe current sentence in the lead advising the number of female heads is sufficient. Hwy43 (talk) 08:06, 11 May 2015 (UTC)[reply]- I see where you are coming from, but you cannot be very sure that in the future, there will be a higher, equal proportion of females, or even more than males. This is with regard to gender equality, and readers may just read from the table, and if the table provides function to sort the females from the males and identify exactly the gender of each official, I don't see why not. If you really think the sex column should be removed, I will remove it. HYH.124 (talk) 10:58, 11 May 2015 (UTC)[reply]
- I just want to raise the issue that I tried to sort the date of birth, but I think the sorting function is being affected by the "Mayor of" or "Magistrate of" from the first column. Not sure if putting the office below the division would help. HYH.124 (talk) 10:58, 11 May 2015 (UTC)[reply]
Sorry this is out of order, but Fujian Province is most definitely not part of Republic of China as you stated above, but part of China (People's Republic of China). Also the consensus on wikipedia has been to name the country Taiwan, and you can read the consensus here: Talk:Taiwan/Archive_23#Why_is_this_article_not_called_.22Republic_of_China.22.3F, which links to previous discussions if you want a history of the decision. I don't dispute that "Republic of China" is the official name, but we must go with the consensus on wikipedia, and also in the English world Taiwan is far more popular in common usage. Mattximus (talk) 12:50, 11 May 2015 (UTC)[reply]
- I am referring to another administrative division, and obviously you are not knowledgeable about Taiwan politics at all. (I can't believe someone unaware of or even severely misunderstand the current political situation in the East Asia region will have any strong reasoning) If you can get consensus on this, I will gladly use the word "Taiwan". Currently, I don't see the need to. You are the only one insisting the use of so-called "common name", so if others agree with you and there is consensus, I would move. Please move on to other aspects of the article first. HYH.124 (talk) 05:57, 12 May 2015 (UTC)[reply]
@Hwy43 and Mattximus: I moved the article name to suit Mattximus' needs. Also the sex column on the list is removed. I don't mind further moving it to "mayors and magistrates" if any of you further insists. I will just sit back and laugh. HYH.124 (talk) 07:03, 12 May 2015 (UTC)[reply]
- There are still many issues with the article, for example, the date column does not sort properly. Also, since I don't know how the administrative divisions of Taiwan work, I clicked on a random city: Changhua City, and noticed it had a mayor, Chiu Chien-fu (DPP), that is not on this list. It appears he would be a head of local govenrment, no? Would you be able to explain this? Also you are slightly confused, the consensus on wikipedia was to use "Taiwan", and you can find the arguments linked above, it is not to suit my needs, but to be consistent with the rest of wikipedia. Mattximus (talk) 12:49, 12 May 2015 (UTC)[reply]
- Thank you for your comments, I will make necessary amendments to the article, do some research on Taiwan's law and address what you pointed out in a day or two. HYH.124 (talk) 12:17, 13 May 2015 (UTC)[reply]
- @Mattximus: OK, this is problematic, I checked the Local Government Act which was amended in 2014 and found out that third-level administrative divisions are also "local autonomous bodies" and they have their own local head of administration too, so the current article name would be incorrect. You may refer to List of townships, cities and districts of Taiwan. Currently in the Republic of China, the local governments of special municipalities, counties and provincial cities are directly governed by Taiwan's central government, though the first one is de jure a first-level division while next two are second-level. The original name which I used to submit this nomination is definitely accurate and addresses all problems, but both of you said it was too lengthy and not concise. "List of heads of Taiwanese local governments directly controlled by the Executive Yuan" is still quite lengthy and not very accurate according to Taiwan's law. There are FLs with long names too. I personally think that long names cannot be avoided if shorter names will cause ambiguation, vagueness, serious inaccuracy and confusion.
- I hereby propose to move the page to List of heads of governments of special municipalities, counties and provincial cities in Taiwan, which is a very accurate, precise name which much consideration and after "current" as well as the official name of Taiwan is not used. I will rename the page to my proposed name if you or anyone else agree.
- As for the date column,
I will fix it as soon as possibledone.
- HYH.124 (talk) 12:54, 13 May 2015 (UTC)[reply]
- Page moved, all above comments resolved. HYH.124 (talk) 01:13, 15 May 2015 (UTC)[reply]
- Yes this is a much better title that addressed my concern. Mattximus (talk) 20:26, 15 May 2015 (UTC)[reply]
- Sorry, not quite resolved per above and my third-last edit summary. If the Local Government Act recognizes third-level divisions, exactly how many are there, and what type(s) are they called? Do they all have local government heads? You've mentioned administrative heads, but are they elected like those in the higher divisions? If one or both of these answers are yes, couldn't this list be expanded to be inclusive of all divisions and potentially returned to the concise List of heads of Taiwanese local governments with a complete scope of heads of all levels of Taiwanese local governments? Hwy43 (talk) 05:57, 16 May 2015 (UTC)[reply]
- Yes this is a much better title that addressed my concern. Mattximus (talk) 20:26, 15 May 2015 (UTC)[reply]
I shall carry out works to the article and re-nominate it when time is right. I am now withdrawing this nomination. HYH.124 (talk) 06:04, 17 May 2015 (UTC)[reply]
- Closing note: This candidate has been archived, but there may be a delay in bot processing of the close. Please see WP:FLC/ar, and leave the {{featured list candidates}} template in place on the talk page until the bot goes through. – SchroCat (talk) 07:39, 17 May 2015 (UTC)[reply]
- The above discussion is preserved as an archive. Please do not modify it. No further edits should be made to this page.