Wikipedia:Featured list candidates/List of monarchs of the Muhammad Ali Dynasty/archive2

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The following is an archived discussion of a featured list nomination. Please do not modify it. Subsequent comments should be made on the article's talk page or in Wikipedia talk:Featured list candidates. No further edits should be made to this page.

The list was not promoted by User:Matthewedwards 00:56, 17 December 2008 [1].

List of monarchs of the Muhammad Ali Dynasty[edit]

previous FLC (20:02, 8 September 2008)

This is a list in an underrepresented category (royalty, nobility and heraldry) that is fully compliant with all of the FL criteria. The previous nomination simply failed because reviewers did not take the time to come back to the nomination page once they had written their comments; had they done so, they would have noticed that all of their remarks had been promptly taken into account. Therefore, I hope this time reviewers will not only make comments, but be kind enough to support if they realize that all of their objections have been addressed. BomBom (talk) 01:18, 29 November 2008 (UTC)[reply]

Support, all issues resolved. Dabomb87 (talk) 03:47, 14 December 2008 (UTC)[reply]

Resolved issues, Dabomb87 (talk)

Comments from Dabomb87 (talk · contribs)

  • "Monarchs of the Muhammad Ali Dynasty reigned over Egypt from 1805 until 1953." "until"-->to.
Done.
  • Please get an experienced image reviewer (User:David Fuchs) to check that all images are properly tagged/licensed.
Working on it.

Sorry, something just came up and I cannot provide a full review right now. I'll try to finish the comments ASAP. Dabomb87 (talk) 22:45, 3 December 2008 (UTC)[reply]

The two issues raised above are being dealt with. I'll inform you when the image review is complete. BomBom (talk) 22:41, 4 December 2008 (UTC)[reply]
  • "wāli (i.e. governor or viceroy)" Are governors and viceroys examples of wāli or are they the definiton/translation of the term?
Wāli is the Arabic word for governor/viceroy. I rephrased the sentence so as to make it clearer.
  • "From 1805 until 1867" "until"-->to.
Done.
  • "In fact, despite their subservient status, Egypt's wālis enjoyed far more political power than their "
Removed.
  • "Egypt's wālis enjoyed far more political power than their descendants who were to rule the country as nominally independent sultans and kings decades later. " Comma after "descendants".
Added.
  • "firman (i.e. decree)" Same question as four comments above.
It is a translation of the term. I rephrased the sentence so as to make it clearer.
  • "However, the end of nominal Ottoman suzerainty over Egypt did not result in genuine independence: the Sultanate of Egypt was a British protectorate where real power lay in the hand of the High Commissioner." Colon should be a semicolon.
Replaced.
  • "abrogating unilaterally" I think the order of these words should be switched.
Switched.
  • "As a result of this, Sultan Fouad I issued a decree on 15 March 1922 whereby he adopted the title of King of Egypt."
Removed.
  • "The list of heads of state of Egypt continues with the List of Presidents of Egypt." Move this link to the See also section. Dabomb87 (talk) 23:15, 8 December 2008 (UTC)[reply]
I removed this sentence altogether. The List of Presidents of Egypt is already linked to in the succession box at the bottom of the page.
Thanks a lot for your review, Dabomb87. Regarding the image review, I spent a lot of time these past few days doing research on Egypt's copyright laws and updating the corresponding license tag, which is used by almost all of the images in the article. I replaced images with dubious information with new versions that I uploaded myself. I therefore think that all of the images are now properly tagged/licensed. However, if you still feel the need for an external review, then please be aware that I contacted both David Fuchs (see here) and Awadewit (see here) and am awaiting their response. Since I already checked all of the 19 images in question, such a review shouldn't take them much time. Regards. BomBom (talk) 12:08, 9 December 2008 (UTC)[reply]

Sources look good. Dabomb87 (talk) 23:51, 9 December 2008 (UTC)[reply]

Comments


Image review by David Fuchs

Images

  • I'm not sure a flag/coat of arms is covered under "simple geometry" on Image:Coat of arms of the Kingdom of Egypt.JPG; I suggest contacting User:Elcobbola or User:Awadewit about it, they've got a bit more expertise than me.
    • I removed the coat of arms altogether. I'll try to create an SVG version and upload it on Wikimedia Commons. In the meantime, we'll have to be content with the flag of the Kingdom of Egypt. It is a user-created SVG image that was released into the public domain, so there's no problem with it. BomBom (talk) 01:58, 11 December 2008 (UTC)[reply]
  • All other images meet public domain via host country criteria (damn, the copyright protection in Egypt is lax as anything), but I'm going to check about their status in the US (as the servers are in Florida, they have to meet pub domain here as well; if they do, then they can all be transferred to commons.) Der Wohltemperierte Fuchs (talk) 19:39, 9 December 2008 (UTC)[reply]
    • I've consulted with Elcobbola about the above, and I'm right; it's the US determination that matters. As such, whether they're public domain in the country of origin doesn't matter. You can read Elco's response here. Der Wohltemperierte Fuchs (talk) 23:41, 10 December 2008 (UTC)[reply]
  • This is getting complicated. The article currently has 19 images. In order to make things clearer, I'll briefly address the status of each one below. Firstly, there are 10 images which are confirmed to be in the public domain in the US. These are:
1) The two flags used in the article. One has been created by a Wikipedia user and released into the public domain, while the other is ineligible for copyright since it consists entirely of simple geometry.
2) The two paintings of Muhammad Ali and Ibrahim, as well as the photograph of Sa'id. Their author is known and has been dead for more than 70 years.
3) The painting of Abbas Helmi I. Although its author is not known, its date of publication (1852) is confirmed by two reliable sources, and so it is clear the image is PD-US.
4) The three images of Isma'il, Fouad and Farouk. They come from the Library of Congress, whose website indicates that there are no known restrictions for their publication in the US.
5) The image of Hussein Kamel, which comes from the Project Gutenberg.
  • Then there are nine images for which there are very convincing reasons to believe that they are in the public domain in the US:
1) The two photographs of Tawfiq and Abbas Helmi II have missing information regarding their author. However, each one of them is dated with precision (1889 and 1898 respectively), so unless the author in question was some sort of supercentenarian, I think it is pretty safe to assume that using the PD-old-70 license tag is appropriate.
2) The remaining seven images were clearly created/published after 1923. According to Elcobbola, their "only hope at being PD in the US would be this: foreign works published before 1977 without compliance with US formalities and PD in their home countries as of 1.1.1996 are PD". Well this is exactly the case of these images. They were clearly published before 1977, did not comply with US formalities (Egypt and the US did not have copyright relations at that time), and were clearly PD in Egypt as of 1996 in accordance with Egyptian law. I removed the PD-Egypt license tag and replaced it with a PD-1996 one. You can have a look at it on any of the relevant images' page.
  • Regarding the aforementioned 10 images, I understand the need to make a distinction between creation and publication. Elcobbola says that we have no proof these images were published. Although I indeed am not aware of the exact date of publication for each one of them, it is beyond doubt that they were created in order to be published, since these were photographs of monarchs and very important public figures. Elcobbola asks: "What if this was taken, placed into an album or archives and not published until, say, 1978?" Can we be a little bit realistic here? If you insist that I actually prove the exact date of publication for each one, I will try to do it by finding, for instance, an old newspaper or postcard that included the photo. However, that would be really copyright paranoia, as I thought we were supposed to use common sense. Bear in mind that even the Library of Congress can provide crappy information; for instance, the image of King Fouad I is titled "Fouad I, Khedive of Egypt", when in fact he NEVER held such a title. Anyway, thanks a lot for taking the time to do the image review for the article. I'm now awaiting your thoughts regarding the appropriateness of the use of the PD-1996 license tag. Regards. BomBom (talk) 01:58, 11 December 2008 (UTC)[reply]
While I understand your grievances, Wikipedia's copyright policies are arcane beyond belief and more restrictive than the rest of the world, it still has to be followed. For the images in question finding some sort of published material with the image on it would be sufficient. For the above concerns about dates, simply mention why in the description or licensing field of the template why they meet public domain here. As for the author unknown images, if it was published so early you can use the pre-1923 templates instead of the author; even if it's pretty obvious he's been long dead by now, it's best to use the most concrete evidence. Der Wohltemperierte Fuchs (talk) 17:06, 12 December 2008 (UTC)[reply]

Comment The photographs of Tawfiq Pasha and Abbas Helmi II have been replaced with images that are confirmed to be in the public domain in the US. The seven other "problematic" images, whose publication date could not be determined with certitude, have been removed from the list. The article in its current form thus only includes free images, and so the image review is now completed. Thanks a lot for David Fuchs’ help and patience in dealing with this. BomBom (talk) 02:01, 14 December 2008 (UTC)[reply]

The above discussion is preserved as an archive. Please do not modify it. No further edits should be made to this page.
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