Wikipedia:Featured list candidates/List of municipalities in Lycoming County, Pennsylvania

List of municipalities in Lycoming County, Pennsylvania[edit]

The following is an archived discussion of a featured list nomination. Please do not modify it. Subsequent comments should be made on the article's talk page. No further edits should be made to this page. The closing editor's comments were: 18 days, 4 support, 0 oppose. 1 Neutral. Promote. Scorpion⁰⁴²² 20:13, 14 November 2007 (UTC)[reply]

List of municipalities in Lycoming County, Pennsylvania is a complete list of all current 52 municipalities in Lycoming County, Pennsylvania, and has two shorter lists of all known former townships, and of all other counties formed from or containing susbtantial territory from the county. It has had a peer review, which is here, that found no major problems. The suggestions for improvement have all been addressed and we believe the list meets the requirements for featured list candidates. This article, including the large clickable map, follows the model of List of Kentucky counties, which is a featured list. The picture galleries follow the model of List of Pennsylvania state parks, which is also a Featured list. This is a self-nomination in that we are the editors who have worked the most on this list and the municipality articles themselves. Thanks in advance for all input, Dincher and Ruhrfisch 05:55, 26 October 2007 (UTC)[reply]

Support. -- Incredibly comprehensive list for its topic, and well sourced with WP:CIT. Great job! Curt Wilhelm VonSavage 18:40, 26 October 2007 (UTC).[reply]
Support: It's incredibly long, but very well written. A couple areas you might revisit:

- The "remarks" in the "Municipalities" list are basically trivia wrt the list. That information belongs on the specific municipality page, but may not belong here.
- Likewise the "FIPS" and "Etymology" columns from the "Pennsylvania counties formed from Lycoming" section.
- Since the only "formed from" information in the "former townships" section is for Wayne Township, perhaps that could be a footnote? That would eliminate one column from that section, tightening it up.

Those are just suggestions, though - I support the list as is :) -- SatyrTN (talk | contribs) 16:12, 29 October 2007 (UTC)[reply]

- Comment Thanks for your support. The "Remarks" section does note the villages (which are ~~unincorporated~~ not incorporated separately from townships) and so provides more information on inhabited places within the (incorporated) townships. The Pennsylvania counties table uses the standard "List of X counties" format (where X is the state, see List of Kentucky counties, for example). This is actually a template for each row, which is why the FIPS and etymology information is included. Since it seems to be standardized and you do not require its removal, I will leave it in pending further comment (this is also why we included etymologies - the counties lists have them and there is no(t yet a) FL on municipalities within a county). I will take the "formed from" information out of the last table and add a note, thanks for the suggestions and support! Ruhrfisch _><>°^° 17:46, 29 October 2007 (UTC)[reply]
  - Except for the inclusion of villages, all of your suggested changes have now been made, thanks again Ruhrfisch _><>°^° 17:02, 7 November 2007 (UTC)[reply]
- Comment Thanks for the support! Dincher 22:17, 29 October 2007 (UTC)[reply]

Original oppose comments by Circeus

Oppose
- ~~I'm not a fan of the galleries, but then maybe that's just me.~~
- ~~It seems unnecessary to link "City" and "borough" in the table, when they should have been linked in the table.~~
- ~~"All territory in Pennsylvania is incorporated: there are no unincorporated areas in the county or state."~~
  - ~~This feels redundant and poorly written~~
- ~~On one hand, you say "there are no unincorporated areas in the county or state," and right after "Unincorporated areas within Lycoming County townships include [...]".~~
- Consider renaming "remarks" to "etymology" and drops the "include" parts. (or just actually list these villages separately,especially if the "counties split from Lycoming" section goes).
- I'm really not sure that "Pennsylvania counties formed from Lycoming" is a relevant section. This is really a big chunk of an obvious Territorial evolution of Pennsylvania article (cf. Territorial evolution of Mexico, Canada, the United States, Australia...). Without a map showing the original extant of Lycoming county, it's just very confusing too.
  - At the very least this section (and the "Former townships" one are probably overdetailed: since they are not parts of Lycoming per se, they don't need to give as much details as the primary list. (this added as I realized it in the subpage discussion)
- Far too many spurious wikilinks in the references. The only one (besides dates) I can see useful is the first instance of Pennsylvania Historical and Museum Commission. And the "no ISBN" notes are silly.
Circeus 04:10, 5 November 2007 (UTC)[reply]
Answers and further discussion moved ~~on subpage~~ Wikipedia talk:Featured list candidates/List of municipalities in Lycoming County, Pennsylvania, because of massive size. I did this because it would allow the discussion, which is quite overwhelming to be split and refactored (sections) for useability. Circeus 19:59, 5 November 2007 (UTC)[reply]
- I was bold and moved it from the subpage to the Talk page, as that seemed a more standard place for such a discussion. Ruhrfisch _><>°^° 17:04, 7 November 2007 (UTC)[reply]
  - Really, really sorry I didn't get around to it before. Loking at the discussion right now.Circeus 01:13, 8 November 2007 (UTC)[reply]

Neutral I give up. Clearly I am absolutely incapable of voicing my argument with anything even remotely close to coherence. See the overlylong and apparently quite pointless discussion for all the grim and grit. The CliffsNotes version (WTF, the second level listing won't work!?):

Pointless data bloating the "former townships" and "counties formed from Lycoming" to the point of ridiculousness
Listing the villages within the table is pointless as it makes it practically impossible to even know they are actually listed.

Circeus 17:35, 8 November 2007 (UTC)[reply]

Reply I have wrestled with what, if anything, to reply here. First, I want to thank Circeus for his helpful comments. Second, we believe that it is useful to have the same basic information for all the counties and townships in the article, including their current area and population. Originally the columns (info) were identical for both the current and former townships lists, but we removed "formed from" from former townships at the suggestion of a reviewer here (see above). We feel that area and population are useful for comparisons, and give an idea of what the past (former territory) has become. While Circeus believes this is "pointless data", we feel it is better to include it and let readers choose to ignore it, than not include it and wish we had. Third, there is now a List of villages in Lycoming County, Pennsylvania article, which might remove one of Circeus' objections. Ruhrfisch _><>°^° 02:47, 12 November 2007 (UTC)[reply]

~~Oppose~~, seems to be confused as to its scope: the "counties formed from Lycoming" does not remotely belong in this article, it belongs at best in the Lycoming County article, since that table has nothing to do with municipalities. Remove that, and I switch to strong support, as the article is otherwise well-focused, has good information, and I love the maps; keep it, and I'm forced to oppose. (as creator of the 'territorial evolution' articles, though, that chart and any others like it would be a great help in making a 'territorial evolution of Pennsylvania' article.) --Golbez 04:08, 13 November 2007 (UTC)[reply]
- Comment Thank you. The counties list is out now. Our rationale for its inclusion was that half the counties are not represented in the former townships table (finding this information is fairly difficult). We continue to search for more information and I added Jefferson County's Pine Creek Township (a new find) and Union County's Gregg Township (forgot to include it before - sorry). ~~I still need to make the locator maps for these (should be done within a day).~~ Ruhrfisch _><>°^° 12:07, 13 November 2007 (UTC)[reply]
  - I understand; perhaps a short list of "Counties formerly in Lycoming in which no municipalities were formed" might apply, in the header of the section of former townships. Or does the "all land in PA is incorporated" extend all that way back, and therefore all the land was incorporated? Either way, the large table was way out of place, and just duplicated the table from the counties of PA article. Switching to support, thanks for the good work. --Golbez 19:44, 13 November 2007 (UTC)[reply]
    - Thanks for the support and for recognizing all the hard work that has been put into this list. Dincher 20:16, 13 November 2007 (UTC)[reply]
    - Thanks too - as far as I know all territory under Pennsylvania's jurisdiction has been always been incorporated: i.e., when Northumberland (Lycoming's parent) and Lycoming Counties were organized, both had townships from day one, and all their territory was in those townships. Land purchased from Natives later was quickly organized into townships. Unfortunately the sources are often maddeningly vague - Meginness (1892) reports in some detail on Centre County (the first taken from Lycoming), but says nothing on the others taken that same year. Godcharles (1933) reports in some detail on each then current township, but says next to nothing on previous or defunct townships (just oblique references in a few places that may or may not add up). Ruhrfisch _><>°^° 23:18, 13 November 2007 (UTC)[reply]