Wikipedia:Featured list candidates/List of operas by Carl Maria von Weber/archive1

The following is an archived discussion of a featured list nomination. Please do not modify it. Subsequent comments should be made on the article's talk page or in Wikipedia talk:Featured list candidates. No further edits should be made to this page.

The list was promoted by PresN via FACBot (talk) 00:27, 17 December 2020 (UTC) [1].

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List of operas by Carl Maria von Weber

List of operas by Carl Maria von Weber (edit | talk | history | protect | delete | links | watch | logs | views)

• Featured list candidates/List of operas by Carl Maria von Weber/archive1

Nominator(s): Aza24 (talk) 09:12, 26 November 2020 (UTC)

Carl Maria von Weber, a tragically neglected composer, best known for his masterpiece Der Freischütz. His operatic output constituted a massive influence on the next generation of German composers, especially Richard Wagner, whose early operas were written in Weber's shadow. I believe this list meets the FLC criteria; it's accessible, fully sortable, and contains a thorough yet concise lead that effectively summarizes Weber's operatic career. Looking forward to any and all comments. Aza24 (talk) 09:12, 26 November 2020 (UTC)

Resolved comments from ChrisTheDude (talk) 08:12, 27 November 2020 (UTC)

;Comments Could the lead image be made larger? On my screen it looks tiny Agreed, have done this In the second sentence, the numbers should all be written as words Done "were all performed within his life time" - pretty sure "lifetime" is one word Pretty sure you're right... "Premiered in 1803 Augsburg" => "Premiered in Augsburg in 1803" Done "which premiered there to much praise in 1823" - premiered where? I can't work out which place is being referred to...... Rephrased this "Period at which the opera was written" => "Period during which the opera was written" Done Note c doesn't need a full stop Done Nor does note f Done In note i, 2 should be written as a word Done Same with note m Done "Hiemer based Silvana off Steinsberg's libretto" => "Hiemer based Silvana on Steinsberg's libretto" Done Note q does need a full stop Done Think that's it from me - good work! -- ChrisTheDude (talk) 20:01, 26 November 2020 (UTC) Thanks for your helpful comments as always Chris – I believe I have addressed everything. Aza24 (talk) 21:38, 26 November 2020 (UTC)

• Support -- ChrisTheDude (talk) 08:12, 27 November 2020 (UTC)

Comments from Dank

• Standard disclaimer: I don't know what I'm doing, and I mostly AGF on sourcing.
• "Two fragments survive; was thought to be lost until 2000 where": I'm not sure I follow that. Were both lost? 2000 where, or 2000 when?
• FLC criteria:
• 1. I see Chris has covered the prose in the lead. The coding in the table (including the sorting) was tricky, and you did a good job with it.
• 2. The lead meets WP:LEAD and defines the inclusion criteria.
• 3a. The list has comprehensive items and annotations.
• 3b. The article is well-sourced to reliable sources, and the UPSD tool isn't indicating any problems (but this isn't a source review). No retrieval dates are needed (probably).
• 3c. The list meets requirements as a stand-alone list, it isn't a content fork, it doesn't largely duplicate another article (that I can find), and it wouldn't fit easily inside another article.
• 4. It is navigable.
• 5. It meets style requirements.
• 6. It is stable.
• Support, since this is close enough to the finish line. Well done. - Dank (push to talk) 02:47, 27 November 2020 (UTC)
  • Many thanks Dank, just to keep you updated, I believe I've appropriately rephrased the line you mentioned. Best - Aza24 (talk) 04:37, 27 November 2020 (UTC)
• I support this nomination! ~~ CAPTAIN MEDUSA^talk 07:03, 27 November 2020 (UTC)

Resolved comments from ~ HAL333 03:26, 1 December 2020 (UTC)

Comments Note o needs a period. Done Although not really necessary, it would be cool if you could make articles for the redlinks. I wish I could, but my to do list is too full right now! No worries. ;) I feel like the items in the "Status" column should be capitalized. Agreed, changed Also, why are some of the operas not linked? Are they just not notable? In the lead I only link them the first time; the three that aren't linked at all in the lead or table don't have articles unfortunately. Luckily, these are on my to do list :) – although I'll probably group them into one "Lost operas by Carl Maria von Weber" article like we do for Monteverdi or Rameau The sources are very high quality and look good to me. Overall, this is another well made and impressive list. ~ HAL333 01:03, 1 December 2020 (UTC) Thanks for taking a look HAL333, I believe I've addressed the above. Aza24 (talk) 02:01, 1 December 2020 (UTC)

• Happy to Support ~ HAL333 03:26, 1 December 2020 (UTC)

• Source review – The references are well-formatted and reliable, and the link-checker tool shows no issues. My only citation-related complaint is that note n could probably use a source. If I'm reading the article correctly, reference 13 appears to be citing this exact fact in the lead, so you could just name the cite and use it in the note if that's the case. Giants2008 (Talk) 00:21, 2 December 2020 (UTC)
  • Thanks Giants2008, I've added ref 13 to that note as you suggested. I also added refs to some others notes – just to be safe. Aza24 (talk) 02:17, 2 December 2020 (UTC)
    • Looks good to me. With that, I'd say the source review has been passed. Giants2008 (Talk) 21:06, 3 December 2020 (UTC)

Comments from Smerus

• Being a boring stickler for clarity, I have to say I don't like the missing definitive articles in the lead.

• "German composer Carl Maria von Weber" → "The German composer Carl Maria von Weber" - otherwise it looks like you are distinguishing from, say "French composer Carl Maria von Weber" or "Estonian composer Carl Maria von Weber"......
• Similarly in para 2 should be "the 12-13 year old Weber"

• Agree completely, have adjusted

• Unfortunately the main Weber article is somewhat deficient (understatement). It mentions briefly (and I think this could be also mentioned in the lead for the List) Weber's study with Vogler (around 1810-12) and his subsequent friendship with Meyerbeer. On Weber's death his widow asked Meyerbeer to complete Die Drei Pintos. Meyerbeer never got round to it and eventually returned the ms. to Mrs. Weber with some financial compensation. That's why it wasn't completed until Mahler took it up.
  • Thanks for this clarification, definitely worth included – I've added more about his widow approached Meyerbeer and the Mahler completion. I opted to leave out the study with Volger and origin of his friendship with Meyerbeer since I think that may be too much detail for this article.
• Picture should have an alt text.
  • Done
• Otherwise seems fine to me -

Best, --Smerus (talk) 13:24, 7 December 2020 (UTC)

Many thanks for your comments here Smerus, I've believed I've addressed the above. This list was a way for me to get more familiar with Weber's career/music, with a plan of eventually working on his article, which I agree is in a rather awful state...! Aza24 (talk) 07:19, 8 December 2020 (UTC)

• Great, I'm very happy to support the nomination. Best, --Smerus (talk) 09:16, 8 December 2020 (UTC)

Comments from Edwininlondon

With the disclaimer that I'm not an expert in the field, just a few comments:

• His first four survive in various states: Die Macht der Liebe und des Weins (comp. 1798) is completely lost; --> that seems contradictory: if it is completely lost, can it be said to survive in any state?
  • Good point, changed to "exist" – which is perhaps more concise
• were all performed within his lifetime and survive intact, except Die drei Pintos which was posthumously completed by Gustav Mahler. --> perhaps rephrase so that the except clearly refers to performance and not survival
  • Done this I think
• 12–13 year old Weber began --> Bit odd. He was either 12 or 13 when he began. Is the range there because of uncertainty or because he studied at age 13 as well?
  • I thought it was unknown, but I checked and must have been wrong, changed to 13
• Steinberg or Steinsberg?
  • Good catch, fixed (Steinsberg)
• When in Stuttgart, Weber and Hiemer --> stylistically I would drop the "When in Stuttgart" bit. So many placenames already going around, needed for the performances, but not for where they worked on it, methinks. Just my opinion. Feel free to ignore.
  • Normally I would agree, but the idea here is to say that they had already begun work on a second work in Stuttgart, vs beginning Abu Hassan after Silvana had been performed
• Should Opera in Prague link to State Opera (Prague)?
  • I think it's Estates Theatre – linked
• in 1821 Berlin --> in 1821 in Berlin
  • Fixed
• massive acclaim --> not quite the right tone for Wikipedia I think
  • Changed to "extremely well received" – it's difficult to find the line between editorializing vs encyclopedic tone here as this premiere was extremely successful, and I've used the word "success" too much in the lead already :)
• Carl Von Weber --> von? (also in note p)
  • Fixed
• the only English libretto he ever set by James Planché --> a bit ambiguous: did he set German ones by Planché?
  • Have rephrased here, meant to say that this is the only English Libretto Weber set
• The work received much acclaim and Weber died in London less than two months later. --> I would split this into 2 sentences.
  • Agreed – fixed
• Morgan (2017, p. 14) lists it as a singspiel --> elsewhere it is Singspiel with a capital
  • I have no idea, Warrack does a capital and does Brown – leaning towards sticking with capital to match the other genres
• Source spot check mostly fine, just a few questions:
• Warrack's list starts with Waldmädchen, not Die Macht der Liebe und des Weins. Should there be a footnote explaining this?
  • Perhaps... I've checked Warrack on google books, and rather awkwardly, for some reason, it is no longer giving me a preview of the pages in question. Does Warrack give any reasoning for this that you can see?
    • On page 379 the chapter "List of works" simply starts with Waldmädchen (try this link [2]). No explanation. If I search the book for "Weins" the only hits are on page 32, 33 and 409. But page 32 clearly confirms Die Macht der Liebe und des Weins was the first opera and that it was lost. Simply odd that Warrack does not start page 379 with it. Anyway, it's fine. No footnote needed I think.
• You have Der Freischütz as Kind after Apel, but Warrack has "Apel and Laun"
  • Ugh, how do I miss these things. Fixed.

Otherwise looks fine to me. Edwininlondon (talk) 09:44, 13 December 2020 (UTC)

• @Edwininlondon: Your comments here are exceptionally helpful, thank you! I believe I have addressed the above, except one thing it. Happy to discuss anything further. Best - Aza24 (talk) 08:09, 14 December 2020 (UTC)
  • You're welcome. I'm happy to support the nomination, it meets the FL criteria. Edwininlondon (talk) 17:26, 14 December 2020 (UTC)

Promoting. --PresN 20:34, 16 December 2020 (UTC)

• Closing note: This candidate has been promoted, but there may be a delay in bot processing of the close. Please see WP:FLC/ar, and leave the {{featured list candidates}} template in place on the talk page until the bot goes through.

The above discussion is preserved as an archive. Please do not modify it. No further edits should be made to this page.