Wikipedia:Featured list candidates/Timeline of the 1991 Atlantic hurricane season/archive1
- The following is an archived discussion of a featured list nomination. Please do not modify it. Subsequent comments should be made on the article's talk page or in Wikipedia talk:Featured list candidates. No further edits should be made to this page.
The list was promoted by PresN via FACBot (talk) 00:26, 16 March 2024 (UTC) [1].[reply]
Timeline of the 1991 Atlantic hurricane season[edit]
Timeline of the 1991 Atlantic hurricane season (edit | talk | history | protect | delete | links | watch | logs | views)
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- Nominator(s): ''Flux55'' (talk), Dylan620 (he/him • talk • edits) 00:28, 31 January 2024 (UTC)[reply]
This timeline was created by Flux55, a promising new user who has already done a lot of good work. 1991 was a quiet year for Atlantic hurricanes, but don't tell that to anyone in New England! Hurricane Bob caused extensive damage and over a dozen fatalities when it scraped up the East Coast and plowed into Rhode Island at Category 2 strength—it's still the most recent New England hurricane landfall. Also of note was the infamous Perfect Storm, which became a large, powerful, and damaging nor'easter after it ate Hurricane Grace for dinner... and then itself became a hurricane before making landfall in Canada as a weakened system! I'm proud of the work Flux and I put into this, and we look forward to the community's feedback. Dylan620 (he/him • talk • edits) 00:28, 31 January 2024 (UTC)[reply]
- Comment A spot check found multiple distance and location Statements which are not stated or supported by the referenced source. If a TCR or other reliable secondary source does not mention something the statement needs to be removed. Drdpw (talk) 02:15, 1 February 2024 (UTC)[reply]
- @Drdpw: I understand where you're coming from. I was attempting to follow the standards of the Timeline of the 2020 Pacific hurricane season (which, according to the featured list log, is the most recent season timeline to be promoted to featured status). There, every single event in a system's life—be it formation, change in category, landfall, peak intensity, or dissipation—is given a location compared to a city, island, or other landmark, even if such comparisons were not explicitly drawn in the TCRs for those systems. I have also observed this being the case, from a spot-check of a few timeline details, with the 2020 ATL and 2018 EPAC timelines. If removal of the details in question from the 1991 ATL timeline is required, then I am willing to do so, but I was under the impression that I had been following recent best practice. Dylan620 (he/him • talk • edits) 19:32, 1 February 2024 (UTC)[reply]
- I think I've asked this before and was told it was a matter of WP:CALC to measure the great circle distance between two points, using the NHC's coordinates for storm location. ~ KN2731 {talk · contribs} 22:35, 4 February 2024 (UTC)[reply]
- We can use, for example, NOAA's Latitude/Longitude Distance Calculator to calculate the distance between two points. But we cannot state that a system is about "X" miles from "Y" land point unless that land point is specifically mentioned somewhere in the referenced article. The 2023 Atlantic and 2023 Pacific hurricane season timelines, currently undergoing revision as new TCRs are published, are good examples of how TL content can be limited when limited information is available. Drdpw (talk) 05:16, 5 February 2024 (UTC)[reply]
- @Drdpw: Got it, that makes sense; I'll go back and make adjustments after breakfast and coffee. Should be able to finish this evening. Dylan620 (he/him • talk • edits) 12:58, 5 February 2024 (UTC) (updated 17:32, 5 February 2024 (UTC))[reply]
- @Drdpw and KN2731: Okay, I think I've got it all—how's it look now? Dylan620 (he/him • talk • edits) 00:49, 6 February 2024 (UTC)[reply]
- @Drdpw and KN2731: Just making sure you've seen this – would appreciate your feedback on the fixes I've made. Dylan620 (he/him • talk • edits) 21:31, 12 February 2024 (UTC)[reply]
- @Drdpw: Got it, that makes sense; I'll go back and make adjustments after breakfast and coffee. Should be able to finish this evening. Dylan620 (he/him • talk • edits) 12:58, 5 February 2024 (UTC) (updated 17:32, 5 February 2024 (UTC))[reply]
- We can use, for example, NOAA's Latitude/Longitude Distance Calculator to calculate the distance between two points. But we cannot state that a system is about "X" miles from "Y" land point unless that land point is specifically mentioned somewhere in the referenced article. The 2023 Atlantic and 2023 Pacific hurricane season timelines, currently undergoing revision as new TCRs are published, are good examples of how TL content can be limited when limited information is available. Drdpw (talk) 05:16, 5 February 2024 (UTC)[reply]
- I think I've asked this before and was told it was a matter of WP:CALC to measure the great circle distance between two points, using the NHC's coordinates for storm location. ~ KN2731 {talk · contribs} 22:35, 4 February 2024 (UTC)[reply]
- @Drdpw: I understand where you're coming from. I was attempting to follow the standards of the Timeline of the 2020 Pacific hurricane season (which, according to the featured list log, is the most recent season timeline to be promoted to featured status). There, every single event in a system's life—be it formation, change in category, landfall, peak intensity, or dissipation—is given a location compared to a city, island, or other landmark, even if such comparisons were not explicitly drawn in the TCRs for those systems. I have also observed this being the case, from a spot-check of a few timeline details, with the 2020 ATL and 2018 EPAC timelines. If removal of the details in question from the 1991 ATL timeline is required, then I am willing to do so, but I was under the impression that I had been following recent best practice. Dylan620 (he/him • talk • edits) 19:32, 1 February 2024 (UTC)[reply]
Comments by AndrewPeterT
Hello, Dylan! This is Andrew444 from Wikia! It is so nice to see you again after all these years still interested in tropical cyclones! Anyway, I am going to do my best to evaluate this list for featured criteria. I would ask that other comments elaborate on the points I bring up wherever possible:
1. Prose - I appreciate that there is plenty of meteorological jargon appropriately used in the timeline, yet the language remains accessible for everyone. I also see no obvious grammatical errors, and the page "feels" objective and encyclopedic when I read it. I would also like to offer the following content-related feedback:
- I notice that the four-digit pressure readings are written with commas. This is not the stylistic preference I see from the National Hurricane Center in their advisories and tropical cyclone reports. What is the rationale for including commas in these measurements?
- I stated above that I tried to model this timeline after 2020 EPAC – I observed the minimum pressure statements in that one and thought, "huh, I guess we're adding the commas now!" Of the three promotions which preceded it (in reverse order: 2020 ATL, 2018 EPAC, 2019 ATL), only 2018 EPAC excludes the commas. In other words, I kept the commas so as to follow what I perceived to be recent convention. Dylan620 (he/him • talk • edits) 02:26, 20 February 2024 (UTC)[reply]
- There are no links to the Tropical Storm Danny, Tropical Storm Erika, and Tropical Depression Ten sections of the 1991 Atlantic hurricane season article in the timeline prose. Could these links be added for consistency?
- Done, done, and done. I'm not sure how I missed the lack of links for Erika and 10L – good catch! A link to Tropical Storm Danny (1991) (which redirects to the relevant section on the season article) had been present, but I switched it out with a direct link per your comment; I've also done the same with Claudette and Fabian. Dylan620 (he/him • talk • edits) 02:26, 20 February 2024 (UTC)[reply]
- I note that the prose insinuates that Tropical Storm Erika became extratropical as a tropical storm. Yet the track image shows that Erika weakened into a tropical depression before becoming extratropical. Which of these scenarios actually occurred?
- I'm a little embarrassed to have not picked up on this discrepancy myself. This appears to be a case where the TCR (the source provided for the text of this event in the timeline) is at odds with HURDAT (the source for generating the track maps). A discussion at Talk:Hurricane Luis#Winds a few years ago seemingly concluded that the TCR takes precedence over HURDAT. Dylan620 (he/him • talk • edits) 02:26, 20 February 2024 (UTC)[reply]
- @Dylan620: Is there a way for a footnote to be added explaining this discrepancy you mention in this post? I was not aware of these conflicting conventions myself, and I would assume other readers would not be, either. AndrewPeterT (talk) (contribs) 02:07, 7 March 2024 (UTC)[reply]
- @AndrewPeterT: Footnote added. Dylan620 (he/him • talk • edits) 17:04, 7 March 2024 (UTC)[reply]
- @Dylan620: Is there a way for a footnote to be added explaining this discrepancy you mention in this post? I was not aware of these conflicting conventions myself, and I would assume other readers would not be, either. AndrewPeterT (talk) (contribs) 02:07, 7 March 2024 (UTC)[reply]
2. Lead - I defer to another editor on whether or not the first few paragraphs satisfy the fine print of WP:MOSLEAD. However, I can say that the page nicely includes the "standard explanatory text" for hurricane season timelines. I also really like how the second paragraph summarizes the major impacts of Hurricane Bob and the 1991 Perfect Storm. That being said, I do have the following feedback:
- Unlike some other season timelines, the lede does not define what an "average Atlantic hurricane season" entails. Could a footnote be added explaining this terminology?
- Could we add somewhere in the last two paragraphs that one-minute sustained winds are used to measure the wind speeds of North Atlantic tropical cyclones?
- Even though the lead should be a summary, I do feel that the sinking of the Andrea Gail by the 1991 Perfect Storm is too significant to ignore. Perhaps a sentence can be added explaining how a book and film were made about this event (as to engage readers with little background in tropical cyclones)?
3. Comprehensiveness -
(a) In general, the page does a great job describing when each tropical cyclone "changed" Saffir-Simpson scale categories and made landfall. Pass on this criterion.
(b) I do not see any statements that must be cited per WP:MINREF. However, I would like to contest the following claim made in the timeline:
- In the July 6 entry, it says that
Tropical Depression Two makes landfall near La Pesca, Mexico with winds of 35 mph (55 km). Its only known barometric pressure measurement of 1,007 mbar (29.74 inHg) is taken around this time.
The corresponding cited source from the National Hurricane Center only states the 1007 mbar reading. It never says this reading was the only measurement taken from the depression. Could either another source be found for the latter sentence or the latter sentence be removed altogether?
- I worded this the way I did because HURDAT does not list any pressure values for the system; neither do the advisories, with the sole exception of the one cited as a source for the measurement. I've rephrased this to remove the statement of the measurement being the only one, while still keeping mention of the 1,007 mbar value. Dylan620 (he/him • talk • edits) 02:26, 20 February 2024 (UTC)[reply]
(c) I will defer to other editors on whether this page meets the criteria of WP:STANDALONE and WP:CFORK. That being said, I can say that while some large chunks of language do seem to be very similar to other Atlantic hurricane season timelines (e.g. that of 1992), I can tell that the specific wording is customized specifically for the 1991 season. Finally, because of how much specific detail is present about formations, dissipations, and other key events of all the storms, I would argue content would be lost if we tried to merge the timeline into the general season article. With that, I say pass on this criterion.
4. Structure - I greatly appreciate the consistent layout of the timeline. Readers like me can easily follow along as the days and months of the 1991 season progress. Pass on this criterion.
5. Style - I defer to other editors on whether your work fully meets the criteria of the WP:MOS. However, I can say the following:
(a) Visual appeal - I am happy to see the lack of red links. Also, the visual timeline, like it does on other WP:WPTC articles, provides a great and simple color-coding scheme for readers to digest and visualize different storms' intensities. Pass on this criterion.
(b) Media files - Great work providing images with concise captions scattered throughout the list, especially the visual of the Perfect Storm absorbing Grace! And since all the images are free use, no need to worry about non-free use rationales! That being said, I would like to see a satellite image or track of Tropical Storm Danny somewhere in the article. Also, what is the rationale for some storms having satellite imagery but others having tracks?
- I've added a satellite image of Danny, while also switching out Ana's image for its track and Fabian's track for an image of the storm. I included both satellite images and tracks pretty much just for variety's sake, though I did try to prioritize track images for storms which lacked location comparison points in their TCRs. Dylan620 (he/him • talk • edits) 02:26, 20 February 2024 (UTC)[reply]
6. Stability - Looking through the edit history, I notice that most of the edits from the past month are revisions that you have made, several of which are in response to the feedback Drdpw and others gave above. This page seems satisfactorily stable for a FL.
I will offer my formal support once all of my concerns have been addressed. Please let me know if you have any questions or comments. I wish you and Flux55 the best with this process. AndrewPeterT (talk) (contribs) 01:55, 18 February 2024 (UTC)[reply]
- One last piece of feedback for now: In your nomination blurb, I would encourage you to clarify that the Perfect Storm eating Hurricane Grace is a reference to the Fujiwhara effect. Not everyone may understand that figurative language. AndrewPeterT (talk) (contribs) 02:00, 18 February 2024 (UTC)[reply]
- Hi Andrew, it's great to hear from you – I never knew you had a Wikipedia account! Thank you so much for taking the time to review this! I have a busy day in meatspace today, but I'll try to address your concerns after work tomorrow. Regards, Dylan620 in public/on mobile (he/him • talk) 13:17, 18 February 2024 (UTC)[reply]
Comments[edit]
- "The third tropical depression of the season forms from an area of low pressure offshore the Bahamas" - is this a valid Americanism? In UK English we would say "off the shores of the Bahamas" or simply "off the Bahamas" but never "offshore the Bahamas". But maybe it is valid in American English.......?
- Prince Edward Island is mentioned but never linked
- That's all I got! -- ChrisTheDude (talk) 08:26, 27 February 2024 (UTC)[reply]
Co-nom update[edit]
I note with great sadness and disappointment that my co-nominator, Flux55, turned out to be a sockpuppet and has been blocked indefinitely. I am still able and willing to address any feedback for this nomination, and I hope this can still pass through the FLC process. Dylan620 (he/him • talk • edits) 23:22, 5 March 2024 (UTC)[reply]
Accessibility review[edit]
Per MOS:PSEUDOHEAD, the use of ";" to make psuedo-headers is not acceptable. It's ironically fixable in two opposite ways: either make them actual headers (e.g. ====June 1====), or make them actual bold text (e.g. June 1), but the semicolon is for a list thing that you're not actually doing, which messes up screen-reader software. --PresN 04:39, 7 March 2024 (UTC)[reply]
- Hi PresN, I appreciate you bringing this to my attention! I've replaced the semicolons with level 6 headers (the header size which looks identical to semicolon headers/bold text) and added {{TOC limit|3}} higher up the page. It's a different approach from the last few timeline FLs, which simply use bold text, but I figured it was one worth trying. Dylan620 (he/him • talk • edits) 16:46, 7 March 2024 (UTC)[reply]
Source review passed; promoted. --PresN 21:18, 15 March 2024 (UTC)[reply]
- Closing note: This candidate has been promoted, but there may be a delay in bot processing of the close. Please see WP:FLC/ar, and leave the {{featured list candidates}} template in place on the talk page until the bot goes through.
- The above discussion is preserved as an archive. Please do not modify it. No further edits should be made to this page.