Wikipedia:Good article reassessment/Holocaust denial/1

Holocaust denial[edit]

Article (edit | visual edit | history) · Article talk (edit | history) · Watch • Watch article reassessment page • GAN review not found

Result: Delist This went off on a tangent, but the original complaint and presence of multiple tags is enough to have this delisted. This is not the right place to decide who should or shouldn't be categorised as a denier. That is on the talk pager, accompanied with some pretty good sources. I did read the Nolte section and it needs some work either way (flirt with an Italian Holocaust denier?). Not sure the bullet points in the lead fit our MOS guidelines either, but that is a minor point. AIRcorn (talk) 02:10, 23 August 2020 (UTC)[reply]

I am concerned that the article does not meet the GA criteria. In particular, not all the content is verifiable to "reliable, published sources that are directly related to the topic of the article, and directly support the material being presented", as required by WP:NOR, and the article contains excessive material on tangentially related aspects that are not extensively treated on reliable sources on the subject, failing GA criteria 3 (focus). See talk page for further discussion. b uidhe 01:39, 6 June 2020 (UTC)[reply]

I whole heartedly agree. In my opinion the article has many other problematic issues. This one for example: Eisenhower is quoted with this accompanying text: "Eisenhower, upon finding the victims of the death camps, ordered all possible photographs to be taken, and for the German people from surrounding villages to be ushered through the camps and even made to bury the dead." The problem with this statement is that Eisenhower NEVER, EVER visited what is now regarded as a "death camp" as those camps are all in Poland. Eisenhower had visited Ohrdruf concentration camp, which was a subcamp of the Buchenwald concentration camp in Germany. Both of which are now acknowledged to NOT have been "death camps" or "extermination camps". So what has his visit and statement in Ohrdruf got to do with what later came to be unanimously called 'the Holocaust'? Especially when that nomenclature didn't become widely used and accepted until the mid-60's. I.e. what has a misappropriation of a quote by Eisenhower got to do with "denial" of a narrative that didn't appear as we now accept it and refer to it, until nearly two decades later? Here is another example: Norman Finkelstein has been called a 'holocaust denier'. Yet both his parents were interned in concentration camps for being Jewish. His mother survived the Warsaw Ghetto uprising and the Maijdanek concentration camp. Yet he is regarded by some people as a holocaust denier for critical statements he has made, particularly his book called 'the Holocaust industry'. He fits the following categorisation of denier in this wiki article. Because his book can and has been regarded as promoting the idea of a "Jewish conspiracy designed to advance the interest of Jews at the expense of other people. For this reason, Holocaust denial is generally considered to be an antisemitic". Yet he is not mentioned in the article. Nor is DAVID COLE another person who is both Jewish and considered a 'denier'. But Professor Nolte is mentioned AND in great detail. Yet it is acknowledged that he was NOT a 'denier'???? So why has he a whole sub-section about him? And he is curiously described as "operating on the borderlines of Holocaust denial". Borderline??? Can somebody be a borderline 'denier'? Surely, either you deny something or you don't. Such a description of Professor Nolte I believe demonstrates the vague and imprecise nature and usage of the perjorative term upon which this wiki article is based. Etc., etc., etc. So I agree, the article does not meet the GA criteria.Mystichumwipe (talk) 12:00, 23 June 2020 (UTC)[reply]

Norman Finkelstein is not a Holocaust denier, and it is not correct that the article says that "a deliberate Jewish conspiracy designed to advance the interest of Jews at the expense of other people" indicates Holocaust denial. You have it backwards: Holocaust deniers claim that the Holocaust is a deliberate conspiracy. Putting Finkelstein in the article would be a serious BLP violation. Otherwise I agree with your comments. Zero^talk 12:54, 23 June 2020 (UTC)[reply]

Hi Zero. You say Norman isn't. Others say he is. This is the problem with this wiki article, and with defining the correct usage of term or the accusation, as there is no consistent criteria. See here where Norman relates how he can't get any job: ‘Mr. Finkelstein told The Jewish Week, a local newspaper, that he doubted he could get even a job teaching high school. “The way they do background checks is to Google your name,” he said. “With me, they would get 30,000 Web sites, one-third of them saying I am a Holocaust denier...” https://www.chronicle.com/article/Closed-Out-Norman/41272 Mystichumwipe (talk) 14:45, 23 June 2020 (UTC)[reply]

We don't use Google counts as a reliable source, thankfully, so we won't have this rubbish in the article. Zero^talk 15:04, 23 June 2020 (UTC)[reply]

I hope you don't mind me saying that I think your last comment may have obfuscated the point, Zero. Finkelstein HAS been categorised as a 'holocaust denier', so he DOES fit the subject of this wiki article. His book 'The holocaust industry' DOES meet the criteria included in this article for designating someone a 'denier'. All that DOES therefore prove that particular criteria to be invalid, the justification for deeming someone fitting it an 'anti-semite' to be false, and thus the article to be very seriously flawed. There are other problematical aspects also. I can explain them, but is anyone else agreeing so far? If so, what shall we do if there is a consensus that the article — in its entirety — is agreed to be not fitting GA criteria? Mystichumwipe (talk) 19:34, 23 June 2020 (UTC)[reply]

Please cite a reliable source for these outlandish claims or strike them per WP:BLPTALK. b uidhe 19:48, 23 June 2020 (UTC)[reply]

Which do you regard as "outlandish claims"? Eisenhower WAS at Ohrdruf, not a "death camp". The article does have the problematic criteria I quoted by which Finkelstein classifies as both a 'denier' and an 'anti-semite. And both those classifications in his case I suggest ARE ludicrous. Mystichumwipe (talk) 12:41, 24 June 2020 (UTC)[reply]

The meaning of "Holocaust denial" in the article is given by the three bullet-points at the beginning. Finkelstein does not fit any of them. Rather than arguing for fewer Holocaust victims, Finkelstein argues that the "Holocaust industry" plays into the hands of deniers by exaggerating the number of survivors. It is the opposite of Holocaust denial. He also argues that hardly anyone would have even heard of Holocaust denial were it not for those opponents who keep it in the public attention for their own purposes. These are Finkelstein's opinions; as this is not a forum I will not state mine. He is not a Holocaust denier and does not belong in this article. Zero^talk 05:33, 24 June 2020 (UTC)[reply]

Our personal opinions don't count. Finkelstein HAS been smeared as a 'holocaust denier'. This article as it currently exists reinforces that ludicrous smear. Which demonstrates just one of the problematical issues with it that I previously outlined. Mystichumwipe (talk) 12:41, 24 June 2020 (UTC)[reply]

The intro states this: “Most Holocaust deniers claim, either explicitly or implicitly, that the Holocaust is a hoax — or an exaggeration — arising from a deliberate Jewish conspiracy designed to advance the interest of Jews at the expense of other people. For this reason, Holocaust denial is generally considered to be an antisemitic conspiracy theory”.

There are so many secondary sources that ascribe all of that to Finkelstein's book. Here is just one of many: “A central thesis to his work is that the Holocaust is exaggerated and exploited by American Jews for financial gain and to defend Israel”. [1]

If we can agree that Finkelstein does NOT meet the criteria of Holocaust denier, nor an anti-semite and does NOT merit a mention in this article, then that criteria needs to be amended. And this also supports my suggestion that others should also not be smeared by inclusion here and by association with this damaging, misused, perjorative term, e.g. Prof Nolte (see reasoning above). Mystichumwipe (talk) 07:23, 25 June 2020 (UTC)[reply]