Wikipedia:Good article reassessment/Moberly–Jourdain incident/1
Moberly–Jourdain incident[edit]
- Article (edit | visual edit | history) · Article talk (edit | history) · Watch • • GAN review not found
- Result: After more than six months of consideration, a consensus has not emerged on whether or not the article's flaws are sufficient to merit delisting.Challenger.rebecca (talk) 02:29, 4 March 2016 (UTC)
This article is written about an "incident" which almost certainly did not occur. The claimants of the incident wrote a book on the topic and we currently have a suggestion to move the article to that book. However, the reason that the reassessment is in order here is that the article simply is not very good in terms of the high-standards we expect for articles relating to fringe theories. The article does not deal substantively enough with the fact that the events did not occur as described by the claimants and gives a false undue weight with an equal validity to ideas which are not verifiable facts. In short, the article fails GA criteria number 4 rather plainly and arguably criteria 2c as it pushes a particular narrative with respect to this story -- namely that the "incident" occurred and that the debunking of the alleged incident is just another person's opinion rather than the fact that we should simply assert -- that this is a fabulist claim. jps (talk) 12:33, 21 August 2015 (UTC)
- The history of the article is that it was first written based on credulist sources and was given a GA based on that (in my opinion unwisely). I rewrote it on the basis of more objective sources and in my opinion it is now better than it was when it got the GA. However, it is now a different article and I would have no objection to the GA being removed because of that, although I find the reasons that you give to be spurious. Of course the incident occured! The women went for a walk in the gardens at Versailles and wrote a book about their experience. That was the incident. There is no problem with Wikipedia having articles about fabulist claims. Xxanthippe (talk) 02:42, 22 August 2015 (UTC).
- "Incident" in this context clearly leads the reader to believe that something eventful happened. The purported event is an "episode of time travel and haunting", not merely a walk in the garden. If their walk was the essential bit of importance, we would call this Moberly–Jourdain garden walk but it is not. If the title is to be accurate and relay what is essentially important about the subject, we could call this Moberly–Jourdain allegations or Moberly–Jourdain haunting and time travel allegations. Better yet, since this is a story from their book An Adventure, let's call it An Adventure (book). - Location (talk) 18:28, 31 August 2015 (UTC)
- We should not be taking our cue from sensationalist and fringe sources that treat the topic as a paranormal Fortean "incident" when high quality scholarly sources rightly identify the book (and reaction to the book) as the primary basis for notability. Wikipedia as a serious mainstream encyclopedia should follow high quality sources. - LuckyLouie (talk) 20:02, 31 August 2015 (UTC)
- The fact that a book has been published by Oxford University Press does not automatically render it higher quality source than a book from a different publisher. Terry Castle's critique is rightly quoted and referenced in the article as it stands but his critique is a critique of the ladies' claims, which happen to be contained in their book, "An Adventure". But it is the claims that have notability. Michael Coleman's analysis is at least as thorough but reaches a different, but equally sceptical, conclusion.Liverpres (talk) 20:51, 31 August 2015 (UTC)
- Terry Castle is a literary scholar and Oxford University Press is the largest university press in the world. Who are Michael H. Coleman and Aquarian Press? Even so, that's not to say that Coleman cannot be used. The question is about how best to structure the article. - Location (talk) 21:36, 31 August 2015 (UTC)
- Well, there are at least three interlinked, but different, rational explanations of what the ladies said they experienced in the article. On the basis that the simplest explanation probably works best, Coleman's suggestion (on the basis of a close study of the original papers which are housed at the Bodleian Library, one of the world's greatest academic repositories - they wisely did not throw them away as credulous nonsense as some Wikipedians might) that they mostly made it up, having come to believe that something odd had happened to them on a hot thundery day after a long and tiring walk (though their original accounts differed both from each other and from the first published version), seems more likely than a lesbian folie a deux which is Castle's invention in the absence of any other evidence, or stumbling into a gay fancy dress party which may well not have happened on the day on question. I'm aware that that's a synthesis so can't go into the article, but the way it's presented here does need to take account of the fact that the reason the whole thing is still known about is because it was originally presented as a true account of a supernatural experience, not as a work of literary fiction.Liverpres (talk) 22:07, 31 August 2015 (UTC)
- Here's Michael Coleman. Always more interesting, I feel, to have a possible "believer" coming to a sceptical conclusion, than someone who has already made up their mind http://weiserantiquarian.com/Dr.M.H.Coleman/ One of the things that makes Mike Dash's contributions to similar subjects so much more stimulating than some others Liverpres (talk) 22:19, 31 August 2015 (UTC)
- Thanks for the link. Coleman was a member of the Society for Psychical Research, which hurts rather than helps his credibility if we are attempting to build an article upon reliable sources. Even that bio states: "he contributed a volume of his own to the literature of Psychical Research: 'The Ghosts of Trianon,' a book length study of Moberly and Jourdain's 'An Adventure,' their famous account of a haunting or 'time-shift' said to have taken place in the grounds of the Petit Trianon near the Palace of Versailles in 1901." The emphasis is mine, drawing attention to the point that he wrote a book about a book. Stories, fiction and non-fiction, are part of books and we title our articles after the book. That is why we have The Catcher in the Rye and not Holden Caulfield's journey to New York. - Location (talk) 23:21, 31 August 2015 (UTC)
- No, he wrote a book about their claims, which he examined and debunked. It's also the only single volume to contain both the published versions of "An Adventure" (in fact, it's the most recently-available paper version of the text), and simply being a member of the SPR does not make someone unreliable, I see that in the Enfield Poltergeist article, the views of SPR members who were sceptical are boosted as being better than those of members who weren't.Liverpres (talk) 23:36, 31 August 2015 (UTC)
- Liverpres, no need to worry that structuring the article as An Adventure (book) will cast the book as a work of literary fiction. It will only help us clarify that Moberly and Jourdain wrote a book which purported to be a true account of a supernatural incident. Right now, the article structure has it backwards: i.e. a supernatural incident happened and Moberly and Jourdain wrote a true account of it. Also you need not worry that all the whimsical detail will be lost, a nice "Summary" section can house a neutral description of all the fanciful claims contained in their book. - LuckyLouie (talk) 23:43, 31 August 2015 (UTC)
- Well, I'm not sure that "An Adventure (book) covers, as a title for the article, the way whatever happened is seen now, it is more easily found by the names of the protagonists. And that being the case, the possibility of English-speaking Wikipedia users with an interest in the subject finding the article must be reduced. It is difficult, but from my own interest in this, it appears that the names of the protagonists are more likely to be looked for than the name of their book. French Wikipedia goes with https://fr.wikipedia.org/wiki/Fant%C3%B4mes_du_Trianon the "Ghosts of the Trianon". Liverpres (talk) 23:51, 31 August 2015 (UTC)
- People who come from GodlikeProductions.com, GhostTheory.com, or Doctor-who-is-real.tumblr.com searching for "Moberly-Jourdain incident" will be whisked to our article via a clever little thing called a redirect (similar to people who now search for Ghosts of Petit Trianon get redirected to the article). Any other concerns? - LuckyLouie (talk) 00:18, 1 September 2015 (UTC)
- Yes. There does seem as I look around to be a small clique of Wikipedia editors who want all paranormal articles to be relocated to places where the paranormal element is removed, even though it may be the most important (not most believable) factor. The removal of Timeslip being a case in point.Liverpres (talk) 00:49, 1 September 2015 (UTC)
- I see no good reason to move the article from where it is, the suggestion it should be moved appears to be unfounded, when one reads the reasons originally advanced for a move, they are just one user's prejudices. Liverpres (talk) 01:05, 1 September 2015 (UTC)
- Well, we have a few options to solicit feedback on whether the suggestion to move is unfounded (e.g. Wikipedia:Requested moves, Wikipedia talk:Manual of Style/Titles, Wikipedia talk:WikiProject Books). - Location (talk) 01:13, 1 September 2015 (UTC)
- In terms of this being a "Good Article", which is what this page is about, I'd compare and contrast with, for example Talk:Borley_Rectory/GA1/ - Moberly-Jourdain incident really doesn't require the scepticism that is being pushed by the original nominator, for example. Nor does it require a move to a less accessible title.Liverpres (talk) 01:31, 1 September 2015 (UTC)
- I see you've gone straight to Borley Rectory to start pushing a sceptical view there.... Liverpres (talk) 01:37, 1 September 2015 (UTC)
- The only view I'm pushing is that Wikipedia is a mainstream encyclopedia. - LuckyLouie (talk) 01:42, 1 September 2015 (UTC)
- (edit conflict) I'm not familiar with that article, so you must mean LuckyLouie. I don't see that the title of the article is an issue there. - Location (talk) 01:45, 1 September 2015 (UTC)
- I see you've gone straight to Borley Rectory to start pushing a sceptical view there.... Liverpres (talk) 01:37, 1 September 2015 (UTC)
- In terms of this being a "Good Article", which is what this page is about, I'd compare and contrast with, for example Talk:Borley_Rectory/GA1/ - Moberly-Jourdain incident really doesn't require the scepticism that is being pushed by the original nominator, for example. Nor does it require a move to a less accessible title.Liverpres (talk) 01:31, 1 September 2015 (UTC)
- Well, we have a few options to solicit feedback on whether the suggestion to move is unfounded (e.g. Wikipedia:Requested moves, Wikipedia talk:Manual of Style/Titles, Wikipedia talk:WikiProject Books). - Location (talk) 01:13, 1 September 2015 (UTC)
- People who come from GodlikeProductions.com, GhostTheory.com, or Doctor-who-is-real.tumblr.com searching for "Moberly-Jourdain incident" will be whisked to our article via a clever little thing called a redirect (similar to people who now search for Ghosts of Petit Trianon get redirected to the article). Any other concerns? - LuckyLouie (talk) 00:18, 1 September 2015 (UTC)
- Well, I'm not sure that "An Adventure (book) covers, as a title for the article, the way whatever happened is seen now, it is more easily found by the names of the protagonists. And that being the case, the possibility of English-speaking Wikipedia users with an interest in the subject finding the article must be reduced. It is difficult, but from my own interest in this, it appears that the names of the protagonists are more likely to be looked for than the name of their book. French Wikipedia goes with https://fr.wikipedia.org/wiki/Fant%C3%B4mes_du_Trianon the "Ghosts of the Trianon". Liverpres (talk) 23:51, 31 August 2015 (UTC)
- Liverpres, no need to worry that structuring the article as An Adventure (book) will cast the book as a work of literary fiction. It will only help us clarify that Moberly and Jourdain wrote a book which purported to be a true account of a supernatural incident. Right now, the article structure has it backwards: i.e. a supernatural incident happened and Moberly and Jourdain wrote a true account of it. Also you need not worry that all the whimsical detail will be lost, a nice "Summary" section can house a neutral description of all the fanciful claims contained in their book. - LuckyLouie (talk) 23:43, 31 August 2015 (UTC)
- No, he wrote a book about their claims, which he examined and debunked. It's also the only single volume to contain both the published versions of "An Adventure" (in fact, it's the most recently-available paper version of the text), and simply being a member of the SPR does not make someone unreliable, I see that in the Enfield Poltergeist article, the views of SPR members who were sceptical are boosted as being better than those of members who weren't.Liverpres (talk) 23:36, 31 August 2015 (UTC)
- Thanks for the link. Coleman was a member of the Society for Psychical Research, which hurts rather than helps his credibility if we are attempting to build an article upon reliable sources. Even that bio states: "he contributed a volume of his own to the literature of Psychical Research: 'The Ghosts of Trianon,' a book length study of Moberly and Jourdain's 'An Adventure,' their famous account of a haunting or 'time-shift' said to have taken place in the grounds of the Petit Trianon near the Palace of Versailles in 1901." The emphasis is mine, drawing attention to the point that he wrote a book about a book. Stories, fiction and non-fiction, are part of books and we title our articles after the book. That is why we have The Catcher in the Rye and not Holden Caulfield's journey to New York. - Location (talk) 23:21, 31 August 2015 (UTC)
- Here's Michael Coleman. Always more interesting, I feel, to have a possible "believer" coming to a sceptical conclusion, than someone who has already made up their mind http://weiserantiquarian.com/Dr.M.H.Coleman/ One of the things that makes Mike Dash's contributions to similar subjects so much more stimulating than some others Liverpres (talk) 22:19, 31 August 2015 (UTC)
- Well, there are at least three interlinked, but different, rational explanations of what the ladies said they experienced in the article. On the basis that the simplest explanation probably works best, Coleman's suggestion (on the basis of a close study of the original papers which are housed at the Bodleian Library, one of the world's greatest academic repositories - they wisely did not throw them away as credulous nonsense as some Wikipedians might) that they mostly made it up, having come to believe that something odd had happened to them on a hot thundery day after a long and tiring walk (though their original accounts differed both from each other and from the first published version), seems more likely than a lesbian folie a deux which is Castle's invention in the absence of any other evidence, or stumbling into a gay fancy dress party which may well not have happened on the day on question. I'm aware that that's a synthesis so can't go into the article, but the way it's presented here does need to take account of the fact that the reason the whole thing is still known about is because it was originally presented as a true account of a supernatural experience, not as a work of literary fiction.Liverpres (talk) 22:07, 31 August 2015 (UTC)
- Terry Castle is a literary scholar and Oxford University Press is the largest university press in the world. Who are Michael H. Coleman and Aquarian Press? Even so, that's not to say that Coleman cannot be used. The question is about how best to structure the article. - Location (talk) 21:36, 31 August 2015 (UTC)
- The fact that a book has been published by Oxford University Press does not automatically render it higher quality source than a book from a different publisher. Terry Castle's critique is rightly quoted and referenced in the article as it stands but his critique is a critique of the ladies' claims, which happen to be contained in their book, "An Adventure". But it is the claims that have notability. Michael Coleman's analysis is at least as thorough but reaches a different, but equally sceptical, conclusion.Liverpres (talk) 20:51, 31 August 2015 (UTC)
- We should not be taking our cue from sensationalist and fringe sources that treat the topic as a paranormal Fortean "incident" when high quality scholarly sources rightly identify the book (and reaction to the book) as the primary basis for notability. Wikipedia as a serious mainstream encyclopedia should follow high quality sources. - LuckyLouie (talk) 20:02, 31 August 2015 (UTC)
- "Incident" in this context clearly leads the reader to believe that something eventful happened. The purported event is an "episode of time travel and haunting", not merely a walk in the garden. If their walk was the essential bit of importance, we would call this Moberly–Jourdain garden walk but it is not. If the title is to be accurate and relay what is essentially important about the subject, we could call this Moberly–Jourdain allegations or Moberly–Jourdain haunting and time travel allegations. Better yet, since this is a story from their book An Adventure, let's call it An Adventure (book). - Location (talk) 18:28, 31 August 2015 (UTC)