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August 7[edit]

Article won't appear in my watchlist[edit]

Here's an odd one. I edited Interstate 405 (California) and as a watched article it appeared in my watchlist fine. Then I refreshed my watchlist and it vanished. Now it doesn't appear. I have set it to unwatch and back but this makes no difference. It appears in my raw watchlist. Is there anything I can do to purge any kind of cache etc. Can someone else try adding it and see if it exhibits the same behavior for them? I have never had an article do this before. Mfield (talk) 00:03, 7 August 2008 (UTC)[reply]

It appears on my watchlist after adding it. The latest edit is currently a minor bot edit. Do you have a checkmark at "Hide minor edits from the watchlist" or "Hide bot edits from the watchlist" under the Watchlist tab in your preferences? PrimeHunter (talk) 00:13, 7 August 2008 (UTC)[reply]

(ec) I added it to my watchlist and refreshed it and it still appears properly. Did you try it with another web browser? Best wishes, —αἰτίας •discussion• 00:15, 7 August 2008 (UTC)[reply]

Duh, thanks. I had bot edits hidden for some reason. Mfield (talk) 00:58, 7 August 2008 (UTC)[reply]

Minor and Bot edits[edit]

Piggy backing on this thread, is there a way to permanently change the default setting for the three modifiers, “Hide bot edits | Hide my edits | Hide minor edits ? Thanks. DOR (HK) (talk) 01:14, 7 August 2008 (UTC)[reply]

See Special:Preferences -> Watchlist tab -> Hide my/bot/minor edits from the watchlist. Hersfold ^(t/a/c) 01:59, 7 August 2008 (UTC)[reply]

Can't update an XLS file on Wikipedia[edit]

The Hugo Chávez article features a chart of a few economic indicators that I originally made in 2006. This chart is made by plugging in the data from WDI/IEA/etc... into an Excel spreadsheet, copy-pasting the graphs into MS Paint, and saving as PNG:

The PNG image is here: http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Image:Venezuela_Economic_Indicators.png
The XLS file is here: http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Image:Venezuela_Economic_Indicators.xls

As you can see, in 2006, I had absolutely no problem uploading an XLS file. However, now, Wikipedia refuses my update to this existing XLS file.

What can I do?

Loisel (talk) 00:24, 7 August 2008 (UTC)[reply]

You can no longer upload .xls files, and that one probably qualifies for speedy deletion. The only valid file extensions now are: .png, .gif, .jpg, .jpeg, .xcf, .pdf, .mid, .ogg, .ogv, .svg, and .djvu. Hersfold ^(t/a/c) 00:29, 7 August 2008 (UTC)[reply]

Is it entirely necessary to have the .xls file on Wikipedia? I don't see that it's used in any articles. Hersfold ^(t/a/c) 00:30, 7 August 2008 (UTC)[reply]

It's not used in any article, but it is necessary on Wikipedia for the following reason. As I said above, I edit the data in the Excel file, then export it as a PNG. The PNG file itself is not really usable by other editors if they want to modify the graph. If other editors want to modify the graph, they need my XLS file. It's linked to on the page of the PNG image.

I could host the XLS file, but what happens two years from now when I have been abducted by aliens and the link is dead? Loisel (talk) 00:40, 7 August 2008 (UTC)[reply]

You'll probably to host it yourself. Since excel spreadsheets can contain malicious code, we don't allow them to be uploaded any more, so at this point the spreadsheet is out of date and simply taking up space. We can't tweak the restriction for this one file, unfortunately. As for what happens in your absence, please make sure your email is enabled, so if you ever leave the project, someone can try to contact you for the file. If that doesn't work, then someone can always pull it off from scratch if they absolutely have to. Hersfold ^(t/a/c) 00:47, 7 August 2008 (UTC)[reply]

P.S. - If you don't mind, I'd like to go ahead and speedy the local file. If there's anything you need to get off of it, please get it know, and post here when it's ok to delete it. I won't delete it until I hear from you. Hersfold ^(t/a/c) 00:49, 7 August 2008 (UTC)[reply]

I guess, thems are the breaks. Loisel (talk) 01:27, 7 August 2008 (UTC)[reply]

(undent) Can you export the Excel file to a Comma-separated values file? A CSV file is plain text, so you could paste it onto a user subpage, for example, along with instructions for importing it back into Excel and generating graphs from it. --Teratornis (talk) 04:11, 7 August 2008 (UTC)[reply]

Another option might be to upload your spreadsheet to Google Docs and link to it from a Wikipedia talk page or user page. (I don't think Google Docs pages satisfy WP:EL for articles.) --Teratornis (talk) 06:27, 7 August 2008 (UTC)[reply]

Need an Administrator to block an article[edit]

Hi. I need an administrator to block the Irshad Manji‎ article from IP address attackers. Where can I find one? Sonic99 (talk) 01:49, 7 August 2008 (UTC)[reply]

The term is "protect". Requests for page protection is what you want. Ten Pound Hammer and his otters • ^{(Broken clamshells • Otter chirps • HELP)} 01:50, 7 August 2008 (UTC)[reply]

Need Userbox[edit]

I need to get a userbox on my profile page, how would I do that? I need one of the Dragonball Z Taskforce userbox on it --Gokuslilbrother 02:15, 7 August 2008 (UTC)

I clicked the edit link at Wikipedia:WikiProject Anime and manga/Dragon Ball#Participants and saw these:

You can copy one of them to your user page. Userbox2 has an image with a 'Z'. PrimeHunter (talk) 02:28, 7 August 2008 (UTC)[reply]

Getting commons.wikimedia.org into en.wikipedia.org article[edit]

Hi. How do I get this image[1] into this[2] article? Thanks. Suntag (talk) 03:18, 7 August 2008 (UTC)[reply]

Same as you would if it was uploaded here. Type [[Image:Ken_amherstIMG_1015.jpg|thumb|add a caption here]] where you want the image to be placed. Help:Images can give you some more tips. Hersfold ^(t/a/c) 03:20, 7 August 2008 (UTC)[reply]

Thanks! Suntag (talk) 16:24, 7 August 2008 (UTC)[reply]

Adding a 'See also' section[edit]

All I want to do is add a See also section at the bottom of the List of indoor arenas in the United States article. Every time I try the See also section is appearing halfway up the page, rather than at the bottom. Could some kind soul please add a See also section with a link to the List of U.S. stadiums by capacity article, and explain to me why it wasnt working. Thanks. Willy turner (talk) 04:06, 7 August 2008 (UTC)[reply]

The problem appears to be an unclosed wikitable near the end of the article. I tried closing the wikitable by appending the missing |} and previewing. That puts the See also section in the right place, but the appearance of the huge table changes quite a bit. I don't quite understand what is going on there, so I did not save my changes. --Teratornis (talk) 04:45, 7 August 2008 (UTC)[reply]

It wasn't working because the table code wasn't closed with |}. − Twas Now ( talk • contribs • e-mail ) 04:46, 7 August 2008 (UTC)[reply]

Thanks Willy turner (talk) 07:12, 7 August 2008 (UTC)[reply]

Ugh that article is hard on the eyes! Suggest that the various lists be broken out into their own articles (with the content in sortable tables rather than plain lists) and what's with the highlighting in the final table? – ukexpat (talk) 13:23, 7 August 2008 (UTC)[reply]

Question about linking[edit]

(This question is all in 'nowiki' for clarity.)

[[PageOneHundred|100]] displays "100" but provides a link to PageOneHundred.

Is it possible to provide a URL but display something else instead of the URL?

For example, [[<http://www.whateveritis.xxx>|Whatever]], where only the word "Whatever" is displayed. This code provides the link but it also displays the URL.

Wanderer57 (talk) 04:38, 7 August 2008 (UTC)[reply]

[http://www.LINK.com Link] − Twas Now ( talk • contribs • e-mail ) 04:40, 7 August 2008 (UTC)[reply]

(ec) Yes. This text is displayed and this text is displayed without the external link icon. Hope this helps. WODUP 04:42, 7 August 2008 (UTC)[reply]

See Help:Link for the detailed instructions. --Teratornis (talk) 04:51, 7 August 2008 (UTC)[reply]

Thank you all. This help system is amazing. Wanderer57 (talk) 04:55, 7 August 2008 (UTC)[reply]

I agree. I've never seen technical support that is better than Wikipedia's Help desk and other help pages, thanks to the pool of volunteer helpers who seem to know everything there is to know about Wikipedia (or where to look if they don't know), the power of wikitext markup, and having answers to just about every possible question already in writing and easily linkable. Not to mention our search tools ({{Google wikipedia}}, {{Google custom}}, {{Google help desk}}, {{Help desk searches}}, etc.) and the Editor's index. --Teratornis (talk) 06:23, 7 August 2008 (UTC)[reply]

Can I flag it without editing it?[edit]

I really hope I'm not overlooking the obvious, but I went through the FAQ's and still feel confused. I was reading an article in which the author makes an assertion about a church organization that is very obviously based on personal opinion and which lends the article an unprofessional and offensive tone. My question is, is there a way to flag an article as containing unverified and biased content without going in and rewriting the section myself? I'm not familiar with the main subject of the article, and don't want to start editing it for fear of misrepresenting the person whom the article is about.

Here are specific details:

The article is titled "C. Jay Cox". The section in question is found in the second half of the paragraph under the heading Biography. The author states that coming out as gay is "considered an abomination" in the Church of Jesus Christ of Latter-Day Saints, and that it was "made very clear" to C. Jay Cox that "a person could either be gay or they could be Mormon". It should also be mentioned that the grammar in that last phrase is not good. In fact, the two sentences before the one containing that phrase have grammar problems; one especially is very grammatically jumbled and incorrectly structured. I feel that the author addressed the subject of homosexuality and Mormonism without understanding or professionalism.

Thejabberwockfortea (talk) —Preceding undated comment was added at 06:25, 7 August 2008 (UTC)[reply]

I'm guessing you meant C. Jay Cox. If you have concerns you may want to use some of the templates listed at Wikipedia:Template messages, specifically Wikipedia:Template messages/Disputes. See if any of the templates there fit the bill. You can use larger templates that are placed at the top of the article like {{POV}}, but it is sometimes helpful to use something specific in the lines you are talking about like {{or}} or {{fact}}. Look through those templates see which one best represents your opinion, and after tagging try to leave some kind of explanation on the article's talk page with your concerns. -Optigan13 (talk) 06:34, 7 August 2008 (UTC)[reply]

Perhaps the biggest problem (per Wikipedia's biographies of living persons policy) is that the sentence you mention does not cite a source. The phrases you quoted don't seem particularly implausible, because I'd expect an openly gay Mormon to have some problems with his church (i.e., "openly" as in "practicing"). See Homosexuality and The Church of Jesus Christ of Latter-day Saints. But due to the sensitivity of this sort of issue, Wikipedia must tread carefully, and the article could be better. For example, "it was made very clear" does not state who made it very clear, so that phrase violates WP:WEASEL. You could express your concerns on Talk:C. Jay Cox. Any potentially controversial statements about a living person must have reliable sources. See WP:CITE, WP:FOOT, and WP:CITET for more information about how we do that. If you want to flag an article, we have lots of messagebox templates for flagging articles with various problems. --Teratornis (talk) 06:46, 7 August 2008 (UTC)[reply]

No, there's nothing like what you're looking for. No matter how you do it, there's no way to flag grammer (or anything else) that needs to be fixed without editing the page. You'd have to edit the page to put up a template that would autolink the page in "work done" categories, etc. Either way, you're going to have to edit the page, so you might as well just jump in and fix the grammatical error. ;) Banaticus (talk) 12:19, 7 August 2008 (UTC)[reply]

Are such articles allowed?[edit]

I've been looking at some bus articles in London. They are all listed here - List of bus routes in London. I read somewhere that directory style pages arent allowed here. So are pages like London Buses route 206 allowed? I was trying to find out about London buses but instead I found a clutter of pages on every single bus route listing things like price, route maps etc but not much information I would expect to find in an encyclopedia. Sorry if this isn't the right place to ask this question. Clover345 (talk) 09:51, 7 August 2008 (UTC)[reply]

I can tell you from the start that they are indeed allowed, since we have so many. Most of them, as you note, need to be cleaned up. I'm trying to locate a guideline for these specific types of articles right now for you. Synergy 10:30, 7 August 2008 (UTC)[reply]

IF you look at Talk:List of bus routes in London, you will see it is part of Wikipedia:WikiProject buses— they have guidelines. --—— Gadget850 (Ed) ^talk - 11:45, 7 August 2008 (UTC)[reply]

Gadgets in Firefox (2)[edit]

Hi, I'm re posting because I didn't really get what I needed from my earlier question, see Wikipedia:Help_desk#Gadgets_in_Firefox. Best to try again before it goes to archive heaven. I'm trying to use the Gadgets in my personal mediawiki wiki on the Firefox extension Greasemonkey. So far I've tried all the gadgets by simply coping the code from the monobook pages into Greasemonkey, but none work except WikiED. I can't figure out why wikiED works but popups and the others don't. Trust it would be the Gadget I don't want that works :( Anyway, if someone knows a way or has a link to a site that can tell me how to make the Gadgets work, please. I can't put them in my monobook because I erase the wiki every so often and reinstall. Thank you very much for your help. ZapThunderstrike (talk) 12:12, 7 August 2008 (UTC)[reply]

If no one is able to answer better this time around, you can next try MediaWiki's Project:Support desk.--Fuhghettaboutit (talk) 12:33, 7 August 2008 (UTC)[reply]

Before you ask on mw:Project:Support desk, try searching the Web for clues about this problem. Also clarify why you want to do whatever you are trying to do. There is often more than one way to reach your actual goal ("describe your goal, not only your step"). --Teratornis (talk) 16:54, 7 August 2008 (UTC)[reply]

I've asked at mw:Project:Support desk but I'd still like someone here to answer because all the questions over there seem to go unanswered. Why? I have a local Wiki and I'd like to use the scripts without installing, because I regularly erase it and start a new installation. It would be enormously helpful if I could run them from my Firefox browser using Greasemonkey to avoid having to reinstall the scripts each time. ZapThunderstrike (talk) 13:08, 8 August 2008 (UTC)[reply]

Link on http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Software_Asset_Managemen in incorrect[edit]

Reference No 9 =

^ "Getting a head start in Software Asset Management", Managing software for improved cost control, better security and reduced risk, Centennial Software, September 2007, pp. 2

is incorrect and should point to: "http://www.centennial-software.com/resources/whitepapers/download.html?action=mini&wpid=137"

Regards

Chris (aka Webmaster@Centennial-Software.com) —Preceding unsigned comment added by Mr2madness (talk • contribs) 13:44, 7 August 2008 (UTC)[reply]

Thank you! I've switched out the links. Next time you see a mistake, be bold and fix it! Paragon12321 (talk) 14:05, 7 August 2008 (UTC)[reply]

In order to edit a reference, first click the little up arrow ^ at it and then edit the section you arrive at where the reference text should be. See more at Wikipedia:Footnotes. PrimeHunter (talk) 14:50, 7 August 2008 (UTC)[reply]

Aeronautics and Software[edit]

To what extend does software is related to aeronautics and give some examples with illustrations? —Preceding unsigned comment added by Vadamankarthi (talk • contribs) 17:17, 7 August 2008 (UTC)[reply]

This page is for questions about using Wikipedia. Please consider asking this question at the Wikipedia:Reference desk. They specialize in knowledge questions and will try to answer any question in the universe (except how to use Wikipedia, since that is what this Help Desk is for). Just follow the link, select the relevant section, and ask away. You could always try searching Wikipedia for an article related to the topic you want to know more about. I hope this helps. Regards, --Kanonkas : Talk 17:22, 7 August 2008 (UTC)[reply]

See Avionics, Computational fluid dynamics, and {{dyoh}}. --Teratornis (talk) 17:53, 7 August 2008 (UTC)[reply]

Odwalla Ref Questions[edit]

Hi. I'm working on the Odwalla article, and I added a list of products that Odwalla produces. I took this info from the Odwalla website, [[3]], which is some sort of flash website without a URL for each page, which makes it hard to cite the info (the URL always says www.odwalla.com). I've tried finding a list of products using google, but all the reliable ones are outdated and don't list all of the products. So my question is, how do I cite the site? I've been doing [http://www.odwalla.com "Smoothies"]. Retrieved August 7, 2008. In the "Products" section. Is that good? Thanks ahead of time! Intothewoods29 (talk) 17:32, 7 August 2008 (UTC)[reply]

You don't need to cite each item, just add a cite to the text at the beginning of the Products section. In my opinion, trying to build a comprehensive list of products is not that useful— you should concentrate on the notable products and overall expansion of the article. You should also consider using one of the Wikipedia:Citation templates. --—— Gadget850 (Ed) ^talk - 17:56, 7 August 2008 (UTC)[reply]

See WP:INDISCRIMINATE. Wikipedia might create comprehensive lists of things that individually have reliable sources. See for example List of wild mammal species of Florida (which is a featured list, by the way). It's unlikely that most vendor product catalogs would consist entirely of notable products. If Odwalla uses Adobe Flash to power their site, then they aren't facilitating the kind of information re-factoring we do on Wikipedia, by defeating incoming links to their specific product pages. --Teratornis (talk) 19:55, 7 August 2008 (UTC)[reply]

Norwich School of Art and Design[edit]

This art school has been renamed Norwich University College of the Arts, its official title since 1st August. Unfortunately I have no idea how to change an article's name. Can anyone help? Thanks, She'sGotSpies (talk) 17:52, 7 August 2008 (UTC)[reply]

Click the "move" tab at the top of the article and type the new title. See WP:MOVE for more info. Happy editing! Scottydude _talk 17:55, 7 August 2008 (UTC)[reply]

Many thanks for the quick response! She'sGotSpies (talk) 18:08, 7 August 2008 (UTC)[reply]

Metagross[edit]

I just fixed Metagross, a redirect as resulted from a merge, since it linked to "List of Pokemon (361-380)," but it linked to the wrong section. It linked to the section "Beldum," and not "Metagross," so I fixed it. I hope you don't mind, and I seriously hope I wasn't vandalizing anything by making that edit.Kitty53 (talk) 17:59, 7 August 2008 (UTC)[reply]

Looks OK to me. If you break something, someone else will notice and come along and fix it. --—— Gadget850 (Ed) ^talk - 18:20, 7 August 2008 (UTC)[reply]

Logo help[edit]

Can someone help out with adding a logo to an article? This isn't something I do often, and I'd rather not screw it up... don't really have time today to dig into it. The logo is at [[Image:TelecareTV JPEG.jpg]] and the article is Telecare (TV network). The logo was provided to OTRS by the network general manager. Thanks! - Philippe 18:53, 7 August 2008 (UTC)[reply]

Done. It was actually at Telecare (TV Network), by the way. I've moved it to better comply with Wikipedia norms for capitalization in titles. Algebraist 19:03, 7 August 2008 (UTC)[reply]

Fantastic, thank you for your help! - Philippe 19:51, 7 August 2008 (UTC)[reply]

Finding old material in an updated site[edit]

I found some interesting information about one of the sites on Wikipedia about a year ago. When I went to the same site recently, I could not find that same information. I feel as though it must have been edited out or dropped. Is there a way to access older versions of Wikipedia or a way to find out what information from this site has been edited?

Thanks, Nathan —Preceding unsigned comment added by 208.224.209.100 (talk) 20:04, 7 August 2008 (UTC)[reply]

It sounds like you are looking for an article. Do you remember the title? It would help us point you to the right place. TN‑X-Man 20:05, 7 August 2008 (UTC)[reply]

If you already know the article name, just go to it and click the "history" tab. It'll list all the changes ever made to that page. Calvin 1998 ^(t-c) 20:08, 7 August 2008 (UTC)[reply]

inclusion of an individual;s life history[edit]

i am writing to ask how do i forward you mention information of a departed high profile individual who i feel neeeds to have his life history entered on Wikipedia

thanking you in advancee

149.254.192.192 (talk) 20:18, 7 August 2008 (UTC)[reply]

You see, the point of Wikipedia is that anyone can write it. If you create an account, you are technically allowed to create an article on this person yourself, however, please carefully read the relevant policies: Wikipedia:Conflicts of interest, Wikipedia:Notability (people), and Wikipedia:Verifiability. Wikipedia:Your first article would also be important to read. Calvin 1998 ^(t-c) 20:22, 7 August 2008 (UTC)[reply]

You will need to first register an account, which has many benefits, including the ability to create articles. Once you have registered, please search Wikipedia first to make sure that an article does not already exist on the subject. Please also review a few of our relevant policies and guidelines which all articles should comport with. As Wikipedia is an encyclopedia, articles must not contain original research, must be written from a neutral point of view, should cite to reliable sources which verify their content and must not contain unsourced, negative content about living people.

Articles must also demonstrate the notability of the subject. Please see our subject specific guidelines for people, bands and musicians, companies and organizations and web content and note that if you are closely associated with the subject, our conflict of interest guideline strongly recommends against you creating the article.

If you still think an article is appropriate, see Help:Starting a new page. You might also look at Wikipedia:Your first article and Wikipedia:How to write a great article for guidance, and please consider taking a tour through the Wikipedia:Tutorial so that you know how to properly format the article before creation. GlassCobra 20:24, 7 August 2008 (UTC)[reply]

In addition to the above, it should be noted that Wikipedia is not a memorial service. Please be sure that the subject of your article is truly notable. -- ShinmaWa^(talk) 02:36, 8 August 2008 (UTC)[reply]

North Carolina Museum of Life and Science has changed thier name to Museum of Life and Science[edit]

I edited the wikipedia article to reflect the change, but the title still says North Carolina. —Preceding unsigned comment added by Lifeandscience (talk • contribs) 21:31, 7 August 2008 (UTC)[reply]

There might be (and probably are) numerous places called "Museum of Life and Science", and that page would best be served as a disambiguation page to each article. − Twas Now ( talk • contribs • e-mail ) 21:35, 7 August 2008 (UTC)[reply]

Hmm, after a brief search of both Wikipedia and Google, there doesn't appear to be other notable museums with that name. − Twas Now ( talk • contribs • e-mail ) 21:38, 7 August 2008 (UTC)[reply]

That appears to have been already done. The first sentence of the article Museum of Life and Science reads "The Museum of Life and Science (formerly the North Carolina Museum of Life and Science or NCMLS and originally called the NC Children's Museum) is...". - Icewedge (talk) 06:54, 8 August 2008 (UTC)[reply]

Is this spam or not?[edit]

Is this page "User:Dudleybus/Template:Utw" which is transcluded to many pages a spam link? It does not look neutral to me and the linked website has adverts. Snowman (talk) 21:53, 7 August 2008 (UTC)[reply]

The template is {{utw}} which redirects to that page. I'm going to remove the redirect and replace it with a similar template using {{FreeContentMeta}} which, I think, is the correct thing to do. x42bn6 Talk Mess 22:09, 7 August 2008 (UTC)[reply]

I'm aware that half the pages its on don't have a corresponding article at the UK Transport Wiki, at least from first glance, and I'll take this up with the user. x42bn6 Talk Mess 22:17, 7 August 2008 (UTC)[reply]

Floating box on user talk page is now over-writing text[edit]

Since Nov 2007 I've had a small box at the bottom of my user talk page, saying that I'll reply on that page. It used to float below the last message. In the last couple of days it's started to over-write the last message instead. I think the code I've got is the same as {{UserTalkReplyhere}} and the same effect appears on the other pages using that template. Has the format of User Talk pages changed in the last few days, so that this template now doesn't quite work? Can you suggest how to fix it? PamD (talk) 22:14, 7 August 2008 (UTC)[reply]

Have you tried replacing your code with just the template {{UserTalkReplyhere}}? It might be interesting to see if the problem is occuring for both the template and your copied code (I don't know why there would be a difference... but you never know). -- Natalya 00:20, 8 August 2008 (UTC)[reply]

Are you using the same browser? The CSS in that template works differently for IE and FF. --—— Gadget850 (Ed) ^talk - 00:50, 8 August 2008 (UTC)[reply]

That might have been directed at PamD, but I'm in Opera, and the box is overwriting the text for me. -- Natalya 01:15, 8 August 2008 (UTC)[reply]

The template is working as it always has, even though it is rather broken (it opens two div's, but only closes one). The positioning is absolute within the context of the Wikipedia article content div, specifically 1 em from the bottom right. If you want it to be OUTSIDE of the content div, you might want to consider adding z-index:200 and float:right to your div. -- ShinmaWa^(talk) 02:08, 8 August 2008 (UTC)[reply]

Answers to questions: The effect is the same in Firefox and in IE. Yes, I tried using the template, same effect. I'll experiment as suggested by Shinmawa, but no time just right now. Thanks for your help and interest so far! PamD (talk) 06:37, 8 August 2008 (UTC)[reply]

Tried Shinmawa's suggestions... the box moved a couple of lines further up the page! Any more ideas? PamD (talk) 15:48, 8 August 2008 (UTC)[reply]