Wikipedia:Help desk/Archives/2011 August 30

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August 30

biography of Ann Chandonnet

Please add to the list of my non-fiction my latest book: "Write Quick": War & a Woman's Life in Letters, 1835-1867 (Bethel Historical Society, Maine, 2011). You can confirm that this book exists by going to the listing on Amazon.com. Thanks for your attention. Ann Chandonnet — Preceding unsigned comment added by 70.41.141.77 (talk) 01:07, 30 August 2011 (UTC)

 Done Happy editing, hajatvrc with WikiLove @ 01:26, 30 August 2011 (UTC)

Can't login (Work PC)

Greetings. I've searched the archives and seen other instances of people not being able to login. I have tried the direct link to the login page, but my communications office has the login page blocked. Since I am unable to login I have been editing from this shared IP. However, since I DO have an account that is currently in good standing, would I have violating WP:SOCK if I continued editing from this IP? 132.3.33.68 (talk) 03:23, 30 August 2011 (UTC)

No, you're fine. The only thing WP:SOCK covers is using multiple accounts deliberately to decieve or disrupt Wikipedia, or logging out deliberately to do the same. As long as there are no shenanigans, you aren't breaking any rules. --Jayron32 03:26, 30 August 2011 (UTC)

Thank you, Jayron. I felt the need to ask since this is a shared IP, and I looked at the contribution logs and saw several instances of "shenanigans" taking place. I'd hate to have my personal record tarnished by the acts of others who also use this IP. 132.3.33.68 (talk) 03:35, 30 August 2011 (UTC)

Have you tried both http://en.wikipedia.org/w/index.php?title=Special:UserLogin and https://secure.wikimedia.org/wikipedia/en/w/index.php?title=Special:UserLogin? PrimeHunter (talk) 03:46, 30 August 2011 (UTC)

I didn't even know there was a secure login page. And it also seems my comm desk allows it. Thank you for your help! Ishdarian 03:51, 30 August 2011 (UTC)

Update numbers in NRHP list

Hi, I'm working on a list of NRHP listings in a county and I'm adding a new listing; I'm wondering if there is a way to update the number in the left column without having to go through and do it manually. This is the article. Thanks :) Theking17825 04:25, 30 August 2011 (UTC)

I think manual is the only way but I'm wondering what the point of the numbering is. The sites seem to be put in some sort of alphabetical order anyway, so why do they need to be numbered as well? Dismas|^(talk) 04:35, 30 August 2011 (UTC)

Okay, thanks... I feel the same way :/ they're pretty pointless and time consuming. Theking17825 04:40, 30 August 2011 (UTC)

Rules of providing a summary in a language other than the article's native language

Hey there, what are the rules of providing a summary in another language other than the article's main language after making changes (and before clicking "Submit")? I tried to look at the article that would answer the question (see WP:ES), but nowhere in that article says anything about adding a summary in another language other than the native language of Wikipedia (e.g. adding a summary in Spanish on the English Wikipedia site; an example of such can be found here). CHAK 001 ^{(Improvements? Please let me know!)} 05:08, 30 August 2011 (UTC)

I believe there are no rules because there is nothing to regulate. Edit summaries are not obligatory, and an edit summary in Spanish is still better than no edit summary at all. Of course edit summaries in English are preferred, but not every editor who knows enough of a language to make a small tweak to an article is also sufficiently familiar with it to write an informative edit summary without putting excessive work into it. I have sometimes been in this situation myself on various Wikipedias. Some examples: Edits by me in the Catalan, Czech, Finnish, Italian, Dutch, Pennsylvania Dutch, Slowakian Wikipedias, all with edit summaries in English. And for edits in the Occitan and Palatinate German Wikipedias I use edit summaries in French and German, respectively.

In your case, the editor made some minor changes that don't require much knowledge of English, and gave a detailed rationale in Spanish because it was easier for him or her and there is reason to expect that many editors here will be able to read it. That's perfectly proper. Hans Adler 07:04, 30 August 2011 (UTC)

I can't recall when but I've done something similar. I think I linked a photo that I had uploaded to Commons on the German Wikipedia. I speak minimal German but I could figure out the code well enough to add the image. The edit summary that I left would have been in English though. Dismas|^(talk) 07:42, 30 August 2011 (UTC)

Please search for "English" at WP:MOS, WP:SPEAKENGLISH, and Wikipedia:Manual_of_Style_(spelling). Generally, I'm all for multiculturalism, however this is the English wiki where we don't get to draw pictures, hear inflection, and use body language and gestures to help overcome the language barrier. IMO, if you have sufficient English skills to be making meaningful article improvements then please do! Aftewards, please use those same wonderful language skills when you write in the edit summary box. NewsAndEventsGuy (talk) 12:40, 30 August 2011 (UTC)

WP:SPEAKENGLISH says English is "preferred", not mandatory, and is only a talk page guideline. I can't see anything relevant at WP:MOS. If you are going to provide references please be as specific as possible, both regarding the location of the referred passage and what you intend to demonstrate with it. You're entitled to your opinion, of course, but you should support it with evidence that is relevant and easy to evaluate. --Colapeninsula (talk) 13:56, 1 September 2011 (UTC)

Hans, I do thank you for your suggestion. Though the majority of my edits are in American English, I was not aware of such rules regarding adding a summary in another language other than the article's main language. As for the other discussions after that, I am lucky that I am on the correct encyclopedia to ask a question. CHAK 001 ^{(Improvements? Please let me know!)} 14:27, 30 August 2011 (UTC)

Wikipedia keeps crashing

Hi, I have been experiencing problems for a while now where after a few minutes of browsing wikipedia I try to load a page, it don't work and my entire pc slows to a crawl. I had the problem with firefox and now with chrome as well. I disabled all gadgets in user preferences and emptied my vector.js, which helped a bit as chrome can now shut down the crashed pages, rather than me having to manually reset. My system is less than 6 months old and has no problem running anything else, while my internet connection is a tad unstable, but otherwise quite fast. In short I have no idea what could be causing the problem and very much welcome some advice. Yoenit (talk) 07:16, 30 August 2011 (UTC)

I've no idea either, but you could try running your favourite anti-virus scanner, just in case. Also you could try logging in to the secure server to see if that makes any difference. -- John of Reading (talk) 11:25, 30 August 2011 (UTC)

Three different Unicode characters for "micro"

In Triangulum Galaxy, Discrete features the Unicode character for micro is, I believe, U+CEBC (near "515 discrete candidate sources"). The article about micro lists two other, U+00B5 and U+03BC. What is the one to use?

--Mortense (talk) 08:16, 30 August 2011 (UTC)

The character used now in the article is U+03BC, the regular Greek alphabetic character. U+00B5 is an extra symbol character that was historically part of Latin character sets and is retained there in Unicode only for historical reasons. Which of these two to use is pretty much an arbitrary choice; I'd personally stay with the Greek one because it's easier to access on keyboards. What you read as "U+CEBC" is really "0xCE 0xBC", the two-byte representation of U+03BC in the UTF-8 encoding. (The actual Unicode character U+CEBC is quite unrelated, it would be HANGUL SYLLABLE KYAM (캼), a Korean character.)Fut.Perf. ☼ 08:56, 30 August 2011 (UTC)

article is written like an advertisement

The article i wrote on Alamy has been marked with 'This article is written like an advertisement. Please help rewrite this article from a neutral point of view. For blatant advertising that would require a fundamental rewrite to become encyclopedic' however since seeing this i have changed the article to make it more neutral. It is still however marked with this notice, is this because the article is still seen to be an advertisement or because it has not been checked again since i made the edit? AM2011 (talk) 10:27, 30 August 2011 (UTC)

If you feel that the article no longer reads as an advertisement, you can remove the notice yourself. The notices can be added or removed by anyone who feels that they are (un)necessary. Dismas|^(talk) 10:33, 30 August 2011 (UTC)

I've removed the tag, as your changes look like a significant improvement in that regard. - David Biddulph (talk) 10:34, 30 August 2011 (UTC)

The article is full of copy-violations, I have deleted most of it on that basis. --Cameron Scott (talk) 10:36, 30 August 2011 (UTC)

Water Filter

I haVE a Micro Lite, Royal Water machine that I bought from Ion-Life Center, but I need to change the Filter and don't know where to buy these Filters. So I hope you can help me with this problem.

Kind regards Anita S — Preceding unsigned comment added by 85.24.29.62 (talk) 10:30, 30 August 2011 (UTC)

I suspect, based on your question, that you found one of our over 3.7 million articles and thought we were affiliated in some way with that subject. Please note that you are at Wikipedia, the free online encyclopedia that anyone can edit, and this page is for asking questions related to using or contributing to Wikipedia itself. Thus, we have no special knowledge about the subject of your question. You can, however, search our vast catalogue of articles by typing a subject into the search field on the upper right side of your screen. If you cannot find what you are looking for, we have a reference desk, divided into various subject areas, where asking knowledge questions is welcome. Best of luck. GB fan please review my editing 10:37, 30 August 2011 (UTC)

how to represent a capsule summary

The article about the book TM and Cult Mania says this in the lead: "TM and Cult Mania received a positive review in the Los Angeles Times." And the citation is: Freshman, Phil (August 24, 1980). "Notable: TM and Cult Mania". Los Angeles Times: p. Q8."

However, when I checked the source, I saw that it's actually a section of the paper titled "Notable" followed by 20 capsule summaries, each about 3 sentences long, and each with a subhead that consisted of the book's title. The 20th capsule summary was TM and Cult Mania. How should this article title be represented in the citation? Simply "Notable"? And should I refer to it as a review, or maybe as capsule summary, since it's just three sentences? Also, is there a specific place in Wikipedia where I should ask stylistic questions? Thanks. TimidGuy (talk) 10:59, 30 August 2011 (UTC)

I went and checked the source myself. It's clearly a signed review from the newspaper's book review section, not just a summary (too often copied from the publisher's PR materials). The writer states a short but detailed opinion on the book. I count 60 words, plus the bibliography and byline. "Capsule review" would be a more accurate description. As for the citation on Wikipedia, I'd just title it "Notable". That's how Proquest titles the article.   Will Beback  talk  11:12, 30 August 2011 (UTC)

Strange transclusion

I tried to add a smiley to a user talk page. Although I finally found the correct markup to do this, I discovered that placing {{:)}} on a page produces a really strange result. It transcludes a whole page and removes everything else from the page. I wonder if this is intentional. Toshio Yamaguchi (talk) 12:25, 30 August 2011 (UTC)

It seems to be transcluding ), a redirect to Bracket. Maybe the colon is confusing things by making it transclude an article in mainspace. {{:Bracket}} has the same effect. Quasihuman | Talk 12:36, 30 August 2011 (UTC)

Also, for me, it doesn't remove everything on the page, I tried it in preview at the top of my userpage, the old content was still there below the references etc. Quasihuman | Talk 12:41, 30 August 2011 (UTC)

Right, it simply transcludes the content of the article Bracket. Perhaps I placed it at the top of the page and did not scroll down far enough, not sure. Still I don't really see the point of this. Toshio Yamaguchi (talk) 12:52, 30 August 2011 (UTC)

) is a redirect to Bracket. A leading colon doesn't do anything. Wikipedia:Naming_conventions_(technical_restrictions)#Colon says that articles and other pages by extension can't begin with a colon, so :) is not a valid file name. GB fan please review my editing 13:06, 30 August 2011 (UTC)

Actually I am wrong about one point, the leading colon does do something it specifies that the article is transcluded rather than the template {{)}}. The template documentation says "This template can be used in place of a literal "}" when the latter would be interpreted as a syntactic marker." GB fan please review my editing 13:11, 30 August 2011 (UTC)

(edit conflict)There cannot be a template named :), as a title cannot start with a colon. The colon instead forces articlespace and ) redirects to bracket. The template you want is {{=)}} which actually has a number of emoticons. ---— Gadget850 (Ed) ^talk 13:14, 30 August 2011 (UTC)

Right. Help:Template#General says: "To transclude a page in mainspace, precede its title with a colon, as, for example, {{:Page name}}." PrimeHunter (talk) 13:49, 30 August 2011 (UTC)

Thanks to all of you for the information. I appreciate it. Toshio Yamaguchi (talk) 13:53, 30 August 2011 (UTC)

Generated confirm email link appears to be broken (404 - File Not Found)

I signed up to Wikipedia and got the Wikipedia email address confirmation email right after. Then, immediately after receiving the email I tried to confirm my email address by clicking the attached link. The generated link appears to be broken as it shows me the 404 - File Not Found page. I requested a new confirm email link but the same thing happened again.

I am able to sign in but not using the Wikipedia email features due to the problem with email confirmation. Could you please fix this issue? — Preceding unsigned comment added by Mplaine77 (talk • contribs) 13:12, 30 August 2011 (UTC)

Try to manually copy-paste the link into the browser address bar instead of clicking it (in case your mail software does something wrong). Can you read Wikipedia at the main domain http://en.wikipedia.org or are you using another domain? (The main domain is blocked in some places). If you still have problems then post the confirmation link here. It does not reveal your email address or password. They should not be posted here. PrimeHunter (talk) 13:43, 30 August 2011 (UTC)

Thanks for the tips. The link appears to be correct--that is, not split by my email client. (1) Clicking the link, (2) copy-paste, and (3) copy link all lead to the same place (404 - File Not Found). Here is the link is received via the email: http://en.wikipedia.org/wikipedia/en/wiki/Special:ConfirmEmail/c06037f827b26e06615767a4eedd8d9d — Preceding unsigned comment added by Mplaine77 (talk • contribs) 14:41, 30 August 2011 (UTC)

That link is definitely screwed up. Thanks for notifying us. It appears you used the secure server at https://secure.wikimedia.org/wikipedia/en/wiki/Main_Page. My testing shows that the secure server sends invalid links of that form at the moment (it's a hodgepodge of links to the normal and secure server). I have used the code at the end of the link to confirm your mail address with a valid url. I will report the bug. PrimeHunter (talk) 15:03, 30 August 2011 (UTC)

Moving and categorizing a userbox

I created a new userbox at User:Toshio Yamaguchi/Template:User Sandbox. Can I move it to Template:User Sandbox, although Template:User sandbox already exists? And can someone suggest a good category at Wikipedia:Userboxes/Gallery to put this new userbox at? Would Wikipedia:Userboxes/Wikipedia/Editing philosophy be a good place? Toshio Yamaguchi (talk) 13:48, 30 August 2011 (UTC)

It would take an administrator to move the page over an existing name, but it should definitely not be done here. Lots of user sandboxes have {{User Sandbox}} which causes transclusion of the redirect target {{User sandbox}}. Users have a different number of sandboxes and may name them differently so I'm not sure the userbox would be good in template space in its current form. It can also be confusing that it shows blue links for non-existing pages. It would show red links with links like [[User:{{BASEPAGENAME}}/Sandbox]] but those links would only work when the template is on a userpage or user subpage. PrimeHunter (talk) 14:19, 30 August 2011 (UTC)

Thanks. I will keep the userbox in my userspace for now and think about how it can be improved to better fit a users needs. And thanks for the suggestion with Template:BASEPAGENAME. I will experiment with that later. Toshio Yamaguchi (talk) 14:32, 30 August 2011 (UTC)

It may not fit in a userbox but {{Special:PrefixIndex/User:Toshio Yamaguchi/Sandbox}} will show the pages (currently only one) at Special:PrefixIndex/User:Toshio Yamaguchi/Sandbox:

• Toshio Yamaguchi/Sandbox

{{Special:PrefixIndex/User:{{BASEPAGENAME}}/Sandbox}} works for other users if it's on their userpage. There could also be {{Special:PrefixIndex/User:{{BASEPAGENAME}}/sandbox}} for users who don't capitalize. PrimeHunter (talk) 14:49, 30 August 2011 (UTC)

Using sources written by myself

Hello. Someone else has used a news article written by me as a secondary source, which I know is legitimate. (See Elk Lake School District, reference #23). I am flattered. ... My question is: Am I allowed to use information I have published elsewhere as a source on Wikipedia, or must someone else find it and use it? Thank you. — Michael J 13:55, 30 August 2011 (UTC)

See WP:SELFPUBLISH. I would say generally this is only permissible, if the person publishing the information is regarded as an authority in the field the article is about. Also remember WP:COI. Thus it really depends on the amount of outside review the source has received. For example I think there should be no problem for a scientist to add his own papers as sources to a Wikipedia article, if they have undergone a peer review prior to being published. So the question generally is, did your publications receive some kind of peer review prior to being published? If not, then I think you should not add them to an article yourself. Instead post at the talk page of the article in question and let others look at them. If there is consensus to add them to the article as sources, then this should be fine. Toshio Yamaguchi (talk) 14:15, 30 August 2011 (UTC)

That makes sense, thank you. It's kind of cool to be a source on Wikipedia, though. — Michael J 14:56, 30 August 2011 (UTC)

There are 2 "Peter Lehmann", but only 1 to find with the search button

When I search for Peter Lehmann, only Peter Lehmann, an Australia wine producer, is shown. Today I was told, that there is a site about me: Peter Lehmann (author)

On Wikipedia German, all people with the name "Peter Lehmann" are listed on the first site (see http://de.wikipedia.org/wiki/Spezial:Search?ns0=1&search=Peter+Lehmann&fulltext=Suche), then people have an overview. If people look for me on your English site, they will not find me, because they will not type "(author)" additionally.

Is there any chance for change on the English site?

Plehmann1950 (talk) 14:28, 30 August 2011 (UTC)

I've provided a link to Peter Lehmann (author), but you might find the latter deleted through lack of appropriate secondary sources. - David Biddulph (talk) 14:38, 30 August 2011 (UTC)

List of publications for Bio of Living people

What kinds of work should be included in the publications section of a bio of a living person? Obviously books and so forth but what about a blog for a newspaper or a written piece on a website such as The Punch Would this be appropriate? I was just thinking of adding it to one article to make it more substantive. Thank You U8701 (talk) 14:35, 30 August 2011 (UTC)

Blogs, op-eds and the like don't usually make a splash. I'd say "no"; it will look like you're padding the resume, so to speak. --Orange Mike | Talk 16:47, 30 August 2011 (UTC)

David Platt Director

The picture shown as David Platt is not David Platt. It is of the Director of Photography George Pattison. I should know because I am David Platt. — Preceding unsigned comment added by 74.112.84.131 (talk) 16:03, 30 August 2011 (UTC)

I assume you are referring to File:David Platt (director).jpg. I have removed it from David Platt (director). The editor who uploaded the image has been contacted. PrimeHunter (talk) 20:33, 30 August 2011 (UTC)

As the editor who uploaded the photo, I'd just like to apologize for misrepresenting you. Thanks for bringing it to attention. I'll save the photo for the day George Pattison gets his own page.
Ulmanor (talk) 05:27, 1 September 2011 (UTC)

Possible Inappropriate Link

There is a possible commercial link on the "Foam latex" page. A recent addition with information about goalkeeping gloves provides a link to a company that sells gloves, but the linked page itself is an FAQ page. Should this link be deleted? — Preceding unsigned comment added by 66.245.132.69 (talk) 16:31, 30 August 2011 (UTC)

Removed.TMCk (talk) 16:39, 30 August 2011 (UTC)

exclamation point banner at top of article

I have two exclamation point banners on the top of an article I'm trying to edit. I think I fixed the problems, so how can I make those exclamation point banners go away? — Preceding unsigned comment added by Helenargoodman (talk • contribs) 16:42, 30 August 2011 (UTC)

Those warnings were added to the article after you'd done your earlier edits, and they seem wholly justifiable. I suggest that you read the links provided in the warnings, and address the problems identified. - David Biddulph (talk) 16:49, 30 August 2011 (UTC)

I have removed the {{advert}} and {{peacock}} templates, but added {{BLPrefimprove}}. – ukexpat (talk) 17:06, 30 August 2011 (UTC)

Chocolate bars

Moved to WP:RD/S#Chocolate bars. —Akrabbim^talk 18:58, 30 August 2011 (UTC)

Text from AP

Resolved

I would like to copy one sentence, which I found in an AP article, into the appropriate article. However, I have two questions:

1. Is it allowed? Their legalese sounds very strict.
2. That page is created dynamically, so we should link to a static version. Does anyone know how to do that? — Sebastian 19:13, 30 August 2011 (UTC)

You could extract and quote the relevant sentence directly - brief quotations from copyright sources are permitted as fair use. Then use http://www.webcitation.org to archive a static copy of the page that you can cite as a reference. – ukexpat (talk) 19:24, 30 August 2011 (UTC)

Cool, thanks! — Sebastian 19:42, 30 August 2011 (UTC)

Actually, unfortunately, AP does not want to be cached. The e-mail I received read "The given URL contained a no-cache tag. WebCite respects the author's request to not have their web page cached." And so will I. — Sebastian 19:54, 30 August 2011 (UTC)

Article about a local music artist who is quite unique in our country

User:Huta28/Marty Rivers (edit | talk | history | links | watch | logs)

Hi, I did an article about a local country music artist, Marty Rivers, who is one of the few music artists from Malta, and the only Maltese country artist, that managed to chart high on various international charts; I've been waiting a long time now for my article to be accepted; I noticed that there are some Maltese artists on wikipedia who never had any kind of success on any international chart and some of them hardly made in locally; so why my article about Marty is still not accepted;

Thanks,

Joe Huta28 (talk) 19:15, 30 August 2011 (UTC)

Please take at the notability guidelines for musicians at WP:MUSICBIO. It is really irrelevant that there are articles about other Maltese musicians because we look at each article independently when assessing notability. The other articles will be reviewed in due course and either improved or discussed for deletion. – ukexpat (talk) 19:21, 30 August 2011 (UTC)

328 BS error

Your article has an error ....

this sentence is in error....By 1951, the emergence of the Soviet Mig-21 interceptor in the skies of North Korea signaled the end of the propeller-driven B-50 as a first-line strategic bomber. Received B-47 Stratojet jet bombers in 1954, and in 1955 began receiving early model of the B-52 Stratofortress, upgraded to various models over the next 40 years. Taken off nuclear alert after the end of the Cold War, the squadron was inactivated in 1994 with the inactivation of its parent unit and the closure of Castle AFB.

The Mig 21 was not the issue it was the Mig-15. — Preceding unsigned comment added by 132.3.33.68 (talk) 20:07, 30 August 2011 (UTC)

If you can provide verifiability in the form of a valid source that supports your argument, feel free to change the article yourself. Wikipedia is a wiki, meaning anyone can add or change information in the encyclopedia. If you need help editing, please see Help:Editing. Also note that a quick Google search indicates that the paragraph you pointed out is actually copied to quite a number of Wikipedia articles and even web pages that are not part of Wikipedia. Happy editing, hajatvrc with WikiLove @ 20:18, 30 August 2011 (UTC)

I made the change to the 328th Weapons Squadron article based on this request and the fact that the Mig-21 wasn't introduced until 1959. The Mig-21 could not have been the aircraft that marked the end of the propeller bombers in the early 1950s. There aren't any sources on the paragraph right now, so it should be sourced GB fan please review my editing 20:26, 30 August 2011 (UTC)

University of Liverpool Logo as Main Image

Can somebody please help an ongoing dispute?

There is somebody on the University of Liverpool Wikipedia page that keeps replacing the university's logo with an old crest of arms that is no longer used.

I contacted the University's press office and they confirmed that it should not be used, and the logo should be used.

However, somebody keeps replacing the main image with the old coat of arms because they "prefer it" and it "looks better on Facebook". Ultimately, this does not represent the university as well as the logo.

Surely the University's logo that is displayed on their official website should be the main image and not an old coat of arms that has been replaced since 5 years ago?

Can somebody sort this out please as this person keeps changing it?

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/University_of_Liverpool

Thanks

81.106.115.143 (talk) 22:09, 30 August 2011 (UTC)Daniel

This is being discussed at great length on the talk page of the article. You can join in the discussion here: Talk:University_of_Liverpool#Crest.2FEmblem. fish&karate 11:35, 31 August 2011 (UTC)

Problems with images in info boxes

I'm working on Frederick Walker Castle. I just uploaded this image to Commons, and now I add it to the infobox after image=, and all it does is display the name of the file. I've looked at other pages that use infoboxes and can't figure out why this one isn't working.--Prosfilaes (talk) 22:50, 30 August 2011 (UTC)

Somebody fixed it; thank you. But why is the syntax gratitiously different from that used on Dan Barker, for example?--Prosfilaes (talk) 22:59, 30 August 2011 (UTC)

One uses Infobox Military Person and the other uses Infobox Scientist. There is no standard practice amongst infoboxes. as much as I hate it. Dismas|^(talk) 23:00, 30 August 2011 (UTC)

(edit conflict × 2) I fixed it. Take a look at this diff to see what I did. The documentation at Template:Infobox military person says the image parameter must always be specified in this format. Dan Barker uses a different template (Template:Infobox scientist) which seems to use a different syntax for the image in the infobox template. Toshio Yamaguchi (talk) 23:05, 30 August 2011 (UTC)