- Kim_Davis_(county_clerk) (talk|edit|history|logs|links|archive|watch) (RM)
Closer Tiggerjay did not follow the spirit and intent of WP:RMCI because:
- Non-admin closure when consensus/lack-of-consensus was not clear. While a cursory !vote count may suggest a lack of consensus supporting the move, a more nuanced evaluation of the policy basis and relevance of the arguments is necessary in this case to determine consensus, per WP:CONSENSUS#Determining consensus. There is no indication that closer did this.
- Although the proposal was to change between titles both of which reflected the name of the person Kim Davis, much of the opposition was based on the sentiment that the title should not reflect the the person, an issue about which a lack of consensus has been recently established, and which is not relevant to this particular proposal. There is no indication that the closer took this into account in evaluating the discussion for consensus.
- There was no dispute in the discussion about whether the subject Kim Davis is the WP:PRIMARYTOPIC for "Kim Davis". There was only speculation that she may not remain the primary topic in the future. Such speculation blatantly ignores WP:CRYSTAL, and is dubious because of the particular lack of notabilty of the other uses of Kim Davis, as noted in the nom and discussion.
- Strong policy-based arguments were presented favoring the move; no policy-based arguments were given against the specific move proposal. Policy-wise, the consensus is clear.
- The closer has not responded to questions[1] and pings[2] requesting clarification.
I really think the policy-based consensus favoring the move presented in the discussion should be recognized and the article moved accordingly. But, at the least the poorly explained and unclarified non-admin closure should be reverted to allow an admin to close. В²C ☎ 20:33, 9 November 2015 (UTC)[reply]
- when it is clear there is no consensus that that the article about a controversial event should be improperly shoehorned under the name of a living person it is even MORE clear that the contested and controversial content is NOT the primary topic.
- And it is also clear that someone who does not know the first fucking thing about what is "motivating" me should be falsely making claims that they do. @Born2cycle: retract your irresponsible and unsupported claims. -- TRPoD aka The Red Pen of Doom 03:06, 10 November 2015 (UTC)[reply]
- You just confirmed what you're asking me to retract? Really? If you don't recognize that you're motivated by your belief that this article is PSEUDO biography, don't blame me! What you don't seem to get is that whether this article is a WP:PSEUDO biography is irrelevant to the question of whether it should be titled Kim Davis or Kim Davis (county clerk). If it is a PSEUDO biography then neither title is acceptable, and neither of these two titles is even slightly more acceptable than the other. So the PSEUDO argument is neither in opposition nor support of the proposal; it is inherently neutral on that question. But you keep bringing it up as if it is relevant. Over and over. Why? --В²C ☎ 03:36, 10 November 2015 (UTC)[reply]
- It's not inherently neutral at all. PSEUDO supports not keeping the article at either title, as you said; it's an argument against this move because the proposed title is inappropriate. The current title is just as inappropriate, but fortunately we don't have to choose one of them: we can do nothing until the neutral title issue is resolved. But every time an editor has attempted to address the neutral title issue, it gets shouted down as "out of process". Skipping the debate about title neutrality does not mean that the debate is settled. Moving this now from one inappropriate title to another inappropriate title is putting the cart before the horse: it just means more cleanup work later. That is the PSEUDO argument: that the page should not be moved at all until a proper, fulsome discussion about an appropriate article title is resolved. Ivanvector 🍁 (talk) 15:19, 10 November 2015 (UTC)[reply]
- The problem with this argument is that it presumes something for which there is no consensus support: that there should not be a biographical article about Kim Davis. Therefore the proposed title is not necessarily inappropriate; though the current one clearly is (per WP:PRIMARYTOPIC). Moving from a clearly inappropriate title to an arguably inappropriate title is an improvement - keeping an inappropriate title as a hostage until one gets his way is not appropriate. --В²C ☎ 17:20, 11 November 2015 (UTC)[reply]
- You're right, there is no consensus that there should not be a biographical article about Kim Davis, there's only consensus that there should be one article related to this controversy, which is what this event article is. Giving it a biographical title is inappropriate. Giving it a different biographical title is still inappropriate. The only one holding the article hostage is you, since you refuse to acknowledge that the inappropriate title should be corrected. Unnecessary disambiguation is only a small part of the problem. If you'd like to drop this, and start a rational discussion about what this article's proper title should be, considering all of the relevant policies and guidelines and not just the one you've chosen, I will be very happy to support that. Ivanvector 🍁 (talk) 21:18, 11 November 2015 (UTC)[reply]
- The idea that biographical articles on WP cannot be mostly about the one main thing for which its subject is notable is absurd, and is countered by the majority of our biographical articles. For examples, just start picking articles at random at Category:Living_people: Henri Aalto, Rolf M. Aagaard, Nabil Aankour, Patsy Pease, Hiram Batchelder. They all mention what the person is notable for, and much less than we have about this Kim Davis. This is not cherry-picking WP:OTHERSTUFF; the vast majority of entries in this category are about people who are far less notable than this Kim Davis. Having a biography article titled with the name of the subject but with content mostly about an event or whatever thing the subject is most notable for is the norm for biographies on WP. Arguing that this article should not be titled after the person is treating this article differently from most other BLPs, for no apparent reason other than perhaps a bias against this particular person. --В²C ☎ 00:10, 12 November 2015 (UTC)[reply]
- No, Ivanvector is right. The title should describe the content. There have been several who have argued against having her name in the title at all because she is not notable. It's the controversy that's notable. But there are a number of us who recognize that she IS the controversy. They are tied together. No one else is involved, and it doesn't exist apart from her, so the title should still include her name. -- BullRangifer (talk) 05:28, 12 November 2015 (UTC)[reply]
- The difference is that none of these randomly-selected people are notable only for their involvement in a single event. Some who are (not randomly selected) are Monica Lewinsky, John Hinckley, Jr., Steve Bartman, or John Magno. The first two have biographies which are substantially about their entire lives, with a brief summary of the event which made them notable and a link to the main event article. The second two aren't notable at all outside of the event they're known for, so their names redirect to the event. The events are Lewinsky scandal, Attempted assassination of Ronald Reagan, Steve Bartman incident, and Woodbine Building Supply fire - names which describe the event; some cannot be described without reference to the person involved, but they describe the event nonetheless. Davis is more likely to be like the first two, but the title of this event article still needs to describe the event, not the person, and if we pull the purely biographical bits out into a separate neutral bio, then that should live at Kim Davis. Currently there is consensus against that, although I disagree myself. An example of a person whose entire public life has been controversies (definitely not randomly selected) is Rob Ford - even his bio is neutral (in that it reflects the negative POV of reliable sources) with brief mentions of his many scandals, which are detailed in separate articles. Kim Davis is definitely not Rob Ford - Ford would have been notable anyway, Davis is only notable because of the event. Ivanvector 🍁 (talk) 15:25, 12 November 2015 (UTC)[reply]
- BullRangifer, no, the title should not describe the content. We only use descriptive titles for certain articles whose topics don't have commonly used names, like List of school districts in California by county. When the topic has a name, that is used as the title, and the name of a topic doesn't describe the content. BLPs are titled by the name of the person, even if we have very little biographical information about the person, and much more information about whatever makes them notable. There is no reason to use different rules for this BLP. --В²C ☎ 17:46, 12 November 2015 (UTC)[reply]
Just a reminder that this venue is for examining the close itself. Some of the above discussion seems closer to be rehashing the RM itself. PaleAqua (talk) 18:04, 12 November 2015 (UTC)[reply]
- Thanks for the reminder. The fundamental question here is whether the closer correctly found there to be "no consensus" in the original discussion. The reasons for why there was or was not policy-based reasons supporting or opposing the move is relevant, and that's ultimately what is being discussed. Some of that is going to look like a rehash of the RM itself, naturally. --В²C ☎ 20:11, 12 November 2015 (UTC)[reply]
- Endorse close - while I believe that Tiggerjay should have left this to be closed by an administrator with experience closing controversial topics, I think that hypothetical closer would arrive at the same result. B2C and other supporters contend that past discussions determined that this article should be titled "Kim Davis" and that the only unsettled point is the disambiguator, however the previous discussions (AfD, AfD2, RM1, RM2, this clusterfuck) have very clearly only failed to settle anything, and so we're left with status quo. The page only has "Kim Davis" as a title now because that was its original title. There has been no consensus for any move at all, except for the one which moved it back to this title after it had been moved without discussion, and that again only because that was the original title and the discussion could not agree on a better one. When a discussion was attempted to determine an appropriate title for this article, one which would be supported by our policy on event articles masquerading as biographies, the same supporters used the "previous consensus" argument to disrupt the conversation and obstruct any title which was not "Kim Davis", and that rightly led to the aforementioned clusterfuck; this discussion was then immediately opened. The community cannot decide on a name for this article at this time, and the result of "no consensus" move requests is for the article to stay where it is. It is worth noting here that the editor requesting this review has a history of repeatedly making the same proposal and badgering any opposition until their opponents get worn down and they get their way, but that is not consensus, that's victory by attrition, and that's not how Wikipedia is supposed to work. The biographies of living persons policy is not a game to be won. Ivanvector 🍁 (talk) 22:31, 9 November 2015 (UTC)[reply]
- Born2cycle has requested (as they should) that I provide evidence for my allegations regarding their past discussions (as I should) per WP:NPA. For examples, please see User:Born2cycle#Persistence pays, where the user lists previous discussions where "persistence" paid off, meaning "those who stubbornly objected to these moves finally conceded, were outnumbered, or were overruled by a thoughtful closer who paid more attention to policy and strength of argument than !vote counts." At the moment this includes one instance of an article subject to a moratorium on move requests noting when the moratorium is to be lifted. My observation is not meant as a personal attack, I do think that persistence is a good thing, but persistence is different from simply trying to outlast your opponents, and it's not a good thing to interpret your opponents conceding or getting worn down as support for your position. That is relevant to this discussion because the editor has been asked to let this go by at least three editors ([4], [5], [6], [7]) and it appears that their strategy with this move request, like above-noted past move discussions, is to drag it through as many venues as possible until enough people get tired of it that it looks like support for their position. Ivanvector 🍁 (talk) 23:30, 9 November 2015 (UTC)[reply]
- And regarding the allegation of !vote counting, the actual final !vote count is 6 in favour, 5 opposed. So the accusation that Tiggerjay simply counted votes should be thrown out. Ivanvector 🍁 (talk) 23:33, 9 November 2015 (UTC)[reply]
Off-topic discussion about language choices
|
- You misunderstand the point of the persistence section. I was talking about persistence of the community, not of any one contributor. The quintessential example is perhaps Yogurt, which had a different person propose almost every single of the 8 or so RMs before consensus was finally recognized. And it has nothing at all to do with "opponents" (which is WP:BATTLE language that I, for one, reject in my mind let alone in the words that I use), much less outlast one's opponents. That would be a sad perspective.
As to the !vote counting, a !vote count of 6 to 5 indicates lack of consensus, regardless of which way it swings, IF one is counting !votes. --В²C ☎ 02:40, 10 November 2015 (UTC)[reply]
- The simple fact is that our positions in this debate are in opposition, we are thus opponents. You can use a different word if you like, but don't read into my language a battleground mentality that isn't there. Ivanvector 🍁 (talk) 17:11, 10 November 2015 (UTC)[reply]
- No, opponent is WP:BATTLEGROUND language. Don't believe me? Try referring to your spouse as an opponent just because you hold different positions on some issue. QED. Just because we have different positions on this one issue does not mean we're opponents. We're on the same team to improve Wikipedia. That doesn't mean we have to agree on everything, and disagreeing does not make us opponents. If you think of, and refer to, everyone or anyone you disagree with as "opponents", well, you'll tend to treat them accordingly. Don't do that. That's the whole point of WP:BATTLEGROUND. --В²C ☎ 00:13, 11 November 2015 (UTC)[reply]
- This is no marriage. In fact, people here, by and large, don't even know each other in RL. In terms of a dispute, there are naturally opponents. That's not the same as being on a battleground. People on both sides wish decisions to go in their favor because they believe they are right. We are not fighting, which is what happens on a battleground. But we are disputing. Omnedon (talk) 00:23, 11 November 2015 (UTC)[reply]
- Yes, but married people dispute too. I don't deny the disputes, obviously! Heck, this is a dispute. But I still don't think of you, Ivanvector (or my wife) as opponents! --В²C ☎ 00:40, 11 November 2015 (UTC)[reply]
- That married people dispute is irrelevant. This is a matter of semantics. In a chess game between two friends, they are opponents. In discussions on Wikipedia, people who barely know each other and are certainly not friends can be opponents. There is no way to reconcile what you seem to be saying here with your past behavior. In any case, let's focus on the issue at hand. TiggerJay did nothing wrong. There was no consensus to move, and so the move did not take place. Omnedon (talk) 14:07, 11 November 2015 (UTC)[reply]
|
- Speedy relist or have an admin re-close. Not an outrageously bad close, but non-admins should not be closing contested discussions. While some few non-admins have made very good closes, settling a contested matter with a clarity of close that gets respected, meaning that the "non-admins should not be closing contested discussions" mantra is not absolute, this close does not do the discussion justice. By "speedy relist" I mean that the NAC closer should have self-reverted on the first reasonable objection. --SmokeyJoe (talk) 01:59, 10 November 2015 (UTC)[reply]
- First of all I'd like to thank Born2cycle as he has been a valuable volunteer for page moves, and makes good !votes. Also thanks to Ivanvector for stepping up in good faith while I have been noticeably offline since this whole event started to unfold. I was busy IRL, and didn't see this discussion taking place until moments ago. With regard to process for NAC, it is for clear cases of undisputed closures. Certainly by the reaction of Born2cycle one might think that this is disputed. However I would question, after the lengthy discussion on the move, and then subsequently a proposal for a move review, if there is only one person asserting that this was a contentious close, then perhaps it really isn't one after all. Rather it appears to be an original move nominator upset that his proposal didn't go through. It appears nobody else questions if this was a matter of "no consensus" other than the nom, and it appears to support some of the claims of Ivanvector specifically regarding User:Born2cycle#Persistence pays. Persistence doesn't necessarily make things right. We can question if/should an admin have closed this move request, but from a review above it appears that nobody would have supported this as a move with consensus. Many days had progressed without comment, and the discussion was taking no clear motion towards consensus. Perhaps the nom thought he making headway with his proposal, but it doesn't appear anyone else is viewing it this way. I take no offense to the move review, since he was accurately unable to reach me. Again, he does good work. But in my opinion this closure was correct. Tiggerjay (talk) 02:07, 10 November 2015 (UTC)[reply]
- If it was just me, I would not have opened this review. At the "Move review?" discussion (which I opened precisely to determine if it was just me) others wrote, "the closer may have counted votes, or simply gave inappropriate weight to essay-based arguments", and "bad close". Just above, it was referred to as "contested". I'm not upset that MY proposal didn't go through. I'm upset that the title remains inexplicably disambiguated. It sets a bad precedent. Titles of WP:PRIMARYTOPIC articles should never be disambiguated. A title like this makes such titles seem acceptable, which leads to ambiguity in title decision-making. If a PRIMARYTOPIC article may or may not be disambiguated, how do we decide? Flip a coin? Ask about personal preferences and count !votes? No. We determine as best as we can if the topic in question is primary, and, if it is, we don't disambiguate. Period. It is that simple. That was consensus. Those opposed did not even disagree; they opposed for reasons that had nothing to do with what was being proposed. --В²C ☎ 03:00, 10 November 2015 (UTC)[reply]
- Overturn to move. The supporters cited primary topic, a guideline, while the opposition was based on essays and conjecture about future notoriety; lots of people disagreeing, no matter how spirited, doesn't mean there is no consenus. At a minimum, this should be relisted because a non-admin should not be closing such contentious requests (I myself am not an admin and also considered closing this but thought better of it). Calidum T|C 03:38, 10 November 2015 (UTC)[reply]
Overturn to move, or relist and let an experienced admin examine the !votes and discount those which were off-topic before counting, as should have been done. User:Born2cycle's concerns are quite legitimate\, and it's rather amazing that the very same type of illegitimate argument is repeated here. If editors cannot stay on topic, their comments and !votes should not be counted. There is a need to reexamine this improper close. -- BullRangifer (talk) 07:45, 10 November 2015 (UTC)[reply]
- Closer's Explanation of how I came about to a "no consensus" decision on this page after weighing significant evidence. Honestly, I did far opposite of counting votes (since they were nearly even anyways), but rather weighed the arguments presented and coupled them with policy -- and I reviewed all of the material on this RM, along with the two prior RM and AfDs. BOTH sides do have an established basis in POLICY, and disagreement over its application. Yes, this Kim Davis is the most popular today, and supported by all accounts in Google and GNews and even on WP views. This page and content has been supported through several RM and AfD, so consensus is that this page should be kept, contains appropriate and valuable information. However, that discussion was the sidetrack that was introduced into the RM discussion. The actual question for discussion is if the proposed name is the most appropriate name per policy. B2C brought up the basis of the rename using PRIMARYTOPIC, which is the standard, logical approach. Of the first two criteria it passes "with respect to usage" however it is debated in the RM "with respect to long-term significance" (brought up by Parsecboy) -- however, CRYSTAL doesn't automatically make this statement lean one way or the other - that is, we don't know if it passes the ten year standard for significance. Furthermore under PRIMARYTOPIC we see "if a topic has only ascended to widespread notability and prominence recently" (which is clearly the case here) the application of PRIMARYTOPIC to the discussion has "NEVER never won acceptace...as a good indicator of primary topic" (emphasis mine). The discussion about WP:PSEUDO is relevant to the extent that it impacts the appropriateness of the name change itself, and if another name would be better suited. While the various prior actions support that this article should exist, PESUDO or not, it does raise the valid concern that if this is in fact a PESUDO and BIO1E -- further supported by a review of the UNDUE weight of this article -- then convention would support a move to something similar to Steve Bartman incident as per WP:BIO1E. The arguments for PESUDO are based around this page not being a proper BIO, which it is not due to weight and 1E issues -- and if this article was a prior bio then the rename would be appropriate, but as it stands it is more about the event and controversy instead of the person. These appear more inline with the prior RM which was also found without consensus. I am, however not taking sides, but rather demonstrating exactly the kind of actual policy issues that have been presented and why this a rational argument for both sids of this issue.
- This RM was posted 1 day after that very contentious RM from October 6. For these reasons, there is clear debate over application of policy, and there is no consensus. Both sides were talking about their issues, but there was no clear move of consensus, or one side convincing the other of their position. Rather two sides just speaking their own talking points on the issue. I don't feel this or past RMs have gotten us any closer to consensus and we're simply beating a dead horse. The best action taken so far has been to merge the event article into this one. But with regards to the rename of this article, let it rest a while (weeks) and lets have fresh eyes re-evaluate the naming. It isn't a terrible article title at the moment, but clearly a disagreement on what a "better" name would be. However, if someone else really believe that there was actual consensus, feel free to overturn. However, there was no simple vote counting, or glossing over this requested move. But rather a careful review of policy and the policies both sides presented (not their individual synthesis and OR). Tiggerjay (talk) 09:04, 10 November 2015 (UTC)[reply]
- (Editorial Update 19 Nov: Just to be clear since some have not like the use of the duality use of "two sides", the use or perspective never entered my minor or consideration until reading the dialog of the
RMMove Review. The nom specifically introduced the term opposition and I have maintained the two sided laungage to be consistent with all of the preceeding dialoug. However, to be clear, the process taken to evaluate this closure was based on reviewing all the editors comments, and related policies, guides, precedents--and prior RM & AfD, without regards to sides, but rather to establish if there was valid discussions and points to determine consensus. Tiggerjay (talk) 03:23, 20 November 2015 (UTC))[reply]
- Just for clarification, Tiggerjay, there was never any "action taken so far has been to merge the event article into this one." The event content has always been in this article. It's always been an event article, right from the beginning. The little bit of biographical content was dredged up from various sources after her notability for the event was established. You might be thinking of the "Kentucky...." article, but that was an improper copy-paste from this one. A tiny bit of unique content was later added to that one (mention of the other two clerks, who have never denied a same-sex marriage license because no one has applied). That unique content was merged into this one. -- BullRangifer (talk) 16:27, 11 November 2015 (UTC)[reply]
- Your usage of "both sides" as referring to the sides in the larger debate rather than the sides in the discussion you were supposed to evaluate indicates you should have recused yourself for not being objective. The vast majority of biography articles on Wikipedia are about 1E people far less notable than this Kim Davis, including the other Kim Davis's covered on WP. Singling her out as a person even possibly not "deserving" a biography article is plain silly. Your bias is rather obvious. --В²C ☎ 16:54, 10 November 2015 (UTC)[reply]
- your reading into the "two sides" bit too much. There was no bias going into this and I have not participated prior to this close. I believe it is clear to anyone who reads this individual RM that there was two viewpoint, two sides. Looking back to prior RMs, which is equally prudent, especially considering this comes on the heals of the prior close, further supports there are two sides. Provide CLEAR evidence for bias that I am somehow involved or had bias prior closure. Stop sidestepping and continue to argue the RM. Tiggerjay (talk) 05:50, 11 November 2015 (UTC)[reply]
- Endorse close. TiggerJay's explanation should clear up the misconceptions indicated when this review was opened. Omnedon (talk) 14:32, 10 November 2015 (UTC)[reply]
- I agree with Ivanvector and Tiggerjay that, although this would definitely be an improvement to the current name, it still not resolve the fact that the new name, even though better, would not adequately cover the actual topic matter, and our titles MUST do that. We will have to revisit attempts to rename it to Kim Davis same-sex marriage license controversy as a much better title. -- BullRangifer (talk) 16:02, 10 November 2015 (UTC)[reply]
- There is no consensus to move to a title like Kim Davis same-sex marriage license controversy, for good reason. This Kim Davis is far more notable than the other Kim Davis's with biography articles on WP, and it would be absurd to have biography articles about them (and countless other borderline-notable persons), but not one about her. On the other hand, there is good reason to move this article from its current disambiguated title to the undisambiguated one, per PRIMARYTOPIC. --В²C ☎ 17:00, 10 November 2015 (UTC)[reply]
- We had a well-discussed RfC on that: Talk:Kim Davis (county clerk)/Archive 4#RfC: Two articles or one? (Or three?). It concluded that there is support for having one article about this event. Kim Davis (county clerk) is that event article. Davis isn't notable for anything else other than her role in the event. This isn't a biography of Kim Davis which happens to mention the event, this is an article about the marriage license controversy which includes some biographical information on a key player in it. At the moment this article is 66kB about the controversy and Davis' role in it or information that came to light directly as a result of her role in it, and another 6.7kB of padding about her entirely non-notable career prior to the incident (not counting infobox, reflists, categories, etc). That's 91% controversy, it should be titled accordingly. You are entirely correct that there was no consensus to move to Kim Davis same-sex marriage license controversy: when we tried to discuss what the proper article title for the event should be, this happened. We need to have another discussion similar to that one, but less shouty, better organized, and probably not right away (because people are rightly getting tired of this). Ivanvector 🍁 (talk) 18:18, 10 November 2015 (UTC)[reply]
- Born2cycle - you are out of line regarding what WP:MR is all about: "Move Review is not an opportunity to rehash, expand upon or first offer your opinion on the proper title of the page in question – move review is not a do-over of the WP:RM discussion but is an opportunity to correct errors in the closing process." Please stay on topic. Please do not waste time and efforts on rehashing the RM's merrits. Rather this discussion is regarding "an opportunity to correct errors in the closing process." My introduction of the detailed evaluation was to explain WHY I closed the RM as I did, which is the purpose of this forum -- what was the reasons why it was closed, and were those reasons found to be consistent with policy and good faith. You're arguing the move, instead of focusing on the close. Tiggerjay (talk) 18:54, 10 November 2015 (UTC)[reply]
- Point taken. But understanding the context is key to all this. Really, it's about the following scenario: Current title is A, proposed title is B. When some support the move to B for good policy reasons, no one disputes this, but some oppose on the grounds that neither title is adequate because they believe a totally different title is justified (a position for which lack of consensus has been established), is there policy-based consensus among the participants to move from A to B? --В²C ☎ 21:36, 10 November 2015 (UTC)[reply]
- Can you demonstrate that "no one disputes the move to B"??? Furthermore it is your bias that says that the claims for name C are irrelevant. My review shows valid reasons for both B and C. And without any progress being made towards either, then it is no consensus. How do you see that differently? Are you simply choosing to let your views of policy application create a supervise against policy based opposition? Tiggerjay (talk) 05:55, 11 November 2015 (UTC)[reply]
- В²C is correct about that one, Tiggerjay. If you had discounted the off-topic !votes, there was consensus for a move/title change to Kim Davis. The merits of a much better title which actually describes the content is another matter, and should not have been allowed in this RM discussion. Closers are supposed to discount off-topic !votes and not inject their own opinions in the close, or inject the opinions of the discounted !votes in the close. The discussion of a much better title would still have come later, but at least the "primary" Kim Davis question would have been settled. -- BullRangifer (talk) 16:32, 11 November 2015 (UTC)[reply]
- That again is a misreading of the discussion. As В²C rightly pointed out, the proposal was to move from title A to title B. Nobody anywhere in the discussion proposed any title other than A or B, the only arguments were "this article's title should be B" or "this article's title should not be B". The discussion was entirely on-topic, much more so than the previous discussions in fact. Saying that you disagree with the rationale behind opposing the move is fine, but it's very far off from saying that nobody opposed it. Ivanvector 🍁 (talk) 17:00, 11 November 2015 (UTC)[reply]
- Ivanvector, it's not a misreading of the Requested Move at all. I described EXACTLY what happened, and you must have forgotten your own !vote! You didn't vote for either option. You opposition was based on favoring a third option, IOW it was off-topic.
- The six support !votes (including the nominator) ALL supported a change from the current title to Kim Davis.
- The five oppose !votes were of two types: three opposed either option because they wanted a third option which actually described the controversy. Yours was of that type; the two remaining opposed on RECENTISM grounds.
- None of those five oppose votes considered PRIMARYTOPIC, so all of them should have been discounted as they were off-topic. Tiggerjay should have closed the RM as a Snow support for move to Kim Davis. None of the oppose !votes were on-topic. Later we would have to do what we'll have to do anyway, and that is to deal with the legitimate PSEUDOBIOGRAPHY argument; the article should still be named after the controversy, but since she is the only one involved, her name would still be in the title. It's HER controversy. It would be a biography/event article, since she is not notable apart from the controversy. -- BullRangifer (talk) 05:08, 12 November 2015 (UTC) [reply]
-
- You and I are very close to being in agreement on this, except that there's no basis for discounting opposition because it doesn't fit in the nice little box defined by the proposal. I supported the PRIMARYTOPIC argument but opposed this proposal nonetheless, because when we discuss what an article's title should be, there are other guidelines which must be considered. That the proposal didn't consider them is not reason for the discussion not to. If the point was to hold a yes-or-no RfC limited to determining whether or not Kim Davis is a primary topic then we should have done that. This was a move proposal, and any comment on the proposal that is backed up by guidelines must be considered valid. Ivanvector 🍁 (talk) 15:04, 12 November 2015 (UTC)[reply]
- Endorse close Perhaps the closer should have deferred to an administrator, but in the end, I believe he acted properly and in good faith. That being said, I will not object if an administrator opens it for a formal administrator close, but I don't think that is necessary. Safiel (talk) 22:17, 10 November 2015 (UTC)[reply]
- Overturn (and probably relist) per B²C, -SmokeyJoe, and Calidum. The scope of the discussion was very narrow (a removal of the disambuguation "county clerk"), but ultimately it became a mulish rehash of the essay-based efforts to delete the biography altogether. While Tiggerjay's close as no consensus is by no means outrageous, a trout is deserved for not responding to the challenge posted on his talk page.- MrX 00:01, 11 November 2015 (UTC)[reply]
- Overturn (reclose, still no consensus) The MR is clearly contentious ( see all the previous discussions and ANIs etc. ) and does not appear to have a consensus either. While non-admins closing such discussions is strongly discouraged by the RMCI it is not outright forbidden and if that were the only issue I'd probably endorse. However for closes in such cases I'd rather see a much more detailed close then the one given for this one which is why this isn't an endorse. The "Explanation" given by the closer above is kind of what I would would have liked to see though perhaps with a bit less about sides etc. I really would have preferred seeing asking the participants to take a step back. While I haven't been involved in the discussion and am not 100% up on all the various RfCs etc it seems to me that several of the RMs votes come from differing options on the focus and point of the article. I'd suggest instead of another AfD, RM, MR, etc. that the editors involved in the articles try to see if they came come to some common ground on what of the topic should be covered and how and then once that is done then RMs, AfDs, etc. can be considered. PaleAqua (talk) 04:17, 11 November 2015 (UTC)[reply]
- Overturn. The majority of opposes wanted an article on the controversy to be the primary topic, and not a biography, which is a completely separate argument. If the current article was at Kim Davis same-sex marriage license controversy instead, three of the opposers would be happy with "Kim Davis" redirecting to it, so there is clear consensus for a primary topic. —Xezbeth (talk) 08:40, 18 November 2015 (UTC)[reply]
- Indeed, it would fit the titles policy for Kim Davis to be a redirect to this article about the controversy, when it is properly re-titled according to those same policies. Ivanvector 🍁 (talk) 18:40, 18 November 2015 (UTC)[reply]
- There is no consensus that such a re-titling would be in accordance with those polices. There is consensus that the topic of this article is the primary topic for Kim Davis. This is what the closer (and you) overlooked and why the decision should be reversed. --В²C ☎ 23:07, 18 November 2015 (UTC)[reply]
- Close, but not quite. Although the specific question has not been asked, there is a broad consensus from previous discussions that the content of this article makes it an article about an event, not a biography. That bears out in the many discussions where you were the only editor (or loudest of a small minority) advocating for it to be considered a biography, but this article just isn't and never could be, because Davis is only notable for the controversy. It also bears out in the content of the article: less than 10% of the article documents Davis' life before the event, and that's fine because she didn't do anything notable at all before what's documented in the article happened. Titling this article Kim Davis (with any disambiguator, or none) describes an article with a balanced biography of Kim Davis' entire life, and that's wrong because the controversy is not her entire life, even though she hasn't done anything at all of note outside of it. She might do other notable things in the future, most likely she will actually, but it's not for us to predict that. So we can move this article to Kim Davis now, because yes this event is the primary topic for that title, but this article will still be improperly titled. Do you want to allow the inevitable discussion about the proper title to happen? Or are you intent on continuing to bludgeon the false argument that this is a biography? Ivanvector 🍁 (talk) 23:53, 18 November 2015 (UTC)[reply]
Comment: I was prepared to close this RM as I had been following it for a while, but TiggerJay came along. I won’t share what my decision would have been as that is not what this MR is about. It is however a good case study in why non-admins should stay away from closing controversial RMs. No matter what their decision is, 50% of the contributors will be unhappy and likely challenge the close. MRs provide an opportunity to blow off a lot of steam and usually degrade into a rehash of the RM. Inexperienced closers are more likely to get trapped in such controversies. This RM is also a good case study demonstrating the minefield we’ve created with conflicting and inconsistent title policy, guidelines, MOS and disambiguation and such. Although the requestor made the nom based on Primary Topic (wrongly stated as policy but it is an editing guideline, not policy) others opposed the move based on other Wikipedia guidance and practice. Those arguing that those opposes should be discounted because they were not about Primary Topic fail to understand the overall intent of RM process and RMCI. Editors are free to support or oppose any RM request for any reason they see fit. Obviously reasons in some RMs are facetious and ill-considered (I have an essay on that) and can be discounted, but I didn't see that here. But there’s absolutely no requirement that I can find that says Supports or Opposes must explicitly comment on the requestor’s rationale and not enter new or different rationale for their position. Until such guidance to that effect is in place, Tiggerjay’s close was not egregious, but I trust a lesson has been learned. --Mike Cline (talk) 15:41, 19 November 2015 (UTC)[reply]
- I apologize for sometimes using "policy" when I mean "policy and guidelines", but the point is policies and guidelines like WP:PRIMARYTOPIC reflect WP:CONSENSUS, and the fact that article is the primary topic for "Kim Davis" by an overwhelming margin is unquestioned. Thanks for recognizing the minefield of contradictory guidance, something I constantly work to correct, but I don't think it's as bad as you seem to characterize it. Of course editors are free to support or oppose for any reason, but support and opposition is supposed to be weighed according to how much these reasons are based in policy and guidelines. The opposition in this original RM was not based on any policy or guideline. Their argument essentially amounted to "regardless of the fact that the proposed title meets policy and guidelines better than the current title, which we don't deny, we believe both violate WP:PSEUDO (an essay) and so think another third title is even better so we oppose because of the title that we prefer (and never mind that there is no consensus to move that title)". That is the essence of the argument presented in opposition, it has no basis in policy or guidelines, and therefore should have been weighed (very lightly) accordingly. That's what the closer missed, and apparently so did Mike Cline. --В²C ☎ 19:26, 19 November 2015 (UTC) edits for clarity --В²C ☎ 19:41, 19 November 2015 (UTC)[reply]
- Still not quite there. The opposition is based on the biographies of living persons policy and the notability guideline on people; WP:PSEUDO is a convenient expression of those policies and guidelines. Mike, I'm sure you were just speaking generally and didn't mean to say that any of the policy-based discussion in this debate has been facetious, and I hope that's not what's being understood here. Also, there's the "no consensus" argument again. "No consensus" is 100% correct but you are misinterpreting. "No consensus" means no decision to do anything. It doesn't mean a different title was rejected - the question was not answered. The discussion was closed because it was a mess, and rightly so, but it did not determine anything. Ivanvector 🍁 (talk) 20:07, 19 November 2015 (UTC)[reply]
- Yes, very much generalizing, as I stated in my opening sentence, I am not commenting on the specific merits of the RM discussion (ie re-hashing the RM) in this MR but was instead making a generalized observation on Tiggerjay's close. I edited my comment to clarify the "facetious" remark. --Mike Cline (talk) 21:45, 19 November 2015 (UTC)[reply]
- A well stated comment, thank you. It makes me wonder, should we rework/reword RMCI to clearly define RMNAC to be reserved specifically for move or not moved and therefore restrict no-consensus purely to admins? Tiggerjay (talk) 22:50, 19 November 2015 (UTC)[reply]
- The current guidance against NAC contentious close pretty much covers the issue.. No-consensus and contentious are really tangential concepts. Not all no-concensus results are that contentious, and we already have a problem where not-moved and no-consensus are confused for one another and such advice would push closes away from no-consensus that really should be. It also has to do with the experience of the closer in regards to being able to judge a close and explain it clearly. Being an admin is a good proxy for evaluating that skill/experience but there are non-admins that I would be more comfortable with making such closes. As I noted in my !vote above, my biggest concern with your close was not that it was a NAC but how the result was presented. PaleAqua (talk) 23:34, 19 November 2015 (UTC)[reply]
- Point well stated. Also while I never replied directly to your !vote above earlier, I would say when evaluating this closure, I wasn't discussing or even thinking of sides, but by the time I became aware of this MR, it was already pretty well established there was 'sides' to this issue. Point well taking that a more thorough explanation as to what was evaluated in the middle of a contentious closure would have been preferred. And at that time, the use of 'sides' probably wouldn't have entered the dialogue. Tiggerjay (talk) 02:20, 20 November 2015 (UTC)[reply]
- If you weren't thinking of sides, then that's why you probably overlooked that the opposing side was not disagreeing with the key basis for the proposal: the proposed title Kim Davis met policy/guidelines better than the current title, Kim Davis (county clerk). They just feel so strongly about the alternative title that any change not to their preferred title is of no interest to them. But taking into account the result of the previous RM where there clearly was no consensus for an alternative title as they promote, the question of consensus favoring the proposed title should have been easy. It was something like 6 in support, 0 opposed, and 5 no opinion on the specific KD vs KD (cc) question. That's consensus by any measure. --В²C ☎ 21:11, 20 November 2015 (UTC)[reply]
Discussion of BLP issues better suited for article talk page than this discussion
|
- BLP issues irrelevant to this discussion. There is indeed a BLP concern with the article. There is the BLP1E angle. Does the article need to comment on marriages and children and public ridicule? Does being an elected official mean that she is fair game, or at least not presumed to be a private individual? Does the action, of public office bureaucratic-legal disobedience, an act of official protest defeat the private individual safety net, even if only done precisely once? These are worthy questions that go to whether her name should be in the title, whether it should be structured as a biography, or whether it should be retitled to focus on the controversy. However, my main point here is that whatever the BLP-issues debate, they factor out of the specific question of "Kim Davis (county clerk)" vs "Kim Davis". The disambiguator does nothing to heighten or lessen the fact that it is a biography article title, and so BLP issues are irrelevant to the RM. There is no BLP issue with her being named prominently in the title or just in the text as having been a county clerk. --SmokeyJoe (talk) 23:01, 19 November 2015 (UTC)[reply]
- (e/c)Somewhat off-topic, but I realize I never commented on your proposition on the speedy-relist be performed by me at the first objection... I would have been more than happy to oblige your request, however, by the time I became aware of the controversy over the move (10 days later), a lengthy discussion had already taken place on the page talk and then again on this move review -- So it seems this grew online bigger than something a simple revert 10 days later would suffice. Tiggerjay (talk) 02:20, 20 November 2015 (UTC)[reply]
- Exactly. When the proposal is to move A to B per policy (or guideline) P1, the closer should not give much if any weight to the argument opposing because C, D or E are preferable over B and A per policy P2, especially when the preference of B over A per P1 is conceded.
- For example, say the article about Paris was at Paris, France, Europe and someone proposed moving it to Paris, France based on COMMONNAME and because previous a recent attempt to move it to Paris failed. When there is substantial support agreeing with the nom, and the only opposition to Paris, France, Europe → Paris, France are from people who argue it should be Paris, what should the closer do? Give the opposition equal weight? I don't think so. That's exactly the kind of argument that needs to be heavily discounted. And that's the same argument given here. --В²C ☎ 02:04, 20 November 2015 (UTC)[reply]
- Instead of restating your opinions, how about you support your position with policy and precedent? Is there policy or precedent which agrees that alternative votes should be "heavily discounted"? Otherwise it appears that you're simply policy picking (also see WP:GAMETYPE) those policies which support your view, and "heavily discounting" those that do not, causing you to believe there was much more support for your move than there actually was. P1 and P2... along with 3, 4, 5 and 6, are all valid polices, guides or precedents that should be evaluated when presented by an editor. Don't talk in the hypothetical regarding Paris, talk in the specifics -- where is the precedent that the proposes policy carries a super majority over other policies? It is not about what should be, our ought to be, but rather what is the case. Tiggerjay (talk) 02:33, 20 November 2015 (UTC)[reply]
- By "alternative votes" what do you mean? Opposition to a proposal based on support for a third "alternative" choice? I doubt there is much if any precedent for that when the proposed title is clearly favored over the current title per policy/guidelines. I've seen alternatives supported and even achieving consensus support in some cases, if I recall correctly, but that's when the proposed title is not considered to be preferable to the current title. That's different. --В²C ☎ 02:50, 20 November 2015 (UTC)[reply]
- if you are going to go all "wiki lawyer - cannot consider things other than specifically proposed" then the whole proposed move was out of process in the first place as there was no consensus about whether the framing content should be under the name of a living woman in the first place. -- TRPoD aka The Red Pen of Doom 03:01, 20 November 2015 (UTC)[reply]
- (ec) You keep bringing up "clearly favored title" -- as if everyone supports it. Don't you see there is mixed support in this MR (as well as the original RM), as such, it should indicate to you that there is nothing "obvious" regarding support your proposal. However, I believe you're missing the point, as I am not suggesting your right or wrong on the suggested title, but rather that there simply was no consensus from the discussion. If you believe that I'm siding with the "opposition" then you're completely wrong in your assessment of me, and lumping me in to the wrong crowd. As such, it might do you well to AGF and review my original explanation above. My closure was based on a lack of consensus after weighing the information provided against policy, guides and precedent. A closure of no consensus does not affirm that the requested move was the right OR wrong proposal, but simply that there was no agreement, even after factoring in policy, guidelines and precedent. Furthermore I submit that all of your initial claims in the MR have been asked, and answered already - your concerns were found to be unfounded after I was available to answer the accusations you presented. You may disagree, but your concerns have all been addressed. To bring up new arguments, or to continue to argue your point isn't taking us anywhere. It's time to drop the stick and don't bludgeon the process.Tiggerjay (talk) 03:18, 20 November 2015 (UTC)[reply]
- We seem to be talking past each other. I don't question that there is "mixed support" in this MR and in the original RM. The whole point is about how that "mixed support" is weighed in terms of basis in applicable policy and guidelines. If you weigh it all evenly without regard to basis in applicable policy and guidelines, then yeah, it looks like no consensus. Just above, TheRedPenOfDoom is arguing the RM was "out of process ... as there was no consensus about whether the framing content". That is his basis for opposing the RM, and much of the opposition simply referred to his !vote. In the choice between Proposed and Current titles, many, but not a consensus, preferred None of the Above. No question about that. But there is no way you could read that discussion and find anything other than clear support of the Proposed title over the Current title when only those two were being considered. That's what you missed, and are still missing, apparently. Which is why your decision should be overturned. --В²C ☎ 18:30, 20 November 2015 (UTC)[reply]
- There's a big difference here between discounting opinions which have no basis in policy, versus discounting opinions which are based in policies other than the one you cherrypicked that happens to support your position. (I'm using policy and guideline interchangeably here, as everyone else has been). Ivanvector 🍁 (talk) 19:07, 20 November 2015 (UTC)[reply]
- I'm not cherry-picking anything. Nobody can deny that WP:PSEUDO and the policies it is based on has no applicability to finding policy preference between Kim Davis and Kim Davis (county clerk) as titles for this article. The only relevance it may have is to the question of whether some other title is preferred by policy over both of those titles. But even if that's true (and there is no consensus that it is), you can't deny that Kim Davis is preferred by policy over Kim Davis (county clerk). Or, more to the point, you can't deny that nobody even argued to the contrary at the RM, demonstrating clear consensus (absent any opposition) in that discussion for the opinion that Kim Davis is supported by policy better than Kim Davis (county clerk) is. That's what the closer missed and why the decision should be overturned. --В²C ☎ 20:51, 20 November 2015 (UTC)[reply]
- Absolutely I can argue your policy preference point, because it's only preferred by the policy you cherrypicked, and not by others which also apply despite your insistence that they do not. One of these proposed titles is not preferable to the other because when all relevant policies and guidelines are considered, both titles are wrong. It's a false dichotomy to insist that we must choose between only these two titles - choosing not to choose is a completely valid option. Ivanvector 🍁 (talk) 21:09, 20 November 2015 (UTC)[reply]
- It's not a false dichotomy. Whether title A or B is preferred by policy is always a valid question, independent of whether there may be another title C that is preferred by policy even more. And this is especially relevant when it has been recently established that there is no consensus support for the notion that C is preferred even better by policy. You can say you're arguing the point, but unless you identify a policy-based argument presented in the original RM that prefers Kim Davis (county clerk) over Kim Davis, or denies the preferring of Kim Davis over Kim Davis (county clerk) per WP:PRIMARYTOPIC, you've argued nothing. Nobody even argued that it's a wash between those two titles. --В²C ☎ 21:20, 20 November 2015 (UTC)[reply]
- "Nobody even argued that it's a wash between those two titles" - that's literally the only argument that you've made here, by repeatedly stating that no other titles should be considered. Ivanvector 🍁 (talk) 21:27, 20 November 2015 (UTC)[reply]
- I never said no other titles should be considered. My point is that the consideration of other titles is irrelevant to the question of whether either of these two titles is better supported by policy. Look, it comes down to this:
- Per the previous RM, there is no consensus that the title should reflect the event rather than the name of the person.
- Per this RM, there is consensus that Kim Davis meets title policy better than Kim Davis (county clerk).
- Do you disagree with either of these assertions? If so, which one and why? If not, the argument based on these assertions is that per them there is consensus to move, and the closer missed that. --В²C ☎ 22:38, 20 November 2015 (UTC)[reply]
- Good breakdown, thanks. I disagree with your linkage between these two, and with your conclusion. In the first case, no consensus is just that - no consensus. It is not "consensus to not move". The RM you're referring to was a massive disaster, it was a shouting match and didn't determine anything except that sometimes the community is awful at discussing things. As for (2), I agree (but I wouldn't quite call it consensus, there are others who disagree) that the undabbed title is preferred by one aspect of the title policy than the dabbed one, but there are other aspects of that policy and others that must be considered before we decide on a move. Settling this one minor point does not prescribe a move, it prescribes more discussion. Ivanvector 🍁 (talk) 17:49, 21 November 2015 (UTC)[reply]
- Ivanvector Thank you for clarifying your view on this. The first point is relevant because that previous RM discussion established that there is significant support for a BLP about this Kim Davis with a title reflecting her name; sufficient numbers to make a title change to one reflecting the event very unlikely, at least in the foreseeable future. That means, for better or for worse, the title will continue to reflect her name, with or without the disambiguation, for the foreseeable future. I know you don't like this, and I'm sorry about that, but surely it can't be denied, right? If nothing else, a resubmission of an RM to reflect a title change to one reflecting the event is likely to be closed almost immediately (because: "too soon").
As to the second point, let's not conflate the literal dictionary meaning of the word consensus with the more nuanced definition that is relevant here, and quite clearly explained at WP:CONSENSUS. The main difference is that for "dictionary consensus" there can be no opposition/disagreement from those participating. That's not the standard that matters for determining "consensus" on WP, as I'm sure you know. It is in that context that I say the discussion established that we have consensus for the county clerk being the primary topic for Kim Davis. As such, it's contrary to WP policy and guidelines to leave the dab page at Kim Davis. At the least it should be a link to this article, but it's almost always plain silly to link [[Title]] to [[Title (disambiguation)]], so what makes sense is to just move the article in question to the plain name. That's the connection between the two points that the closer missed, and mistook all the disagreement as a cloud of non-consensus confusion. He didn't dig through the details as was necessary to identify that WP:CONSENSUS per WP:PRIMARY TOPIC for the move from Kim Davis (county clerk) to Kim Davis was indeed established, and that "opposing" arguments that the title should be an alternative reflecting the event per WP:PSEUDO (etc) were not relevant to this primary topic question and RM issue. That's why we're here. --В²C ☎ 18:14, 23 November 2015 (UTC)[reply]
- (ec) It appears you narrowly believe that RM is a !vote between either keep or move, and that there are is no room for alternative titles. It is not clear to me what makes you believe that other titles shouldn't be considered. You have not demonstrated through policy, guideline or precedent that alternate names carry a "discounted" vote or shouldn't be considered in the close. On the other hand, here are a few examples where an alternate title did carry weight: Talk:2-in-1_PC Talk:Killing_of_Cecil_the_lion Talk:Pop_Laval. Plus, lets look at RMCI, regarding what no consensus is: "...a discussion has fractured into several possible titles ... because equally strong arguments and appeals to Wikipedia policy and outside sources were found on both sides, without a clear winner in the discussion." That is precisely what we have here. Tiggerjay (talk) 21:22, 20 November 2015 (UTC)[reply]
- In any disagreement it's often helpful to restate what you believe the other's position to be, just to make sure you're at least understanding each other. Thank you for attempting to do this. Sadly, what this shows is that either I can't write or you can't read. In any case, I categorically deny that I "believe that RM is a !vote between either keep or move, and that there are is no room for alternative titles". If that's what you're concluding from what I've written here, or at the RM you closed, I can't help you understand. But, believe me, you're not understanding. And that's why your decision needs to be overturned. You still don't get it. --В²C ☎ 22:38, 20 November 2015 (UTC)[reply]
|
Meta-discussion about closing this discussion
|
- Motion to close this is getting nowhere. I welcome a non-involved admin to review and make an appropriate closure. Enough time and bytes have been spent on this issue, and we're no further closure now than a week ago. Pinging the last four admins who closed MRs: SilkTork, Cuchullain, Explicit, and Jenks24. Tiggerjay (talk) 23:10, 20 November 2015 (UTC)[reply]
- I endorse this motion to close. I don't think we're close to an agreement on what's being discussed here. We're definitely not getting any closer. Ivanvector 🍁 (talk) 17:49, 21 November 2015 (UTC)[reply]
- By pinging your four preferred closers, you damage their credentials as uninvolved. Involved editors in a discussion should not get involved in the closing, and inviting specific closers to close is crossing a line. --SmokeyJoe (talk) 23:15, 22 November 2015 (UTC)[reply]
- @SmokeyJoe: did you read the post at all? This is not preferred closers, but rather exactly the last four people who closed (non-proceedurally) MRs. There was no cherry picking, and these editors were not involved at all in the Move Review. The purpose of the ping was to get active admins involved in MR closures to get involved in something that is WP:TLDR worthy. 00:58, 23 November 2015 (UTC)
- I ask and advise you to step back from the line. The selection criteria applied may or may not be impartial. The last four may or may not be representative. Requests for closure should be made at Wikipedia:Administrators'_noticeboard/Requests_for_closure, not by pinging or other messaging of any subset of people, especially by an involved editor or closer. --SmokeyJoe (talk) 01:45, 23 November 2015 (UTC)[reply]
- Requested at WP:ANRFC. Ivanvector 🍁 (talk) 14:57, 23 November 2015 (UTC)[reply]
- Agree that ANIRFC is a better process for closing. Although your tone is way out of line. Tiggerjay (talk) 02:44, 24 November 2015 (UTC)[reply]
|
- Nom's Summary. Thank you everyone for participating. As the nom, I wish to summarize. Hopefully it will help. There are two separate questions about the title of this article.
- Is Kim Davis the county clerk sufficiently notable to have a BLP titled by her name (be it disambiguated or not)?
- If there is an article with her name as the title, should that title be disambiguated or not?
- A recent RM proposal addressed the first of these two questions and resulted in a "no consensus" finding. The subsequent RM proposal and discussion that this MR is reviewing addressed only the second of these two questions. The opposition to this second RM proposal was almost exclusively concerned with the first of these two questions. Where the second question was addressed, the consensus was practically unanimous that the title should not be disambiguated per WP:PRIMARYTOPIC. The first question remains unresolved and is likely to remain so for at least the typical minimum six months that normally passes before an RM is reconsidered. In the mean time, there is consensus that Kim Davis meets policy/guidelines better than the current title. The first question will remain unresolved indefinitely and perhaps forever. In the mean time, that unresolved issue should not keep this article from being moved to a title which meets policy/guidelines better than the current title, per consensus. The closer of the RM overlooked this consensus and its significance in the context of the first question above being unresolved, and therefore missed the consensus supporting the move. That is why the closer's "no consensus" result should be reversed. --В²C ☎ 21:17, 23 November 2015 (UTC)[reply]
- If you support the motion to have an admin close this discussion, why are you still discussing it? No need to reply, it is just rhetorical. Tiggerjay (talk) 02:34, 24 November 2015 (UTC)[reply]
- If a tree falls in the forest, and anybody hears, are they the primary topic? ;) Ivanvector 🍁 (talk) 18:46, 25 November 2015 (UTC)[reply]
- COMMENT: Should Kim Davis be Time's person of the year? Time magazine has a poll where you can vote for Time's person of the year. There are 59 nominees. Kim Davis is one of them. Of course she won't win, but the fact that she is sufficiently notable to be one of only 59 candidates out of the 7 billion people in the world to be considered for Time's Person of the Year, but still not sufficiently notable to have a biography on Wikipedia, is simply absurd. And yet that absurdity, my friends, is the basis for the "opposition" to the RM to which the closer mistakenly gave significant weight. --В²C ☎ 16:57, 25 November 2015 (UTC)[reply]
- If anything, this shows that the conditions under which the original move request was made a month ago have changed, making this whole discussion invalid. Anyway, for anyone else who's interested, there is a discussion on what to do with this new info at Talk:Kim Davis (county clerk) (which will possibly have been renamed as a result of this discussion). Ivanvector 🍁 (talk) 18:46, 25 November 2015 (UTC)[reply]
- B2C, she is still only notable in this one narrow sense. Nominations for Time magazine prove nothing. Anyone can vote for anyone. The fact is that during the move discussion, no consensus developed, and therefore the article was not moved. TiggerJay's close was appropriate. Omnedon (talk) 20:01, 25 November 2015 (UTC)[reply]
Conceptual discussion of consensus out of scope for this discussion
|
- Whether there was consensus (in the dictionary sense) among the participants in that RM discussion is irrelevant. Whether WP:CONSENSUS did or did not develop based on proper weighting of policy basis in the various arguments in that RM discussion is the very issue that is in dispute here. If it were a fact that there was no WP:CONSENSUS then there would be no reason for this MR discussion. --В²C ☎ 05:30, 28 November 2015 (UTC)[reply]
- Precisely, and there is indeed no reason for it. There was no consensus to move. Omnedon (talk) 10:31, 28 November 2015 (UTC)[reply]
- When you say there was "no consensus" to move, by "consensus" do you mean the dictionary definition of consensus, or the Wikipedia definition of consensus? --В²C ☎ 22:52, 29 November 2015 (UTC)[reply]
- Please stop trying to wedge / wikilawyer your creative interpretation of consensus, which requires a closer to supervote by analysing !votes against your preferred style of reading of policy. Wikipedia:Consensus and wikt:consensus are the same thing, to a reasonable reading, noting that it is a concept that defies precise definition. --SmokeyJoe (talk) 23:06, 29 November 2015 (UTC)[reply]
- I did not make up WP:CONSENSUS. It and wikt:consensus share very little in concept. Don't blame the messenger. Read it, especially Wikipedia:Consensus#Determining_consensus. "Consensus is ascertained by the quality of the arguments given on the various sides of an issue, as viewed through the lens of Wikipedia policy" does not suggest or imply a super vote; it means consensus on WP is determined by objectively weighing the arguments presented "through the lens of Wikipedia policy". In theory there can be one strong policy-based argument on one side supported by only one person, and a weak or totally irrelevant argument on the other supported by dozens, and the strong argument represents WP:CONSENSUS (but certainly not wikt:consensus). Anyone who does not understand and appreciate the difference should not be opining about what consensus means on WP. --В²C ☎ 23:43, 29 November 2015 (UTC)[reply]
- That line is tangential to the policy, summarising another page, an information page; it does not redefine "consensus". Consensus is often a fuzzy thing, and ascertaining it, or calling a rough consensus, is a matter of skill and wisdom, not definitions. The line assumes that policy represents consensus (usually true and unchallenged here), and its attempt at poetry reflects the fuzziness of the challenge. However, what is most important that I think you might have missed is that it for the discussion to identify applicable policy, and the degree to which it applies, it is not for the closer to both introduce and rule on. NB I am not arguing against the substance of you nomination, but the recent assertion that consensus is something that people would not naturally think it is. Consensus was apparent in the discussion, or it was not, and it is not for a closer to come along afterwards to find a line in a policy document to establish a "consensus" that was not evident in the discussion. --SmokeyJoe (talk) 01:14, 30 November 2015 (UTC)[reply]
- The closer must distinguish between dictionary consensus and WP:CONSENSUS because the former may clearly not exist in a discussion, while the latter may be equally clearly obvious. They are that different. And it has nothing to do with the closer acting as a supervote or finding basis in policy not raised in the discussion. An extreme example, for illustration purposes only, is a discussion comprised of one support argument strongly based in policy, and nine pure WP:JDLI !votes in opposition. Fairly clear dictionary consensus opposing the proposal (9 to 1), and yet equally clear WP:CONSENSUS supporting it. Vive la difference! --В²C ☎ 17:06, 30 November 2015 (UTC)[reply]
- I'll give you some ground there, if that's what you mean. I would prefer to call it at Rough Consesus, which is a call of where the discussion is heading, if all arguments put were evaluated. It particularly applies frequently in binary decisions. --SmokeyJoe (talk) 01:19, 2 December 2015 (UTC)[reply]
- The point is that dictionary consensus is about getting everyone involved to agree (and "rough dictionary consensus" is about getting almost everyone to agree), whereas WP WP:CONSENSUS is about determining whether one position or another is strongly supported by policy/guidelines per the arguments presented by the participants, and the other is not. Very different. --В²C ☎ 17:48, 2 December 2015 (UTC)[reply]
- Actually, your statement "dictionary consensus is about getting everyone involved to agree" is inadequate, because it truncates after "to agree". To agree "to what"? In consensus building, agreeing on the question is as important as agreeing on the answer. It doesn't really apply to the binary question of "move" or "not move" to that precise new name. In the precise question of the RM, User:The_Red_Pen_of_Doom may have been able to agree, or at least not actively disagree, has the question been explicitly premised with "Notwithstanding ongoing BLP discussions on the appropriateness of the subject's name being in the title, and given that it currently is in the title, this proposed rename addresses only is issue of parenthetical disambiguation. ..." On careful reading of the objection by RPoD and some others, I sense reaction to an implied approval of using the subject name in the title by supporting a consensus agreement for a title with the subject name in the title. This is actually not an uncommon parliamentary game. If people are uneasy about the thing in general, propose a number of significant amendments to affirmations (of something) that can be used in tricky paraphrasing to build an impression for general approval. More respect of consensus should have seen an agreement to an explicit caveat that approving the RM should not be taken as approving the status quo on the BLP issues. I disagree with your position that WP:Consensus is very different for a few reason, another that it is not the intention of the policy page to discourage true Consensus decision-making. It think the "no consensus" close can be easily defended, as are all no consensus closes in general, but that a more carefully crafted question may achieve consensus without need to resort to an administrative ruling on evaluation of arguments through the lens of policy. Alternatively, if the RM is overturned to "move", I think the decision should note the caveat that this decision should not be taken to imply any approval of including the subject's name in the title. --SmokeyJoe (talk) 22:17, 2 December 2015 (UTC)[reply]
- Actually, there are two primary "dictionary" definitions of consensus, only one of which requires unanimity. The other involves mere majority opinion. Try looking through a serious of dictionaries, including major physical ones, including this online one. That concludes my interest in and contribution to this spectacle. Antinoos69 (talk) 21:02, 2 December 2015 (UTC)[reply]
- So in that sense of dictionary consensus it can be what SmokeyJoe calls a "rough consensus", but so what? What matters here is not that, but WP:CONSENSUS. --В²C ☎ 21:08, 2 December 2015 (UTC)[reply]
- So precisely what I said, no more and no less—beginning, middle, and end. Antinoos69 (talk) 21:19, 2 December 2015 (UTC)[reply]
|
- Original Move Closer - Closing Summary - based on the accidental close by Alsee, it has brought up that my position on the MR might not be clear because of how lengthy and convoluted this discussion has become. I don't want this to spur a new discussion, but rather just to make it clear that my position is generally unchanged. I believe the original close should be maintained as a proper closure. However, I do believe that a more clear close rationale should have been provided to avoid the speculation which has occurred on this page. Notwithstanding, I still believe endorse close is still the appropriate action. I trust that whoever decides to close this discussion will weigh only the elements which discuss the policy, procedures and precedents as it applies to the "appropriateness of the close", versus the merits of the original move arguments which continue to be brought up here and the other discussions regarding redefining terms such as consensus. Tiggerjay (talk) 06:08, 30 December 2015 (UTC)[reply]
- The fact that you think following what WP:CONSENSUS says when determining "consensus" in a WP discussion is "redefining consensus" speaks volumes. --В²C ☎ 21:24, 13 January 2016 (UTC)[reply]
- It appears you are reading into my statement something that simply doesn't exist. I have read it a couple of times over the last 2 hours and still cannot make heads or tails of what you're trying to say. My comment above as part of "Closing Summary" is simply to state that I trust whoever closes this MR will do so based on the policy, procedures and precedents that apply to "the appropriateness of the close" -- and NOT on the merits of the other discussions such the one regarding defining or redefining consensus. Perhaps you are confused, as I have NOT gotten involved in the discussion above regarding what is and is not WP:CONSENSUS, I believe it speaks for itself. As such, I'm not sure what "volumes" you believe it speaks of me. Outside of my initial explanation of the close, I have used the word 'consensus' 3 times, and never in the context of suggesting what it does or does not mean - I believe the majority of people here agree it means WP:CONSENSUS - however you have argued the meaning multiple times with multiple editors - I was not one of those... So whatever you are implying I believe, you're probably wrong in that assumption. Tiggerjay (talk) 02:58, 14 January 2016 (UTC)[reply]
- You have written nothing anywhere that I've read that suggests you recognize and respect that consensus (meaning WP:CONSENSUS) in WP discussions is determined by evaluating the merit of arguments in terms of how strongly they are based in policy and guidelines. Your close did not indicate that you do, nor do any of your comments here. You simply reassert that there was no consensus, without explaining how you determined that. Perhaps I jumped to a conclusion, but it really wasn't much of a leap at all. --В²C ☎ 22:47, 14 January 2016 (UTC)[reply]
- Endorse close. There clearly was not consensus, and the "strong" rationales of the proponents of the move did in fact turn out to be WP:RECENTISM, as interest in, searches for, and page views here to read about this person have slumped dramatically just in the time this dispute has been on. WP:NOT#NEWS is policy for a reason. Just because there's some flash-in-the-pan "holy crap! this is hot stuff!" reaction in the general public does not magically make something the encyclopedic WP:PRIMARY topic. This is basic logic, really. If just being trendy right now were a criterion, then every single top-10 pop song with a name that coincided with something else would automatically become the primary topic for a couple of weeks. As a [Gedankenexperiment] Error: {{Lang}}: text has italic markup (help), it's not actually implausible to rework the PRIMARYTOPIC and RM systems to support such a regime, and it wouldn't actually be irrational (it would in fact get more people more quickly to the article they're looking for), but it would be an insane pain in the rear to administer and clean up after. The fact of the matter is we certainly do not have any such "PRIMARYTOPIC of the day" system at a present, so it was basically not possible for this to close with a result to remove the parenthetical disambiguation on such a basis. If this did not conclude with no consensus it would have to conclude with consensus against, or it would be a silly mistake, and everyone supporting it would look foolish for a month or two later.
PS: The WP:PSEUDO argument, inasmuch as it's being advanced against the RM decision, is clearly untenable. The article and the news/story/facts behind it are obviously about this person, not about "clerks who deny gay-marriage licenses" in general, though that article could be written and much of this article could be merged into it. It's an important fact that various other clerks could have been notable for this, too, but were not, and garnered almost no public notice. So Davis being an article-worthy topic isn't really an open issue. The open one (regardless of this RM/MR) is whether broader topical material is being coatracked into this article as a WP:PSEUDO matter and should be elsewhere; but that won't have any effect on the title of this article. PS: The "was a Time Person of the Year nominee" thing has jack to do with anything other than establishing notability. Being notable simply means you get an article, it doesn't magically make your article a primary topic. PPPS: I entirely concur with Ivanvector's summary of the history of the debate about this pair of interwoven topic areas here (just text-search this page for "clusterfuck" and you'll find it). — SMcCandlish ☺ ☏ ¢ ≽ʌⱷ҅ᴥⱷʌ≼ 08:05, 30 December 2015 (UTC); clarified 00:33, 14 January 2016 (UTC)<[reply]
- SMcCandlish, primary topic determination and the related title selection is all about usage relative to the other uses of that name. There is no question that recentism is a factor here, but this person has received far more coverage in reliable sources than all of the other uses ever have, or ever will. There may be some other Kim Davis in the future that changes that, but until that happens, relative to the other ones, this one is the primary topic. If there were no other uses of "Kim Davis" then this article would be at Kim Davis. Given the relative obscurity of the other uses to this one, that should still be the case. --В²C ☎ 21:24, 13 January 2016 (UTC)[reply]
- I already addressed this. The very fact that pageviews for this person have fallen to hardly anything as soon as the media attention died down clearly indicates it was a recentism issue. We don't rename articles based on what is popular this week. I'm unaware of any news archive search system that would allow anyone to test your hypothesis that this particular Kim Davis has in total garnered more coverage in reliable sources than any other Kim Davis. All that's available is results showing that in very recent coverage (mid-June 2015 ff.) this Kim Davis is in the news more. I.e., the only evidence against this being a case of recentism is ... actual evidence of this being a case of recentism?
Google hits aren't really indicative of much anyway, other than what people are tweeting and redditing about (i.e. ... recentism). Real-world results are far more important. One of the other Kim Davises was inducted into the Hockey Hall of Fame, a major honor in a major sport. The Kim Davis at issue here doesn't appear to have been accorded any comparable honor. "Fired up some debate in the US for a year" isn't much of a notability claim. It's sufficient for an article here, since the debate is sourceable and her connection to helping generate it is, too, but that doesn't mean "primary topic". There's also an Americanism issue at work here. Many Americans do not realize that the rest of the world does not concern itself with the religious fist-shaking of random U.S. individuals, even if their antics inspire or piss off various of their American neighbors. If this Kim Davis had been in a different English-speaking country, e.g. New Zealand, and did exactly the same thing there, with the same result in the NZ press, but a similar lack of interest on the part of the rest of the world, we would not be having this "is this particular Kim Davis the primary topic for that name?" discussion. Everyone would recognize it as parochial promotion of NZ interests. Finally, from an encyclopedic point of view, we're doing readers an anti-WP:COMMONSENSE disservice here. This is not at all the first time a public official in the US has defied the Supreme Court and commingled their personal beliefs with their official role (e.g. refused to allow black students into schools, refused to take down Ten Commandments plaques from public buildings, etc.) This one case is part of a long continuum of such actions and debate about them. We need an article about that, with most of the content in it, and only short bios of the specific individuals involved, like this Kim Davis. Our own article on her is starting to read like something out of People magazine. It's not encyclopedically important at all whether this Davis somehow got into various events like Papal visits or the State of the Union address, any more than our article on Nicholas Cage is going to cover whether he gets special seats upon request at a particular restaurant, or whether John Perry Barlow has ever been on Air Force One (hint: he has). Articles like this need to be concise, and focused on individuals as they relate to what they're encyclopedically notable for, not trivia about them. And not as coatracks in WP:PSEUDO form to tie encyclopedically historical information to specific people because someone wants to focus on the person instead of the events. — SMcCandlish ☺ ☏ ¢ ≽ʌⱷ҅ᴥⱷʌ≼ 00:33, 14 January 2016 (UTC)[reply]
- Thank you, you've made my point, sir. In this long piece you've hardly even recognized the existence of the other uses, much less addressed the relative likelihood of this Kim Davis being searched to them, which is what determining primary topic requires. This Kim Davis' sudden surge in popularity relative to her own popularity, and subsequent decline, and the reasons for it, are all irrelevant. What's important is, well, I won't repeat myself. --В²C ☎ 22:47, 14 January 2016 (UTC)[reply]
|
