Wikipedia:Peer review/Fujiwara no Teika/archive2

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Fujiwara no Teika[edit]

The previous peer review is at Wikipedia:Peer review/Fujiwara no Teika/archive1

I recently did a major overhaul of this article, after the previous FAC failed, and I'd like feedback on it, 's all. --maru (talk) contribs 03:50, 6 July 2006 (UTC)[reply]

I've addressed the comments about the infobox, the spaces between references, additional categorization and their alphabetization, and the weasel words. However, I did not address the MOSNUM objection, since I can't find what triggered it; I feel the lead is fine as it is, can't really see how to improve it; didn't do anything about summaries since no section, except perhaps the Teika/Go-Toba feud can stand on its own; and as far as redundancy and copyediting goes, I can't judge anymore- I've worked on it too much. --maru (talk) contribs 03:17, 11 July 2006 (UTC)[reply]
  • I think the length of the lead section is appropriate. The article, excluding the end matter (bibliography, references, etc.) checks in under 30K, so the present two paragraphs meets the (mechanical) length requirement.
  • Check each paragraph and see whether things can be said better. Instead of "not to be confused with the rival Rokujo" why not say "rivals of the Rokujo." That paragraph has only one sentence, but the sentence has nearly 150 words. Can you break it down? You link to Shunzei's Daughter and Priest Jakuren, and separately to Jakuren; are those the likely titles of articles for the red links? Note that Shunzei has a red link to Fujiwara Toshinari no Musume (same person as Shunzei's Daughter), and links to priests seldom begin with the word "priest." Is "Fujiwara no Nariee" correct?
Nariee is indeed correct; I just double-checked it (you may be confused by the fact that there is a Fujiwara no Ariee who was also contemporary with Teika, but he's a different person). Good thing I kept the page numbers. As for the linking, I just wrote those two articles, so that should simplify things. --maru (talk) contribs 02:15, 12 July 2006 (UTC)[reply]
Are you sure they're not Nariie and Ariie (in both cases, "i," not "e,"appears twice.) This makes sense as a Japanese name, and "-ie" was fairly common ("Tameie" being an example). In contrast, -ee is quite uncommon, and I can't think of kanji that would make sense there. Since you checked it and confirmed that it's the same as your source, I'd guess the source has a misprint. Fg2 12:32, 12 July 2006 (UTC)[reply]
Yes, I am quite sure that they are different people. Why? Because in Travelers of a Hundred Ages, Keene gives Nariee as a brother of Teika, and a son of Shunzei; in Seeds in the Heart, Keene mentions a judgement by Shunzei of two poems, one by Ariee and one by Teika- and remarks that he may be biased by his fathership of Teika, and that if Ariee's father, Fujiwara no Shigeie were there/alive, he would no doubt be biased as well! --maru (talk) contribs 01:29, 13 July 2006 (UTC)[reply]
Time out! I'm not questioning whether they're different people. In fact, I can't recall ever hearing of either, and I started this line of comment before you mentioned the latter. What I'm questioning is the spelling of the names. Lots of names end in "-ie" but I can't think of an example of a name ending in "ee." (If I were to see the kanji, I might be convinced.) Fg2 01:51, 13 July 2006 (UTC)[reply]
Apparently the kanji are 藤原俊成 and the spelling Fujiwara no Nariie (rather than Nariee). See this page, for example, or browse for 藤原俊成　成家. Son of Shunzei, brother of Teika (according to various non-academic links). Fg2 02:14, 13 July 2006 (UTC)[reply]
I'll add a little parenthetical note to that effect and borrow those kanji. --maru (talk) contribs 18:20, 17 July 2006 (UTC)[reply]
  • Can you write "Jakuren" generally instead of "Priest Jakuren" (following the model "Saigyo" instead of "Monk Saigyo")? Likewise Nun Abutsu.
Done. --maru (talk) contribs 02:15, 12 July 2006 (UTC)[reply]
  • You have a link to Wood of Ikuta, but not Ikuta Shrine, although the shrine has an article, and information on the wood seems likely to occupy a section in the article on the shrine, rather than a separate article.
Done. --maru (talk) contribs 02:15, 12 July 2006 (UTC)[reply]
  • Speaking of links, you should click every link and check for redirects. If you find any, you can update the link using pipes.
This is not actually needed, see Wikipedia:Redirect#Don't fix links to redirects that aren't broken - and in some cases may be undesirable, for instance a more specific link being redirected to a parent topic. --zippedmartin 23:38, 11 July 2006 (UTC)[reply]
I'm astonished! I've fixed hundreds of indirect links. Now I'll have to find another purpose for life... Thanks for pointing that out. Fg2 12:37, 12 July 2006 (UTC)[reply]
I enjoy taking good scholarly reference works and fixing up articles on mentioned subjects, FWIW. --maru (talk) contribs 01:29, 13 July 2006 (UTC)[reply]
Done. (Think those are called tildes, incidentally)--maru (talk)

contribs 02:15, 12 July 2006 (UTC)[reply]

I call them "swung dashes." Since they're common in dictionaries, I tried Merriam-Webster and found an entry for it, although they don't show it. OED also has it, with an example, and says that when they first used the symbol in 1930 they called it a tilde. Fg2 12:32, 12 July 2006 (UTC)[reply]
  • I hope to do some more... Fg2 08:21, 11 July 2006 (UTC)[reply]
  • Do we need the aside on Retired Emperor Toba? Given that the article on him is only a click away, I'd suggest removing it.
Well, I'll think about it. His article could actually use a dump from Teika to flesh it out, but on the other hand, Go-Toba is pretty central to Teika's life. --maru (talk) contribs 02:43, 12 July 2006 (UTC)[reply]
  • The article states that positions of the center ranked the highest, followed by right, then left. Is this correct? I thought left ranked highest, but I'm often wrong about such things. In any case, the aside is unnecessarily detailed, and could better be summarized as "a low-ranking position." For that matter, can we dispense with the most of the text following footnote #12?
What, you'd have me strip out all the context? :( --maru (talk) contribs 02:43, 12 July 2006 (UTC)[reply]
I'm pretty sure that's right; but you are right about it being unnecessarily detailed.
  • Was the age of 38 middle-aged? Not Teika's middle age (he couldn't know how long he personally would live), but middle-aged generally.
I'd say so; Miner, Brower and Keene all use the term to describe Teika at that period AFAIK. --maru (talk) contribs 02:43, 12 July 2006 (UTC)[reply]
They may have meant that it was the middle of his life, as we know in hindsight. I really think the life expectancy was much shorter then, and 38 might have been well beyond the life expectancy (although courtiers probably lived longer than the average). Fg2 12:32, 12 July 2006 (UTC)[reply]
No, I don't think so; the context of their usages were a discussion of Suetsune and Michichika restricting the poetry sequences to "senior" poets, as in, not-middle-aged. --maru (talk) contribs 01:29, 13 July 2006 (UTC)[reply]
  • Links like "middle age," "father in law," "lamp" are low-value-added links. Consider removing them. Conversely, scour the article for terms that could be linked, especially things that many readers might find interesting.
Done. I think I've linked all that should be linked, but on the other hand, I'm always wary of nasty red links when I don't feel like fixing them, so... --maru (talk) contribs 02:43, 12 July 2006 (UTC)[reply]
  • Who is Yoshitsune? He appears by given name only, and only once.
He was a patron of Teika, one of the Kujo- wasn't that clear? Keene gives a number of interesting challenges Yoshitsune set Teika, but it seemed of limited interest to me, so I haven't really researched him. --maru (talk) contribs 02:43, 12 July 2006 (UTC)[reply]
Aha, the link to Kujo no Kanezane is backwards. Kujo is the family name, Kanezane the given name. When it's reversed it'll be clearer. Fg2 12:32, 12 July 2006 (UTC)[reply]
Yeah, I've noticed some problems like that... it gets especially hairy when you get past Teika and start talking about the Nijo, Reizei and Kyogoku- apparently those are simply nicknames based on their residences, and their "real" last names are all actually just "Fujiwara". Anyway, I've settled on Kujo no Kanezane- there are enough Fujiwaras in there. ~iametuni--maru (talk) contribs
  • The word "romaji" is English and should be written without a macron. Many Some words that are not English and should have macrons lack them.
I just looked in my English dictionary and did not find the word 'romaji'. I find ローマ字 in edict though. --zippedmartin 23:38, 11 July 2006 (UTC)[reply]
Merriam-Webster online says it's in their unabridged online version, but I don't have a subscription. OED (subscription necessary) has it. No macron in either. Fg2 12:32, 12 July 2006 (UTC)[reply]
  • Is there a need (e.g. so readers can understand a poem in the article) for the long aside on the Ikuta Shrine, or can we take it out?
  • Does the aside on Abutsu serve a function in the article, or can we take it out?
A purpose- I thought it was interesting. --maru (talk) contribs 02:43, 12 July 2006 (UTC)[reply]
  • Iametuni does not sound like a Japanese name, and it's not in Wikipedia romanization.
I got it from Steven D. Carter's translation of Shotetsu Monogatari. Unfortunately, I don't own a copy or have it handy. --maru (talk) contribs 02:43, 12 July 2006 (UTC)[reply]
Questionable. Probably a misprint or copied from an old source, perhaps in a European language. I'll bet it's Tametsune. Fg2 12:32, 12 July 2006 (UTC)[reply]
Well, that's possible certainly, but all the mentions of a Fujiwara Tametsune seem to be in the wrong time periods; [3]

[4] [5] for example. --maru (talk) contribs 18:29, 17 July 2006 (UTC)[reply]

  • The section "Poetic achievements" begins with the word "he"; if this refers to Teika, let's make it explicit since Teika hasn't been named in a while.
Done. --maru (talk) contribs 02:43, 12 July 2006 (UTC)[reply]
  • Shotetsu is linked, so there's no need for kanji or dates.
Done. --maru (talk) contribs 02:43, 12 July 2006 (UTC)[reply]
  • "Mono no Aware" has uppercase letters, but "sabi," "yugen," "makoto" don't. The capitals seem unnecessary.
Done. --maru (talk) contribs 02:43, 12 July 2006 (UTC)[reply]
  • These are individually minor points, but attention to them can enhance the solid content of the article. Fg2 11:30, 11 July 2006 (UTC)[reply]
  • Those are lots of improvements. I'm sorry I haven't offered anything insightful, but will try to give it another reading. Thanks for all the work. Fg2 12:37, 12 July 2006 (UTC)[reply]
Glad to have done it. Have to start somewhere, and establishing a firm base on Teika makes it a lot easier to branch out into other neglected or non-existent articles (look at the Imperial anthology articles, or Jakuren, or Shunzei, or his Daughter- most of'em would have been too difficult to write if I hadn't been collating and adding in all sorts of stuff into Teika's article). And y'know, your comments have helped a fair bit. --maru (talk) contribs 01:29, 13 July 2006 (UTC)[reply]
Here's a suggestion for the lead section.

Fujiwara no Teika (Japanese: 藤原定家), whose name is also read Fujiwara no Sadaie[1] (1162–September 26 1241), was a Japanese poet, critic, calligrapher, novelist, anthologist, scribe and scholar of the late Heian and early Kamakura periods. His influence was enormous, and he is counted among the greatest[2] of Japanese poets, and perhaps the greatest master of the waka, an ancient poetic form consisting of five lines with a total of 31 syllables. His critical ideas on composing poetry were extremely influential and studied until as late as the Meiji era.

A member of a poetic clan, Teika was born to the noted poet Fujiwara no Shunzei. After coming to the attention of the Retired Emperor Go-Toba (1180-1239; r. 1183-1198)[3], Teika began his long and distinguished career, spanning multiple areas of aesthetic endeavor. His relationship with Go-Toba, at first cordial, led to commissions to compile anthologies, but later resulted in banishment from the retired emperor's court.

Teika's works include his compilations of waka, the Ogura Hyakunin Isshu, Shin Chokusenshū, and and Shin Kokinshū. The latter included 46 of his poems. Teika also wrote the novel Tale of Matsura. His descendants and ideas would dominate classical Japanese poetry for centuries after his death.

Fg2 04:46, 13 July 2006 (UTC) and 05:33, 13 July 2006 (UTC)[reply]

Here's a suggestion for ===Birth===

Teika was born to a minor branch of the aristocratic and courtly Fujiwara clan in 1162. His branch sought prestige and power in the court by specializing in artistic endeavors, principally poetry. Such specialization could afford the opportunity to compete with more prestigious clans in aesthetic pursuits.

His father was the well-known and respected Fujiwara Shunzei, a poet and judge of poetry competitions who had compiled the seventh Imperial anthology of waka (the Senzaishū). Teika's grandfather was the venerable poet Fujiwara no Toshitada. His sister would also be a well-respected poet of waka and renga, known as Kengozen or Shunzei's Daughter, whom he would occasionally seek out for poetic advice[4] (his elder brother, Fujiwara no Nariie, would have some success in court, but not nearly as much as Teika[5]. Teika's foster-brother Sadanaga (who later became a priest and took the name Jakuren) would be successful as a poet although his career was cut tragically short.

Fg2 05:23, 13 July 2006 (UTC)[reply]

  1. ^ "...there is the further problem, the rendition of the name in romanized form. Teika probably referred to himself as Sadaie, and his father probably called himself Toshinari, but the Sino-Japanese versions of their names were used by their contemporaries, and this practice is still observed." pg 681-692, note 2 of Seeds in the Heart: Japanese Literature from Earliest Times to the Late Sixteenth Century, Donald Keene. 1999, Columbia University Press, ISBN 0-231-1141-9
  2. ^ "The single most influential figure in the history of Japanese classical poetry, Fujiwara Teika (or Sadaie) 1162-1241, was the supreme arbiter of poetry in his day, and for centuries after his death was held in religious veneration by waka and renga poets alike." Robert H. Brower. Monumenta Nipponica, Vol. 40, No. 4. (Winter, 1985), pp. 399-425. [1]).
    • Charles Murray, in his Human Accomplishment, ranks Teika as the 17th most influential figure in all of Japanese literature based on his analysis of academic research on Japanese literature. "Fujiwara no Teika....is one of the four greatest Japanese poets. The son of Shunzei, Teika lived to an advanced age constantly plagued by both recurring illness and reverses and advances in his family's fortunes. Similarly, his poetry and critical writings also underwent a series of changes in the course of his life, leaving behind the most substantial and intense poetic legacy by a single poet in Japanese history."[2]
    • "Teika's unique reputation rested in part upon his accomplishment as the leading figure among the many fine poets of the Shinkokin Jidai, the period of fifty-odd years in the late twelfth and early thirteenth centuries when revival and innovation in the native poetry were exemplified in Shinkokinshu, c. 1204, the eighth, and in many respects the greatest, of the imperially sponsored anthologies of classical verse. As one of the six compilers of the anthology, and with forty-six of his poems included in it, Teika stood at the forefront of the younger and more innovative poets of his day, and his various experiments with diction, rhetoric, and figurative language, as well as with new styles, modes, and aesthetic effects, were widely imitated by his contemporaries. After his death, his quarreling descendants were recognized as the ultimate authorities on all poetic matters, and through them Teika's influence pervaded six hundred years of Japanese poetic history." Extract from "Fujiwara Teika's Maigetsusho" by Robert H. Brower, Monumenta Nipponica, Vol. 40, No. 4. (Winter, 1985), pp. 399-425.
    • Donald Keene writes, "...is the diary of Fujiwara Teika (1162-1241), a man equally celebrated as poet, critic, and editor." pg 95 of Travelers of a Hundred Ages: The Japanese as Revealed Through 1,000 Years of Diaries, by Donald Keene, 1st edition. Published by Henry Holt and Company, 1989, ISBN 0-8050-1655-4
  3. ^ pg 7 of "Ex-Emperor Go-Toba's Secret Teachings: Go-Toba no in Gokuden", by Robert H. Brower in the Harvard Journal of Asiatic Studies, Vol. 32. (1972), pp. 5-70
  4. ^ pg 410, Travelers of a Hundred Ages: The Japanese as Revealed Through 1,000 Years of Diaries, by Donald Keene, 1st edition. Published by Henry Holt and Company, 1989, ISBN 0-8050-1655-4
  5. ^ pg 410, Travelers of a Hundred Ages: The Japanese as Revealed Through 1,000 Years of Diaries, by Donald Keene, 1st edition. Published by Henry Holt and Company, 1989, ISBN 0-8050-1655-4
I've merged some of your suggestions in. Take a look. --maru (talk) contribs 18:53, 17 July 2006 (UTC)[reply]
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