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Peter Warlock[edit]

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Peter Warlock, real name Philip Arthur Heseltine, was an eccentric English composer, one might say a flawed genius. He had no musical education to speak of, but by his early 20s he was writing captivating songs and choruses, and writing about music with real insight and scholarship. He became a leading authority on early music. All this against the background of a hedonistic lifestyle given over very largely to booze, girls and nude motor-cycling. He died at 36, "of drink and copulation/A sad discredit to the nation" according to his own epitaph. It's a pity he didn't live a little longer, to entertain us the more. I hope the article provides some insight into what made him tick. All comments welcome. Brianboulton (talk) 15:48, 5 October 2012 (UTC)[reply]

Yomangani's comments (scattergun style)

"These elements are reflected in his earliest compositions, from 1915." - it's not really clear which elements you mean here.
"probably about 22 (he was 19) but he appears to be years older ..." - did the female acquaintance add the aside about his age? If not, it is butchery. 'A female acquaintance at Christ Church described the 19-year-old Heseltine as "probably about 22 but he appears to be years older"' ?

Hardly "butchery"; the unnamed female's words are not a sacred text or inspired literature. But I have removed the offending parenthetical comment. Brianboulton (talk)

I'm given to hyperbole as every living person on the planet knows. Yomangani ^talk 22:58, 7 October 2012 (UTC)[reply]

Do you hate redlinks or is there nothing worth linking that doesn't already have an article?

I don't "hate" redlinks, but I question their widespread use, particularly for people or subjects where the chance of a WP article being created is approximately nil. In earlier days, redlinks were a key tool for expanding the nascent encyclopedia, but now, the necessity for them is rather less; furthermore, they tend to confuse general readers who see red blotches and wonder why. You will see that these days, redlinks rarely appear in featured articles. However, if you have something particularly in mind that you think ought to be redlinked, please indicate. Brianboulton (talk) 13:19, 7 October 2012 (UTC)[reply]

I don't agree with most of that of your arguments against redlinks, and that most FAs now exclude them is, for me, just one more failure of the FAC process. Anyway that argument is "off topic"; I didn't go trawling the article for potential redlinks but I did see that some of Delius's works were linked and others were not which was what prompted the query. Yomangani ^talk 22:58, 7 October 2012 (UTC)[reply]

Quite a poor photo of Christ Church, we have better. I'm not in love with the neon Abbey Theatre either.
" about 30 notices appeared above his initials " - that's obscure unless the reader knows how the newspapers of the time were composed
" a young Scottish composer with whom he set up home in a Battersea studio" - "set up home" carries undertones of a homosexual relationship. Is it supposed to?
"writing that Beecham's productions and choices of works were increasingly poor and lacking in artistic value; his own venture would not compromise by pandering to the tastes of the mob." - this has the look of a paraphrased quote that hasn't quite been shifted far enough from the source; the last clause makes a judgement on his actions when I think it should indicate his intentions.
" Rogers withdrew his financial backing after five issues before selling the magazine to the publisher John Curwen, who promptly replaced Heseltine as editor." - since Hesletine edited nine issues this could do with a bit of explanation. Either Heseltine managed to produce five issues with no backer or he wasn't "promptly replaced"
"The book, published by The Mandrake Press, was copiously illustrated by Hal Collins, who died of tuberculosis shortly afterwards" - somehow it sounds as if the death from TB is connected to the illustration work.
"Sewell's mother, unnamed, was a Roman Catholic lover" - an anonymous fan of Roman Catholics? This could be phrased better.
" Heseltine had provided his own intended epitaph..." - "intended" isn't needed here. Even if it hasn't been used anywhere else, it is used in this article.

It is rather strange that the lead introduces him primarily as Peter Warlock, a pseudonym that isn't given a great deal of weight in the rest of the article. Also we don't see much of the notoriety that he gained from his "unconventional and often scandalous lifestyle" - there are a few brief flashes of this but not a lot is made of them. It's an interesting read though - I'd heard of him but knew nothing about him. Yomangani ^talk 00:58, 6 October 2012 (UTC)[reply]

Thank you for your comments. Except as indicated above I have taken the specific queries on and adjusted the article accordingly. As to the two general points that you raise: I have added a footnote giving a little more information on the choice of pseudonym. It is under as "Warlock" that Heseltine has achieved lasting notability as a composer, and it seems right that the article should bear this name, in line with most music reference books which generally indicate "Hesesltine, Philip: See Warlock, Peter. As to the other matter, I have added a couple more salacious details, but I don't want to unbalance the article by overdoing the naughty stuff. Brianboulton (talk) 13:19, 7 October 2012 (UTC)[reply]

Comments by Gerda Arendt

[Childhood ...] Would Celtic culture deserve a link?

Difficult to find the best link, but I've found one that will probably do. Celtic culture goes to a dab page. Brianboulton (talk) 14:00, 7 October 2012 (UTC)[reply]

[Cologne ...] "By the summer of 1911, a year before he was due to leave the school, Heseltine had tired of life at Eton." - it's probably my English, but I would expect first "Heseltine", then "he", being told that the subject's name should be repeated in a new section ;)

What I have written is acceptable English, as indeed is your suggested version. Brianboulton (talk) 14:00, 7 October 2012 (UTC)[reply]

[Productive ...] "of normal married life" - why add "normal"?
[Eynsford] "... Barbara Peache, Heseltine's long-term girlfriend whom he had known since the early 1920s.[74] Although not formally trained, Collins was a ..." - Only when Collins is mentioned, I realise that I will not learn more about Peache. (Probably nothing more is known?)
[Death] I agree with Yomangani that "Roman Catholic lover" sounds overly formal, how about Catholic lover or Catholic lover?

Just a few comments to a very interesting piece on an interesting man. In editing a bit, I noticed that I prefer to have the references separated from the body, to ease editing of both. --Gerda Arendt (talk) 13:02, 6 October 2012 (UTC)[reply]

Thanks, Gerda. There is little known about Barbara Peache, though I have added a short physical description. I don't know what you mean by "I prefer to have the references separated from the body, to ease editing of both." Brianboulton (talk) 14:00, 7 October 2012 (UTC)[reply]

Trying to clarify:

I don't expect you to say more about Peache, but "Although not formally trained" seems to refer to her - until Collins is mentioned.

I try to keep references in a separate reflist (example BWV 76), because having them in the body of the article makes editing the text difficult, and editing a reference itself is even more difficult because it's hard to find a ref in the body. --Gerda Arendt (talk) 22:10, 8 October 2012 (UTC)[reply]

I'm afraid I'm none the wiser after that. Suggest we let it go. Brianboulton (talk) 23:04, 8 October 2012 (UTC)[reply]

(It's not about wisdom, not about this article, just ease of editing in general.) I let go ;) --Gerda Arendt (talk) 05:43, 9 October 2012 (UTC)[reply]

Comments by PumpkinSky

"with its hearty adolescent bawling of Victorian hymns in an all-male college chapel"...should have a ref with page number right after it
PumpkinSky talk 14:22, 6 October 2012 (UTC)[reply]

It's covered by ref [9] at the end of the next sentence, which is a continuance of the same topic. I see no point in having successive sentences with identical citations, nor is this normally done in similar circumstances. Brianboulton (talk) 14:00, 7 October 2012 (UTC)[reply]

Comments by Wehwalt

Lede

It is unclear whether the greater maturity of style spoken of derives from van Dieren or from the year in Ireland. The disconnect between a Dutch musician and the Irish idyll begs a bit more explanation.
" although for a time" This makes for a rather muddled and tentative timeline especially when "a time" seems to be at least five years. The juxtaposition of various dashes near the end of the sentence is also unpleasing. The two periods of activity in the 1920s should probably have a mention of what separates them, otherwise the two periods mean nothing to the reader coming at this with no knowledge (ahem).
" he wrote a full-length biography of Delius and also wrote" Perhaps "penned" for the first one?

Early life

"over the following years" This is far enough from the originating event that I suspect the best course is to cut entirely, it really doesn't clarify anything.
", which was held on 19 June" Unless there is special significance to the exact date, perhaps better to omit as slowing down the action.
"and operas, and he maintained his correspondence with Delius" Consider a semicolon and striking the "and"
After the buildup of the Beecham quote, can what happens next be presented a bit more dramatically, perhaps as a break from his former life? The quote tells us that an immature and unstable kid had been told to follow his heart, come what may; well, what you have coming next seems rather mundane. Perhaps include his mother's reaction.

I have reorganised this paragraph to give a more straightforward chronological narrative. Despite Delius's "follow your heart" advice he at least initially followed his mum's heart, and only broke away later.

Unsettled years

" editing Elizabethan music" In what sense?

Preparing old music in modern notation to enable contemporary performances.

It may be worth a mention of how Nigel accounts for his existence, then, or at least for the coincidence of name.

I had this a little bit muddled (too namy sources juggled) but I think it is clear now.

"Letters indicated ..." this should be divided into at least two sentences.
"participating to Dublin's cultural life" participating in?
" By this time, Heseltine's private opinion of Delius's music was increasingly critical," So only in his own mind was this opinion, or was it to trusted friends?

Productive years

"returned to Cefn-bryntalch" We have not been here in some time, have we? And when we last left his mother, I had the impression that he was pushing aside that life. Perhaps a bit of exposition here?

Can't say much more. He was broke, went back to mum's for a while. It had been his regular home until 1913 at least, so we're only eight years on.

How was he making a living in these years? You had him with no regular income. I imagine he inherited property from his father at 21 or some such?

It's not explicit in the biographies, but I imagine he was paid for his articles and received royalties on the sales of his published songs. Mum may have given him an allowance, too. There is no mention anywhere of his receiving money from his father's estate.

Critical appraisal

"his profile became less sharp" I'm not clear on what you meant by this.
Consider adding the Peter Warlock Society as an EL.

Stuff from the PWS website is cited as a source, so it can't be an EL.

Nicely done as usual. Our coverage of early 20th century English music is becoming as complete as our coverage of coins.--Wehwalt (talk) 02:14, 8 October 2012 (UTC)[reply]

Thank you for your review, with some very useful suggestions. Other than when I have commented, you may assume I have adopted your suggestion or something close to it. Of early 20th century English composers, it may seem like a lot more, but there are currently just four which have made it to FA – and that's counting Percy Grainger who was an Australian. The others are Delius, Elgar and Walton. So coins are ahead by several lengths at present. Brianboulton (talk) 16:14, 8 October 2012 (UTC)[reply]

Cassianto's last minute quibble's

A very interesting read and one I thoroughly enjoyed looking over. A few small points:

Cologne, Oxford and London

We call it The Daily Mail in the last line of the "Cologne, Oxford and London" section, but the Daily Mail in the opening of the "Music critic" section.

New friends and acquaintances

Should motor-cycle have a hyphen?

Eynsford

"By the summer of 1928, despite his industry his general lifestyle had created severe financial problems." -- is there a missing comma there? It seems a bit muddled to read.

Death

"In September 1930 Heseltine moved with Barbara Peache into a basement flat at 12a Tite Street." -- Not saying London or Chelsea caused me to use the wiki-link to check for its whereabouts, thus clicking off the article to find out.

References

13 - seems to have a stray bracket after "Arnold"
81 - missing year

That's all I can spot. Congratulations on a fine article. -- Cassianto ^Talk 21:50, 14 October 2012 (UTC)[reply]

Thank you. I have made these small fixes - it is surprising what can be overlooked after much inspection! Brianboulton (talk) 23:08, 14 October 2012 (UTC)[reply]