Wikipedia:Reference desk/Archives/Entertainment/2009 August 4
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August 4[edit]
Why are roman numerals used?[edit]
Why is it, that the year a movie or TV-show is made, is often written with roman numerals? -Ulla — 10:19, 4 August 2009 (UTC)
- I used to hear that the reason was to make it difficult to instantly tell how old the film was. For example, you'd have to quickly recognize that "MCMLVIII" means "1958". It's a little easier once we reached year 2000 (or MM). Baseball Bugs What's up, Doc? carrots 10:45, 4 August 2009 (UTC)
- That makes sense; I'd wondered about that myself. Another thought is, if it was done from the very early days, they wanted to demonstrate they were not just for the uneducated masses. As if to say, "Hey, movies can be classy and sophisticated, why we even use *Roman*numberals* to signal the years.!" Of course, Latin was still taught in high school in some areas then (My grandmother took it), but not everyone even went that far in school in the early 1900s. (Hmmm, the oldest movie I have is a laurel and Hardy or Three Stooges from the early 1940s, I'll have to see if they used them then.)Somebody or his brother (talk) 11:20, 4 August 2009 (UTC)
- This seems like a great question for Cecil Adams but I can't find anything like it at his site... Dismas|(talk) 14:17, 4 August 2009 (UTC)
- That makes sense; I'd wondered about that myself. Another thought is, if it was done from the very early days, they wanted to demonstrate they were not just for the uneducated masses. As if to say, "Hey, movies can be classy and sophisticated, why we even use *Roman*numberals* to signal the years.!" Of course, Latin was still taught in high school in some areas then (My grandmother took it), but not everyone even went that far in school in the early 1900s. (Hmmm, the oldest movie I have is a laurel and Hardy or Three Stooges from the early 1940s, I'll have to see if they used them then.)Somebody or his brother (talk) 11:20, 4 August 2009 (UTC)
- The date is required by copyright law. Printing the year in Roman numerals just looks classy to some people - and film producers tend to be the kind of people who are impressed by Roman numerals. The theory that they are trying to hide the year of production has no basis in fact. It is an assumption made by people who never learned to read Roman numerals. -- kainaw™ 15:21, 4 August 2009 (UTC)
- I'm not convinced. Typically on TV shows the date would flash by in a split-second, too little time for the average viewer to take it in. The trick, of course, is to look at just the right hand portion of the number - and then try to remember it. But if it says "1958", it will register instantly. Baseball Bugs What's up, Doc? carrots 15:40, 4 August 2009 (UTC)
- You appear to be under the assumption that the copyright date is there for the average television/movie viewer. It is not. It is for copyright infringement cases. As such, it only needs to appear on a single frame of the movie - just a fraction of a second. Often, it is added to the end of the closing credits and lasts longer than a single frame. There is no need (or intention) for the average viewer to see the date, comprehend the date, or discuss the date with friends and family after the show is over. -- kainaw™ 15:43, 4 August 2009 (UTC)
- It is rather condescending to tell the average viewer what there is "no need" for them to do. It's also worth pointing out that some films and TV shows have used standard numerals. Superman used both. It varied depending on the year. You might be right about your facts. If you can find a citation for it, that would be very useful. Baseball Bugs What's up, Doc? carrots 15:57, 4 August 2009 (UTC)
- You appear to be under the assumption that the copyright date is there for the average television/movie viewer. It is not. It is for copyright infringement cases. As such, it only needs to appear on a single frame of the movie - just a fraction of a second. Often, it is added to the end of the closing credits and lasts longer than a single frame. There is no need (or intention) for the average viewer to see the date, comprehend the date, or discuss the date with friends and family after the show is over. -- kainaw™ 15:43, 4 August 2009 (UTC)
- I'm not convinced. Typically on TV shows the date would flash by in a split-second, too little time for the average viewer to take it in. The trick, of course, is to look at just the right hand portion of the number - and then try to remember it. But if it says "1958", it will register instantly. Baseball Bugs What's up, Doc? carrots 15:40, 4 August 2009 (UTC)
- It is usually impossible to find a citation that something does not exist. I stated that the need for the average viewer to know the copyright date of a film does not exist. I have no intention of wasting my life trying to find a citation that it does not exist. It would be easier if you were to find a citation that there is a need for the average viewer to know the copyright date of a film. As for using regular numbers, it does happen. I stated earlier that some people think Roman numerals are classy. They are not required. The people that put them on the film simply prefer them. It is a matter of opinion. -- kainaw™ 16:28, 4 August 2009 (UTC)
- I agree with Kainaw: the date is there mainly for copyright reasons, so no one's sitting around thinking "lets make this really hard/easy for Joe Bloggs to figure out". Roman numerals are merely conventional. They are not required, this is not a conspiracy, or because people want to look flash and clever, just a few people following tradition. It used to be common/normal for books to display copyright dates in such a manner, also, just as people would talk about the XVI Olympiad. Roman numerals are perhaps less commonly used nowadays, but are not archaic. Rugby union teams use them (eg. "First XV"; "Pesident's XV"), and we still talk about Henry VIII and Pope John Paul II. See also Roman_numerals#Modern_usage Gwinva (talk) 22:35, 4 August 2009 (UTC)
- Obviously the roman numerals have become a tradition, but the more interesting question is why they were used originally. I would love Baseball Bugs's rationale, because who wants to watch a movie that is not brand new? Except that in the early days I suspect people wouldn't have cared like they do today. (I have assumed comic books don't print the date on the cover for the same reason.) I also dispute kainaw's assertion that the copyright date only had to be on the film for technical reasons and for 1 frame, and must also challenge him to cite a source that this ever worked. In front of any judge, a violator back in the day (when copyright notices were required) could construct a great argument that since there was no visible copyright mark, there was hence no copyright mark in the legal sense. Tempshill (talk) 22:46, 4 August 2009 (UTC)
- Whether I'm right or Kainaw is right or we're both partly right or both fully wrong, I would just like to see a citation somewhere. Baseball Bugs What's up, Doc? carrots 23:22, 4 August 2009 (UTC)
- Isn't that the whole point of this page? I though it was a reference desk, rather than an opinion desk, but it seems I'm in the minority these days. Malcolm XIV (talk) 23:29, 4 August 2009 (UTC)
- Baseball Bugs, if you're so keen on a citation to prove your opinion, perhaps you could look for one? A scholarly one, not an "it's believed that" or "I've heard", which do abound on the internet. You might, however, enjoy Marjorie Garber's analysis of Roman numerals in her book Symptoms of Culture, which roots the tradition of displaying publication dates in Roman numerals back to 18th century volumes of Shakespeare (along with chapter, act scene numbering) a practice which continued until driven out by computers. (Tempshill: this ties in with what I said earlier: the practice began with books (became a tradition) then was translated into film.) Of course, buildings, architecture and monuments had displayed dates this way earlier. Garber also notes that Hollywood likes the monumental nature: the "architectural cornerstone, another sign of grandeur...Roman numeral means greatness, historicity, cultural endurance, authority...] See google books. The idea that Roman numerals "hid" the true date is silly: when the practice started, it would have expected/assumed that anyone literate could read Roman numerals. They still should be able to. Gwinva (talk) 23:47, 4 August 2009 (UTC)
- You're claiming it has something to do with copyright protection. You might be right. But you haven't proven it yet. Baseball Bugs What's up, Doc? carrots 05:25, 5 August 2009 (UTC)
- Proof? Have you actually looked at the year at the end of shows and movies? It isn't just a string of Roman numerals. It is a copyright statement. It says something like "Copyright XXVI Warner Brothers Television. All Rights Reserved." How can you claim it has nothing to do with copyright when the year is always preceded with either the word "copyright" or the © symbol? -- kainaw™ 13:37, 5 August 2009 (UTC)
- ok kings that's enough. Yes copyright requires a date, and the date and circle c are usually next to each other. But it's not a necessity, and I think I've seen title end frames where the copyright message and date are on the same screen but not the place. The date happily serves two purposes.83.100.250.79 (talk) 16:25, 5 August 2009 (UTC)
- The ABC traditionally tagged their programs with Roman numerals, for no better reason than that's what the BBC always did. But why the BBC did it to begin with, is anyone's guess. In 1983, the Minister for Communications, Michael Duffy, advised parliament that the ABC would join the 20th century and start using Arabic numerals from then on. They did so for a while, then I noticed they started to slip back. I haven't been closely monitoring programs in recent years to say what they usually do these days. -- JackofOz (talk) 21:50, 5 August 2009 (UTC)
- ok kings that's enough. Yes copyright requires a date, and the date and circle c are usually next to each other. But it's not a necessity, and I think I've seen title end frames where the copyright message and date are on the same screen but not the place. The date happily serves two purposes.83.100.250.79 (talk) 16:25, 5 August 2009 (UTC)
- Proof? Have you actually looked at the year at the end of shows and movies? It isn't just a string of Roman numerals. It is a copyright statement. It says something like "Copyright XXVI Warner Brothers Television. All Rights Reserved." How can you claim it has nothing to do with copyright when the year is always preceded with either the word "copyright" or the © symbol? -- kainaw™ 13:37, 5 August 2009 (UTC)
- You're claiming it has something to do with copyright protection. You might be right. But you haven't proven it yet. Baseball Bugs What's up, Doc? carrots 05:25, 5 August 2009 (UTC)
- Baseball Bugs, if you're so keen on a citation to prove your opinion, perhaps you could look for one? A scholarly one, not an "it's believed that" or "I've heard", which do abound on the internet. You might, however, enjoy Marjorie Garber's analysis of Roman numerals in her book Symptoms of Culture, which roots the tradition of displaying publication dates in Roman numerals back to 18th century volumes of Shakespeare (along with chapter, act scene numbering) a practice which continued until driven out by computers. (Tempshill: this ties in with what I said earlier: the practice began with books (became a tradition) then was translated into film.) Of course, buildings, architecture and monuments had displayed dates this way earlier. Garber also notes that Hollywood likes the monumental nature: the "architectural cornerstone, another sign of grandeur...Roman numeral means greatness, historicity, cultural endurance, authority...] See google books. The idea that Roman numerals "hid" the true date is silly: when the practice started, it would have expected/assumed that anyone literate could read Roman numerals. They still should be able to. Gwinva (talk) 23:47, 4 August 2009 (UTC)
- Isn't that the whole point of this page? I though it was a reference desk, rather than an opinion desk, but it seems I'm in the minority these days. Malcolm XIV (talk) 23:29, 4 August 2009 (UTC)
- Whether I'm right or Kainaw is right or we're both partly right or both fully wrong, I would just like to see a citation somewhere. Baseball Bugs What's up, Doc? carrots 23:22, 4 August 2009 (UTC)
- Obviously the roman numerals have become a tradition, but the more interesting question is why they were used originally. I would love Baseball Bugs's rationale, because who wants to watch a movie that is not brand new? Except that in the early days I suspect people wouldn't have cared like they do today. (I have assumed comic books don't print the date on the cover for the same reason.) I also dispute kainaw's assertion that the copyright date only had to be on the film for technical reasons and for 1 frame, and must also challenge him to cite a source that this ever worked. In front of any judge, a violator back in the day (when copyright notices were required) could construct a great argument that since there was no visible copyright mark, there was hence no copyright mark in the legal sense. Tempshill (talk) 22:46, 4 August 2009 (UTC)
- I agree with Kainaw: the date is there mainly for copyright reasons, so no one's sitting around thinking "lets make this really hard/easy for Joe Bloggs to figure out". Roman numerals are merely conventional. They are not required, this is not a conspiracy, or because people want to look flash and clever, just a few people following tradition. It used to be common/normal for books to display copyright dates in such a manner, also, just as people would talk about the XVI Olympiad. Roman numerals are perhaps less commonly used nowadays, but are not archaic. Rugby union teams use them (eg. "First XV"; "Pesident's XV"), and we still talk about Henry VIII and Pope John Paul II. See also Roman_numerals#Modern_usage Gwinva (talk) 22:35, 4 August 2009 (UTC)
- It is usually impossible to find a citation that something does not exist. I stated that the need for the average viewer to know the copyright date of a film does not exist. I have no intention of wasting my life trying to find a citation that it does not exist. It would be easier if you were to find a citation that there is a need for the average viewer to know the copyright date of a film. As for using regular numbers, it does happen. I stated earlier that some people think Roman numerals are classy. They are not required. The people that put them on the film simply prefer them. It is a matter of opinion. -- kainaw™ 16:28, 4 August 2009 (UTC)
- Re: the first answer by Baseball Bugs: I thought it was the opposite reason. For example on a grainy film or TV, it might be harder to distinguish between, say "1950" and "1956", than "MCMLXX" and "MCMLXXVI"68.179.108.25 (talk) 16:14, 8 August 2009 (UTC)
- According to this book, they're used in place of modern numerals because they "look classy".
Roman numerals used to be used in books, and long before that, they were used on the cornerstones of 'better' buildings. (I think they're still used for the Superbowl?)
Twang (talk) 08:36, 11 August 2009 (UTC)
what does it mean?[edit]
i want to know what the term "A new beat needs a new rest" mean!! it's a profession term in music so see if anyone can help me!! thax —Preceding unsigned comment added by Vincecarter159753 (talk • contribs) 16:42, 4 August 2009 (UTC)
- It means you shouldn't notate rests as tied or continued over beats. So, for example, in 4/4, if your bar starts with a dotted quarter note, then a full beat of rest, then another dotted quarter note, you're expected to notate the rest as two eighth rests, rather than a single quarter rest. --jpgordon::==( o ) 20:54, 4 August 2009 (UTC)
Music Samples[edit]
I am sure that this has been asked millions of times and it is staring me straight in the face but:
I wish to add short samples to the Mozart Piano Concerto pages - 1, 2, 3 and 4 especially. Could someone please tell me the longest sample leght that can be added without infringing copyright and where I might upload it? A simple link answering the quastion - I am sure there is something in wiki somewhere - would be great please :) Lotus Blossom (ak the 7th) (talk) 18:51, 4 August 2009 (UTC)
- See Wikipedia:Music samples and the general page dealing with non-free content, Wikipedia:Non-free content. Deor (talk) 20:50, 4 August 2009 (UTC)
- Thank you. —Preceding unsigned comment added by Lotus Blossom (ak the 7th) (talk • contribs) 20:51, 4 August 2009 (UTC)
Foreign Language Cover Versions[edit]
I love foreign language cover versions. That is, cover versions of a popular song originally in English, but translated and sung in a different language. However, I find them very hard to find. Can anyone recommend any foreign language cover versions, or direct me to some kind of foreign language cover version resource? Thank you very much Score Deal Gun (talk) 19:45, 4 August 2009 (UTC)
Abba released a whole album in Spanish! Its always fun to sing along to those songs. You should be able to get the album easily —Preceding unsigned comment added by Payneham (talk • contribs) 05:26, 5 August 2009 (UTC)
Marie LaForet did a great French cover of 'Paint it Black' by The Rolling Stones.Popcorn II (talk) 08:12, 5 August 2009 (UTC)
- This is likely pointless to point out as you're probably already aware of them but there is The Beatles German version of their own "I Want to Hold Your Hand" and Nena's "99 Luftballons". Dismas|(talk) 08:25, 5 August 2009 (UTC)
I've got a 7inch of a 1979 version of YMCA (by Village People )covered by a band from Hong Kong called Lam, which is all sung in Chinese(?).But I can't find anything about it online. Popcorn II (talk) 15:26, 5 August 2009 (UTC)
- Here are a few more examples, in French. Joe Dassin was well-known for making French versions of US hits, some of which translated the lyrics, and others used entirely different French lyrics (for example, "City of New Orleans" became the completely unrelated "Salut les amoureux!"). In the same vein, Johnny Halliday had a big hit turning "The House of the Rising Sun" into the equally-unrelated "Les portes du pénitencier". There was actually a whole industry of re-recording 1960s pop hits by local bands in French shortly after they came out, but the practice died down in the early 1970s. Among many such bands were "Les Sultans", "Les Classels" and "César et ses Romains" in Quebec, and "Les Chaussettes Noires" and "Les Chats sauvages" in France. A few English-speaking singers of the period re-recorded their hits in French, notably Petula Clark and Roger Whitaker. More recently, the Canadian band Big Sugar put out a French-language version of their 2001 cd "Brothers and Sisters, Are You Ready?", called (amusingly) "Brothers and Sisters, Êtes Vous Ready?" --Xuxl (talk) 18:33, 5 August 2009 (UTC)
- For reasons obscure to me, Fairport Convention translated a Dylan song into French as Si tu dois partir. Algebraist 18:36, 5 August 2009 (UTC)
- One of my favorite funny people is April Winchell who has this collection (scroll down a bit) of foreign-language covers on her site. Enjoy! ReverendWayne (talk) 19:39, 5 August 2009 (UTC)
- There's Brazil's Ultraje a Rigor's nice (in my view) cover of I Can't Explain--they call it "Eu Não Sei" (I Don't Know)--here, Carole Laure's "Danse Avant de Tomber" ("Save the Last Dance for Me") here, and IPPU-DO's "Cosmic Cycle" which I think includes Time of the Season here. I believe David Lee Roth did a Spanish version of Going Crazy from the Heat. While it's not mentioned in the article about the ep Crazy from the Heat, I'm sure I heard it on Q107 +20 years ago.
- One of my favorite funny people is April Winchell who has this collection (scroll down a bit) of foreign-language covers on her site. Enjoy! ReverendWayne (talk) 19:39, 5 August 2009 (UTC)
- For reasons obscure to me, Fairport Convention translated a Dylan song into French as Si tu dois partir. Algebraist 18:36, 5 August 2009 (UTC)
- Oops! Sorry about not signing the above edit. I'm listening to Ippu-do's video as I do THIS edit, and it's in English, but it's sufficiently weird enough to possibly constitute foreign. :-D
Also searching the article on Ippu-do lead to a weird re-direct.68.179.108.25 (talk) 16:56, 8 August 2009 (UTC)
- Oops! Sorry about not signing the above edit. I'm listening to Ippu-do's video as I do THIS edit, and it's in English, but it's sufficiently weird enough to possibly constitute foreign. :-D
- Here's another I heard last Saturday Gilles Brown "C'est toi que j'aime" or "Only the lonely"--though I understand that the translation of the title is much different from the original.68.179.108.25 (talk) 22:36, 10 August 2009 (UTC)