Wikipedia:Reference desk/Archives/Entertainment/2018 July 4
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July 4[edit]
"Penny Lane" lyric[edit]
In the second line of "Penny Lane", does Paul sing "of every head he's had the pleasure to know" or "of every head he's had the pleasure to have known"? Different lyrics sites have different views on the matter, see [1] and [2]. Listening to the song itself is inconclusive [3]. Thanks, --Viennese Waltz 07:50, 4 July 2018 (UTC)
- It's "to know". Here's a visual, about 2:30 in.[4] And note that "know" rhymes with "go" and "hello". ←Baseball Bugs What's up, Doc? carrots→ 13:31, 4 July 2018 (UTC)
- Well, OK, but just because he sings "to know" in that recent TV show doesn't necessarily mean he sings it in the original version, which is what I'm asking about. --Viennese Waltz 13:34, 4 July 2018 (UTC)
- He appears to know the words to his own songs, and as I implied, "known" doesn't rhyme with "go" and "hello". ←Baseball Bugs What's up, Doc? carrots→ 13:37, 4 July 2018 (UTC)
- Documentation: Last year there was an expanded re-release of the Sgt. Pepper album. It included Penny Lane and Strawberry Fields, which were part of the Sgt. Pepper sessions but were initially released separately. The words to those songs are included, and it says "to know". ←Baseball Bugs What's up, Doc? carrots→ 13:45, 4 July 2018 (UTC)
- He appears to know the words to his own songs, and as I implied, "known" doesn't rhyme with "go" and "hello". ←Baseball Bugs What's up, Doc? carrots→ 13:37, 4 July 2018 (UTC)
- Well, OK, but just because he sings "to know" in that recent TV show doesn't necessarily mean he sings it in the original version, which is what I'm asking about. --Viennese Waltz 13:34, 4 July 2018 (UTC)
- "he's had the pleasure to have known" sounds like some (presumably well-meaning) person's attempt to "improve/correct" Lennon's lyric, but it sounds nothing like anything that any mid-late 20th-century songwriter would ever write, unless forced to in order to fit a rhyme, but that's not the case here. -- Jack of Oz [pleasantries] 21:57, 4 July 2018 (UTC)
- Why do you say "Lennon's lyric"? The song was written by McCartney. In general with Lennon and McCartney (although there are exceptions), the one who sings it is the one who wrote it. --Viennese Waltz 07:35, 5 July 2018 (UTC)
- Why? Oh, I think ignorance + not being arsed enough to check + assumption would cover it. Thanks for the correction. -- Jack of Oz [pleasantries] 19:37, 5 July 2018 (UTC)
- Why do you say "Lennon's lyric"? The song was written by McCartney. In general with Lennon and McCartney (although there are exceptions), the one who sings it is the one who wrote it. --Viennese Waltz 07:35, 5 July 2018 (UTC)
- Given how often I've heard "I would have liked to have done that," I disagree with Jack's assessment of implausibility. (You would have stopped enjoying the memory by now?) But it is to know. —Tamfang (talk) 06:11, 5 July 2018 (UTC)
- Viennese Waltz, here is a photo of the 1967 handwritten manuscript for Penny Lane (click to enlarge) - it's definitely "know". Alansplodge (talk) 19:40, 5 July 2018 (UTC)
- Given how often I've heard "I would have liked to have done that," I disagree with Jack's assessment of implausibility. (You would have stopped enjoying the memory by now?) But it is to know. —Tamfang (talk) 06:11, 5 July 2018 (UTC)
Coll's Olympic goal[edit]
I've just seen the only Olympic goal in history of World Cups and, dare I say, it's slightly underwhelming -- misjudged mishit. Who was the defender on the near post? Is it just my imagination or was he kicked by Yashin and then limped for a bit, only to succumb to the pain and ultimately prostrate? 31.217.24.65 (talk) 23:23, 4 July 2018 (UTC)
- What? Olympics? World Cups? What event and what sport are we talking about? One where its fans never think of anything else, and therefore don't comprehend that readers may have other thoughts and have no idea what he's talking about? HiLo48 (talk) 23:28, 4 July 2018 (UTC)
- Okay at a guess this is about Lev Yashin and Association football at the 1956 Summer Olympics. There is some info here Lev Yashin#International career but there isn't really ananswer to the IPs question. There is aso a Alexei Yashin who played hockey and the terminology between the two sports is close enough that the question could be about either of them. I lean toward the first one since the football World Cup is being played at the moment. Hopefully the IP will give us a bit more detail about their question. MarnetteD|Talk 01:13, 5 July 2018 (UTC)
- It seems this has nothing to do with the 1956 (or any other) Olympic Games, but rather a Group 1 game in the 1962 FIFA World Cup between Colombia and the USSR, in which Marcos Coll scored a goal directly from a corner kick past USSR goalkeeper Lev Yashin. Apparently such a feat is known as an Olympic goal in South America, for reasons explained in the article (Corner kick) that the term redirects to. (Yer learn summat new every day!) Reportedly (see his article), Coll claimed it was deliberate. {The poster formerly known as 87.81.230.195} 2.122.2.31 (talk) 04:43, 5 July 2018 (UTC)
"IN HISTORY OF WORLD CUPS" is stated quite clearly. Happened in 1962 Chile WC (that's World Cup for yous). So who got kicked in frustration then? 93.140.123.232 (talk) 16:41, 5 July 2018 (UTC)
- That I don't know. There is a FIFA World Cup DVD collection 1930 - 2006 that was given away free by the Daily Telegraph a few years ago, but unfortunately I don't have the disc that contains 1962 and 1966. Perhaps another editor has, and can check it. {The poster formerly known as 87.81.230.195} 90.220.213.151 (talk) 17:13, 5 July 2018 (UTC)
- He doesn't get kicked. Yashin only punches him on the arm. He prostrates himself not because he's in pain, but out of the frustration to have majorly contributed to that stupid goal that would have easily been caught by Yashin if he'd only been allowed to do his job properly, as not only does he not allow Yashin to properly see the ball, when the ball arrives he gets out of the way, completely misjudging its trajectory and/or where Yashin is, instead of trying to stop it. I've rarely seen such incompetent defending. Only people playing for the other team would normally do what that idiot did. I can't see the number on his jersey. But with hard work you may be able to match his face with the face of one of the players whose number you can see at other points in the game. You could also look for news reports.
but I don't think this would have been reported because this is a mere detail.(On the contrary, the name of the player responsible for the goal is likely to be mentioned in detailed newspaper reports of the game) Basemetal 17:07, 5 July 2018 (UTC)- Very glad you noticed that. Whoever contributes to Yashin conceding 4 is a nemesis, and this ineptitude kick-started it all. 93.140.169.81 (talk) 16:32, 7 July 2018 (UTC)
- Doesn't the Spanish-language commentary say something? My Spanish is too poor for me to know. By the way, here's the match report including the Soviet lineup. --Theurgist (talk) 20:56, 5 July 2018 (UTC)
- That report is only the goals and the lineups. Doesn't anyone have access to newspapers of that time with serious soccer reporting? Basemetal 22:27, 5 July 2018 (UTC)
- You shouldn't be calling him an idiot, even though it was a terrible mistake to commit. 31.217.3.30 (talk) 00:08, 6 July 2018 (UTC)
- That report is only the goals and the lineups. Doesn't anyone have access to newspapers of that time with serious soccer reporting? Basemetal 22:27, 5 July 2018 (UTC)
- There is a better quality 9+ minute video on Daily Motion by someone who I think is Russian for the 1962 (03.06) Colombia - USSR - 4-4 World Cup match. I won't link to it directly for WP:Copyvio reasons but it shouldn't be hard to find. The person even created one of those Youtube videos trying to get you to visit their DailyMotion copy. If you look at the real end, there is a better quality and slow-mo version of the final goal. It looks to me like the defender is number 6 who according to the FIFA match report was Leonid Ostrovski Nil Einne (talk) 13:30, 9 July 2018 (UTC)
- @Nil Einne: See the video titled "WC 1962 USSR vs. Colombia 4-4 (03.06.1962) (re-upload)". Its quality is better than most others. The number can't be 6, because number 6 is clearly seen on the back of another Soviet player at the very same moment. It looks like a 5 to me, which would mean the player is Givi Chokheli. The number is hard to see not because of the quality of the video, but because it's visible only for a split second, and even then a Colombian player partly obstructs it. There's also the Russian commentary, but it doesn't seem to be of much help. --Theurgist (talk) 22:58, 10 July 2018 (UTC)
- @Theurgist: That video seems to be very similar quality to the one uploaded by the Russian user albeit shorted. I don't see another player with number 6. I do see another player with number 5. BTW, most of the time the number is visible the player is not obstructed. Nil Einne (talk) 02:46, 11 July 2018 (UTC)
- See these images [5] [6] [7] [8] [9] [10] [11] [12] [13] [14]. It seems to me that the player to the left who is not very close to the ball is 5. The player to the right who is trying to defend, runs ahead of the ball but then fails to stop it is 6. I'm not sure who the player to the far right is, it seems difficult to make out although I didn't look that hard since it didn't seem that important. Nil Einne (talk)
- Actually looking more carefully, I think you're right about the video you referred to being better quality. The video I referred to is decent quality but seems to have more motion artifacts I think. Still even with the video I referred to, IMO it still looks to me like the player who starts to the left is 5 and the player who starts to the right and later prostrates himself is 6 [15] [16] [17] [18] [19] Nil Einne (talk) 03:22, 11 July 2018 (UTC)
- As mentioned, I don't see the number is ever really blocked. I wonder if we are referring to different things. I was referring to Columbia's goal 4 as I believe this was what was referred to above as someone mentioned goal 4 (or maybe it was just a total of 4 goals it isn't totally clear) and someone else mentioned a player prostrating himself. The other goal under discussion is the Olympic goal, goal 2. Looking more carefully at this goal, it seems that a defender did also screw up here. However this defender only bends over and hits the ground, he doesn't ever seem to be lying on the ground or prostrating himself. But reading the rest of the description more carefully it seems to fit the Olympic goal more accurately so I'm not sure now which goal is being referred to. I had a briefly look at goal 3 and no one seemed to prostrate themselves that I noticed. Nor for that matter goal 1, although there is a camera operator who had already done so. Nil Einne (talk) 03:36, 11 July 2018 (UTC)
- I do agree the player away from the ball during the Olympic goal is player 6, and the player who misses the ball and later bends down and hits the ground with his fists or hands but doesn't seem to prostrate himself seems to be player 5 [20] [21] [22] [23] [24] [25] [26] [27] [28] [29] Nil Einne (talk) 03:56, 11 July 2018 (UTC)
- I probably should mention that the primary reason I assumed it was goal 4 was because if it was the Olympic goal I'm not sure why we're spending so much time analysing videos nor looking for contemporary reports. Since this is the goal that everyone knows the game for, and to some extent one of the events that is fairly notable about Marcus Coll's career, it's widely mentioned in recent sources. E.g. I'm fairly sure I came across this the other day before my first response [30]
and thought is was relevant until I reassessed and decided the above discussion can't have been about the Olympic goal since there was no prostrating etc. Then there is [31]with the defender Givi Chokheli almost ushering the ball over the line. Chokheli explained that he had mishead Yashin's shout of 'Igray!' ("Play!") as 'Igrayu!' ('I play!'), but that did little to calm the goalkeeper, who have him a firm slap on the backside.
which I don't recall noticing but I can find without using the defender's name. Of course guessing the name and testing would also likely work, e.g. you can find [32] "Marcos Coll swung in a poorly hit corner, but, inexplicably, both defender Chokeli and Yashin left the ball and it trickled in
Alsoowes much to the defending of Russian Givi Chokheli who let the ball past him at the near post in a group stage match in 1962
which seems to translate to something likeMarcos Coll cobró un saque de esquina, con pierna derecha y pasa frente al defensor ruso Givi Chokheli y toma por sorpresa al estelar arquero Lev Yashin
And a whole lot more Spanish sources besides. Nil Einne (talk) 04:28, 11 July 2018 (UTC)Marcos Coll took a corner kick, with right leg and passes in front of the Russian defender Givi Chokheli and takes by surprise the stellar goalkeeper Lev Yashin
- I probably should mention that the primary reason I assumed it was goal 4 was because if it was the Olympic goal I'm not sure why we're spending so much time analysing videos nor looking for contemporary reports. Since this is the goal that everyone knows the game for, and to some extent one of the events that is fairly notable about Marcus Coll's career, it's widely mentioned in recent sources. E.g. I'm fairly sure I came across this the other day before my first response [30]
- I do agree the player away from the ball during the Olympic goal is player 6, and the player who misses the ball and later bends down and hits the ground with his fists or hands but doesn't seem to prostrate himself seems to be player 5 [20] [21] [22] [23] [24] [25] [26] [27] [28] [29] Nil Einne (talk) 03:56, 11 July 2018 (UTC)
- As mentioned, I don't see the number is ever really blocked. I wonder if we are referring to different things. I was referring to Columbia's goal 4 as I believe this was what was referred to above as someone mentioned goal 4 (or maybe it was just a total of 4 goals it isn't totally clear) and someone else mentioned a player prostrating himself. The other goal under discussion is the Olympic goal, goal 2. Looking more carefully at this goal, it seems that a defender did also screw up here. However this defender only bends over and hits the ground, he doesn't ever seem to be lying on the ground or prostrating himself. But reading the rest of the description more carefully it seems to fit the Olympic goal more accurately so I'm not sure now which goal is being referred to. I had a briefly look at goal 3 and no one seemed to prostrate themselves that I noticed. Nor for that matter goal 1, although there is a camera operator who had already done so. Nil Einne (talk) 03:36, 11 July 2018 (UTC)
- Actually looking more carefully, I think you're right about the video you referred to being better quality. The video I referred to is decent quality but seems to have more motion artifacts I think. Still even with the video I referred to, IMO it still looks to me like the player who starts to the left is 5 and the player who starts to the right and later prostrates himself is 6 [15] [16] [17] [18] [19] Nil Einne (talk) 03:22, 11 July 2018 (UTC)
- See these images [5] [6] [7] [8] [9] [10] [11] [12] [13] [14]. It seems to me that the player to the left who is not very close to the ball is 5. The player to the right who is trying to defend, runs ahead of the ball but then fails to stop it is 6. I'm not sure who the player to the far right is, it seems difficult to make out although I didn't look that hard since it didn't seem that important. Nil Einne (talk)
- @Theurgist: That video seems to be very similar quality to the one uploaded by the Russian user albeit shorted. I don't see another player with number 6. I do see another player with number 5. BTW, most of the time the number is visible the player is not obstructed. Nil Einne (talk) 02:46, 11 July 2018 (UTC)
- @Nil Einne: See the video titled "WC 1962 USSR vs. Colombia 4-4 (03.06.1962) (re-upload)". Its quality is better than most others. The number can't be 6, because number 6 is clearly seen on the back of another Soviet player at the very same moment. It looks like a 5 to me, which would mean the player is Givi Chokheli. The number is hard to see not because of the quality of the video, but because it's visible only for a split second, and even then a Colombian player partly obstructs it. There's also the Russian commentary, but it doesn't seem to be of much help. --Theurgist (talk) 22:58, 10 July 2018 (UTC)
- There is a better quality 9+ minute video on Daily Motion by someone who I think is Russian for the 1962 (03.06) Colombia - USSR - 4-4 World Cup match. I won't link to it directly for WP:Copyvio reasons but it shouldn't be hard to find. The person even created one of those Youtube videos trying to get you to visit their DailyMotion copy. If you look at the real end, there is a better quality and slow-mo version of the final goal. It looks to me like the defender is number 6 who according to the FIFA match report was Leonid Ostrovski Nil Einne (talk) 13:30, 9 July 2018 (UTC)